EV Digest 3822
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: good news for Boise, ID
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Street legal?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: 9" motor inductance D'OH
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by Grant Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) (no subject)
by David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) FW: controller precharge circuit
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 750w scooter
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Ultracaps
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Good deal on an EVT (if it doesn't get "bid up")
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) FW: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Ultracaps
by "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: FW: newbie questions, Diablo conversion +, Hurricanes, EV's and Oil
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) New: Just getting started.
by "Kirk A. Reinkens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: TEVan control smoke
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Cooling System - order of plumbing
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 750w scooter
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > I think you can as you should be able to get
> > around 100/150watt/hr/mile if you pay attention to
> > drag and eff.
>
> Jerry, please pay attention to the units.
>
> 100/150/watt/hr/mile makes absolutely no sense.
> I know what you are trying to say, but a newbie
> might learn something wrong.
So how would you say it?
Last time I checked Wt/hr is a measurement of
power x time for total power and if you take the
amount of power in wt/hrs put into the batts after a
run and divide it by the miles you get the power in
wt/hrs it takes to go a mile. No?
> ...
> > Another way would be using a 13/26amphr high
> > power Hawker battery parallel pack with the
> li-ions
> > with a Zilla-2k hi voltage unit would be vastly
> better
> > than ultra caps.
>
> Vastly? I suppose you can back this up with some
> calculations?
Yes, can you?
>
> > To put it mildly, ultra caps suck. They are
> just
> > hype.
>
> Sorry to disappoint you Jerry, but this claim is
> totally false.
> So the question remains - any data to back up your
> opinion?
> ...
> > Whatever you pick we will be here to help
> you do
> > it right,
> > jerry dycus
>
> Simon,
>
> My advise is if you want to try something, ask
> someone
> who *has done* exactly what you want how well it
> works.
> Ask for data. Ignore just opinions because they will
> range from 100% right to 100% wrong and you will
> waste
> all your effort to separate which is which rather
> than
> trying build things and learn from it.
So true, especially if that someone is selling it.
Show us how?
>
> Start with realistic goal having upgrade to where
> you want to be in mind. First hand experience will
> worth more than all the opinions, not to mention
> that
> you will be far ahead with your project.
Where are ultra caps realistic? Maybe in a drag
racer where you only need 1 -12 sec burst but even
then way too expensive. Batts give you many cycles and
extended power availibility for minutes at a time.
> >
> >>I know I don't get 350 hp from that. but when
> using
> >>large capacitors, can't
> >>I get
> >>a lot more when I need it than 150 hp??
>
> You can get more power from ultracapacitors than you
> need.
> It is only matter of how much space/weight/money do
> you have
> and whether your drive system can take advantage of
> them.
His can? Can UC's deliver 150hp for 1 minute?
>
> I have a sample of mass produced 5kF ultracapacitor
> weighting 850g delivering 10kW peak power,
> 4000A peak discharge current @ 2.5V starting voltage
> -
> I showed it to a few people at Woodburn. So just 12
> capacitors
> will provide your 115kW ("150hp") peak power - for
> fraction
> of second (and if you need it longer you start out
> with
> larger initial capacitance to increase RC constant).
WoW!!! 115kw for a part of a second!!! That's going
to do you a lot of good!
So Victor how many UC's do you need to put out
1,000 amp's for 12 sec?
How much do they cost, weigh?
Do you use electronics to get the power from them?
How much does it cost, weigh?
What do you do if you need another burst of power
again like on any road driving in real life?
Second, how many do you need to start up a hill of
3 degree grade that runs for a mile? Lets call it 400
amps for for 2 minutes?
How much would they weigh, costs with electronics?
How long before Li-ions can recharge them for
another power burst like that?
>
> FYI, my EV is full of ultracaps (I'll report stats
> shortly).
As I said they are only good for people with more
money than brains. It doesn't take a rocket scientist
to figure out.
> Jerry, how about yours?
No way as I have more brains than money!!! I also
have common sense.
Looking forward to you data proving me wrong as
everyone elese is.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Jon Glauser wrote:
> I just got put in charge of the electric car that Boise State
> University has! My chance has finally come to access the EV
> grin! I just gotta get it running first...
Good to hear from you again, Jon. Congratulations on your new position!
> I made up a quick site about it here: jon.silvercheetah.net
Looks pretty good. This appears to be a well-made EV conversion with a
lot of promise.
> The batteries have been sitting for quite a while (about a year).
> They are way out of balance... Should I use a 12V charger to get
> them each charged up first and into something resembling a balanced
> state?
Yes, that's where I would start. If the batteries sat dead for a year,
they are likely to be seriously damaged, if not completely shot.
Since you have an E-meter, it might be worth wiring it as a battery
tester, and do some cycle tests on each 12v battery to see where they
stand. You can use the 12v system of the car itself as a load.
On your website, you mention the lack of (accurate) documentation. One
of the things engineers have to learn is that good documentation is
VITAL! Without it, you are just stumbling around in the dark. In a
project like this, people will be wandering in and out of the program
all the time. So, one of the first orders of business is to document
what you have and how it works! This alone will probably reveal many of
the problems (and fixes).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This guy keeps trying to sell his "adult pedal car" on eBay -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3842499544 - almost $100K
over a year ago to under $40K now.
What I was wondering is how these can be street legal. If electric, they'd have
to fit the nEV class requirements (with no suspension?), if pedalled, they're
not really "cars" but quadricycles, and if gas, it doesn't seem they'd be legal
on any public street. The "mini Auburn" body is nice, but they need a better
frame to sit on.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: 9" motor inductance D'OH
> At what current?
>
> Don't forget that it can drop precipitously if the motor saturates. Not
> that anyone would try with a Zilla or Raptor :) Likewise, the
> resistance can change with temperature (and the inductance, too), but
> the first effect listed is the biggest.
>
> I don't know if these motors saturate, just saying it is good to know
> if they do.
>
> Seth
Like DuHH! Seth....
The real data would be a trace of the motor saturating.
It looks like anyone with more than 500 motor amp runs them deeply into
saturation.
Anyone got a clue at 2000 amps???
I have MY Zilla 2K in hand. A stack of 20 fresh Orbitals.... and two EVs....
to abuse.
After this weekend's look at Robert Salem's Kostov powered VW truck and a
Dyno plot of 408 Footlbs or twist.....and He clearly had WAY less than 2000
amps on the motor... I have a very good renewed respect for the Kostovs.
I have a very good respect for Roberts Vw... I just don't like the shot
of his tailgate leaving me in the Dust... That's hard to take!
I think NEDRA needs another Wheelstanding EV in street clothes....
I gotta build Regs for Ed....and ship two PFC50s... Sigh... back to work....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre,
We're looking for one that has on-demand lockout so
that normally the motor can drive the wheel but the
clutch/freewheel allows the wheel to spin faster than
the motor. But for regen we need to lock the motor to
the wheel.
Does that make any sense? If not, please let me know
so I can clarify further.
Thanks,
grant-
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--- Begin Message ---
Dennis:
Thanks for your support.
It is nice to know that Bob Boyd can bounce. I was in the Bleach box in his
lane when it happened. Damn glad he got up and Walked away, We all clapped.
Well I did but I was all bundled up in Goldie.
As to Rod's time slip, He will publish the entire Time slip later this
afternoon.
With ALL the times and Speeds.
It's rather clear that GP will take 100 with ease... if we can find a tranny
and drive train that can take it. Rod is just not a One step at a time Kinda
Driver....
One of my hunches is... with some practice... I bet we could do it
with just the back drives on.
We might want to bring the timing Back to the Stock advanced bolt holes.
This would lauch better but kill the top a little. Seams we've got top end
to Spare, and No front drive at all.
So... Rod.... Wanna try this at Bremerton or Portland???
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn 2004
> WOODBURN entrants,I am impressed with all your good runs,and can only hope
to
> be half off Bob Boyd when I am 80+++.HE has been a US hero all his
> life......Rod 18.sec and 90+mph,BRACKET RACERS WOULD KILL TOO MIX IT UP
THAT WAY.
> Dennis Berube
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
unsubscribe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> You generally don't use relays alone for measuring voltage;
> the pull-in and drop-out voltages for the coil vary too much.
> There are special relays to do this (meter relays), but I
> doubt that's what you're thinking of. A better solution is to
> use a voltage-sensing part; for example, a zener diode in
> series with the coil.
Lee thanks for your reply. The type of relay you mention here is exactly
what I was talking about - I refered to them as voltage monitoring relays.
The one I found can monitor up to 500Vdc
(http://www.pilz.com/english/products/cmt/monitoring/voltage.htm)
and costs a bit over $100. I know these relays from large machine controls
that e.g. monitor if all three phases of AC voltage are present etc.
I had exactly the same thing in mind that you do with your circuit below
except that I wanted to use the voltage monitoring relay instead of the
Zener diode ... however the zener would be much cheaper. The one thing I
thought of that would be a nice to have is the ability to mutually exclude
the possibility to
try and move the vehicle while the main positive contactor has
not yet closed. As this would result in a fused precharge
relay and burned precharge resistors.
What type of Zener diode would I need to make your circuit
work at about 300V?
Thanks
Markus
>
> > Are there any other simple & reliable circuits in use to
> automate the
> > precharge sequence. I am thinking of a voltage comparison
> circuit that
> > triggers the main contactor once there is no voltage difference
> > between controller and battery pack.
>
> It takes "forever" to get to *no* voltage difference. So, you
> generally just wait long enough to get it most of the way
> there. Once you are within 10-30 volts, the current surge
> when the main contact closes to finish the job won't be
> anything the contacts can't handle.
>
> There are *lots* of precharge circuits. "Simple" can mean
> anything from one part (a resistor across the main contactor)
> to circuits with a dozen or more parts.
>
> In my own EV, I have this circuit (view with fixed-width font
> such as Courier New or FixedSys):
>
> Pack+_____||___________________Controller B+
> | || | |
> | K3 > R1 |_
> | > _|K2
> |___||___| _|
> || |
> K1b _|_/
> //_\ D1
> Pack-_____||___________|_______Controller B-
> ||
> K1a
>
> +12v___/__________/____
> key |_ K2 |_
> _|K1 _|K3
> _| _|
> Gnd________|___________|
>
> K1 is the negative-side main contactor; contact K1a is the
> high-current
> contact and K1b is its low-current auxiliary contact.
> K2 is a small relay with a 120vac coil, which needs 36vdc to draw
> the same coil current (21 ma).
> D1 is a zener diode, chosen to pull K2 in at 115vdc (my EV has a
> 132vdc pack).
> R1 is the precharge resistor; I used a 75w 130v light bulb.
> K3 is the positive-side main contactor; K3 is its contact.
>
> Here's how it works. With the key off, K1-K3 are all off.
> When you turn the key on, K1 pulls in. This connects the
> negative side of the pack to the controller, and precharges
> the positive side thru K1b and R1.
>
> R1 is a light bulb. It has a cold resistance around 16 ohms;
> this charges the controller's input capacitors in less than 1
> second. As the light bulb heats up, its resistance rises to
> around 200 ohms; this self-limits the current so R1 won't
> burn up in case the controller won't precharge.
>
> When the controller input voltage gets up to 115v (17v low
> for my 132v pack), the zener starts to conduct and K2 pulls
> in. This closes the contact of K2, which pulls in main
> contactor K3. The car is now ready to drive.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful,
> committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the
> only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<If you know of a good junk scooter chime in. >>
I wouldn't say my "Chinese Junk" is a "good" scooter, but it's been reasonably
dependable for over 400 miles now. The 20Ah pack runs into the controller's low
voltage limit by 14mi of flat roads, and while it actually can cruise at 30mph
(33mph on the speedo), it accelerates slowly from a stop and takes even longer
to reach top speed...try to cross the average overpass, and it's down to maybe
10mph. The controller, which also has the dc-dc converter inside, has fairly
thick input and output wires, but I had to replace several feet of thinner
wires from there to the outside of the motor. The 500watt PM hub motor is setup
so I couldn't replace the wires passing through the body and to the rather small
brushes, and it would have been nice if they had used the empty space inside for
a second set of brushes. The whole "plastic fantastic" construction made me glad
I'm using an old-school Lambretta for my first "from scratch" conversion
project. Thezero.net has 1500watt hub motors for about what I paid for this
used scooter, but it would be nice to upgrade the motor and get a Scoota-180
controller so some strong regen can replace the weak brakes.
<<If you want pedals there actually is a model that has pedals. I wouldn't
want to pedal very far that way though.>>
Any moped-ist will tell you it's way too inefficient to pedal something that
heavy with a single-speed! I had a Honda PA50 (motor sat inside the wheel,
Vespa-style) and other than pedalling (often sitting up on its kickstand) to
get the motor started, I tried to avoid ever running its little tank out of
gas!
<<Currently $425 on that web site. I have $300 burning a hole in my pocket
for another Etek if you can point me to one.>>
I got a couple from them a while ago on sale for $300 at the Silicon Valley EV
Rally, but supplies have diminished, so economics may have taken effect! Is it
true B&S has stopped having them made and is switching to bldc?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Point well taken. I should mention the ultra cap systems I have seen (2 of
them!), there is a high value resistor across the cap. So yes, they do
require balancing - albeit a extremely simple system.
Victor? Your Feedback?
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 28, 2004 9:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Ultracaps
<snip>
> UltraCap Boost
> --------------
>
> On Victor's page for Ultacaps
> (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm), he cites many
> benefits for using Ultra Caps vs PbA:
>
> - no charging and equalization
> - lifecycles > 500,000
> - DOD to 100%
> - no maintenance
<snip>
Are you _sure_ no equalization? Even for "normal" Electrolytic caps require
equalization. Open up any PC power supply, or 3 phase VFD (for controlling
smaller 3 phase motors in the 1 to 10 hp range). In pc power supplies, you
will likely find (2) 470 uF 200V caps in series (because 2 200V caps are
much cheaper than one 400V cap). You will also find high value balast
resistors in parallel with these caps, to ensure the voltages are balanced
between the two. With out them, if one of the caps is say
376 uf (20% under) and the other cap is say 705 uF (50% higher), than the
smaller cap will charge up to a much higher voltage, possibly exceeding the
200V rating. By placing two high value resistors, one accross each cap, the
resistors will create a voltage divider, trying to force the node between
the two caps to 1/2 the total voltage. This is wasteful in terms of
energy/heat and components, but necessary.
And I believe some electrolytic caps have much shorter life when discharged
to zero volts. I have not read anything about ultracaps, but I would not be
surprised if they would prefer to always have a charge on them.
The more I read about high value caps, the more they seem like just another
type of battery to me.
- Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2491347677
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry:
Energy is expressed in units of Watt-hour or power multiplied by time. The
units are written as W-hr or Watt-hour or Watt*hour.
You expressed the units as Watt/hour. This is power divided by time, which
is incorrect for an expression of energy.
To help you out, take a look at the formulas on my web site under the
Electricity link on my EV Physics web page:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_IndexPhysics.html
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: September 28, 2004 10:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > I think you can as you should be able to get around
> > 100/150watt/hr/mile if you pay attention to drag and eff.
>
> Jerry, please pay attention to the units.
>
> 100/150/watt/hr/mile makes absolutely no sense.
> I know what you are trying to say, but a newbie might learn something
> wrong.
So how would you say it?
Last time I checked Wt/hr is a measurement of power x time for total
power and if you take the amount of power in wt/hrs put into the batts after
a run and divide it by the miles you get the power in wt/hrs it takes to go
a mile. No?
> ...
> > Another way would be using a 13/26amphr high power Hawker
> > battery parallel pack with the
> li-ions
> > with a Zilla-2k hi voltage unit would be vastly
> better
> > than ultra caps.
>
> Vastly? I suppose you can back this up with some calculations?
Yes, can you?
>
> > To put it mildly, ultra caps suck. They are
> just
> > hype.
>
> Sorry to disappoint you Jerry, but this claim is totally false.
> So the question remains - any data to back up your opinion?
> ...
> > Whatever you pick we will be here to help
> you do
> > it right,
> > jerry dycus
>
> Simon,
>
> My advise is if you want to try something, ask someone who *has done*
> exactly what you want how well it works.
> Ask for data. Ignore just opinions because they will range from 100%
> right to 100% wrong and you will waste all your effort to separate
> which is which rather than trying build things and learn from it.
So true, especially if that someone is selling it.
Show us how?
>
> Start with realistic goal having upgrade to where you want to be in
> mind. First hand experience will worth more than all the opinions, not
> to mention that you will be far ahead with your project.
Where are ultra caps realistic? Maybe in a drag racer where you only
need 1 -12 sec burst but even then way too expensive. Batts give you many
cycles and extended power availibility for minutes at a time.
> >
> >>I know I don't get 350 hp from that. but when
> using
> >>large capacitors, can't
> >>I get
> >>a lot more when I need it than 150 hp??
>
> You can get more power from ultracapacitors than you need.
> It is only matter of how much space/weight/money do you have and
> whether your drive system can take advantage of them.
His can? Can UC's deliver 150hp for 1 minute?
>
> I have a sample of mass produced 5kF ultracapacitor weighting 850g
> delivering 10kW peak power, 4000A peak discharge current @ 2.5V
> starting voltage
> -
> I showed it to a few people at Woodburn. So just 12 capacitors will
> provide your 115kW ("150hp") peak power - for fraction of second (and
> if you need it longer you start out with larger initial capacitance to
> increase RC constant).
WoW!!! 115kw for a part of a second!!! That's going to do you a lot of
good!
So Victor how many UC's do you need to put out 1,000 amp's for 12 sec?
How much do they cost, weigh?
Do you use electronics to get the power from them?
How much does it cost, weigh?
What do you do if you need another burst of power again like on any road
driving in real life?
Second, how many do you need to start up a hill of
3 degree grade that runs for a mile? Lets call it 400 amps for for 2
minutes?
How much would they weigh, costs with electronics?
How long before Li-ions can recharge them for another power burst like
that?
>
> FYI, my EV is full of ultracaps (I'll report stats shortly).
As I said they are only good for people with more money than brains. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.
> Jerry, how about yours?
No way as I have more brains than money!!! I also have common sense.
Looking forward to you data proving me wrong as everyone elese is.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must have missed the locking part the first time.
I do not think I have ever seen anything like that that could be engaged and
disengaged while in motion. Most of the applications I have seen that need
to freewheel or be locked up just use a regular clutch.
Essentially what you are asking for is a regular clutch in parallel with the
overrunning clutch.
So could you not just use a regular clutch with the control system set to
only engage it when the operator wants to accelerate or decelerate?
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Grant Young
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
> Andre,
>
> We're looking for one that has on-demand lockout so
> that normally the motor can drive the wheel but the
> clutch/freewheel allows the wheel to spin faster than
> the motor. But for regen we need to lock the motor to
> the wheel.
>
> Does that make any sense? If not, please let me know
> so I can clarify further.
>
> Thanks,
>
> grant-
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Simon and All,
--- Simon Sandvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Victor.
> Ok people what should I go with?
> Li-Ions and Ultracaps or Li-Ions and lead acids?
> What about the difference in weight?
It will be interesting the numbers Victor comes up
with. I believe they will show the uselessness of UC's
for an EV on the road in the real world.
For the road you need multipile and prolonged
power surges that UC's can't handle. If you only
needed them for a sec or two, they would be costly but
cool, but real world EV power needs don't stick to
very short bursts.
Notice Victor is the only one using them in a road
EV I know about and he just annouced it recently. He
also uses them in a low power AC system, not a high
power unit like you are going for.
>
> It looks like the best alternative would be to use
> 62x TS (223V)
> and 18x Exides/Optimas(216V).
> Am I right?
The problem with Orbitals for you is keeping the
weight down to your goals, otherwise they are quite
good in the power department, in fact they can't be
beat by anything I know of and put UC's to shame.
That's why I was talking about Hawker's, to save
weight.
Optima YT are not what they use to be after they
were bought out so would go with the Orbitals which
put out more power anyway for the same weight.
One way to save weight is go to a lower voltage
system like the top voltage of the low voltage version
of the Zilla. Then get your range with li-ions.
At your weight this will still give you plenty of
power while keeping your weight and costs down
compared with the higher voltage version. Hawker 26
amphr batts would save weight even more at the cost of
some power.
As your pervious post about trans, with the Zilla
the torque is so high it destroy's them quickly. Since
the torque is high, you can go direct drive straight
to the diff, saving weight, costs of the trans,
adaptor, clutch not to mention the hassle of making
all them to work together. All production EV's go the
direct drive route.
I see no reason for you to go the high tech
chassis route as kit cars are well known and much
better suited to EV's as much lighter than the ICE
conversions giving more performance for the same
power.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> / Simon
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVers,
More belated news about ProEV's Kokam powered Electric Imp (I have to keep
practicing that phrase so it will roll off my tongue smoothly during victory
circle interviews<G>).
We have run the car on the track!
Now, the car was no way ready for this track expedition. As a professional
race team, we do not want race the car until we have it set up to win.
Kokam, on the other hand, has a great battery that they want the world to
see now!
They forced our hand by sending a TV crew from the Korea National
Broadcasting. If they were going to travel all the way from Korea to film
the Electric Imp in action, we needed to show them a car that could drive.
It almost didn't happen! We had to work some late nights. And late nights
mean mistakes. While we didn't have any 'Plasma Boy' caliber pyrotechnics,
we did manage to put our PFC50 charger out of action. Note to self: When
charging, positive to positive, negative to negative, not visa-versa.
Now how were we going to run a race weekend on a ¼ charged battery pack?
We decided not to sweat the details and loaded up the racecar. We got to
Moroso Motorsports Park in West Palm Beach, Florida at the end of Friday
test day. The staff was super accommodating and agreed to hold the track
open for us long enough to film a couple of laps.
Internationally renowned race driver James Lee drove the film crew's rental
van while the camera guy filmed out the back and the Electric Imp raceed
behind. We do some fly-bys and curb hopping. The film crew seemed pretty
ecstatic. Combined with the footage that they had filmed at the race shop,
they felt they had the makings of a good program.
Wow, what a relief. We were very happy that, despite technical obstacles and
a short time line, we were able to help Kokam and the Korean Broadcasting TV
crew.
Now, we are at the race track. There is a race tomorrow. We have less the a
quarter charge, but..
To be continued
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At what resistance would balancing not be required?
The 2600F uCaps have 7 milli-ohms...
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:18 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 'Victor Tikhonov'
Subject: RE: Ultracaps
Point well taken. I should mention the ultra cap systems I have seen (2
of
them!), there is a high value resistor across the cap. So yes, they do
require balancing - albeit a extremely simple system.
Victor? Your Feedback?
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 28, 2004 9:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Ultracaps
<snip>
> UltraCap Boost
> --------------
>
> On Victor's page for Ultacaps
> (http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm), he cites many
> benefits for using Ultra Caps vs PbA:
>
> - no charging and equalization
> - lifecycles > 500,000
> - DOD to 100%
> - no maintenance
<snip>
Are you _sure_ no equalization? Even for "normal" Electrolytic caps
require
equalization. Open up any PC power supply, or 3 phase VFD (for
controlling
smaller 3 phase motors in the 1 to 10 hp range). In pc power supplies,
you
will likely find (2) 470 uF 200V caps in series (because 2 200V caps are
much cheaper than one 400V cap). You will also find high value balast
resistors in parallel with these caps, to ensure the voltages are
balanced
between the two. With out them, if one of the caps is say
376 uf (20% under) and the other cap is say 705 uF (50% higher), than
the
smaller cap will charge up to a much higher voltage, possibly exceeding
the
200V rating. By placing two high value resistors, one accross each cap,
the
resistors will create a voltage divider, trying to force the node
between
the two caps to 1/2 the total voltage. This is wasteful in terms of
energy/heat and components, but necessary.
And I believe some electrolytic caps have much shorter life when
discharged
to zero volts. I have not read anything about ultracaps, but I would
not be
surprised if they would prefer to always have a charge on them.
The more I read about high value caps, the more they seem like just
another
type of battery to me.
- Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I read on Victor's web site that he designed his UltraCap system to
provide 10-second bursts of power. He put in enough UltraCaps so that they
would drop to 1/2 of their full voltage during that interval.
Victor, am I remembering that correctly?
Bill Dennis
> It will be interesting the numbers Victor comes up
>with. I believe they will show the uselessness of UC's
>for an EV on the road in the real world.
> For the road you need multipile and prolonged
>power surges that UC's can't handle. If you only
>needed them for a sec or two, they would be costly but
>cool, but real world EV power needs don't stick to
>very short bursts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the good info (again), Doug. I have a question about your
generator--actually, generators in EVs in general. Does the generator hook
up to the battery pack looking like just another power source in parallel?
If so, let's say someone installs a 10kW generator. If the car is drawing
only 9kW of power, does 9kW go into the motor, and the other 1kW go into
charging the battery pack?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry:
>
> Energy is expressed in units of Watt-hour or power
> multiplied by time. The
> units are written as W-hr or Watt-hour or Watt*hour.
>
> You expressed the units as Watt/hour. This is power
> divided by time, which
> is incorrect for an expression of energy.
Thanks for the correction, I've always took / as
per but you are right. Of course Victor could have
just said that and avoided another post. It's been a
very long while since I've been in school!
I'm having to write fast because my power is out
for more than 30 hrs now and it doesn't look like it
will be restored quickly as so many other places are
still without power around the SE US making resources
thin.
But the EV's I have are still supplying me with
lights, TV, computer, refrig and most important, fans.
Mostly all are DC from my sailboating days but have an
inverter for the computer, circular saw to cut up the
tree limbs that fell.
Haven't had to use the E-woody's batts yet as
saving them in case I need to go somewhere, instead
using the batts from my 3 trikes. Luckily I have EV's
in depth!! My E-woody's DC gens v belt died so have to
get another one.
Charging my Ni-cads by running my fan and 6 vdc
of batts off of a 12v batt. The fan drew too much on
12 v's so split my nicad cells into 6 v to run it. But
charging was hard because I only had 12v to ork with
as I didn't want to run the inverter just to charge
them but the fan charging system is working fine.
Jeanne was worse than Frances with just
a little higher winds but they stayed much longer, 6
to 7 hrs vs 2 hrs with Frances in Tampa.
It hit worse of all right on Steve Clunn again a
second time in Ft Pierce on the east coast, he's had
some really bad luck, hope he's ok..
Oil's over $50 BBL again overnight even quicker
than I predicted last winter. Luckily we all have Ev's
with the most secure fuel around, electricity!! All
those laughing at our EV's aren't laughing anymore!!
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> To help you out, take a look at the formulas on my
> web site under the
> Electricity link on my EV Physics web page:
>
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_IndexPhysics.html
>
>
>
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman said: "It's rather clear that GP will take 100 with ease... if
we can find a tranny and drive train that can take it. Rod is just not a One
step at a time Kinda Driver.... One of my hunches is... with some
practice... I bet we could do it with just the back drives on."
This is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Otmar's California Poppie
can't do it with the same motors, same rear drive ratio, same controller
only turned up where it should be, and even the same batteries and same
battery voltage. The main difference is that "Gone Postal" weighs much, much
more and has the aerodynamics of a brick. I've driven just the back drive
and I know what a dog slow car feels like. "Gone Postal" is effective
because of the all wheel drive.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Woodburn 2004
Dennis:
Thanks for your support.
It is nice to know that Bob Boyd can bounce. I was in the Bleach box in
his
lane when it happened. Damn glad he got up and Walked away, We all
clapped.
Well I did but I was all bundled up in Goldie.
As to Rod's time slip, He will publish the entire Time slip later this
afternoon.
With ALL the times and Speeds.
It's rather clear that GP will take 100 with ease... if we can find a
tranny
and drive train that can take it. Rod is just not a One step at a time
Kinda
Driver....
One of my hunches is... with some practice... I bet we could do it
with just the back drives on.
We might want to bring the timing Back to the Stock advanced bolt holes.
This would lauch better but kill the top a little. Seams we've got top end
to Spare, and No front drive at all.
So... Rod.... Wanna try this at Bremerton or Portland???
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn 2004
WOODBURN entrants,I am impressed with all your good runs,and can only
hope
to
be half off Bob Boyd when I am 80+++.HE has been a US hero all his
life......Rod 18.sec and 90+mph,BRACKET RACERS WOULD KILL TOO MIX IT UP
THAT WAY.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone!
I'm just getting started in Spokane, WA and would like to begin with a
little feedback on my early questions? Thanks in advance for your advice.
1. Are there any folks in Spokane who have done their own conversions that
they would be willing to let me see first hand?
2. I'm hoping to combine two of my interests in my new project. A 1961-1967
Ford Econoline 5-window Pickup and an electric vehicle conversion. Using
some of the advice garnered from the frequently referenced books I thought
converting a vehicle I would want to drive and a light pickup (~Ford Ranger
curb/GVW) would be fun and useful for me. Has anyone seen this done before?
3. As a 2-4 year project, I'm not sure how best to decide (although I'll
keep reading) on which to use AC/DC drive system. My commute is in the 25-45
mile range typically with a steeper-shorter downhill I can skirt on the
return trip for a longer-slower uphill. I won't say $$ isn't important, but
I'm willing to be patient for the right performance. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Kirk - Spokane, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Allen wrote:
You might consider replacing the electrolytic caps while you are in
there, as they probably have higher ESR now, which could have
contributed to your failure?
Unfortunately, I don't know of any better modules that are avaulable now
in that size. Most of the stuff I have seen is about 3x as wide. eBay
sometime has NOS stuff in INT-A-Pak sizes though.
Seth
On Sep 25, 2004, at 11:40 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
That was a IRGTI200F06, forgot a zero.
..Or more drastic upgrade. You know what I mean.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Finally just picked up the drive, controller and parts from Victor - ready
to send them to the machinist for construction of the adapter plate.
I am just diagramming the cooling system plumbing, and I have the components
in the following order:
Start at Reservoir
to Pump
to Radiator
to Inverter
to Battery charger (if I get a water cooled unit)
to Drive
to Reservoir.
Does this seem appropriate? The highest point in the system will be the
inverter, as it has a air purge valve. A schematic is up on my web site at:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CoolingSystem.html
thanks
Don
Don,
What you suggested will work OK. Critical points to remember:
- cooled water enters inverter first and then the motor, not the
other way around
- the filling reservoir should be the highest point if you don't
want water to spill as soon as you take the cover off. If you
will have your custom radiator or manage to mount inverter such
that it is lower than the radiator cap, you don't need external
reservoir at all - just use radiator cap. I couldn't do that
because the top of my radiator is lower than inverter and tubing
to the charger, so as soon as radiator cap is off, the water
runs out.
You are absolutely right by not pumping the water into the
reservoir, but rather pumping it out of it and letting
it fill freely from the return inlet. Put a nylon mesh into
reservoir which will force any incoming bubbles to surface
and you don't get air into the system.
Inverter will purge the air with the side valve as long as
the valve is above inverter's fittings, not above everything
else in your car. If you initially force water in the system
with garden hose and thus displace all the air that way, there
is no need to purge inverter with the key.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I beg to differ that a hot little conversion or even using a welded frame
can't be done for less than 2k. There is someone in Colorado selling El
Choppers complete for around 1300 bucks. I am looking for the contact
number or link. I have seen it on one of the for sale lists. I know I can
built it for about 700. No scrounging required. The Jackel is a lot more
money but doesn't seem to be much different from El Chopper. Maybe a little
tougher. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: 750w scooter
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:23:13 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Here is what can be done to reduce the price.
> >> 3 - 40 ah Hawker Genesis 12 volt batteries - $80 ea
> >No help here unless you get some surplus batteries from Surplus store
near
> >LA the orange ones. I think 40 bucks each
> >
> >> 1 - 450 amp, 48 volt AXE controller - ~$400
> >Altrax might make a cheaper controller (use less amps)
> >> 1 - ETEK motor - $400.
> >buy your ETEK at thezero.net for 300 dollars
>
> Currently $425 on that web site. I have $300 burning a hole in my pocket
> for another Etek if you can point me to one.
>
> >> 1 - 400 amp continuous duty contactor - $100*
> >Wire loop with a big Anderson connector as key, emergency disconnect &
> >contactor
>
> Ah, no. Not for a 2-wheeled vehicle that powerful. I want a kill switch
> right under my thumb if the controller ever shorts out. Or for other
> more minor emergencies. Like the time I was trying to slo-mo wheelie my
> GoBig's front wheel onto a trailer and it got away from me. I had one arm
> on the throttle twisted almost to dislocation as the thing stomped
> bouncing circles around me. I finally managed to hit the kill switch
> before it broke my arm or I had to let go and skin up all that nice
> fiberglass.
>
> <rest snipped>
>
> Of course one can build a scooter cheaper by scrounging. My post was to
> illustrate what it would cost to build a new scooter for sale to someone
> else and to show why a good performing Escoot can't be had for under a
> kilobuck.
>
> BTW, those orange Hawkers (SBS series I think) do lousy on a powerful
> scooter. BTDT. To much internal impedance. Not designed for that kind
> of discharge rate. OK for a Currie but not OK for a scooter that can run
> close to 50 mph on level ground AND have enough torque to climb moderate
> hills.
>
> John
> >> 1 - 12 volt converter - $100
> >Get some cheap bike lights. Or get a 35w DC/DC from Excess Solutions for
5
> >bucks.
> >
> >> misc lights, switches, etc - ~$100.
> >forget this use excess solutions again
> >> Not absolutely necessary but IMHO, vital
> >> 1 - E-meter - $200.
> >Use a volt meter.
> >>
> >> * my GoBig came with one of those automotive solenoid-type contactors.
> >The
> >> contacts literally melted out of the plastic bushings within a week.
This
> >is
> >> a safety device so no messing around with the cheap stuff here.
> >The Anderson connector loop idea is hard to beat for safety or cost.
> >>
> >> Even accounting for the discounts OEMs get on these parts, there isn't
> >> anywhere near enough room to account for labor and overhead to keep
such a
> >> scoot below probably $2000.
> >>
> >> I'd just recommend a good used gas scooter and be done with it.
> >>
> >> John
> >> ---
> >> John De Armond
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> >> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >>
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
