EV Digest 3889
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Battery Box Gauge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Scooter battery balancer ( Prelim Data Conclusions)
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motorcycle Range, speed, Re: Motorcycle transmissions
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Rf Tags
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Running clutchless?
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Scooter battery balancer ( Prelim Data Conclusions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Help! Fave brands/combin. of vac. pumps/switches?
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Box Gauge
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Help! Fave brands/combin. of vac. pumps/switches?
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Help! Fave brands/combin. of vac. pumps/switches?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutchless
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery Strings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Stm 180 nicad charging
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Stm 180 nicad charging
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Gel Cel Etiquette
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Great big switch
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Lightning Ryan wrote:
>
>> That sounds even better...
>> How cheap/simple can the charge controller be?
>> Does the PFC do this? We know it does profiles...
>>
> PFC does more than this.
> If Rich would sell just power stages with separate voltage and current
limit
> control inputs (nothing else) that would be it.
If he did, it would most likely not be any cheaper. What you describe
above is the "hard part" of the entire charger! And the vast majority of
the hardware cost. I bet it represents 90% of the hardware cost, and at
least 90% of the development effort. Thinking about it, most likely more.
> I know, but preferrably isolated.
I seem to remember when Rich started the design of his charger, he asked
the group how important different features were. I believe the conclusion
was that most people were not willing to pay the cost (in terms of
dollars, size, and weight) for an isolated charger. I would prefer it
too, but I don't think I'd be willing to pay 25% more for it (in terms of
$s, weight and volume). 10%, yes, 20%, I'd have to think about it.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Did the lids have an overlap lid, like a shoebox?
Yes; exactly. The bottom 5-sided box is about 24" x 24" x 12". The cover
fit over it, and has a 1" lip on the 4 sides.
> Was there a gasket?
No, but it is a snug fit.
> Did you use those snap-down buckles (I dunno what they're called) to
> hold the tops on?
Yes. The steel rack has 4 long threaded rods in the corners of the box.
The straps go across the top of the box, and are bolted down via these
steel rods. These both hold the cover on and keep the box in the rack.
> How did you handle weatherproofing where the cables entered/exited?
The cables enter the box thru slots in the rear upper edge (about the at
the center of the windshield). They are a snug fit, but not sealed or
waterproofed in any way. The location makes extremely likely that
anything could ever splash in. The gap is too small for anything bigger
than a bug to crawl in.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Ok; then their voltage is not yet stable; it was still changing. This
> means that any predictions you make about their state of charge based on
> voltage are not particularly accurate.
>
After several days of sitting, the combined pack voltage was 25.99 volts.
Compared to the 2nd table you provided, that would indicate a mere sckosh of
overcharge. Or perhaps my DVM is off by .01 volts, which may not be an
unrealistic possibility, given that it's a 12 year old meter costing $40.00
at Radio Shack.
> > What is the rule on what voltage equates to 25% charged and does
> > it vary according to size or difference between SLA AGM's and
> > flooded Pba's?
> For sealed lead-acids, the numbers are a bit higher. Again, the voltage
> will be more for brand new cells, lower for old ones.
>
> 100% SOC 2.15v/cell
> 75% SOC 2.09v/cell
> 50% SOC 2.04v/cell
> 25% SOC 1.99v/cell
> 0% SOC 1.93v/cell
>
> > I have figured 11 volts to be fully discharged on my batteries on
> > the bike and the scooter both.
>
> The generally accepted voltage UNDER LOAD for a dead battery is
> 1.75v/cell (10.5v for a 12v battery). But 11v with NO load is very, very
> dead; down into the region where you are likely to reverse cells and
> permanently damage the battery.
>
I am going to add a digital voltmeter to the scooter so I can keep an eye on
the loaded voltage. I've never seen the NO LOAD voltage below 12 volts on
the scooter pack, so I will assume that I've not damaged the batteries yet.
> Most consumer-grade chargers provide essentially worthless indicators of
> the battery's actual state of charge.
>
I agree. I also have two identical chargers, same company, and they seem to
vary by 0.2 volts or more from each other.
> I think your best bet is to measure what each of your chargers actually
> does. Then, decide what the "full" point really is for each. When you
> use that charger, stop at this full point, regardless of what the
> charger's indicators may say.>
For a given battery that has cyclic and stand-by voltages specified, that
should be relatively easy. I will compare that to the SOC tables to ensure
that they agree more or less. For a battery, like my scooter pack, there is
no specifications on the battery. I think it may be better to slightly
undercharge, in other words, to go with a lower decided ~full point~ to
avoid excess charging and the damage of grid corrosion. Is that a good plan
in your opinion?
I'll pass the other info onto others who seem to be as puzzled, misled and
charge challenged as I am. Thanks for the extensive dissertation on battery
charging Lee. I think it's likely one of the most critical factors in our
realm of hobbying and energy independance.
BTW, do you know where a person might get an attractive set of analog meters
with chrome housings? I would expect that someone sells voltmeters that go
to 30 volts, paired with 60 Amp ammeters, but have turned up nothing in my
seasrching over the past weeks. My next best plan is to use an automotive
grade ammeter and a totally different voltmeter caliberated to 50 volts FS.
I recently saw a photo of one of Deafscooters creations and it appeared that
he had such a gauge duo and it gave a nice finished appearance. Trying to
avoid the science project look these days. ;-))
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > I'd love to see the same tests done by other people
> > on other bikes.
> >
> > Anyone with a running electric motorcycle have any
> > hard power vs. speed
> > measurements?
> >
> > Mike Shipway
Here's some data from my machine. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/518.html
Mark T.
mph watts
17 690
33 2076
44 4495
55 8424
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee is absolutly correct, distance would not be desired. As I think
about it rfid tags would only be of use in an inductive paddle , 1"
(range are also avail) but probably wouldn't work cause of the
interferance, bad idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seen someone was looking for an epoxy to do glue permanent magnets back
into the barrel. All I can say is good freaking luck. My self and over 50
other rebuild shops have tried this, and with epoxys design for this vary
task. I do not know of one person that has yet to be successful.
I think, do not know for sure, that when the motors were originally
constructed, the magnets were not charged until after they were installed.
But for whatever reason, we have never seen anything work at reinstalling
them. Thousands of PMGR starter barrels are thrown each day because there is
no way of fixing/repairing/rebuilding them.
What we do with the motors that are too expensive to throw away, is simply
return them to the original manufacturer for the repair. If they say they
won't, contact me and I will try and find a large enough shop that can make
the repair. I.e. install a new magnet and charge it.
Raymond
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BSUEV has a clutch , but I drive it without using it. It just takes
an extra second or two to get the gears syncronized. It's nice to have a
manual shift without having to be a master clutcher!
-Jon Glauser
jon.silvercheetah.net/bsuev/index.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick wrote:
> After several days of sitting, the combined pack voltage was 25.99
> volts. Compared to the 2nd table you provided, that would indicate
> a mere sckosh of overcharge.
Good. Sounds like you're getting it sorted out.
> For a battery, like my scooter pack, there is no specifications on
> the battery.
That's right. Without information to the contrary from the manufacturer,
you just use the generic voltages I gave for the type battery it is.
> I think it may be better to slightly undercharge, in other words,
> to go with a lower decided ~full point~ to avoid excess charging
> and the damage of grid corrosion. Is that a good plan in your
> opinion?
Yes. In general, undercharging will do less damage to sealed lead-acids
than overcharging. You can do a slight overcharge once in a while, as
needed, to keep the cells balanced.
> BTW, do you know where a person might get an attractive set of
> analog meters with chrome housings?
"Attractive" is a judgement call. I'd haunt the surplus dealers until
you find something that looks good to you. Many analog meters can be
disassembled and have a new face put in. You might look for something
like this. And, the same basic meter movement (like 0-1 ma) can be used
for both voltmeters (with an appropriate series resistor) and ammeters
(with an appropriate shunt).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
> That sounds even better...
> How cheap/simple can the charge controller be?
> Does the PFC do this? We know it does profiles...
>
> It would have to be "attractive" to EVery users.
> As simple as a single overvoltage/regulator control.
> Up to a Regulator add on interface.
> All the way to a highly intigrated BMS.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> PS. Talk about versitility, Dumb, Profiled, Remote controlled, ...
> AC-DC, DC-DC, Up or Down, Wow... ( Can't wait till I need one! )
>
Ryan..
All these goodies don't come in one box.
Nor a cheap box
Nor a small Box.
These are features on a $15K to 25K$ charger... It's not a simple standalone
charger....
It's the Monster charger...
It's being designed for Rapid Fleet service charging.
It will be the most expensive thing I have buildt by a factor of 10.
IT BETTER have some snort and features !
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can also recommend the Brusa pump that Victor sells.
I've had one in my Insight for 18 months (ever since converted), and
have had absolutely no trouble at all with it. It makes a little noise
when you first turn on the car and sometimes after using the brakes to
stop (I use regen braking most of the time). However, after about 10
seconds it is off. It has mountings that absorb the vibration.
It is also very simple to install. Just connect it to the brake vacuum
line (and a 2 liter tank is best practice), and add 12VDC. Done.
BTW, in the Insight I used the 2 liter "resonator" located in front of
the left front tire. I have no idea what a resonator is, but since I'm
not using the ICE it is no longer used. Makes a great 2 liter tank after
plugging a pin hole with a screw. Fittings for the vacuum hose here
obtained from the Home Depot plumbing dept.
Anyway, the Brusa pump is an easy way to get this done.
Best of luck on getting back on the road!
Gary
===============================================
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:44 am
Subject: Re: Help! Fave brands/combin. of vac. pumps/switches?
Yahoo! Personals Yahoo! Personals
I'm a:
Seeking a:
Age:
to
City or ZIP:
Just get a BRUSA pump ($309 as of today) which includes contactless
switch too. Light, quiet and reliable; you could of gotten it in a first
place...
Yes, I am satisfied about noise level. I can only hear it when not in
motion.
Yes, I' am satisfied with amount of actuations - one for every two
depressions (no tank) but I don't really know since can't heat it anyway.
Thus don't really care.
Yes, you might think I'm biased, but I'm replying because it is indeed
good product and I'm happy customer myself, not because I sell it.
Well, all I can suggest is just ask others on the list who use it.
Victor
Bob Bath wrote:
>You may remember on my last post that I had a pump
>turning on every brake depression. I have a Thomas,
>which is noisy, and now have found out that the switch
>which came with it, cuts in at 20. That gives me just
>2" Hg of wiggle room between actuations. No wonder!
>
>So I swapped out the one for one from EV parts. No
>matter how I seem to set it, it has the same issues.
>Now to top it off, since I've added a relay, I get
>chattering (a half-cycle on the pump, then it switches
>off, then on for a half-cycle in 10 seconds or so).
>
>The Rabbit used another manufacturer. I swear, I
>must've gotten 4 actuations or so.
>
>The point is, I put $300 or so in for the Thomas
>setup, $25 in for a different switch. $300 in for
>what I thought might be a faulty brake booster. Now
>I'm about to spend $210 for a new vac. pump, and $95
>for a square D switch.
>
>What are you using. Answer please only if satisfied
>with noise levels, and # of actuations.
>Thanks _so_ much! I _REALLY_ want to get this rig
>back on the freakin' ROAD!!!
>Sign me,
>Grinless in So. OR.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Don,
Yes, all the indicators and switches work and control different functions.
Every circuit in the EV is kept seperated by switch control, which is also
fuse seperated with Buss Limitron fuses design for that interupting would be
consider as branch circuits.
Feeder circuits than come from a build in circuit breaker panel which are
pop in circuit breakers into a standard fuse clip.
There are backup circuits and switches for each system, that may go into
trouble. There are circuit indicators that show when the circuit is
activated and blown fuse indicators.
The indicators on the center of the dash plates are:
E-meter
Vacuum Ind. at the vacuum pump
Vacuum Ind. after the vacuum check values
Controller Heat Sink temperture.
Controller coolent temperture.
Heating water temperture
Inverter-alternator voltage
Inverter-alternator ampere
12 volt charge voltage
12 volt charge ampere
DC-AC Invertor input DC voltage
DC-AC Invertor output AC voltage
Main battery volt meter
Main battery amp meter
Motor Amp meter
Elasp time clock for motor on time
Elasp time clock for EV drive time
Tachometer
Odometer
Control switches on dash are:
Idle control (the rotating alternator-inverter unit
needs to be at 600 RPM for generation
Inverter Control
DC power to Inverter
Inverter - Commercial power selector switch
(can preheat heaters with commercial pw)
Auto - Manual heating control
1000 watt hot water heating control
840 watt passenger side heating control
620 watt driver side heating control
The switches on the console are for each seperated electrical circuits in
the EV, unlike auto companys the combine them all together into selector
switches.
These includes:
Heating and A/C Fan control power
High speed fan
Med speed fan
Low speed fan
A/C power
Heating floor duct power
Heating defroster duct power
Heat adjustments
Cooling adjustments
Bi-level control
Windsheld wiper high
Windsheld wiper med
Windsheld wiper low
Windsheld washer
On the lower console are switches for:
Alarm system panel
Parking lights
Head lights
Interial lights
Backup lights
Indicator lights
Door Ajar Ind.
Map light
Radar
Danger - warning indicator
Start switch power
Start switch power back up (by pass)
Ignition switch power
Ignition switch power back up (by pass)
Controller power (12 volt)
Controller power (12 volt) back up
Controller cooling Fan
Motor cooling Fan
Radiator cooling fan for water cool controller
Vacuum control
Vacuum control backup
Alarm power
Tape Recorder Power
Rear Hatch Latch
Remote Control doors and hatch control
Window control power
Sound system power
Remote Sound system controller
Indicator system:
All circuits that are activated light up a panel indicator. Circuit that
are not working or fuse blowns also indicates in the fuse blown indicators
and on the control switches.
Fuse and protections system.
Each single seperated circuits that branch of a main feeder is fused with a
Buss Limitron fuse that is design for that type of circuit. Each feeder
circuit is protected with plug in circuit breakers that clip into standard
fuse holders.
The fuse panels are than protected by bolt in main limitron fuse from its
power source.
There is also a seperated control and fuse system that is in the back of the
EV next to the battery charger compartment, which can control many of the
functions in the EV with commercial power while the main power plug is in.
There is a large cable duct that runs inside the EV from the rear controls
to the dash and to the motor bay.
Each power and control circuits in its own separate flexible conduit with
shielding for control wire.
The wires do not go directly to a component. They first go to a large
industrial type set screw terminal block sections that can be made up from
18 gage to 4/0 wire size in any length you want.
>From these terminal blocks, the take off are than to each componets.
Some of the components have Power Anderson gang plugs on them, so I can
remove anyone of the components or switch console plates by just unpluging
it.
The dash plate on either side of the steering wheel can be high down, so you
don't have to craw under the dash. All dash and circuit components are wire
with wire type MTW mutistrand 600 volt rated wire, that is design for
chassic and panel work.
Should not used thwn or thnn type that is normally using for pulling into
metal conduit. This has a thin nylon coating design for pulling, but not
for laying over panels. The MTW type have a thicker jacket and the wire is
more flexible.
In driving this EV since I modified in 1985, I had only one fuse blown, a
3.5 amp controller fuse, which I was be able to bypass while I was driving
the EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: Battery Box Gauge
> Roland, very nice, clean job! Do those switches actually do something or
> largely for show? I like the idea of individual gauges and aircraft style
> indicator lights for this vintage of a car. Do you have the indicator
> lights with custom text (e.g. "Controller Temp" or "Accessory Battery
> Low")?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: October 30, 2004 6:18 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Battery Box Gauge
>
> You should build a heavy enough battery box out of metal or very thick
> fiberglass, if fasten directly to the frame of a vehicle.
>
> If the box is inside the vehicle, you can get by with 1/4 inch plastic or
> fiberglass.
>
> My battery boxes are a double container type. The first outside container,
> is the sheet metal enclosure which is part of the EV structure.
>
> In case of lot of open areas, I used 1/8 neoprene rubber skirting around
> the
> suspension components to prevent splase up.
>
> The inside box which is about 4 inchs away from the other box, is made out
> of 1/4 inch expoxy coated fiberglass.
>
> I went to a fiberglass company and had them made up fiberglass sheets in
> 1/4
> inch by 4 feet by 8 feet dimensions. I assemble them by cutting them to
> size and reinforceing the corners on the outside with fiberglass 1/4 angle
> pieces they also made up.
>
> The top edge of the boxes also had a 1/4 inch by 2 by 2 inch angle attach
> to
> it, to perform a 2 inch lip that goes outward from the edge.
>
> The top covers on the inside box, is a 1/4 inch fiberglass sheet that is
> hinge. It seals to the box lip by a double seal 4 rib type close foam
> rubber strip .
>
> The inside cover overlaps this edge about a inch, leaving about 1 inch of
> this lip expose.
>
> >From this 1 inch expose lip on the battery box, there is another cover
> >with
> rubber seals that is fasten down on the inside lip to the out side lip of
> the out side box.
>
> There is a 4 inch gutter space between the inside box and out side box or
> enclosure of the EV. This space is used for cable and wire channels and
> exhaust and intake air flexible 1/4 inch PVC hoses.
>
> The entry holes in these boxes have glue in PVC plumbing type fittings
> that
> are like chase nipples to smooth out these entries.
>
> After the cables go through these entries, I used 3-M windsheld putty
> which
> I pack around the cables at these entries. This comes in 1/8 inch strips
> which are very sticky. I find its better than electrical duct putty which
> is not as sticky.
>
> Then there is another top cover that covers the whole top unit. This top
> cover is built just like a trunk of a car. There is a verticle 20 gage
> steel edge that has trunk type weather stripping that goes over this edge.
>
> This top covers also hinges. It could be the whole bed of a pickup box,
> that hinges and performs this top second weather seal.
>
> My top cover is a hatch cover over the bed of the pickup box.
>
> In your search engine, see:
>
> Roland Wiench 1977 El Camino Electro I
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery Box Gauge
>
>
> > Did the lids have an overlap lid, like a shoebox? Was there a gasket?
> > Did you use those snap-down buckles (I dunno what they're called) to
> > hold the tops on? How did you handle weatherproofing where the cables
> > entered / exited?
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > >Eric Poulsen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Any recommendations for battery boxes that might be exposed to rain or
> > >>splashes?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >All of the ones I described are "out in the weather", and subjected to
> > >rain, snow, mud, dust, etc.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The controller is not the expensive part of the PFC chargers.
The PFC control power PCB is. It's where the magic is.
The controller PCB is a bunch of analog setpoints and digital timers. This
is what gives it a profile. But... we only look at volts amps and time.
There is no micro to mix and match in anyway needed.
The PC based interface on the Monster charger has all the software
features we can think up.
The current monster charger/cylcer i nterface is a laptop running DOS, and
$1000 worth of RS-485 modules, and alot of glue software, and wire harneses
to the chargers.
So the Brainy controller cost me about $2500.
This is without profit or the final spit and pollish meters and displays.
It can do anything but it's not pretty, cheap, compact.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
> > Lightning Ryan wrote:
> >
> >> That sounds even better...
> >> How cheap/simple can the charge controller be?
> >> Does the PFC do this? We know it does profiles...
> >>
> > PFC does more than this.
>
>
> > If Rich would sell just power stages with separate voltage and current
> limit
> > control inputs (nothing else) that would be it.
>
> If he did, it would most likely not be any cheaper. What you describe
> above is the "hard part" of the entire charger! And the vast majority of
> the hardware cost. I bet it represents 90% of the hardware cost, and at
> least 90% of the development effort. Thinking about it, most likely more.
>
> > I know, but preferrably isolated.
>
> I seem to remember when Rich started the design of his charger, he asked
> the group how important different features were. I believe the conclusion
> was that most people were not willing to pay the cost (in terms of
> dollars, size, and weight) for an isolated charger. I would prefer it
> too, but I don't think I'd be willing to pay 25% more for it (in terms of
> $s, weight and volume). 10%, yes, 20%, I'd have to think about it.
>
> >
> > Victor
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can also recommend the Brusa pump that Victor
> sells.
me too!
-Sam
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. Ok, could the problem possibly be not that the vacuum pump is not
pulling deep enough, but that you don't have enough of a vacuum reservoir?
Maybe you need to add one. If you're running a Rabbit you can put in the
factory "egg crate" one that went under the hood.
Chris
Bob Bath wrote:
You may remember on my last post that I had a pump
turning on every brake depression. I have a Thomas,
which is noisy, and now have found out that the switch
which came with it, cuts in at 20. That gives me just
2" Hg of wiggle room between actuations. No wonder!
So I swapped out the one for one from EV parts. No
matter how I seem to set it, it has the same issues.
Now to top it off, since I've added a relay, I get
chattering (a half-cycle on the pump, then it switches
off, then on for a half-cycle in 10 seconds or so).
The Rabbit used another manufacturer. I swear, I
must've gotten 4 actuations or so.
The point is, I put $300 or so in for the Thomas
setup, $25 in for a different switch. $300 in for
what I thought might be a faulty brake booster. Now
I'm about to spend $210 for a new vac. pump, and $95
for a square D switch.
What are you using. Answer please only if satisfied
with noise levels, and # of actuations.
Thanks _so_ much! I _REALLY_ want to get this rig
back on the freakin' ROAD!!!
Sign me,
Grinless in So. OR.
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. Can this be used with another controller or charger to
provide regenerative braking? I understand there might be a brush
timing issue, but is there a way to do that?
Thanks.
Tim
-------
> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 23:30:10 -0700
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Clutchless
>
> Bill Dennis wrote:
> > Since the 1st part of my daily commute is 5.5 miles downhill, regen
> > wouldn't do me much good.
>
> Understood -- there's no room in the batteries to put the captured
> energy.
>
> > But I would indeed like to use motor braking to save wear and
> > tear on the brakes. Can you show a quick diagram of how this
> > braking resistor would be connected in a DC motor/Curtis
> > controller setup, and a possibly what rating you would recommend
> > for the resistor?
>
> There are several ways to do this.
>
> Plug braking
> ------------
> Curtis controllers usually have "plug braking". Their manual shows how
> to wire it up. Basically, you have a reversing contactor reverse the
> field, and a diode that shorts out the armature. Now, when the
> controller applies current to the motor, it causes the armature to act
> as a generator. The energy is shorted by the internal diodes on A2.
> Unfortunately, these diodes are small (like half the size of the normal
> freewheel diodes), so the braking current is necessarily small to keep
> from frying them. This form of plug braking adds a little bit of drag,
> like engine braking on an ICE.
>
> Dynamic braking
> ---------------
> This is when you have a big resistor to burn up the braking energy as
> heat. The simplest scheme is to add a contactor and resistor in series,
> right across the motor armature. When you want motor braking, let up the
> throttle (controller fully off) and close the braking contactor.
> Residual magnetism in the field provides a weak field, to generate a
> small armature voltage (typically a few volts or less). The resistor
> converts this to heat, giving you a modest amounto of braking torque.
>
> A more complicated scheme is to use the controller to power just the
> field, and connect the armature to a much larger braking resistor.
> Higher field currents (controlled by the controller) can produce large
> amounts of braking force. However, the normal ADC series motors many EVs
> use are not well suited to high braking currents; the brushes will arc
> much worse than at the same current/voltage during motoring operation.
>
> I don't know if you can get enough braking force from your motor without
> undue brush arcing. It's one of those things you just have to experiment
> with.
> --
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have had two failures in ten years.
Both times I fixed it with JBWeld.
Neither repair has failed.
I think it worked because I did a good prep job before using the JBWeld.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:33 AM
Subject: Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
> I seen someone was looking for an epoxy to do glue permanent magnets back
> into the barrel. All I can say is good freaking luck. My self and over 50
> other rebuild shops have tried this, and with epoxys design for this vary
> task. I do not know of one person that has yet to be successful.
> I think, do not know for sure, that when the motors were originally
> constructed, the magnets were not charged until after they were installed.
> But for whatever reason, we have never seen anything work at reinstalling
> them. Thousands of PMGR starter barrels are thrown each day because there
is
> no way of fixing/repairing/rebuilding them.
> What we do with the motors that are too expensive to throw away, is simply
> return them to the original manufacturer for the repair. If they say they
> won't, contact me and I will try and find a large enough shop that can
make
> the repair. I.e. install a new magnet and charge it.
> Raymond
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> I think there was one minor consideration regarding
> which of the first and last posts you use for power.
Yes. Your connecting wires have resistance. It's only milliohms, but so
is the internal resistance of the batteries. So, it makes a difference.
If a series string looks like this
battery1 battery2 battery3 battery4
---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---
and you connect your "buddy" pairs of batteries like this
battery1 battery3 battery5 battery7
---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---(+) (-)---
| | | | | | | |
(+) (-) (+) (-) (+) (-) (+) (-)
battery2 battery4 battery6 battery8
then the even-numbered batteries have the extra resistance of the
vertical +to+ and -to- jumpers in series with them. As a result, they
deliver less current.
But if you move the +to- jumpers like this
battery1 battery3 battery5 battery7
---(+) (-) (+) (-)---(+) (-) (+) (-)---
| | | | | | | |
(+) (-)---(+) (-) (+) (-)---(+) (-)
battery2 battery4 battery6 battery8
then every battery has the same number of jumpers in series, so they all
deliver equal currents.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go to the manzanitamicro.com web page.
Click on the download page.
About one screen down there is a remote control Q&A link.
The actual document is at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Remote%20Q%20and%20A.txt
It makes references to the schematic at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/remote%20controls.gif
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/remote%20indicators.gif
and
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/remote%20references.gif
The pinout for the charge controller to power stage connector is at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Interface%20connector%20pinout.txt
The interface from the Regbus to the charge controller is at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/REGBUS%20interface.gif
All these documents have been there since the week of 26 April 2002.
The remote control port changed as the complexity of the charge controller
increased. I will try to document the changes to that port in the next month
as I get time.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
> > Right now...
> > you load the code..
> > key in C for taper charge
> > there are 4 flavors Test, cycle,taper, and manual mode
> > Give it a file name
> > key in :
> > Max volts
> > Max current
> > Max Amphoure
> > Min amps to terminate charge cycle.
>
> "cycle"... how do you discharge? Do you use a power stage of the pfc-xx
> to pwm current into an external load bank?
>
> What information can I get at inside the PFC charger? Can it tell me
> input current and/or output current? Is it easy to control anything else
> besides the (normaly externally adjustable) voltage setpoint and the
> (normally externally adjustable) current limit pot?
>
> - Steven Ciciora
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The power stage has only a 'throttle' command.
The charge controller sets the current, voltage and time limits.
We could build one as you ask but deleting the timer would only save you
about $10.
If someone wants isolation, either install an isolation transformer in the
feed wires or buy a different charger. I know Victor has some very nice
isolated chargers at a higher cost.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Dump Charging "Profiles" !
> > If Rich would sell just power stages with separate voltage and current
> limit
> > control inputs (nothing else) that would be it.
>
> If he did, it would most likely not be any cheaper. What you describe
> above is the "hard part" of the entire charger! And the vast majority of
> the hardware cost. I bet it represents 90% of the hardware cost, and at
> least 90% of the development effort. Thinking about it, most likely more.
>
> > I know, but preferably isolated.
>
> I seem to remember when Rich started the design of his charger, he asked
> the group how important different features were. I believe the conclusion
> was that most people were not willing to pay the cost (in terms of
> dollars, size, and weight) for an isolated charger. I would prefer it
> too, but I don't think I'd be willing to pay 25% more for it (in terms of
> $s, weight and volume). 10%, yes, 20%, I'd have to think about it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
Does anyone have any experience with the PFC XX series chargers to
charge various size packs of Saft stm180 nicads in 192 and up to 300
volt configurations.
Issues I am wondering about are the commissioning charge of almost 450
volts
for a 300 volt pack, and settings for the typical 10% over charge. As I
will be
getting quite a few of these 6 volt blocks and since they are the size
of typical golf cart
batteries I plan to upgrade a couple of my EVs.
Bill Brinsmead, Reno Nv.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a better product in my opinion - I think it is called Supermend and
is sold at BiMart. We used it for magnets in a Tecumseh electric start
engine; the key to getting it to stay was good prep and lots of pressure on
the part while it cured!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
> I have had two failures in ten years.
> Both times I fixed it with JBWeld.
> Neither repair has failed.
> I think it worked because I did a good prep job before using the JBWeld.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 11:33 AM
> Subject: Glueing Permanent Magnets Back In
>
>
> > I seen someone was looking for an epoxy to do glue permanent magnets
back
> > into the barrel. All I can say is good freaking luck. My self and over
50
> > other rebuild shops have tried this, and with epoxys design for this
vary
> > task. I do not know of one person that has yet to be successful.
> > I think, do not know for sure, that when the motors were originally
> > constructed, the magnets were not charged until after they were
installed.
> > But for whatever reason, we have never seen anything work at
reinstalling
> > them. Thousands of PMGR starter barrels are thrown each day because
there
> is
> > no way of fixing/repairing/rebuilding them.
> > What we do with the motors that are too expensive to throw away, is
simply
> > return them to the original manufacturer for the repair. If they say
they
> > won't, contact me and I will try and find a large enough shop that can
> make
> > the repair. I.e. install a new magnet and charge it.
> > Raymond
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Where did you get the STM180 batteries?
I'm guessing a scrapped out TEVan.
I use 30 in my 1994 Dodge TEVan,
www.qsl.net/w8rnh/tevanh
Just curious since they are no longer made by SAFT.
My TEVan charger works very well for the TEVan, I
wrote the software while I was employed at GE.
If you are interested I can send the charge control
software and some other interesting excel spreadsheets
with temp vs charge voltages (which can be
interpolated for various pack voltages.
I also use these in my 1995 Club Car golf cart (8
batteries) http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/golfcart.html
I use 6 of them in my GE Elec Trak riding mower,
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/etrakh/
Rod
--- billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> Does anyone have any experience with the PFC XX
> series chargers to
> charge various size packs of Saft stm180 nicads in
> 192 and up to 300
> volt configurations.
> Issues I am wondering about are the commissioning
> charge of almost 450
> volts
> for a 300 volt pack, and settings for the typical
> 10% over charge. As I
> will be
> getting quite a few of these 6 volt blocks and since
> they are the size
> of typical golf cart
> batteries I plan to upgrade a couple of my EVs.
>
>
> Bill Brinsmead, Reno Nv.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
michael bearden wrote:
> I am very nearly ready to return the Gogomobil to service...
> I have 2 electric wheelchair/scooter gel cells that I want to
> use for the 12v power... What do I need to do differently in
> their care and charging from the Optimas?
Gel cells are very similar to AGMs. The main difference is that they
generally have higher internal resistance, and so do not handle high
currents as well. This should not be a problem for your 12v accessory
battery.
The other difference is that you have to try even harder to avoid high
charging voltages. Too high a voltage can produce gas bubbles in the
gel, which take forever to recombine. In an accessory battery
application, I would set up my DC/DC converter for a safe float voltage,
like 13.5v, and leave it on all the time (unless the car is parked for
months).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I have been searching for a pack switch. Since I am using a high
> voltage AC system (312VDC), I need a switch that can handle this
> voltage. I have tried the local industrial electrical supply
> places, and the switches are HUGE! Anybody have any other
> suggestions?
What is the purpose of this switch? Does it have to switch under load?
Does it have to switch under FAULT conditions?
On most EVs, you want at least one switch/fuse/circuit breaker that you
*know* can safely interrupt the worst-case fault current. With high
performance lead-acid AGMs or nicads, the fault current can easily be
thousands of amps!
Circuit breakers
----------------
A circuit breaker does double-duty. It can serve as a manual disconnect
or "off" switch, and it will trip in case of an overcurrent fault
condition. You can get them with "relay trip coils" so that an external
signal can force it to trip as well.
High-voltage DC circuit breakers usually have 2 or more poles, all
connected in series or parallel to get the desired ratings. For example,
I have a Heinemann 3-pole breaker rated 300vdc, 200a continuous, with an
interrupting capacity of 1000a. You wire the 3 poles in series to get
the 300vdc rating. It cost me $60 surplus, and is about 4"w x 8"l x 4"h.
Contactors
----------
Contactor manufacturers publish their worst-case interrupt voltage and
current ratings. There is some leeway -- at lower voltages, they can
interrupt a little more current, and vice versa.
At your pack voltage, a large Kilovac contactor can do it (once). If it
ever interrupts a major fault, you'll need to replace it afterwards.
Most industrial contactors have replaceable contacts. They know that
faults can occur, and it is expensive to throw away a perfectly good
contactor just because its contacts are melted. Most of these are lower
voltages (because industrial EVs tend to avoid 300v packs, for
reliability and safety reasons). However, you can put multiple contacts
in series to increase the voltage rating, as long as all of them are
opened at the SAME TIME.
Switches
--------
The old classic is the Big Knife Switch. They work by having *huge*
spacing between the off-state contacts. But, they are obviously very
dangerous, especially at high voltages. You'd have to mount or package
them so you can't touch the contacts, and so they can't throw molten
metal at you, or blind or burn you from the arc!
Commercially, these look like the big electrical boxes you see with a
big handle on the side. The handle opens several poles of a big knife
switch inside the box.
Of course, a knife switch depends on YOU to be there to pull the switch
in an emergency. They are actually better suited to just use as an
on/off switch, for instance as a way to disconnect the pack for
servicing.
Some EV manufacturers make special switches for EV disconnect service. I
had an Anderson emergency shutoff in my ComutaVan. It was rated 96vdc
500a continuous, 2000a interrupt. It was about the size of your fist,
and had a big red button on top. You pressed the button to turn it on.
The button latched down if there was 12v power on an internal solenoid
coil. If power was ever lost to that coil, the button popped back up and
turned it off. You wired this coil to your keyswitch and emergency
shutdown circuits.
The version of it that I see advertised nowdays is a smaller version,
but larger ones may also exist.
Connectors
----------
Another popular method is to have some sort of big connector that can be
pulled apart to break the circuit. People have used Anderson connectors
(rated 300vdc), fuses and fuseholders (pull the fuse out to break the
circuit), and even home-made links (some kind of rope or cord to jerk a
piece out the circuit).
John Wayland has a big industrial fuseholder which is a completely
closed 2-part box. The fuse is in the cover, and the socket for it is in
the base. There is a huge handle on the cover that you can pull out to
break the circuit. It is about 3" x 6" x 5" high. The design is such
that you can't get your hands on any live components either before,
during, or after disconnect. They come in arbitrarily large sizes;
500vdc and 2000a units are obtainable.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
