EV Digest 3857
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery charger
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC to DC and isolation
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Mike C
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Clutch Ruminations
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Life After Woodburn, pt. 2
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery charger
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Lester problems
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) chicago land ev's
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Getting a title for a Commutacar
by "Jeff Dobereiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: LiIon price increase -- a result of new regulations?
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Pot box resistance question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV 'X" prize?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Getting a title for a Commutacar
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Various Bad Boy Chargers
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Disc motor coils for use with Etek magnets + E-tek parts for sale
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Bike Batteries - was "Food energy"
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: cost of the heart attack
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I hesitate to mention a "bad boy" charger to a beginner, because they
> are so "rude and crude". A beginner is likely to exaggerate their good
> points (small, light, and cheap), and underestimate their bad points
> (dangerous, battery killer).
>
I was thinking it would be neat to have all that bad boy on a wet site ,
telling a little about each one and a picture ,
plane bad boy
bad boy with manners
bad boy on the clock
bad girl ( runs on two hot legs )
bad boy with a pale of water , one I never tried a "Lee Hart original :-)
bad boy with a brain
> To be reasonable, the following parts should be added to a "bad boy", or
> a beginner will almost certainly melt cords, shock people, and ruin
> his/her batteries:
>
It sound like Sharon is making lots of cars and trying to keep the price
down, I know people don't want to spend a lot of money to TRY out a ev for a
while , If you had to choise between a conrtoller with contactors and a
nice charger or a good controller and a bad boy for the charger , I think I
would say get a good controller and deal with the bad boy. That being said
when I sold the ranger I put in a PFC 20 as I didn't want them to have to
deal with all the bad boy problems , even though this ment money out of my
pocket ( their paying $100 month with no money down, O you didn't see the
OBO by the ad:-) .
Jerry idea is good ( if we are going to say any bad boy is good) , it will
give isolation ( which realy makes it not a bad boy)
That depends on what kind of batts you are using.
If it's GC batts or other floodeds you can use 2-
36vdc ferro type GC chargers by replacing the full
wave diodes with a bridge rectifier in each which
raises the voltage to 72vdc in each as a good
regulated, low cost way.
I made one using 1 golf cart charger transformer hooking the 36v out put in
series with the 120 ac and used the 120v end of the transformer to
controller the charging rate , with a small variac this worked for 144 to
156v. no isolation but twice that amps. Lee had a good post on using a
relay that ran on the current and would shut off the charger when the
current dropped to a set level .
Steve Clunn
With no bad boys in my house any more , thanks Rich.
> - GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor) to avoid electrocuting
> someone who touches the batteries while charging.
> - Fuse or circuit breaker, one size smaller than the one the outlet
> you will be using is protected with (to prevent nuisance tripping
> and wearing out the main breaker).
> - Ammeter (so you can tell what the heck you are charging at).
> - Voltmeter (so you can tell when the pack reaches full charge).
> - Timer (to automatically shut the thing off after some reasonable
> time even if the user forgets).
> - Some kind of defined voltage dropping device (not extension cords)!
> These can be physical resistors (cheapest, worst), inductors (one
> winding of a transformer), capacitors (somewhat easier to get), or
> a variac (most versatile; becomes a "third world charger").
>
> If your pack is 144vdc nominal, then you need a buck-boost transformer
> or variac for a "bad boy" to work.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A motorcycle light can be 35w. The rest aren't much and/or intermittent. A
smalll aux. battery could be used as a buffer for the low powered DC/DC.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 5:58 AM
Subject: DC to DC and isolation
> Damon wrote "I recently purchased the following switching power supplies
to
> use as DC to
> DC converters for my motorcycle.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3841986181
> Up until now I have been using a seperate auxillary battery to power my my
> lights, which works fine, it just has to be charged seperately. Now that
I
> am getting ready to install these instead or in conjucntion with the
battery
> I am wondering what kind of isolation issues I might introduce. For the
most
> part the lights on the bike have the frame connected as ground. Will I be
> introducing a path from my traction pack to the frame of the bike if I use
> these? They did not come with schematics."
>
> I checked the specs listed at the auction, and have a few questions. These
> units appear to only convert down -15volts and have only 1amp of output
when
> doing so. So I do not see how they can work to operate your headlights or
> any other lights. As these lights require far more than 1amp of power
(your
> headlight should be between 5 and 10amps alone) at a maximum 15volts
(which
> means your battery pack voltage can be a maximum 30volts). Running a 12
volt
> light at 16 volts or more will greatly reduce its life span. Or did I read
> something wrong?
> As for sharing ground paths, we do it all the time. Many big trucks run a
> dual 12 volt and 24 volt set up with a shared ground path ( truck frame).
So
> there is no problem there.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you get my e mail , sent you a few \\I'm getting yours
steve clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a PDF of a VW TDI flywheel, if memory serves, it is pretty
close to a 2.0L gas flywheel. I came up with 0.14 kg-m^2 for a steel
flywheel/pressure plate. Not knowing how the amuninum ones are
constructed, but the mass it half, use 0.07kg-m^2 for mass moment of
interia. So you save 7Nm at 100rad/sec and 14Nm at 200 rad/sec.
HTH
Seth
On Oct 16, 2004, at 9:35 AM, Seth Allen wrote:
It isn't just the wight but the average diameter that matters. So the
ring gear definitely goes. On VW "inside out" flywheels (at least in
to the 1990s), there is a lot of mass at the rim, in my experience
they aren't all that flat. So a thickness and a diameter of the
friction surface and a depth and ID and OD of the outer ring are good.
The pressure plate is generally a rectangular cross section revolved
about the crank, so that is easy enough.
Oh yeah, is 225mm the friction surface diameter, or the OD? I bet it
is the friction suface diameter.
I am assuming you have all this apart :)
Seth
On Oct 16, 2004, at 4:48 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
I like your calculations. What I have found out so far: Stock
flywheel is 225 mm and about 12.5 pounds. I think you could safely
assume it is a solid cylinder. A lighter flywheel saves 5 pounds, and
a lighter pressure plate saves 7 pounds. I can also remove the ring
gear (it is separate and bolted on), I'd guess it is another pound. I
plan to weigh mine if I wind up removing them (but since I'm buying
new ones there is no real need to remove the old ones).
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The torque to accelerate a mass like a flywheel is proportional to
the
mass moment of inertia and the rate of acceleration. If you use
kg-m^2
and radians per second you get torque in newton meters. A newton
meter
is about 3/4 of a foot pound. For cocktail napkin math, figure
rpm/second = 0.1 radians per second squared. (really it is a factor
of
~1/9.55 but this is an approximation) So a change of 2000 rpm in
one
second is about 200 radians per second squared.
Simple enough, right? SO what is the mass moment of inertia of a
flywheel. You could estimate it with a few formulae, or get a CADD
jockey to spit it out. My hunch for a 4 cylinder flywheel is
0.1-0.2kg-m^2, and a motor rotor is like 0.02-0.05. But if someone
e-mails me a drawing of a VW flywheel and pressure plate, I can get
an
estimate from my CADD software.
A sample calculation:
Stock flywheel, pressure plate, clutch. 1000 RPM/sec, 0.2kg-m^2.
Call
it 100 rad/sec^2*.2kg-m^2 or 20 Nm or 15 ft-lb. At stall you may
have a
lot of torque on tap, but accelerating from 4000-5000 rpm, 15 ft-lb
might take a big bite out of the available torque. If you get an
aluminum flywheel and keep a steel pressure plate, you might drop
half
the inertia thereby freeing up 7Nm. Doesn't sound like much, but
that
is a net gain. See below.
Assume you have 80Nm available at 4000 RPM. You use 40 Nm to
overcome
wind drag, 5 for rolling resistance. That leaves you with 35 NM
with
which to accelerate. If you can accelerate at 100 rad/sec^2 in 2nd
gear, then most of the remaining torque (20Nm) goes to the steel
flywheel and pressure plate and you are left with 15 Nm. Or you
accelerate more slowly. With the aluminum flywheel, you have a net
25Nm. 1.66X the net torque! Hypothetical, yes. But that is at least
an
illustration of where the data goes.
I hope this illustrates this phenomenon a bit. And someone send me
a
drawing of a car flywheel, and I will get an estimate.
Seth
On Oct 15, 2004, at 7:26 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
I'll look forward to reading your test data. I wouldn't expect an
earth shattering improvement, but effectively maybe 60 pounds
lighter
would be 2% faster acceleration, worth a tenth or two off the
0-60
time.
I'd like to get all your videos on your grassrootsev site, can
you
put one of those handy paypal things for that on your site? Would
it
be easy for you to cram them all onto one DVD?
Machining the hub right on the motor shaft sounds pretty clever.
I
thought I remembered you posting you were buying commercial
taperlock
couplers now. Which method do you prefer?
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Geared weight is even worse! Suppose your 1st gear is a 10:1
overall
ratio. Weight in your clutch, flywheel, and motor acts like it
has
ten times the effective rotational inertia! Another way to
think
about it is about 100 times more energy will go into this
geared
spinning flywheel than a stationary one bolted to the car upon
accelerating. Figure a flywheel is about 1/2 the diameter of a
wheel,
and you can figure that every pound you take off the flywheel
is
like
taking about 2 pounds off the car.
these are some of the reasons I like the lov joy couplers ,
total
weight is
only a few lbs. What I have done in the past is to take the
clutch
spines
out of the clutch and weld it to one of the Lov joy couplers ,
the
other
half I just buy with the 1 1/8 hole for the motor.
Lightweight flywheels and pressure plates are well known
racer's
tricks, but generally discouraged for street use. A gas car
with
a
very light flywheel is hard to start, idles poorly, and is easy
to
stall.
Maybe some day sombody will start selling a aluminum flywheel
with
a nice
taper lock hub in one unit , let the buyer put the holes for the
presser
plate or the seller could do that also.
For electric motors, however, no worries! Electric motors are
smooth,
and don't need a heavy flywheel to even out the torque
pulsations.
They can't stall, so no worries there. And they don't idle, so
no
need to worry about that -- and even if it does idle no
worries.
A
lighter flywheel will give a bit better acceleration and a bit
better
range.
I don't think anybody has had both setup to really compare , I
am
planning
on redoing my Porsche and going form clutch to no clutch , the
hub
I made
for that car was .07 out , with 120 v it work fine but 240
showed a
vibration , I'll take some good measurements one power used with
both setup
and then we'll have some real info.
=====
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
=====
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
>It looked as if we finally, were close to being done........and.........then......it
>happened!
There were perhaps, just six or seven more wires to connect under the hood, but I also
wanted
to freshen-up the 240V pack before ‘electrically’ adding in the four extra fully
charged
batteries. With about 1/2 hour of low voltage control type wiring to do, I asked Oat
to fire
up (bad choice of words) the Zombie’s PFC 30 charger. And so, with a flip of the
breaker, the
charger was turned on.........’ZORCH!!!!!!’ Oh-oh...bad Ju Ju! It wasn’t a good
‘zorch’
as in something 12V related....oh no....it was instead, that characteristic high
voltage sounding
type zorch....not good! In an instant, something had gone very wrong under the hood.
Oat instinctively flipped off the charger, ran to my aid to see if I was all right,
then had
that look of “What the hell was that” I must have had the same look going on. What had
happened wasn’t immediately apparent as we looked here and there trying to find what
had
zorched. There was no visible smoke, no telltale burn marks, no melted
wires...nothing. As I
scanned the motor bay looking for the problem, I eventually allowed my eyes to look
over at
the expensive, freshly sponsored SCR, the secret weapon this whole week-long endeavor
was
centered around...and to my horror, there it was. The most sensitive component of the
sci-fi
looking monster device, the two longish light gauge gate turn-on input leads I had not
yet
connected, were dangling among lots of other electrical ‘stuff’, and one of them had a
half
melted off ring terminal connector! This pair of leads, red and white, are supposed to
be fed
with 10-16 Vdc, one of them connected to the SCR’s cathode, the other connected to the
gate.
In my mind I pleaded, “Oh please, please please, let it be the cathode wire that’s been
zorched....not the sensitive gate wire...oh please, please, please......” Zorching the
light
gauge cathode side trigger wire would have been no biggie since the cathode that it is
bonded
to is connected to solid metal capable of carrying enormous currents...a short circuit
down
this path would have simply toasted the little ring terminal or the thin wire with no
other
device damage.....but oh no, my luck would be so good! Nope, instead, it was indeed,
the gate
input wire!!! My stomach cramped up instantly, and I got that sick feeling of total
despair,
and once again in my mind the pleading began, “Oh please, please please, don’t let it
be
ruined....”
Oat saw the look on my face and did his best to console me, suggesting that it (the
SCR) might
have lived through the ordeal, but inside, we both knew it was probably destroyed. All
I can
say, is thank goodness I keep the emergency disconnect for the bypass circuit pulled
until the
car is actually ready to make a quarter mile pass (more on this later), and thank
goodness I
also use a safety series contactor on the other side as well. We both double checked
the high
current wiring and found the cathode side of the SCR was dead-ended with the open
circuited
emergency disconnect pulled, and the anode side of the SCR too, was open circuited via
the
brand new Albright SW200 contactor’s open tips. Both us, try as we did, could not find
the
matching zorch mark where the gate input wire had made contact....never did find what
it
touched. We measured both ways between the anode and cathode, to to our dismay, it
read pretty
close to a dead short...bummer! Confirming this, we connected a 12V Hawker and a 20
amp draw
air craft landing light both direction through the SCR, and sadly, it lit up brightly
both
ways, absent any tourn-on pulse to the gate :-( :-( :-( :-(
I had done it, I’d blown weeks of effort in a mere instant of stupidity! I was of
course, very
upset, very angry, very disgusted, and quite frankly, exhausted. As I started to put
tools
away and was kicking myself, Oat did his best to pull me out of my funk. I walked away
from
him out of the shop and into the house to confess to my wife, but Oat followed me,
never once
shutting up on how important it was for me to get back in control and do whatever we
needed to power up the car, get it on the trailer, and have it at Woodburn. He
reminded me
of how the car’s never not made it to Woodburn and how there would be many excited out
of
town EVers wanting to at least ‘see’ White Zombie. Damn, he was irritating! He was also
right though, and after a fashion, he had worn me down and had convinced me to get
back to
prepping the car.
I tied up the dangling SCR wires, disconnected a few other circuits pertaining to the
bypass
affair, and tidied up all loose ends....I thought! With no functioning Afterburner
mode, it
was pointless to finish the install of the four extra batteries, and so they were left
out of
the car. For the first time ever, White Zombie would not be on the track at Woodburn,
and it
was only going to be a static display in the pits.
For the first time in over a week, and for the first time with the all new rear axle
set up,
the car was lowered back onto the ground. Man, it looked great with those fat rear
tires
tucking up into the fender wells instead of sticking out too far, barely clearing the
fender
lips. I remember thinking, “Too bad it’s all show and no go.”
It was time to back White Zombie out of the shop, up the sloped driveway, and out to
the
street where the Jeep and trailer were staged. Cautiously, and with Oat nearby to
watch for
anything out of the ordinary, I turned the key, flipped the dash direction switch to
reverse,
and eased down on the throttle.....nothing! I stepped down nearly all the way and
heard a loud
squeal, not too unlike a Curtis whine...what the hell was this? Oat and I were a bit
perplexed, as he said, “That sounds like distressed PWM!” He wanted me to try it once
more. I stepped back down again, we heard that awful sound again, but this time, white
smoke suddenly billowed out from under the hood! Geez, now what?
To be continued.....
See Ya.....John ‘Plasma Boy’ Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charger
> >
> > Hi Guys, does any one of you know how to make a
> > bettery charger, to
> > run at about 10 amps, input of 110 Volts, and out
> > put of 144 volts.
> > all the ones that I have found ..so far.. are
> > priced way over my
> > buget..I was wondering who would like to take on
> > that kind of
> > project???? I may need 3 of them. Thanks Sharon
> >
>
> Isn't 144vdc about the right output for a badboy (or badboy with manners)
> charger?
> Yeah! Pretty darn close! I ran , as a test 21, 6 volt GC batteries in the
Rabbit so I could charge with just a bridge rectifier, with my rock solid
120 volts from my local utility. Worked great, plugitin and forget it, Amps
dropped off to about 3 at full charge, all I needed was a timer to shut it
off. At work, my 100 foot 'stench cord does a good voltage dropping number
so I can crank the veriac up to full, for 15 amps in. Crude, but it has
worked for YEARS, in my situation.
You truck folks have room to play around with the right number of
batteries(voltage) to get the bad boy thing right, or do it from a 240 volt
Bad Boy setup, like 40 batteries, A Red beastie setup?
Chargin' Along
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> the spark on the relay's contacts was much brighter when they
> closed to turn the pump on than opening to turn the pump off.
That makes sense. The starting current is much higher than the running
current. The relay contact is hit with a very high *current* on turn-on,
and a very high *voltage* on turn-off (with no freewheel diode). Which
of these is worse for the relay depends on its voltage and current
ratings (which is being overloaded the worst).
> So it really looks like for the turn-on, I should consider Mark
> Hanson's CL-60 inrush surge protector
Yes, this is a good solution to reduce the starting surge. Their cold
resistance is high, so they limit the peak starting current. But as they
heat up, their resistance drops, eventually producing essentially no
voltage drop.
But, I would measure your pump's actual running current, and pick an
inrush limiter whose current matches it. Buy 3 inrush limiters; one
slightly smaller, one the "correct" size, and one slightly larger.
You'll have to experiment to see which one is actually right.
> also try to hunt down Lee's cap/resistor explanation.
The capacitor/resistor snubber is an alternative for the simple diode
across the coil. It does nothing for the starting current surge (in
fact, it makes it a little worse). But the capacitor/resistor snubber is
better at reducing the voltage spike at turnoff than a diode.
> One concern about the CL-60: one time I tried lowering the
> voltage across the pump to about 8V. The pump stalled once it
> was down to about 15-20" vacuum, so that was the end of the
> low-voltage slow-pump noise-reduction idea. (Would think it
> would stall at a lesser vacuum when there was more air to move,
> hence more work.) Sounds like the CL-60 just limits the initial
> current, and then we have full voltage from there (more or less).
Right. When you size this type of inrush limiter correctly, it will have
less than 1v drop while running.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TiM M wrote:
> I have a Lester 09387 charger, it's a 12V/96V
> model. The first time I plugged it in to 220 all went
> well and it went through it's charge cycle and then
> turned off. I drove around a bit and went to charge it
> again. I plugged in the 220 source again and the 20A
> breaker popped after about 5 minutes. When I reset the
> breaker and plugged the charger in again the breaker
> popped right away.
A 20a breaker might be a bit small for your Lester on 240vac. Mine draws
about 16 amps, which is 80% of a 20a breaker's rating. Yours might
actually trip at a bit less than 20a, and so trips even though there is
no actual fault condition.
Another thing to do is check your AC line voltage at the charger. It
should be close to 240vac (not 220vac). Paradoxically, a Lester charger
draws *more* current as line voltage drops. If you have low line
voltage, or a long wire run of too-small wire, or a bad connector
somewhere, the Lester will see a lower AC input voltage, and so it draws
*more* input current to keep the DC output the same. This could push the
breaker past its trip point.
There might be something in the Lester itself that would make it work on
120vac but not on 240vac; but I don't know offhand what it would be. All
the major components are used at both voltages, and work the same.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i am looking for someone or some club in the chicago area that could help
teach me about ev's. does anyone know of any thing. thanks a lot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey,
Just wondering how hard it is in New York State to title a CommutaCar which
only has a bill of sale.
-Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okaaaaay! H2's are for _grocery_runs_! I always wondered!
I get a weeks worth of groceries for a family of four in a kid's bike
trailer. Must be some kinda magic trick, eh? Somehow I can easily see my
grocery boxes sitting in the passenger's floor and seat of a T-zero. But
I guess I really _should_ be dreaming of a Hummer for this.
Price of plastic skyrocketed? I can get a Hummer load of plastic from
Toys R Us for less than the cost of a couple of the GC batteries in my
car. Plastic expensive? Huh?
Shipping cost increases: Why would this affect LiIon's more than the
rest of the massive flow of goods? Why haven't the prices at Toys R Us
doubled? Why hasn't the price on Chinese PbA starting batteries gone up?
Reasons I could believe would be something like domestic Chinese demand
increase, or early low pricing to get people interested, now raising to
a realistic level.
Or if it is related to the Iraq war, maybe demand from the US military
is sucking up supply.
- John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: October 14, 2004 4:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: LiIon price increase -- a result of new regulations?
Accord to distributor I talked to while attempting to
price a pack- Those rules went into affect over a year
ago. What's really happening it the oil prices are
climbing and the plastic cases use oil in
manufacturing and the cost of delivery went up as
well. The new regs just limit the amount of lithium
per package. Also it sounds like lithium is a rare
element which limits the amount of batteries being
made. So they may not ever become cost effective.
While they look to be a great power to weight ratio
you'll need a bundle to afford them. Think of it this
way: T-zero 6800 each 18690 AA sized batteries and
12.00 a four pack. Now add their 25K BMS and AC
controller. And you already have an SUV Hummer price.
Sure it goes fast and long distance but I can't carry
a weeks worth of food in it.
--- Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A friend who works for a LiIon battery distributer
> told me that there
> are new regulations for LiIon battery shipping and
> cell/battery
> construction that are going into effect. Many
> existing suppliers can no
> longer ship product as a result.
>
> The story is that this started when a forklift at
> the LA airport pierced
> a pallet of LiIon cells.
>
> Here is a pointer to his company's web page which
> contains various
> documents related to the new regulations.
>
> http://www.nexergy.com/lithium_shipping.html
>
> I have just downloaded the docs myself, and have not
> read them yet.
>
>
> Gary
>
> ====================================
> From: Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:28 pm
> Subject: Re: TS Price Increase
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> Just so you know, the price of all Lithium batteries
> has started going up. The explaination I've received
> from more than one Chinese supplier is "Iraq war" or
> increasing petroleum costs have made their raw
> materials price skyrocket. Turns out the Li-ion
> batteries use lots of petro-chemicals to make :)
>
> -Sam
>
>
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TiM M wrote:
> I've got a PB6 connected to a 1231C Curtis
> controller. When I measure the resistance across the
> pot while the throttle cable moves through it's travel
> the resistance moves from 0 to about 4.3K ohms. This
> is while not connected to the 1231C
That's about right. 5K ohms is the nominal value.
> when it is connected to the controller the resistance
> goes from 0 to about 2.3 k ohms. Is this right?
Yes, that's ok. There are some more resistors inside the controller that
lower the apparent value.
> I've also noticed that the cover on the opposite side from the
> connections has come off the controller, any body else have this
> happen? How hard is it to get it back on and sealed?
Yes; mine did it, too. It's fairly common. Curtis controllers are *NOT*
sealed, despite appearances. The potting compound that they use to seal
the ends is not all that strong. It often cracks due to temperature
cycling.
Your best bet it to glue the cover back on with a little silicone
rubber. Don't overdo it -- if the controller fails, you may want to get
that cover back off!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There have been lots of good suggestions for an EV-related "X" prize.
They are basically describing the desired vehicle in great detail. Lots
of rules and restrictions. This is pretty much what almost all races do.
They seek to define not only WHAT must be done, but HOW you must do it.
My own thought is that the idea of the "X" prize is quite different. I
think the idea is to state a problem as concisely as possible, and place
as few restrictions as possible on how it is to be achieved.
For instance, the "X" prize just asks that you carry two people into
space (defined at 62 miles up), and do it twice in two weeks with the
same vehicle. They did NOT say whether it had to be done with a rocket,
or airplane, or balloon, or even a big Jules Verne type cannon. HOW you
did it was left up to the designer's imagination.
This kind of prize encourages people to think "outside the box". Come up
with NEW solutions that haven't been tried before. When faced with a
difficult "insoluble" problem, one way to solve it is to ignore the past
solutions (after all, they didn't work), and seek NEW ones that haven't
been tried yet.
So, maybe the next "X" prize is to invent a new method of transportation
that is:
- is energy efficient
- uses renewable fuels
- transports people to/from work
- is faster than driving in rush-hour traffic
- is "reasonably" comfortable (keeps rain off, provides heating
and cooling).
- is "reasonably" affordable (no unobtainium)
I happen to believe that electric power will be a significant factor in
the design of such a vehicle. But, I don't think it must be
*exclusively* electric.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Dobereiner wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> Just wondering how hard it is in New York State to title a CommutaCar which
> only has a bill of sale.
Back in the 1970's, I titled my home-built electric car. It wasn't too
difficult. NY had a form that needed to be filled out, and an inspection
was made to see that it matched what you were telling them. Mainly, they
wanted to check that the serial numbers of the motor, transmission, body
etc. weren't from stolen vehicles. In my case, none of these parts were
ever part of any car; they were new raw materials. I had no trouble
getting a title.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Steve Clunn wrote:
> I was thinking it would be neat to have all that bad boy on a wet site ,
> telling a little about each one and a picture ,
>
> plain bad boy
> bad boy with manners
> bad boy on the clock
> bad girl ( runs on two hot legs )
> bad boy with a pail of water , one I never tried a "Lee Hart original :-)
> bad boy with a brain
I know you're referring to Lee's tongue and cheek pail of water with salt as the
conductor, but I believe I was the originator of the real bucket of water Bad Boy :-)
Years ago, when the long distance lead acid powered electric Toyota pickup, Red
Beastie,
(120 miles per charge on 40, T-105s) was my primary transport device, after I had
blown up
its 240 vac charger, I needed to be able to drive it a good distance the following
day. At
120V, it's huge battery pack (2500 lbs.) was too low voltage for using a Bad Boy
without
popping the 20 amp breaker, unless of course, I used a 100 ft. 16 gauge extension cord!
This by itself, would have melted in short order, if it weren't for a five gallon
bucket
of water. I coiled the cord up, and immersed the whole thing except for the two plug
ends
in the bucket. I had changed the ends from the cheesy molded types, to beefier hospital
grade Hubble types that can handle high current and heat better, and used a six foot 12
gauge power cord from the 100 ft. cord's male plug just barely clearing the water,
over to
the outdoor outlet. The female 100 ft. cord end too, was barely clearing the water and
plugged into a Bad Boy (a 40 amp bridge rectifier module on an aluminum heat sink,
with a
50 amp Anderson output and a hospital grade Hubble plug input ) placed on a stool near
the
top of the bucket. I plugged the 'device' in, and 12 amps flowed into the pack, while
the
20 amp breaker never popped (probably sucked 18-19 amps from the socket)....it was
about
5:00 PM on a cool winter day. The next morning, it was about 30 degrees outside at 6:00
AM, and near the truck was this steaming bucket of water! The pack was still sucking 9
amps of current, but the Emeter reported that about 115 ahrs had been stuffed back in.
I
unplugged everything, then dipped my hand in the bucket....yikes, it was damn hot,
enough
to where it could have slow cooked food. Nonetheless, the liquid cooled Bad Boy
worked, no
flames, no popped breakers, no melted parts (barely), and though very inefficient, it
was
a great emergency charger for such a thirsty beast.
Perhaps we could add this to Steve's Bad Boy variations listing as the 'Crock Pot Bad
Boy'.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and All,
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
> > I need a good motor, controller so figured
> I
> > could do it myself at a better quality, lower
> costs
> > and with a low cost, redundant, bldc, owner
> repairable
> > controller!
>
> Well, it is possible -- but it's a big order! I
Yes, it is but so is building an EV from scratch or
ICE!
I've always went the path less or not traveled and
have been please with the results. I expect to fail
several times on the road to getting it right. It's
how I learn and a lot quicker, cheaper than going to
school for it as you will still fail before you get it
right even then. I cut out the middle man!!!
Several things I've done were impossible according
to the experts.
I also need to build a very low speed generator for
my tidal, river power RE project. So this kills 2
birds with one stone, teaching me about motors, gens!
> think what you need to
> do is become *very* familiar with existing designs,
> and then make your
> improvements based on them. If you try to start with
> a blank sheet of
> paper, you have 100+years of experience to catch up.
I'm fairly familar with most types. The only
difference is how I do the controller which uses a
blend of old and new tech.
Regretfully, I'm an e tech from the transistor
era of electronics so need to brush up on Fet power
stage designs which just came in when I decided to go
sailing for 20 yrs ;-)). I started young.
>
> The Lynch motor design has a lot of promise as
> something that you can
> reasonably build yourself, and that will have very
> good performance. It
Yes it would be but for the commutator! Mine fried
on my E-tek.
> also has a commutator, which will greatly simplify
> the controller. Try
> building a scaled-up version.
Not really the way I'm doing the controller. Most
of my problems with EV motors have been the
commutators so want to eliminate it.
The controller circuits are much more simple than
standard controllers, just more of them, one for each
coil or 2 or leg. It doesn't use PWM.
>
> I'm concerned that if you try to make a brushless DC
> motor, it will
> either become so complicated that it is very
> expensive and hard to build
No, I'm pretty cheap so that won't happen ;-).
While it will have a good number of parts, they are
low cost, identical ones.
Total for both will be under $500 in single lots.
I've tried for yrs to find it available for that
price but none have put out the power, 15kw cont, 50kw
peak, or matched the costs, and probably the eff of
mine when optimized.
It's not that I want to do this but lack of
available units at a reasonable costs that forces me
to do it.
I'd have liked to use PM windgen gens but haven't
found a source of them or the parts to make them.
Anyone help here?
I will have some question on timing! The books
don't explain it in detail or well.
> -- or it will be so crude that its efficiency and
> performance will be
> poor.
Tight tolerances should take care of eff along
with thin lams, PM.
I'll use the 8 magnets per side from the E-tek
which I finally got apart once I took out the magnet
holder bolts!! It just popped back everytime I tried
to take off the bell!
But 8 mag/side is great, they are small chrome
plated Neo's, it looks like about 1/8"x1.25"x1.75"
magnets.
I'll put them as the rotors on each side of the
stationary coils in the center.
Looking at the E-tek rotor, the coils aren't!!!!
They are just copper bars machined in the center
for the commutator going outward to the rotor edge,
crossing over and down the other side it looks like,
can't get the other side off because of a snap ring
from he--!
Guess now I know why the comutator burned, it's a
direct short!!! There are about 144 "coils" of them.
And they have lams between them so I guess that
answers my question about using lams but I can just
cut a transformer up for them for the new motor. Lack
of lam sources was a big problem. Not anymore.
BTW these E-tek lams are starting to rust so
those who have them in damp climates should varnish or
otherwise protect them.
So I now have the magnets, next need to make some
coils and mount them. Then make the rotor for each
side of it mounted to the shaft. A very simple design.
One cool thing is it will no longer be limited
to 4000rpm, 48vdc like the E-tek was, giving more
power at about 6-8000rpm. That will allow a higher top
speed with direct drive thru a reduction gear.
So all the parts of the E-tek, the brushes,
holder, bell ends, bad rotor and good bearing besides
the Magnets are for sale if anyone wants them, e-mail
me off list.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
>
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks mark this is really helpful info
Mark Thomasson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Richard,
I have a 180+ kg EM that can go 20 miles at 40mph. It has a 75kg pack, 48v,
55Ahr, Power Sonic AGMs. If you don't use much energy going down hill to
work, you only need to go one quarter of my range, so I guess-timate you
need only one quarter the Ahr's, or 14Ahr. You are a lot lighter than me, so
on level ground, 12 Ahr would probably do the job, such as Power Sonic model
PS-12120, 4.1kg each. A lot depends on how steep the hill is. It's very
flat here in south Texas, so I have no experience to offer you on your hill
situation. You may want to go back to theory to get a number for this.
Also very warm here, so I get a lot out of my AGM's. At 40 mph, you are
using a lot of energy to overcome wind drag. Slow down to 30mph and you
might be able to use a 1/3 smaller pack, or get 1/3 more range. Good
luck, Mark T.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/518.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard ball"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Food energy
> i ride my push bike 5 miles each way to work
............
> i'm building an etek powered one at present though for
> use in the summer (the ride home is largely uphill)
> can any one help me with the battery selection for
> this from previous experience rather than theory ?
> weight of bike will be 50kg top speed 40mph 48V
> regards
> richard
>
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i think for my eteck bike project i will fix a small trailer on the back and use 4 big
batteries and to hell with the calculations
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:$102,000 billed to me when insurance company
rejected claim. $40,000
when insurace paid contract price. (can you believe they would hold me
to the $102,000 when they would take 40K ? ) (No-one panic, it was a
partial block that they fixed with a stint, out in 2 days ) but I need
to get back on the bike!
I have all kinds of books on bicyling science and am interested in
building an electric assited bike also. As the racers can atest too,
Horespower is kinda meaningless it is the torque that does the work and
the rpm is how fast, but it helps us with our calculations. Eddie Merks
was measure at putting out 2hp peak, everyone is under 1 hp after the
first minute, but even I can put out as much as the peak torque that my
little mitsubishi truck put out. it is the low rpm that gives the low
HP. High torque low rpm is not normal efficiency of motors, so while
humans gear up, a motor must gear down.
so let us say I want to go 40mph to work under electric power, it is 8
miles on level ground.
power to push through the air + power to roll + power to climb is the
majority
1/2 C V^2
C = volocity in m/s 40 miles * 5280 feet * 1 meter
* 1hr = 17.9 m/s
my book
uses
17.9 hr mile 3.28
feet 3600s
watts = C * [K1 + K2C^2]
k1
k2 watts neglecting slope, headwind, and acceleration needs
RR = raodster 7.845
.3872 2361
SS = sport bike, dropped handlebars 3.509 .258 1543
RG = racer 2.508
.1916 1144
CHPV = steamlined fairing 3.097 .06
400 wow!, need a fairing
UHPV = reclined and stramlined 1.85
.03 205 ok, not worth getting ran over.
8 miles at 40mph is 12 min (yeah, right, it takes 20 in the car)
2361 W / 24V = 98 amps /5 = 19.6aH = 2 optimas to get there ? 2
Hawker G12v38 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 33lbseach need at least 2x cause of
wind,accelr not feasable
1543 w / 24v = 64amps / 5 = 12.8aH reasonable at 20mph
1144 W /24V = 47amps / 5 = 9.5ah reasonable at around 30
400 /24 = 16amps /5 = 3ah gonna need fairing for 40mph
Rich, what kind of real world numbers can you give us from the MBH?
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
