EV Digest 3830
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) ProEV's Imp on track! (part 3)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DO NOT BURN ULTRACAPs !!!!!!!!
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Current Eliminator News...New major sponsor!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Exploding caps
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Heater Cored
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Like engineers discussing EVs
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Orbital "real life" A-hrs?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT Story Re: Exploding caps
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fw: EDTA Recognizes the State of Florida as "E-Visionary"
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) ADC Motors: C-Face?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Non-Polarized ultracaps
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fw: EDTA Recognizes the State of Florida as "E-Visionary"
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ADC Motors: C-Face?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The first EV sports car
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Do Not Burn UltraCaps!!!!!!!!-failure modes etc
by mark ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Orbital "real life" A-hrs? What about 13Ah hawkers?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Ultracapap Polarity
by mark ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Orbital "real life" A-hrs? What about 13Ah hawkers?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: ADC Motors: C-Face?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ADC Motors: C-Face?
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: ADC Motors: C-Face?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Heater Cored
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: ADC Motors: C-Face?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is a continuation of the write up of our road racing adventures back in
July.
At 6:45 Sunday morning, the voltage is 333 or what we guess is about 65%
charge. By race time is has rising to 338 volts. Best guess 70% charge.
We arrange to start from pit lane. The rest of the cars will do a warm up
lap and then take the green. Our plan is to come out behind them, do a slow
lap to get a clear track and then do three hot laps.
Everything is working fine. The pack thunders by and we are waved out onto
the track. I am light on the throttle, keeping the amps below 150. I carry
speed in the corners and the tires come in quickly. I get a little too
enthusiastic through the chicane and use too much of the exit curb. It
launches me straight, and to the outside of the tarmac. I catch the car.
Defiantly, not the fast line through this corner.
Just before turn 9, I look ahead to make sure I will have a clear run. Thru
turn 10, I am hard on it.
The car accelerates and accelerates. It hits 5,600 rpm and keeps on going.
It
reaches 6,315 RPM. I lift a little early to get my braking right.
Regen current is 280 amps and voltage rises a little to 343 volts (3.89 per
cell). This means around 156 lbf-ft of retardations by regen. I am trying to
go to full brake with the regen and then modulate the friction brake pedal
to give me the total slowing that I need. Looking at the data trace, I seem
to have modulate both. Total time regenning 4.6 seconds. The car slows
rapidly and the transition through turn in is smooth.
I feed on the throttle and back to 600 amps quickly. 4,852 rpm before turn
3.
Again full regen 240 amps taper off as I modulate for 2.7 seconds.
The turn 3 and 4 complex is a fairly long double apex corner. Half way
through, the car is filling with white smoke. This is not good. I exit the
corner and move off the racing line. The smoke clears a little. The turn 5
flag station does not really have a good place to pull off close enough for
the workers to get an extinguisher on the car quickly. As I use regen to
slow the
car for turn 5, I get some more smoke. I keep going, torn between mashing
the pedal to get there and my suspicion that this will only make the problem
worst.
I pull off just beyond the corner worker station at turn 6. The smoke
immediately dissipates. I wait with my hand ready on the built in fire
extinguisher. No more smoke.
I signal OK to the corner workers and pull further off track. I sit and let
the car cool. I wait until the all the racecars pass me twice, then drive
quickly back to the pits. Everything works fine including regen. No more
smoke appears but the smell remains. The batteries read 42 degree C, up from
26.6 C starting temp but still below the 60 degree C maximum recommended by
Kokam.
First thing the crew checks is the tires for rub. That could give us white
smoke when cornering but the smoke didn't smell right. We speak with Dr. Kim
from Kokam and he assures us that if the batteries were off gassing, the
smell would be very unpleasant. This is a relief, but we still need to find
what was smoking.
What about the 'bundling' tape. We used lots of it as we assembled the car.
It is a silver plastic tape that can be easily pulled off without leaving
residue. This makes it incredibly convenient. What would happen to it if
something beneath it got hot?
We plug in a soldering iron and put some tape on it. It melts producing a
faint white smoke. It smells a lot like the smoke inside the car. The whole
crew crowds around sniffing the soldering iron. I'm not sure this is going
to help our reputation any.
The smoke seemed to have come from the behind the seat. If so, it will
require removing the inverter before we can pull the battery cover and see.
There is only a little time before the next race, so we decide not to push
our luck. There will be other weekends.
Kw-hrs used: 3.48. warm up lap 2.25 miles at .225 = .506. Hot lap 2.25 used
2.97 = 1.32 kw-hr per mile.
And so ends the Electric Imp's soft debut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
If this is a confirmed failure mode [could we have a link to a MSDS or
something?], it would seem to suggest venting to the outside and no possible
air intermix with cabin is a basic safety requirement for ultracaps.
S.
I've exploded small electrolytic capacitors before when I accidentally
had the wrong polarity "what's the hissing sound.... BANG!"
I've also been exposed to the electrolyte vapor that it put off.
I would definitely not want these much larger capacitors in an open box
or vented anywhere but away from humans.
--
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 9/28/04 9:55:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Dennis, Thanks for finally coming out of the closet. Now we are all
waiting for the details.
Roderick >>
The details will come out in my sponsors press release,coming soon. Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I've exploded small electrolytic capacitors before when I accidentally
> had the wrong polarity "what's the hissing sound.... BANG!"
> I've also been exposed to the electrolyte vapor that it put off.
> I would definitely not want these much larger capacitors in an open box
> or vented anywhere but away from humans.
This reminds me: I had the topmost cap on the daughter board of a Uni-8/12V
controller explode, sending some kind of white fluff everywhere - seems I was
not careful enough about keeping other conductors away (typically clumsy for
me)! There is also a melted IC on it. The peak rating is near 100A, but the
"event" happened as soon as it was powered up, so I don't think it was a
amperage problem.
4QD (4QD.co.uk) said it's about $20 for a new daughter board, but since it only
needs 2 common components, if anyone on the list wants to play with this, let
me know (I cannot do this kind of tiny soldering). The power components are
probably fine, and you can use this controller up to 36V with little more than
a relay resistor added in (4QD is usually willing to give you the specs on
parts needing replacement by end-users).
And does anyone have similar small regen controllers for sale?
Russell
cowtown @ spamcop.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A salesman at the show (EDTA Orlando) last week in the Maxwell booth (I
forget his name) mentioned that when I brought it up. He went further to say
that they can be installed either way at the factory and charged in either
direction. (Maybe he was just kidding.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
>
> Um.. not the ones *I* have. They care a *whole lot* if they're reversed,
> like any electrolytic cap
>
> S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:54 AM
> Subject: Non-Polarized ultracaps
>
>
> > I was told by Maxwell that ultracaps are non-polarized and don't care if
> > they are reversed.
> > Mark
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:46 AM
> > Subject: Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
> >
> >
> > > >> The problem is caused because each cell has a different
capacitance.
> > > >> Suppose there is a 20% difference between the cells. You start with
> > > >> them all fully charged, and apply a high discharge current. The
> > > >> lowest-capacitance cell will go dead when the rest still have 20%.
> > > >> Then it goes negative (at high current). This destroys the
capacitor.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reverse situation happens while charging at high rates. The
> > > >> lowest-capacitance cell reaches its max voltage limit 20% before
the
> > > >> rest, and fails.
> > >
> > > Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > > > Lee, you are missing the fact that the caps will never be discharged
> > > > deeper than 50%-60% DOD, they are in parallel with LiIons.
> > >
> > > I understand. I was just giving an example of what would happen if you
> > > let your capacitors discharge too far. In your case, you limit the
depth
> > > of discharge of the capacitors. This is safe, but as you pointed out
> > > does not make the best use of their capability.
> > >
> > > My point was that a more aggressive balancing scheme could let you
> > > safely charge and discharge the capacitors more without risk.
> > >
> > > > Different leakages will cause unrecoverable imbalance throughout
> > > > the day, but the leakage current is milliamps, so due to that
> > > > overall imbalance in one day is totally unmeasurable.
> > >
> > > Quite true; however, the leakage current is not constant; it is
> > > drastically affected by temperature. I don't know what it is for your
> > > ultracapacitors, but for the Panasonic parts I used, it could easily
go
> > > up 100:1 at high temperatures.
> > > --
> > > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> > > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> > > has!" -- Margaret Mead
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I cored my heater core, and it worked out great! Last night I took apart
the dash and removed the heater core out of my Geo Metro. Since the ceramic
heater I purchased from KTA comes with its own plastic casing, I had an
idea. Firing up the jig saw, I cut out the finned radiator middle part of
the Metro's old core. Then I screwed a 7/8-inch plastic spacer onto two
sides of the KTA casing and popped the new unit back into the middle of the
old core where I'd just removed the radiator part. It made a nice, tight
fit, and I screwed it in place then slid the whole unit right back into the
ductwork where it had come from.
I hope everything on my conversion works out this perfectly. :)
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That balloon thing was very clever or elegantly simple. Mention it to Curtis
etc. and see what they say. Probably would have to get a latex or balloon
that wouldn't dry-rot over time. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:18:03 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > It is common to open a Curtis controller for repair, and find
> > significant amounts of water inside. The scenario goes like this: The
> > case develops a crack. As the controller gets hot and later cools, the
> > air inside expands and contracts. So the case "inhales" and "exhales"
> > outside air through the cracks. The air pulled in contains water. This
> > water condenses inside, and causes shorts and corrosion.
>
> I experienced this with my Curtis 7401-1221B. The first time I opened
> it it was "as new" and the seal appeared intact. But there was water
> in there, and worse, corrosion on the control PCB.
>
> After several attempts at finding an intermittant fault (which I think
> had been caused by the moisture), I realised that I wasn't able to
> make it watertight either, so in the end I made a modification - in
> the space between the bus bars at the top, I drilled a hole through
> the potting compound and stuck a short length of plastic tube through.
> On the inside, I fastened a small air baloon to the end of the tube.
> Then I sealed up the controller as usual with lots of RTV sealant. As
> far as I can tell this works in removing the pressure differential and
> has successfully kept the water out for 2 or 3 years since.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to worry Steve,
his presentation was flawed from the start because he forgot to mention
the connection between aspherical influctance and it's effect on the
anti-reversing dihedrals of the roller bearings.......
:-):-):-)
----- Original Message -----
SO... Was that video disertation an early "April Fools" Joke, or
is all that stuff he was talking about, just over my (simlple
technician's) head?? i.e. one would have to go back for his/her
Doctorate Disertation in Power Factor Correction - or something....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've gotten .28 to .32 Kwhr from them with a 750 watt load and 100 amp
rechrarges.
The scatter was from .25 to .34, with the average of.30.
Just a bit smaller and MUCH tighter spread than Optima Yellow tops.
They are keepers.
John Wayland says there is a higher selfdischarge, but it's just a bit
lower voltage after some stand by time.
I am not find much if any selfdischarge.
I don't have mine in cycle life use yet. But so far I am Very happy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 4:05 AM
Subject: Orbital "real life" A-hrs?
> Now that folks have been using the Excide 34xd's for a little while,
> what is the real-life capacity looking like?
>
> The spec sheet says 50 A-hrs, so 80% DOD would be 40 A-hrs. Is this
> number realistic?
>
>
>
> PS My big talk a while ago of a new truck hasn't happened, but I still
> lurk and the old truck keeps going, except the flooded's are at the end
> of their life. So plan for now is to try some AGMs and a Zilla 1K for a
> shorter but more fun range.
>
> --
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I fixed electronics years ago (in the Navy), you'd grab a piece of
broken gear, troubleshoot it, and (if necessary) order replacement
parts. Well, parts took a while to get, so you'd put it back on the
shelf, update it's card (saying what you did), and worked on something
else. The status card was there so that someone else could grab the
equipment and continue working on it if you weren't available to work on it.
So I was working on a very old spectrum analyzer, and it had a bad
paper-cased electrolytic cap in it's power supply. It was about 6"
long, and 2" around, with a rather high voltage rating.
Unfortunately, some people would simply look for items whose parts had
arrived, install the parts, and claim to have "fixed" the item when it
was really someone else who had done the hard part (troubleshooting).
This was called "cherry-picking".
Well, there was this one person, two ranks above me (I was E4, she was
E6) who was very nasty towards me, always basically being a total
b*tch. She wasn't my supervisor, but still out-ranked me. When the cap
came in, she grabbed the spectrum analyzer and part off the shelf, and
proceeded to install it. When powered, the capacitor popped, filling
the entire shop with a horrible fish-like smell / smoke, requiring that
everyone go outside for a while so that the shop could air out.
Outside, she proceeded to berate me (in front of everyone) about my
troubleshooting skills, saying how I should have warned the next
technician (on the card) that the capacitor might not fix the problem,
and of the danger, etc, etc.
When we all went back in, I wandered over and looked at the equipment.
She had installed the capacitor BACKWARDS. I pointed this out very
loudly, making sure everyone heard. She became very pale, and her mouth
became a very thin line, and a vein kinda popped out of her forehead.
She then stomped out.
FWIW, when I finally got another capacitor installed (correctly), the
unit worked fine. The only problem was the power supply ripple.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've exploded small electrolytic capacitors before when I accidentally
had the wrong polarity "what's the hissing sound.... BANG!"
I've also been exposed to the electrolyte vapor that it put off.
I would definitely not want these much larger capacitors in an open box
or vented anywhere but away from humans.
This reminds me: I had the topmost cap on the daughter board of a Uni-8/12V
controller explode, sending some kind of white fluff everywhere - seems I was
not careful enough about keeping other conductors away (typically clumsy for
me)! There is also a melted IC on it. The peak rating is near 100A, but the
"event" happened as soon as it was powered up, so I don't think it was a
amperage problem.
4QD (4QD.co.uk) said it's about $20 for a new daughter board, but since it only
needs 2 common components, if anyone on the list wants to play with this, let
me know (I cannot do this kind of tiny soldering). The power components are
probably fine, and you can use this controller up to 36V with little more than
a relay resistor added in (4QD is usually willing to give you the specs on
parts needing replacement by end-users).
And does anyone have similar small regen controllers for sale?
Russell
cowtown @ spamcop.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> EDTA is an international association representing the development, production and
> use of > battery, hybrid and fuel cell electric drive technologies and supporting
> infrastructure.
> EDTA serves as the central source of information on all of the technical, market and
> policy issues surrounding the emergence of electric drive, and serves as the
> representative of the Americas to the World Electric Vehicle Association (WEVA). For
> more information about EDTA, visit www.electricdrive.org or call 202.408.0774.
Interesting.
A news page full of tales of good deeds done by the President, Jeb
Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger. And lots of nice blurring of the
lines between electric vehicles and "electric drive" vehicles. (i.e.
petrol ones)
They claim:
[..]
Electric drive technologies are quite a viable industry, and EDTA,
through its active membership, is able to have a positive impact on
Capitol Hill. EDTA members have a successful record of advocating for
programs and policies at the federal level, including consumer-based
tax incentives for battery, hybrid and fuel cell vehicles and
supporting infrastructure; a $25 million program to demonstrate spent
EV batteries in stationary, secondary applications; a $200 million
program to provide grants to Clean Cities, and flexibility options for
fleets that are mandated by the Energy Policy Act of 1992 to acquire
increasing percentages of alternative fuel vehicles.
[..]
Of course they don't mention that the companies supplying the
"officers" of this organisation sucessfully squashed CARB's EV
mandate, and have actively crushed working EVs. Like GM and Ford.
Perhaps I'm being unfair or cynical, but it's the first I hear of this
organisation, and they are endorsing *Florida* as a leading example
of environmental concience?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should mention that mine are engineering samples, made by a company other
than Maxwelland that wonderous things may have happened since they were
developed - certainly wonderous things have happened in the power density
department. If the data sheet says they work either direction, I believe it.
But I wouldn't try it based on the advice of a salesperson.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
> A salesman at the show (EDTA Orlando) last week in the Maxwell booth (I
> forget his name) mentioned that when I brought it up. He went further to
say
> that they can be installed either way at the factory and charged in either
> direction. (Maybe he was just kidding.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
>
>
> >
> > Um.. not the ones *I* have. They care a *whole lot* if they're reversed,
> > like any electrolytic cap
> >
> > S.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:54 AM
> > Subject: Non-Polarized ultracaps
> >
> >
> > > I was told by Maxwell that ultracaps are non-polarized and don't care
if
> > > they are reversed.
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:46 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
> > >
> > >
> > > > >> The problem is caused because each cell has a different
> capacitance.
> > > > >> Suppose there is a 20% difference between the cells. You start
with
> > > > >> them all fully charged, and apply a high discharge current. The
> > > > >> lowest-capacitance cell will go dead when the rest still have
20%.
> > > > >> Then it goes negative (at high current). This destroys the
> capacitor.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The reverse situation happens while charging at high rates. The
> > > > >> lowest-capacitance cell reaches its max voltage limit 20% before
> the
> > > > >> rest, and fails.
> > > >
> > > > Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > > > > Lee, you are missing the fact that the caps will never be
discharged
> > > > > deeper than 50%-60% DOD, they are in parallel with LiIons.
> > > >
> > > > I understand. I was just giving an example of what would happen if
you
> > > > let your capacitors discharge too far. In your case, you limit the
> depth
> > > > of discharge of the capacitors. This is safe, but as you pointed out
> > > > does not make the best use of their capability.
> > > >
> > > > My point was that a more aggressive balancing scheme could let you
> > > > safely charge and discharge the capacitors more without risk.
> > > >
> > > > > Different leakages will cause unrecoverable imbalance throughout
> > > > > the day, but the leakage current is milliamps, so due to that
> > > > > overall imbalance in one day is totally unmeasurable.
> > > >
> > > > Quite true; however, the leakage current is not constant; it is
> > > > drastically affected by temperature. I don't know what it is for
your
> > > > ultracapacitors, but for the Panasonic parts I used, it could easily
> go
> > > > up 100:1 at high temperatures.
> > > > --
> > > > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> > > > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> > > > has!" -- Margaret Mead
> > > > --
> > > > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are ADC motors c-face mountable?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may be that the initial charge may be done in either direction. But can
they be frequently reversed after that?
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Hanson
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:03 AM
To: Jon "Sheer" Pullen
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
> A salesman at the show (EDTA Orlando) last week in the Maxwell booth (I
> forget his name) mentioned that when I brought it up. He went further to
> say
> that they can be installed either way at the factory and charged in either
> direction. (Maybe he was just kidding.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Non-Polarized ultracaps
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Mark, I just read your conference report, and it looks like
they are quite a bit more progressive than their website gives away,
apologies for speaking too soon. Lots of interesting stuff in your
report.
> Perhaps I'm being unfair or cynical, but it's the first I hear of this
> organisation, and they are endorsing *Florida* as a leading example
> of environmental concience?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-09-30 at 10:28, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Are ADC motors c-face mountable?
>
The shaft end should be used for most mounting purposes.
There are small mounting holes on the commutator end, but I would not
count on them for any more than holding up that end of the motor. They
would probably not hold the entire weight. They could be used in
conjunction with a cradle and an independant torque rod.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John Westlund wrote:
>I was quoting Chris Dixon's article in the NY Times.
OK, that was your first mistake :-) I figured that's what you had done. I've read the
same article, several times. Never, ever, trust that reporters get it right...never!
Example...back in '94 when Blue Meanie was the featured centerfold car of Car Audio and
Electronics magazine, I was asked what kind of real range it had. At the time of the
interview and write-up, I was negotiating with Optima on the prototype Yellow Tops (got
them shortly after the story in CA & E), but the car still had a pack made up of group
27,
12V thermo-oil wet cells. I told the reporter, that driving it in a fun and spirited
way,
it would go 25-30 miles per charge. He pressured me on what it could do if I 'really'
tried for range. I told him that if range was the all-out goal, and if it was 75-80
degrees out with warmed up batteries, and driving like a grandma at 35 mph, and,
pushing
the batteries to their exhausted limit, it might do 45-50 miles. I followed my answer
by
telling him that 45-50 miles was not indicative of what the car did normally, and
again,
that the daily range was 25-30 miles per charge. I remember stressing my point of how
this
car was designed first and foremost, to be a fun, quick, fast, little electric car
where
smoking the tires and beating a gas car in a stop light run, was far more important to
me
than range per charge. Care to guess what they published for a daily range? How's 75
miles
per charge sound?
>"What will a Tzero buyer get?
>A car that, from zero to 100 and through the quarter mile, will run with, or beat....
John, what you should have noted in the above, is when Mr. Dixon said 0-100. He said
that,
because he was told by AC Propulsion of the car’s limited top speed of 100 mph, so at
least he got that part right. If a car can only hit 100 mph, it is very unlikely to to
do
anything better than a very high 12. Example....White Zombie does 101 mph in 12.99
seconds. There are exceptions to this, of course. Vehicles with insane power levels can
have a limited top speed and yet turn in mid 12’s at around 100 mph. Electric Louie’s
‘insane’ Bolder cell powered go kart did better, at a blistering 12.1 @ 102 mph in the
1/4
mile...trust me, tZero aint even close to this thing! Here’s another....just last
weekend,
Duane Gergich rode Steve Kiser’s electric motorcycle to 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and it
took 12.5 seconds to do it. Maniac Mazda, when at its peak of insanity with TMF Inspira
experimental batteries, made somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 electric hp, weighed
about the same as tZero, and had huge wrinkle wall drag slicks. It ran an incredible
11.2
seconds @ 108 mph. This is a car that was worlds away from tZero, with twice the hp,
the
same weight, and the incredible off-the-line traction of a funny car.
>The article may be wrong, but if it is viewed as a correct source at first glance,
>then
>given what 575Ms, Murceilagos, and
>Carrera GTs pull, you could say it is somewhere >in the high 11s, low 12s.
He’s a reporter. If you take what he had written: “A car that, from zero to 100 and
through the quarter mile, will run with, or beat....”, and reword it like this: “A car
that, from zero to 100 can beat, and through the quarter mile will run with....”, you
might have some truth there. The tZero is cleverly designed to be super quick and fun,
with top speed not a major concern. I believe it does beat these super cars in both all
three of 0-60, 0-100, and 1/8th mile...I do not for one instance, think it can beat
any of
them in a real 1/4 mile drag. The reporter’s view of ‘run with’ is probably way
different
than a real drag racer’s view of ‘run with’. Two cars drag racing....one turns in a
12.2,
the other turns in a 12.3....that’s 'running with’. Two cars drag racing....one turns
in a
12.2, the other turns in a 12.8....that’s getting your doors blown off! My educated
guess
is, that with sticky enough rubber and using their traction control, tZero would turn
in a
12.8 or so at 100 mph. Low 12’s high 11’s...no way!
>maybe I made an error in assuming it to be correct.
My point exactly, and why I felt compelled to rebut your post. Too many of us have
worked
years to put EV performance on the map and get electric cars taken seriously. NEDRA has
done great things with its Record Holders page, for the stats and proof are
indisputable.
>I certainly have not found any time slips of the TZero....
You won’t. Hopefully, we will at some time, see them.
>I'd like to see that NY Times writer present them. ;)
You won’t. They ran 1/8th mile, not 1/4 mile.
>I completely agree with you on the point of using an actual car
Yes, because the tZero is anything other than an actual car.
>Your Corolla idea would have all the ricers in an uproar, if not an outright state of
>shock. I'd certainly be impressed at such a car as you have in mind. Just imagine
>giving
>people rides in such a car as that EV Corolla you have in mind. :-)
I picked the Corolla because it’s recognizable as a regular car, affordable, solidly
built
and nicely assembled, and in the case of the XRS, pretty zippy as it comes. Try this
one...do the comparo between a stock Prius and the AC propulsion full electric Prius.
You’d go from 50 mpg and 0-60 in 10 seconds, to 200-230 miles per charge and 0-60 in 5
seconds! Trust me, a Prius like this, would get far more attention than the toy like
tZero.
>I may be wrong on certain things about it, but it can't hurt to learn. :-)
I’ve always enjoyed your posts and enthusiasm. Unfortunately, your ‘low 12’s high 11’s’
assumptions came right after Woodburn, right after some of us had weeks of intense race
preparation work only to blow stuff up, so you don’t have to.
To their credit, the tZero is still listed at AC Propulsion’s home page as 13.2 in the
1/4
mile. They can do that, because it was actually run down the 1/4 mile. With its new
lighter weight because of the powerful lithium batteries, I’m sure this composite
machine
could pull off 12’s.....Like I said, show me the time slips.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Here are some observations from the discussions I have read
Ultracaps need to be balanced when connected in series-you have all confirmed this.
Depending on acceptable leakage current you can use resistors or active balancers.
Some failure mechanisms
You can get there by overvoltage-but also by the increased temperature caused by
reactions that start occurring with the acetonitrile electrolyte above 2.5 volts. An
easy method for monitoring a wide class of failure modes is to monitor temperature at
the capacitors and/or the use of thermal fuses. One indication of failure or
overvoltage or overtemeprature is the seepage of electrolyte, which appears as a white
crusty substance. Once you start exceeding 2.5 volts, all bets are off. Many
manufacturers rate their ultracapacitors above 2.5 volts-but at the price of decreased
lifetime. So the rule of thumb is more voltage-less life. You can probably get by
with 2.6 volts, but you pay the price of eventual failure. At higher voltages or
during misuse (reversed polarity, no balancing, etc) you start dealing with
catastrophic failure-boom. We do destructive testing here to test failure
modes-ultracaps can blow doors of of ovens.
Also-keep in mind that at above 2.5 volts rather than leakage, failure will also be
evidenced by reduced performance (reduced capacitance-increased resistance, etc.)
The capacitors are designed to safely release pressure in a normal failure mode (NOT
misuse). It would be prudent if you plan to be in an enclosed environment with
ultracaps(ie the passenger compartment of a car) to provide some sort of ventilation
(same thing for batteries). An indication of the presence of acetonitrile will be eye
irritation.
Yes, if one fails in a series string-the whole chain can go. You need to design
electrical safety mechanisms that take this into account.
As you can see these components are not for the uneducated-Maxwell as the other
manufacturers have literature on their web sites for this purpose.
The acetonitrile is not something you want to play with, but under normal usage
conditons the capacitors are designed to be safe. Think about how nasty batteries are
and how they can get unpleasant under the right conditions-same thing with
ultracaps-just respect them as you would any other electrical device.
---------------------------------
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vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a related note, what about 13Ah hawkers? I only need about 15 mile
range (of course I want more, but right now my range is zero while I
finish the car), and was given some battery boxes designed for 13 Ah
hawkers, and will easily fit my car. If I went this route, I would
probably have 28 of them in series, and would never draw more than 280A.
100A to 150A is more likely. Any one have experience with these? On my
way to the hawker web site...
- Steve
> Now that folks have been using the Excide 34xd's for a little while,
> what is the real-life capacity looking like?
>
> The spec sheet says 50 A-hrs, so 80% DOD would be 40 A-hrs. Is this
> number realistic?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intially Ultracaps are unpolarized-however after first use they become polarized.
They are all tested at Maxwell-hence they become polarized-and for this reason they
have polarity indications stamped on them. Dont connect them backwards!
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry, I really should have googled before I posted... here is a link
to an nrel test on exactly this battery:
http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/analysis/documents/hawker_validation.html
looks like about 5 3/4 amp-hours at 100A, 4 3/4 ah at 130 amps...
- Steve
> On a related note, what about 13Ah hawkers? I only need about 15 mile
> range (of course I want more, but right now my range is zero while I
> finish the car), and was given some battery boxes designed for 13 Ah
> hawkers, and will easily fit my car. If I went this route, I would
> probably have 28 of them in series, and would never draw more than 280A.
> 100A to 150A is more likely. Any one have experience with these? On my
> way to the hawker web site...
>
> - Steve
>
>> Now that folks have been using the Excide 34xd's for a little while,
>> what is the real-life capacity looking like?
>>
>> The spec sheet says 50 A-hrs, so 80% DOD would be 40 A-hrs. Is this
>> number realistic?
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. They have a C Face.
Most EVers don't use it..... But it's there, and WE should since it's the
designed mothod for installing the motor. Most of us mill out the hole and
never micro machine the C-face circle. We should it's a much stouter install
that way.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:28 AM
Subject: ADC Motors: C-Face?
> Are ADC motors c-face mountable?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What and where is the "C face"? Mill out what hole??
And, are you talking about machining the motor mounting surfaces?
Phil
Yes. They have a C Face.
Most EVers don't use it..... But it's there, and WE should since it's the
designed mothod for installing the motor. Most of us mill out the hole and
never micro machine the C-face circle. We should it's a much stouter
install
that way.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:28 AM
Subject: ADC Motors: C-Face?
> Are ADC motors c-face mountable?
>
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:28 AM 9/30/04 -0700, you wrote:
Are ADC motors c-face mountable?
The ADC motor does not have a c-face per se. A c-face locates on an 8.5"
O.D. The ADC locates on either a 4" diameter (for 9" motor) or 3.25"
diameter (for 8" motor) projection on the face of the drive end bell. Our
adaptor spacer rings bolt to the drive end of the motor to make it look
like a c-face, which is what the Prestolites had, which were the motors we
were using long ago, when we started doing adaptors.
Both the 8" and the 9" motors can be mounted, using the four 3/8"-16 holes
in the drive end with no other support needed, a la VW Bug. In most
vehicles, however, the overall motor/transmission mounting setup expects
and requires some support on the far end of the motor. That is the sole
reason ADC includes the holes on that end of the motor. If you use the
mounting holes provided on both ends of the motor, no cradle is needed.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice job! Have any pictures?
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: September 30, 2004 8:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Heater Cored
I cored my heater core, and it worked out great! Last night I took apart
the dash and removed the heater core out of my Geo Metro. Since the ceramic
heater I purchased from KTA comes with its own plastic casing, I had an
idea. Firing up the jig saw, I cut out the finned radiator middle part of
the Metro's old core. Then I screwed a 7/8-inch plastic spacer onto two
sides of the KTA casing and popped the new unit back into the middle of the
old core where I'd just removed the radiator part. It made a nice, tight
fit, and I screwed it in place then slid the whole unit right back into the
ductwork where it had come from.
I hope everything on my conversion works out this perfectly. :)
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Micro machine?? Nothing on a motor mount fits into that category of
machining. :)
Anything over ±0.0002 is just everyday stuff around here.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ADC Motors: C-Face?
> Yes. They have a C Face.
> Most EVers don't use it..... But it's there, and WE should since it's the
> designed mothod for installing the motor. Most of us mill out the hole and
> never micro machine the C-face circle. We should it's a much stouter
> install
> that way.
--- End Message ---
