EV Digest 3873
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Giving up the goat? Advice on my EV Project.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) AGM battery life (was Re: What tricks...)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: mooncar on NiCads
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Some Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) one-wheeled EV
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVcort wagon for sale
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) emissions = poorer health
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT: Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: one-wheeled EV
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: mooncar on NiCads
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT: Re: Hydrogen fuel
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Brake Retraction Springs
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) External Regen, was "Tricks to reduce drag"
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Battery at Zero volts?
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Reloacing the Emergency Brake
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: External Regen, was "Tricks to reduce drag"
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Fwd: Brake Retraction Springs
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery at Zero volts?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Relocating the Emergency Brake
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>>> Redline MTL in the transmission made a huge difference, especially
>>> in the winter, where I hadn't needed brakes to stop with the
>>> standard gear oil in there.
>> This gear oil. Is it good enough to handle large amounts of
>> torque on a regular basis without killing the transmission?
John Bryan wrote:
> I believe so, you might want to research it on the net, I came
> across impressive amounts of information about it when I was
> considering it. It's synthetic, so it's able to meet the
> standards of gear oil while being much thinner in viscosity.
I researched this as well. A lubrication engineer I talked to said there
is a problem with gear oils in EVs that gets little mention, and that is
temperature. Most EP (Extreme Pressure) additives are heat-sensitive,
and designed to work best when the oil is hot -- at normal ICE engine
and transmission temperatures. EV transmissions never get hot (if they
do, then they have WAY too much loss!)
If an oil with normal EP additives is run cold (room temperature or
less), it lubricates ok but the EP additives don't stay between the
high-pressure moving parts, like gear teeth. Thus you get higher wear.
He said this is the main reason you shouldn't use motor oils in
gearboxes.
One solution was to add your own EP additives to a good motor oil. They
are produced for industrial users in special-case applications, where a
gearbox is run well away from engine heat, and only used for short
periods of time so it doesn't heat up.
Another (which I used) was to use a good synthetic oil that has EP
additives that work at lower temperatures. You won't find this in the
label or sales literature -- you'll have to call and ask. I used AMSoil
Synthetic Gear Oil 75W-90. This was in my ComutaVan; its GE series DC
motor, contactor controller, and my habit of starting in 2nd gear put a
heavy load on the old Studebaker Lark transmission they used.
The only drawback I found with the synthetic is that it made the
transmission seals swell and leak.
>> Quite a shame regen is so hard to do with DC motors at such
>> a high voltage. Having 30% more range in city driving would
>> be nice. But that's the tradeoff.
Yes; the cheap, easy to get series motors don't do regen very well.
However, I doubt you'll get a 30% improvement in range unless you have a
very unique driving pattern (nothing but stop-and-go, like a mail
truck), or live in an extremely mountainous or hilly area. I've had
regen in a couple of my EVs, and never got more than 10-15% more range
from it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
> A few weeks ago I got a call from the people who have my Ford
> Ranger in NC...
It sounds like it has all the right parts but in the wrong body. The
things that have been fixed, and the ones that still need fixing have
little to do with it being an EV.
So, it would seem the best approach would be to find another Ford Ranger
that is in good condition but with a bad engine; one they can get cheap.
Then transfer all the EV parts to it.
A heater is a simple problem. Modify a 120vac 1500w $20 heater for DC
use. Or, if the old heater core and blower are still in place, add a
little water tank and electric heating element to produce hot water for
it.
Battery insulation is usually easy, too. Add 1" or so of styrafoam
panels , or wrap it in fiberglass. If you drive and charge every day,
waste heat alone should keep them warm in NC.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> How many miles have you put on those Optimas and to what DoD
>> did you typically take them?
> I have somewhere around 9000 miles on them, so not very much. The
> DOD has also been low, typically 50% or so.
I had an interesting discussion on the life of Optimas vs. Hawkers just
yesterday. The candidates:
- 4 Optima YellowTops, maufactured 1997-2000, from Commutercar's Tango.
Low number of cycles, but at very high currents (>1000 amps).
- 16 Hawker SBS-60, mfg. 1997-1999, used in our BEST kid's EVs.
Very low number of cycles, current limited to 30 amps max.
Were used individually; lots of mechanical abuse.
- 20 Hawker Genesis 12V38Ah, mfg. 1996, from US Electricar S-10 pickup.
The "survivors" that still worked from a 52-battery pack.
This is not a large enough sample size for accuracy, and there are many
unknowns in how they were used. But, it is enough to make some general
observations. All are AGMs, all were used in EVs, and none had any
battery management system. They have not been well cared for (i.e. they
have been subjected to overcharging, been run dead, left sitting for
months in a discharged state, etc.)
Leakage
- More than 50% of them have leaked acid, usually around the terminals.
This is evidenced by corroded terminals.
- Some show evidence of leaking around the vents; since there is no
metal here, there is less evidence of how much leakage occurred.
- The amount of acid leakage is *much* smaller than floodeds. They
caused only minor amounts of corrosion in and around the battery
box (in contrast to floodeds, which can destroy a wood or steel box
in 5 years or less).
Cases
- Bulging cases are very common on the Hawkers -- 9 out of 10 had
swelled 1/4" or more in total length. Allow for this in your
battery boxes, or you'll have trouble getting them out!
- Optimas (with their round cells) didn't bulge. However, 3 out of 4
had cracks around the top cover-to-case seal.
- A few Hawkers have the case sides sucked *in*. These batteries were
all low in weight; my theory is that they were overcharged, gassed,
the vents opened to relieve the gas pressure, and then the vents
resealed. The remaining gas inside recombined, leaving a partial
vacuum inside, which sucked in the sides of the case.
- Even with cracked cases, they generally didn't leak significantly.
The SBS-60's had particularly rough treatment; some were dropped,
had holes drilled in them, corners melted from welding, and even
crushed by mounting brackets that split the case down a whole side.
The only way they leaked more than a few ounces of acid is when
they were positioned crack-side down and then charged enough to
pressurize the inside of the case.
Weight
- About half the batteries (of all types) were significantly lighter,
indicating water loss is a common problem. Typical weight loss was
4-12 ounces.
- The other half of the batteries are all essentially identical in
weight (all the same within 1 ounce).
- Evidence of terminal corrosion, venting, and cracks in the case is
a strong indicator of water loss.
- The light batteries tend to have higher voltages at a given state
of charge, and much higher internal resistance (probably from long
term grid corrosion; water loss usually lowers internal resistance).
Capacity
- Most of these batteries still have >50% of their rated amphour
capacity at the 20-hour rate (but remember, we already sorted out
the ones that had failed; these are the survivors).
- 12 of 16 SBS-60's still have >80% of their 20hr rated capacity.
They have had few cycles, and current is limited to <30 amps with
a circuit breaker.
Internal resistance
- All have significantly higher internal resistance, such as 50%
of rated capacity at the 20hr rate, but only 10% at the 1 hr rate.
- While these old batteries have reasonable capacity, their internal
resistance is so high that they would be useless in a high-current
EV (one that draws several 100's of amps).
- For these batteries, there is a direct correlation between ah
capacity and internal resistance. The greater the capacity loss,
the higher its internal resistance.
Water
- Without a balancing system, there are drastic differences between
batteries in an old pack -- so large that some are destroyed while
others still have useful life.
- Water loss is a major problem with these batteries (judging from
weight loss).
- Batteries that hadn't lost weight (i.e. hadn't lost water and/or
somehow managed to avoid overcharging) have the highest capacity
and lowest internal resistance.
- I added water to 3 of the Optimas and 6 of the Hawkers to bring
their weight back up to the same as the "good" ones. This improved
capacity, but not internal resistance. It took 3-5 charge/discharge
cycles for the effects to stabilize (mixing time?).
Conclusions and Ideas
- AGMs are capable of very long calendar life, if they somehow escape
abusive charging or discharging.
- Overcharging is a problem; it vents water, leading to capacity loss
and higher internal resistance.
- A regulating or balancing system can increase life. (Hint: 10 of 12
Concorde AGMs in my EV are now 7 years old, and still deliver 80%
of their rated capacity at the 20-hour, and 70% of their 1-hour
capacity. They have an agressive balancing system).
- High currents do shorten battery life; not directly, but by forcing
you to retire them earlier, when they still have good capacity but
can no longer deliver the high currents you ask.
- If it turns out that ultracapacitor internal resistance does not
increase with age, then ultracapacitors could extend the life of
a lead-acid pack, by supplying high peak currents even with old
batteries.
Food for thought!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> I have a special use EV (under 5 mph at all times, weight of 200#
> +2 riders + 2 deepcycle 12v floodeds)...
Cool! But how do you keep it upright in the wind? (Or do you :-)
I would think you'd want the batteries as low as possible, for ballast.
> I wanted to replace the leadacid bats with the Nicads for
> 1. less weight
> 2. better power to weight ratio
<5 mph and >2 hours a day is a slow discharge rate. Lead-acids are good
at this, and probably your best choice. I would look at nicads only if
you wanted higher speeds and would be discharging them in less than an
hour. If weight is important, just change to a smaller lead-acid
battery.
> I considered making 43" ABS tubes with 21 C cells end-to-end.
> 24V @ 1.8ahr 20 of these would give me 36 ahr.
You would also wind up with 21 x 20 = 420 connections to fail. Think
about the number of times you have had battery powered gadgets where you
had to wiggle or rotate or clean the cells to get them to make contact.
This would be 100 times worse!
If you really want to go with nicads, I think it would be better to buy
a prepackaged 12v or 24v module, made up with the larger flooded nicad
cells.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
>
> I have a perm. magnet motor that I'm using for a go-kart for my son (and
> for me, of course). What kind of controller do I use for this? Would a
> PWM controller for serial motors work?
>
> With the above in mind, does anybody have a schematic/parts list for a
> controller that I could use to build one myself? I'm looking for
> something meeting (or exceeding) the following specs: 12-48V, 20A
> continuous (50-60A peak), reverse switch, and regen would be a nice
> plus. Could I build it for less than I could buy a pre-built
> controller?
I am doing the same for my son. The controller I am using is a
Petrosonic, no ratings, but I'd guess about 24v, 100a max, 30a
continuous. I traced out the schematic, and it is pretty basic. Send me
a stamped self-addressed envelope and I'll send you the schematic.
PM motors have low inductance. This controller is set up for either
series or PM; for series, it uses a low switching frequency which is
smoother and more efficient (but whistles). For PM it uses a high
switching frequency and runs hotter and current limit isn't as robust.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yikes! an EV unicycle (presumably the spelling of the name is not intended as a
warning of potential mishaps)
http://tlb.org/eunicycle.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a Ford EVcort station wagon up on Ebay, like
the one that Meg and I drive, except this one's got
power steering. (We're going to add power steering to
ours.)
See the car at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/186.html
Or see Ebay listing 2496865680. I saw one bid so far,
for $6,200.
Sherry
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The SF Chornicle reported some data showing a link
between auto pollution and higher rates of respiratory
problems in kids. I know, I know -- we all "know"
this, but the government's going to need more data
like this to hold up against car company lawsuits
against emission regulations. I'm glad to see it:
"Respiratory ills in kids linked to traffic
pollution."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/10/20/BAG6O9CO591.DTL
If the link doesn't work, let me know and I'll post
the article.
Sherry
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very sharp summary Bill ! Do you mind if I put this on my web site
verbatim?
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum
and hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step back and
ask, "Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls apart.
You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most economic way
to get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this, you
throw away 50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen
into a fuel-cell car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that
a hybrid car would, if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil
company loves it. They get to sell twice as much per mile driven. It
is also twice as much CO2 per mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at least
twice as far.
Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But we can
figure out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big
research dollars at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so
many hydrogen atoms in each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock
the secret of photosynthesis, there will be no efficient way to make
hydrogen. Batteries will always be more efficient at storing
electricity than hydrogen gas.
Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power and it
will give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on
electrolysis to make it more efficient. There are many many other
areas in alternative fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster
timetable for far less money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil
companies really wouldn't like that, would they.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
You used to be able to go to the EPA Fuel economy site but they
deleted the info on yearly fuel cost. (if someone could find the info
on the Honda FCV it would be apreciated) As I remember it was 1600
dollars a year compared to the Nissan Altra whick is 330 dollars per
year. Hydrogen is a poor fuel storage medium. The hydrogen must be
cracked taking energy. It must then be compressed which takes
energy. Because of this if you used for instance solar to do all this
you would need four times the solar cells to go the same distance you
would get from just using batteries.
I believe, fuel cells proponents position is not the cost of it per mile
or efficiency
of making it. Yes, you can go twice as far if you use electricity
directly, but the
problem is you cannot store that much electricity on board at one time to go
that far. Like regular gas - the most ineficient use of that energy (25%
ICE efficiency),
but the energy density is so much higher than offsetts battery advantage for
average Joe distance wise - it is trivial to make 1000 mile on one large
enough tank,
and refueling time is negligible. Same for hydrogen - you can have many more
kWh *on board* than today's battery can hold with large enough tank.
Doesn't matter
that you spend 4 times energy *making* this hydrogen, this happens outside
the car. They are discussing *cars*, so the argument is skewed to an EV
disadvantage -
low energy density storage, not energy from prime source per mile.
Say, ALL prime energy is free (depreciated solar), stored in batteries
or in hydrogen.
You can realistically have 50 kWh *on board* with batteries and 200 kWh
or more
with hydrogen - as much as big tank you dare to put in. AND, fast
refill. End of [their]
argument (about *car*).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
>Say, ALL prime energy is free (depreciated solar), stored in batteries
>or in hydrogen.
>You can realistically have 50 kWh *on board* with batteries and 200
kWh
>or more
>with hydrogen - as much as big tank you dare to put in. AND, fast
>refill. End of [their]
>argument (about *car*).
What state is the hydrogen in? If it's a compressed gas, I don't see
how they're going to get that much range out of the car. We have CNG
(compressed natural gas) vehicles here at the City and their range is
terrible - no one wants to drive them because they have to keep
refueling after just a few miles. You can only cram so much gas into a
reinforced cylinder. Or does hydrogen somehow have a higher energy
density? If the state is liquid hydrogen, the potential for fire and
explosion is very high. How do they propose to transport this fuel to
the refueling stations and who is going to refuel the cars? If your
average person is going to refuel a car with liquid hydrogen, I say
that's a recipe for disaster.
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
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--- Begin Message ---
My feeling is that the only way that hydrogen can work
as fuel is in a grid hybrid system. Where the car is
basically electric except for long trips. I think that
is the only way we can save enough energy to make up
for the inefficiencies of using and making hydrogen.
Gadget
--- Patrick Maston
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Victor wrote:
>
> >Say, ALL prime energy is free (depreciated solar),
> stored in batteries
>
> >or in hydrogen.
> >You can realistically have 50 kWh *on board* with
> batteries and 200
> kWh
> >or more
> >with hydrogen - as much as big tank you dare to put
> in. AND, fast
> >refill. End of [their]
> >argument (about *car*).
>
> What state is the hydrogen in? If it's a compressed
> gas, I don't see
> how they're going to get that much range out of the
> car. We have CNG
> (compressed natural gas) vehicles here at the City
> and their range is
> terrible - no one wants to drive them because they
> have to keep
> refueling after just a few miles. You can only cram
> so much gas into a
> reinforced cylinder. Or does hydrogen somehow have a
> higher energy
> density? If the state is liquid hydrogen, the
> potential for fire and
> explosion is very high. How do they propose to
> transport this fuel to
> the refueling stations and who is going to refuel
> the cars? If your
> average person is going to refuel a car with liquid
> hydrogen, I say
> that's a recipe for disaster.
>
> Patrick Maston
> 1981 Jet Electrica
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
having attempted to ride a unicycle on several occasions i can with experience state
that it is the swiftest metod of falling over known to man
the prospect of hitting a rock at 20mph is almost unthinkable
unless the gyroscope provides more force than my 95kilo body at the top speed of the
vehicle you can keep it.
Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
yikes! an EV unicycle (presumably the spelling of the name is not intended as a
warning of potential mishaps)
http://tlb.org/eunicycle.html
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
having just scrapped a few ups units i was delighted to find 7AH lead cells inside all
in good condition
this sort of thing could be a cheap power source for you if you only need low power
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Roger wrote:
> I have a special use EV (under 5 mph at all times, weight of 200#
> +2 riders + 2 deepcycle 12v floodeds)...
Cool! But how do you keep it upright in the wind? (Or do you :-)
I would think you'd want the batteries as low as possible, for ballast.
> I wanted to replace the leadacid bats with the Nicads for
> 1. less weight
> 2. better power to weight ratio
<5 mph and >2 hours a day is a slow discharge rate. Lead-acids are good
at this, and probably your best choice. I would look at nicads only if
you wanted higher speeds and would be discharging them in less than an
hour. If weight is important, just change to a smaller lead-acid
battery.
> I considered making 43" ABS tubes with 21 C cells end-to-end.
> 24V @ 1.8ahr 20 of these would give me 36 ahr.
You would also wind up with 21 x 20 = 420 connections to fail. Think
about the number of times you have had battery powered gadgets where you
had to wiggle or rotate or clean the cells to get them to make contact.
This would be 100 times worse!
If you really want to go with nicads, I think it would be better to buy
a prepackaged 12v or 24v module, made up with the larger flooded nicad
cells.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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--- Begin Message ---
to hell with fuel cells what we need is better batteries
there is after all pleanty of free electricity about , it's just storing it is the
problem
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Very sharp summary Bill ! Do you mind if I put this on my web site
verbatim?
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
>
>> I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum
>> and hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
>>
>> I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
>
>
> Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step back and
> ask, "Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls apart.
>
> You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most economic way
> to get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this, you
> throw away 50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen
> into a fuel-cell car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that
> a hybrid car would, if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil
> company loves it. They get to sell twice as much per mile driven. It
> is also twice as much CO2 per mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
>
> If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
> electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at least
> twice as far.
>
> Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But we can
> figure out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big
> research dollars at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so
> many hydrogen atoms in each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock
> the secret of photosynthesis, there will be no efficient way to make
> hydrogen. Batteries will always be more efficient at storing
> electricity than hydrogen gas.
>
> Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power and it
> will give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on
> electrolysis to make it more efficient. There are many many other
> areas in alternative fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster
> timetable for far less money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil
> companies really wouldn't like that, would they.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O'
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I believe, fuel cells proponents position is not the cost of
> it per mile or efficiency of making it. Yes, you can go twice
> as far if you use electricity directly, but the problem is you
> cannot store that much electricity on board at one time to go
> that far.
> Same for hydrogen - you can have many more kWh *on board*
> than today's battery can hold with large enough tank.
> You can realistically have 50 kWh *on board* with
> batteries and 200 kWh or more with hydrogen - as much
> as big tank you dare to put in. AND, fast refill.
I would argue a slightly different take, which is that it is irrelevant
how many kWh of energy you can store on board, all that is important is
how far you can go on however much energy you have stored.
In this case, the efficiency advantage of the battery EV helps to offset
the lower energy density of present batteries since it is entirely
possible to have a 300mi EV today using LiIon batteries for storage and
yet present FCEVs are limited to about the same range (or less!) due to
the difficulty of storing sufficient hydrogen onboard.
It is unfortunately the case that FCEVs will always have an edge in
terms of refill speed, however, with energy-dense storage such aa LiIon,
the battery pack weight decreases and may reduce the physical challenges
associated with battery pack swapping such that it becomes a practical
option for fast battery 'refils'.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do I rig brake retraction springs on front disk brakes?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if you use a 240V alternator head from a portable generator and use
the battery charger as the controller.
Perhaps field control the alternator to avoid excessive load and when
the batteries are full the charger will draw less and less.
Would an external heater and fan like a diesel/eletric train then be
needed? 4000ft is a lot of potential.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
An EV with looks like that would be sure to grab attention
to the car, and at gas stations with the hood propped open,
tempt people to take a look at what’s in there, causing
some to promptly scream: "What the f*** is that!?" I hear
EVs get a lot of attention in scenarios like this. Imagine
taking it to get 'emissions checked'.
Oh its to bad you aren't close to my EV Buggy. There is no hood to
open - the motor is in your face. I get the strangest looks, lots of
questions (often while driving), and plenty of attention. Sometimes
they wonder if I have a turbine engine in the Buggy (that may be my
driving style).
Tossing out some attitude is fun :-)
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Curiousity leads me to wonder just what you have to do to a 12-volt PbA
battery so that its resting voltage is 0.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another possibility is Zinc-air fuel cells (which, I know, some would argue
aren't real fuel cells). Zinc-air cells have about the same energy density
as Li-ion, so 300 miles is achievable. Plus, using something like Metallic
Power's (www.metallicpower.com) scheme, they could be refueled in about 5
minutes. The big infrastructure change required would be replacing gas
pumps with zinc pellet pumps--not all that difficult.
Down the road, if anyone could perfect the Aluminum-air fuel cell, range
could increase to over 800 miles, maybe more. Similar refueling scheme to
zinc-air.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I believe, fuel cells proponents position is not the cost of
> it per mile or efficiency of making it. Yes, you can go twice
> as far if you use electricity directly, but the problem is you
> cannot store that much electricity on board at one time to go
> that far.
> Same for hydrogen - you can have many more kWh *on board*
> than today's battery can hold with large enough tank.
> You can realistically have 50 kWh *on board* with
> batteries and 200 kWh or more with hydrogen - as much
> as big tank you dare to put in. AND, fast refill.
I would argue a slightly different take, which is that it is irrelevant
how many kWh of energy you can store on board, all that is important is
how far you can go on however much energy you have stored.
In this case, the efficiency advantage of the battery EV helps to offset
the lower energy density of present batteries since it is entirely
possible to have a 300mi EV today using LiIon batteries for storage and
yet present FCEVs are limited to about the same range (or less!) due to
the difficulty of storing sufficient hydrogen onboard.
It is unfortunately the case that FCEVs will always have an edge in
terms of refill speed, however, with energy-dense storage such aa LiIon,
the battery pack weight decreases and may reduce the physical challenges
associated with battery pack swapping such that it becomes a practical
option for fast battery 'refils'.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To make room for a couple extra batteries, I'm considering removing the
pull-up emergency brake between the driver and passenger seats and rerouting
the cable to replace it with either a pedal type, or a straight-pull type
under the dashboard. Are there any legal or technical issues I need to
consider? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thinking a little further along this line, if you were just interested in
saving brake wear and not regenerating, could you just burn off the
electricity from the alternator across some large, heat-sinked resistors or
transistors?
Bill Dennis
>What if you use a 240V alternator head from a portable generator and use
>the battery charger as the controller.
>Perhaps field control the alternator to avoid excessive load and when
>the batteries are full the charger will draw less and less.
>Would an external heater and fan like a diesel/eletric train then be
>needed? 4000ft is a lot of potential.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How do I rig brake retraction springs on front disk brakes?
>
Actually, you shouldn't need retraction springs for disc brakes. By design disc pads
retract when
you take your foot off the pedal. There is a square o-ring that provides a seal
between the disc
brake piston and the caliper body. Think of it like a piston ring in an ICE, but made
of rubber.
The rubber ring fits in a slot in the piston and slides along the cylinder wall. As
you press on
the brake the piston is forced out of its cylinder to provide braking action. The
piston bone is
connected to the pad bone, that pad bone is connected to the disc bone. (Oops! Sorry!
Got carried
away.) But, because of the friction between the ring and the cylinder wall and the
flexibility of
the rubber, the ring deforms and doesn't really go as far as the piston. When the
fluid pressure
behind the piston is released the rubber ring pulls the piston back, just a hair. It
doesn't have
to go very far to essentially relieve all the friction between the pad and disc. We're
talking
maybe a few thousands of clearance, but it's as good free. In theory, of course.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:52:00 -0600, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Another possibility is Zinc-air fuel cells (which, I know, some would argue
>aren't real fuel cells). Zinc-air cells have about the same energy density
>as Li-ion, so 300 miles is achievable. Plus, using something like Metallic
>Power's (www.metallicpower.com) scheme, they could be refueled in about 5
>minutes. The big infrastructure change required would be replacing gas
>pumps with zinc pellet pumps--not all that difficult.
Ah, the power of vaporware. A proven formula:
Make up a catchy name for the latest flavor of Improbable Technology.
Find some college prof to prostitute his name to your venture.
Put up a flashy web site making all sorts of forward-looking statements
Soak the investors
Repeat as often as necessary to make a career.
Sorry, I've seen too many of these to take any of 'em seriously.
Changing subjects, I'm curious as to whether anyone has anything
EV-related to talk about here. All I've seen for the last couple of days
has been this hydrogen babble.
Ob EV chat: I picked up two more CitiCars this weekend. One's a stripper
but the other is in pretty good shape. It will make a nice spare. Or,
given my size (6'7") maybe I could wear one on each foot :-)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:52:19 -0400, James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Curiousity leads me to wonder just what you have to do to a 12-volt PbA
>battery so that its resting voltage is 0.
Run it completely down and then:
a) lay a short across the terminals and leave it there for a few days.
b) drain out all the electrolyte.
c) neutralize the electrolyte by adding soda or aqua ammonia.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You should consider the Emergency break lever from a Pontiac Fiero. It
sits on the left side of the driver's seat. You pull it up to activate
it and it folds down without releasing the break if you don't hold the
button down.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Reloacing the Emergency Brake
To make room for a couple extra batteries, I'm considering removing the
pull-up emergency brake between the driver and passenger seats and
rerouting
the cable to replace it with either a pedal type, or a straight-pull
type
under the dashboard. Are there any legal or technical issues I need to
consider? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, it's not vaporware. Metallic Power currently markets Zinc-Air
fuel cells as generators, UPS, etc. But as part of the investment money
they received to develop their product, they had to show a working vehicle
using the fuel cell. They did. They rigged up a car (quiet ugly, I might
add) with a 1500W zinc-air fuel cell and got it to run 100 miles at 45 MPH.
After that, though, they dropped their development for EVs to concentrate on
the UPS market.
Some other firms besides Metallic Power have working versions of Zinc-Air
fuel cell busses in daily operation, especially in China. I mentioned
Metallic Power mainly because their systems calls for refueling with
pellets, whereas most other firms require the zinc anode to be removed and
shipped back to a factory for recharging.
So my attitude is: be wary, sure, but not dismissive.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:52:00 -0600, "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Another possibility is Zinc-air fuel cells (which, I know, some would argue
>aren't real fuel cells). Zinc-air cells have about the same energy density
>as Li-ion, so 300 miles is achievable. Plus, using something like Metallic
>Power's (www.metallicpower.com) scheme, they could be refueled in about 5
>minutes. The big infrastructure change required would be replacing gas
>pumps with zinc pellet pumps--not all that difficult.
Ah, the power of vaporware. A proven formula:
Make up a catchy name for the latest flavor of Improbable Technology.
Find some college prof to prostitute his name to your venture.
Put up a flashy web site making all sorts of forward-looking statements
Soak the investors
Repeat as often as necessary to make a career.
Sorry, I've seen too many of these to take any of 'em seriously.
Changing subjects, I'm curious as to whether anyone has anything
EV-related to talk about here. All I've seen for the last couple of days
has been this hydrogen babble.
Ob EV chat: I picked up two more CitiCars this weekend. One's a stripper
but the other is in pretty good shape. It will make a nice spare. Or,
given my size (6'7") maybe I could wear one on each foot :-)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
