EV Digest 3897
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Relay for heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Relay for heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Relay for heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Tom Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Relay for heater
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Relay for heater
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Tom Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Relay for heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Relay for heater
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) car shipping
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV for sale $1000 or less in NH (rough!)Freebee!!
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Good electric scooter/moped
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Good electric scooter/moped
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Relay for heater
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Nissan Super Motor & Compact Li Ion battery.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Simple fool-proof plan by John Crudele :: NYPost
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re:Simple fool-proof plan by John Crudele :: NYPost Now: Hydrogen engine no, the
Mighter Electric motor yes.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Simple fool-proof plan.
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Relay for heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino wrote:
> I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater
> element, and its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps.
> I had hoped to use a small KUEP-type relay (SPST w/mag blowout)
> but that is rated at 10 amps. Will I have a problem if I use this
> relay and put 14 amps through it? And, if the relay fails, how
> will it fail ( and how dangerous could that failure be)?
It will probably work for a while, then fail. Relays are usually rated
for the power they can switch for 100,000 cycles. The relationship
between life and power is not very predictable; at 14 amps it might last
50,000 cycles... or only 1000 cycles!
When it fails, it will probably fail shorted (contacts welded). What
will happen next depends on the rest of your design. Is there an
overtemperature fuse or cutout switch?
I don't think the KUEP series is quite big enough for your application.
Perhaps you should move up to the PRD series.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I just started a thread about this on Jon Pullen's EVTECH mailing
> list. Lee suggests for my PTC heaters (two of them in parallel,
> 312VDC 10A) to use a PRD-11DH0-12 250VDC 20A relay with a snubber
> network on the contacts. This may work for you as well.
The relay contacts should be in *series*, not parallel. Each contact is
rated at 150vdc, so they can switch 300vdc in parallel. 312vdc is close
enough not to be a problem.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I meant to say, the **heaters** are in parallel. Yes, of course the relays
are in series to get the required voltage rating.
I must be more precise when describing circuits, or else things will start
melting in more places than just my shop!
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: November 5, 2004 2:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Relay for heater
> I just started a thread about this on Jon Pullen's EVTECH mailing
> list. Lee suggests for my PTC heaters (two of them in parallel, 312VDC
> 10A) to use a PRD-11DH0-12 250VDC 20A relay with a snubber network on
> the contacts. This may work for you as well.
The relay contacts should be in *series*, not parallel. Each contact is
rated at 150vdc, so they can switch 300vdc in parallel. 312vdc is close
enough not to be a problem.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:43:03 -0800, Eric Poulsen did scribe:
>�This site appears to be selling them:
>
>�http://www.autosupplyusa.com/joeztools/exor34exdeep.html
True - and there's also www.remybattery.com
I'm assuming that they could do something like UPS 20 of them to me in 20 individual
packages to meet UPS package limits. However that ads ~$18 to the cost of each and
would make our UPS driver hate me for life.
Since I can get the Deka locally and at a better price and it has 10% more AH
nominally, that's why I was curious about it.
- Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wanted to see how much shipping was, so I went to remybattery.com, and
went through the order process for 10 of the Eliminators. They had 2
shipping options: pickup and UPS. When I went to the next step, it said
the total weight was 450 lbs, and I should choose the type of UPS
shipping. However, the pulldown list had zero options, and it wouldn't
let me continue.
The only other distributor "near" me is in Fresno, 270 miles away. How
does deka expect to sell anything at all?
Tom Coate wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:43:03 -0800, Eric Poulsen did scribe:
This site appears to be selling them:
http://www.autosupplyusa.com/joeztools/exor34exdeep.html
True - and there's also www.remybattery.com
I'm assuming that they could do something like UPS 20 of them to me in 20 individual
packages to meet UPS package limits. However that ads ~$18 to the cost of each and
would make our UPS driver hate me for life.
Since I can get the Deka locally and at a better price and it has 10% more AH nominally, that's why I was curious about it.
- Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The correct relay, which we call a definite purpose contactor, that is
design for resistance, inductance, and or heater loads.
They are smaller than a motor or lighting contactor and is price at the same
price as a heavy duty relay.
These are made my Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse, HoneyWell,etc.,
which you can get from a electrical supply house and maybe from Home Depot.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: Relay for heater
> I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater element, and
> its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps. I had hoped to use a
> small KUEP-type relay ( SPST w/mag blowout) but that is rated at 10 amps .
> Will I have a problem if I use this relay and put 14 amps through it?
> And,
> if the relay fails, how will it fail ( and how dangerous could that
> failure
> be) ?
>
> The initial inrush will be much less ( about 6 amps). ( According to my
> measurenents the element, when cold, has a higher resistance than when
> warm.) So, the inrush current shouldn't be a problem.
>
> The only other choice that I know of would be a Kilovac EV200, but the
> relay is a lot cheaper and smaller.
>
> Phil Marino
> Rochester, NY
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
UPS will not take anything heavier than 150 lb, but you can split the
battery shipment to several boxes less than 150 lb each.
If your batteries are >75lb each, this prety much means UPS will only
ship one at the time.
Victor
Eric Poulsen wrote:
I wanted to see how much shipping was, so I went to remybattery.com, and
went through the order process for 10 of the Eliminators. They had 2
shipping options: pickup and UPS. When I went to the next step, it said
the total weight was 450 lbs, and I should choose the type of UPS
shipping. However, the pulldown list had zero options, and it wouldn't
let me continue.
The only other distributor "near" me is in Fresno, 270 miles away. How
does deka expect to sell anything at all?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, what company did you use for shipping when you did the group
purchase from ThunderSky last year?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 3:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
UPS will not take anything heavier than 150 lb, but you can split the
battery shipment to several boxes less than 150 lb each.
If your batteries are >75lb each, this prety much means UPS will only
ship one at the time.
Victor
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> I wanted to see how much shipping was, so I went to remybattery.com, and
> went through the order process for 10 of the Eliminators. They had 2
> shipping options: pickup and UPS. When I went to the next step, it said
> the total weight was 450 lbs, and I should choose the type of UPS
> shipping. However, the pulldown list had zero options, and it wouldn't
> let me continue.
>
> The only other distributor "near" me is in Fresno, 270 miles away. How
> does deka expect to sell anything at all?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's one; 1000VDC, 1250A, $49.95 starting bid:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42895&item=3851082973&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Roland Wiench wrote:
The correct relay, which we call a definite purpose contactor, that is
design for resistance, inductance, and or heater loads.
They are smaller than a motor or lighting contactor and is price at the same
price as a heavy duty relay.
These are made my Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse, HoneyWell,etc.,
which you can get from a electrical supply house and maybe from Home Depot.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: Relay for heater
I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater element, and
its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps. I had hoped to use a
small KUEP-type relay ( SPST w/mag blowout) but that is rated at 10 amps .
Will I have a problem if I use this relay and put 14 amps through it?
And,
if the relay fails, how will it fail ( and how dangerous could that
failure
be) ?
The initial inrush will be much less ( about 6 amps). ( According to my
measurenents the element, when cold, has a higher resistance than when
warm.) So, the inrush current shouldn't be a problem.
The only other choice that I know of would be a Kilovac EV200, but the
relay is a lot cheaper and smaller.
Phil Marino
Rochester, NY
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I had that problem too. So to get an estimate, I went back and changed quantity
to 1 battery. If you really wanted to order, I'd think you'd have to call the 800
number to work out shipping in in UPS size chunks. Or just keep going back to the web
site and ordering 2 batteries at a time. :)
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 13:31:31 -0800, Eric Poulsen did scribe:
>�I wanted to see how much shipping was, so I went to
>�remybattery.com, and went through the order process for 10 of the
>�Eliminators. �They had 2 shipping options: pickup and UPS. �When I
>�went to the next step, it said the total weight was 450 lbs, and I
>�should choose the type of UPS shipping. �However, the pulldown list
>�had zero options, and it wouldn't let me continue.
>
>�The only other distributor "near" me is in Fresno, 270 miles away.
>�How does deka expect to sell anything at all?
>
>�Tom Coate wrote:
>
>>�On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:43:03 -0800, Eric Poulsen did scribe:
>>
>>
>>>�This site appears to be selling them:
>>>
>>>�http://www.autosupplyusa.com/joeztools/exor34exdeep.html
>>>
>>>
>>�True - and there's also www.remybattery.com
>>
>>�I'm assuming that they could do something like UPS 20 of them to
>>�me in 20 individual packages to meet UPS package limits. �However
>>�that ads ~$18 to the cost of each and would make our UPS driver
>>�hate me for life.
>>
>>�Since I can get the Deka locally and at a better price and it has
>>�10% more AH nominally, that's why I was curious about it.
>>
>>�- Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't remember because it was a choice of freight forwarder on the US
side - some
generic name like "air freight" or something. I can look it up in my
shipping papers.
When I ship drive systems I use Danzas (now - DHL-Danzas), they will
take any
[reasonable] freight - I have shipped 750 lb crates in the past using
them, and
routinely ship 250-350 lb crates.
Victor
Bill Dennis wrote:
Victor, what company did you use for shipping when you did the group
purchase from ThunderSky last year?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 3:15 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Deka Intimidator - Any Updates?
UPS will not take anything heavier than 150 lb, but you can split the
battery shipment to several boxes less than 150 lb each.
If your batteries are >75lb each, this prety much means UPS will only
ship one at the time.
Victor
Eric Poulsen wrote:
I wanted to see how much shipping was, so I went to remybattery.com, and
went through the order process for 10 of the Eliminators. They had 2
shipping options: pickup and UPS. When I went to the next step, it said
the total weight was 450 lbs, and I should choose the type of UPS
shipping. However, the pulldown list had zero options, and it wouldn't
let me continue.
The only other distributor "near" me is in Fresno, 270 miles away. How
does deka expect to sell anything at all?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at SquareD, Honeywell and Allen Bradley, but no Definite Purpose
Contactors come with 12v coils and 400VDC rated contactors. Any suggestions?
thanks
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: November 5, 2004 2:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Relay for heater
The correct relay, which we call a definite purpose contactor, that is
design for resistance, inductance, and or heater loads.
They are smaller than a motor or lighting contactor and is price at the same
price as a heavy duty relay.
These are made my Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse, HoneyWell,etc.,
which you can get from a electrical supply house and maybe from Home Depot.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
Subject: Relay for heater
> I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater element, and
> its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps. I had hoped to use a
> small KUEP-type relay ( SPST w/mag blowout) but that is rated at 10 amps .
> Will I have a problem if I use this relay and put 14 amps through it?
> And,
> if the relay fails, how will it fail ( and how dangerous could that
> failure
> be) ?
>
> The initial inrush will be much less ( about 6 amps). ( According to my
> measurenents the element, when cold, has a higher resistance than when
> warm.) So, the inrush current shouldn't be a problem.
>
> The only other choice that I know of would be a Kilovac EV200, but the
> relay is a lot cheaper and smaller.
>
> Phil Marino
> Rochester, NY
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
We stock the MARS (Motors And Armature Service) brand definite purpose
contactor rated at 600 volts at my friendly local electric motor shop.
These are used to switch 480 volt fan motors in large HVAC units.
Typically 3 phase units. This would provide 6 contacts in series (each
phase has a cross-bar contact set.) Our normal stock has 24VAC coils.
These work fine on 12VDC with the inclusion of a suitable resistor in
series. I don't recall the value but I do know that a 1 watt size is
adequate. Of course, 12VDC coils can be ordered.
FWIW, Miller uses this style contactor to switch the welding current on
and off in my Millermatic 195 MIG welder. That's 70 or so volts at up to
a couple hundred amps. The three contacts are connected in parallel.
I've watched the relay switch with the welding torch shorted. A brief
arc, not unlike switching AC, with no sustained discharge.
John
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:41:38 -0800, "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I looked at SquareD, Honeywell and Allen Bradley, but no Definite Purpose
>Contactors come with 12v coils and 400VDC rated contactors. Any suggestions?
>
>thanks
>Don
>
>
>
>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Roland Wiench
>Sent: November 5, 2004 2:09 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Relay for heater
>
>The correct relay, which we call a definite purpose contactor, that is
>design for resistance, inductance, and or heater loads.
>
>They are smaller than a motor or lighting contactor and is price at the same
>price as a heavy duty relay.
>
>These are made my Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse, HoneyWell,etc.,
>which you can get from a electrical supply house and maybe from Home Depot.
>
>Roland
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
>Subject: Relay for heater
>
>
>> I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater element, and
>> its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps. I had hoped to use a
>> small KUEP-type relay ( SPST w/mag blowout) but that is rated at 10 amps .
>> Will I have a problem if I use this relay and put 14 amps through it?
>> And,
>> if the relay fails, how will it fail ( and how dangerous could that
>> failure
>> be) ?
>>
>> The initial inrush will be much less ( about 6 amps). ( According to my
>> measurenents the element, when cold, has a higher resistance than when
>> warm.) So, the inrush current shouldn't be a problem.
>>
>> The only other choice that I know of would be a Kilovac EV200, but the
>> relay is a lot cheaper and smaller.
>>
>> Phil Marino
>> Rochester, NY
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
>> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>>
>>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We used Aries Auto to ship from Texas to San
Francisco, and they were good. They ship nationally.
It took less than a week, all told about 5 days from
the time the call was made to the time it arrived in
our fair city. Less time than it took another company
to ship a different car here from Phoenix. That might
have been sheer luck, but we were happy with them. You
can find Aries on the web.
Sherry
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'd take it, but at this point it'd have to come back to MD. Also
the Prizm is running pretty well now, despite the colder weather.
Chris
Seth Allen wrote:
No taker yet.
Chris Zach was upset that I got the car and he hasn't even asked now
that I am selling it :)
EV Tradin' post next or a donation to the local school
Seth
On Nov 2, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: EV for sale $1000 or less in NH (rough!)Freebee!!
I just picked , what I beliave was one of Mike Brown's rabbit
conversion
kits , with the Rabbit tranny . So I'm looking for cars to put it in .
Sounds like the adptor will fit a few different cars :-) what cars
should
I
be looking for that will take this fine kit . I'd also add here after
seeing one , that these kits are very well done , and can see where
using
one would make the job a lot easyer.
H
Steve;
Howbout an older Jetta, Fox or Golf. Tony Ascrizzi did a real nice
conversion of a older Golf , sed that the tranny was the same as a
Rabbit, I
gave him a good Rabbit tranny to replace the Golf's one that reverse
died.
In FLA ya might find some clean rust free ones?
Seeya
Bob
I have a battered,white,4door, bent front strut 88 Jetta that I'd be
happy to GIVE to anybody that wants to transplant the Rabbit stuff
into.
Body is sound, no holes, a bit mouldy inside, but would clean up. I had
it
running once as a gasser, but I don't think it is streetable as is..yur
call? Needs the basic Jetta/ Rabbit fixin's @#$%^ Door handles are
busted,
cracked taillite lenses, missing front grill. Who cares? You were gunna
'
glas over it anyhow. I Just have too damn many projects for now.
It is in south central CT, Killingworth, hasz a title, all that
crap.
Hate to send it to the scrapyard.
Seeya]
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question: I know that Pep Boys sells electric mopeds/scooters for $400.
I also know they are made in the depths of China and I am not convinced
of the quality.
Does anyone make a good quality scooter with say a 20 mile range speed
of 20-40mph in the 1k-whatever range?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Question: I know that Pep Boys sells electric mopeds/scooters for $400.
> I also know they are made in the depths of China and I am not convinced
> of the quality.
>
> Does anyone make a good quality scooter with say a 20 mile range speed
> of 20-40mph in the 1k-whatever range?
>
> Chris
Simple answer: No.
If your top speed is well in excess of 30mph, the law would consider it a
motorcycle, with yearly licensing fees (and insurance). Vespa-type e-scooters
will go 30mph for an hour or more, but they retail well over $2k, (and in
California, need a moped license) - e.g. -
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/SCOOTERS/EVT/EvtHomePage.htm . You can go up
to 15mph on an e-scoot (up to 20mph on something with working pedals), but
cannot be "in the flow of traffic", since it's not a licensed vehicle.
If you were comfortable with the 20mph limit, you could get a hub kit for a
bicycle, and use enough battery capacity for the range you need, and still come
in under $1k. This would attract less attention from the local PD, and pretty
much pass for a regular bicycle in the public eye.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I went to a Square D supplier, the standard items that were in stock
were 120/240 vac rating. I got a digest catalog from them and went to the
section of custom assemblies.
You may also have to get a digest on DC controls.
There are any combinations of coils voltage and contacts rating from 1 volt
to 600 volt DC or AC.
I have purchase relays and contactors with 12 VDC coils and 240 and 480 VAC
@ 50 amp rating. The 240 VAC at 10 amp relay have work on 180 VDC since
1975 and is still going today.
You may have to do the engineering on the correct combinations of components
that are list in these digest catalogs. Many sales clerks may not or do not
know how to do this.
Roland
You may have to
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: Relay for heater
> I looked at SquareD, Honeywell and Allen Bradley, but no Definite Purpose
> Contactors come with 12v coils and 400VDC rated contactors. Any
> suggestions?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: November 5, 2004 2:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Relay for heater
>
> The correct relay, which we call a definite purpose contactor, that is
> design for resistance, inductance, and or heater loads.
>
> They are smaller than a motor or lighting contactor and is price at the
> same
> price as a heavy duty relay.
>
> These are made my Square D, General Electric, Westinghouse,
> HoneyWell,etc.,
> which you can get from a electrical supply house and maybe from Home
> Depot.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:32 AM
> Subject: Relay for heater
>
>
> > I just measured the current draw of my new PTC ceramic heater element,
> > and
> > its maximum draw at my peak pack voltage is 14 amps. I had hoped to use
> > a
> > small KUEP-type relay ( SPST w/mag blowout) but that is rated at 10 amps
> > .
> > Will I have a problem if I use this relay and put 14 amps through it?
> > And,
> > if the relay fails, how will it fail ( and how dangerous could that
> > failure
> > be) ?
> >
> > The initial inrush will be much less ( about 6 amps). ( According to my
> > measurenents the element, when cold, has a higher resistance than when
> > warm.) So, the inrush current shouldn't be a problem.
> >
> > The only other choice that I know of would be a Kilovac EV200, but the
> > relay is a lot cheaper and smaller.
> >
> > Phil Marino
> > Rochester, NY
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
They don't say it but the motor would be great in an EV & so would the
batteries as their Altra proves. Maybe Nissan has a suprise up it's sleeve
for the other auto producers. Lawrence Rhodes...........
Nissan-Exclusive Super Motor
In an ordinary motor, a rotor fitted with permanent magnets rotates around
electromagnets (stator) to generate power that is output through one shaft.
The Super Motor incorporates a new technique of applying compound current to
the electromagnets and has two rotors positioned both on the inside and
outside of one stator, allowing power to be delivered through two shafts.
The innovative Super Motor can achieve dramatic improvements in compactness
and efficiency compared with the use of two motors. Additionally, it
controls the power of each shaft separately, making it possible to drive
right and left independently, enhancing dynamic performance and stability.
One motor package also incorporates the dual functions of a motor and a
generator.
The Super Motor can be utilized in a wide variety of applications, including
on fuel cell vehicles and hybrid vehicles, which benefit from the use of its
generator function.
Compact Lithium-ion Battery
Nissan has been a pioneer in applying lithium-ion batteries to vehicles. As
a result of long-term research, Nissan has succeeded in obtaining
exceptionally high output characteristics and in developing a laminated
lithium-ion cell in place of the conventional cylindrical shape. The use of
a laminated cell as an automobile battery, which has a high current rate,
requires larger terminals. The sealing performance of the cell also becomes
an issue because of the gas produced by repeating charging and discharging
cycles.
Nissan addressed these issues by developing a laminated cell for use on
vehicles. The laminated cell design reduces the weight and volume by half,
compared with the conventional cylindrical type. In addition, the thin cell
construction improves cooling efficiency dramatically and also allows
excellent vehicle mountability, making it possible to achieve a low, flat
floor. These and other advantages lead to compact, highly efficient vehicle
packaging when the laminated cell is applied to hybrid vehicles and fuel
cell vehicles.
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--- Begin Message ---
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:54:12 -0500
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Simple fool-proof plan by John Crudele :: NYPost
From:
http://www.nypost.com/business/32158.htm
A SIMPLE, FOOL-PROOF PLAN THAT'LL SAVE OUR ECONOMY
By JOHN CRUDELE
October 19, 2004 -- BOTH President Bush and John Kerry have plans for the
U.S. economy. So do I - only mine is better.
Kerry wants to raise taxes on the wealthy and magically all our problems
will end - until, of course, rich people find the next tax dodge.
The president thinks things are getting better every day and a little reform
of the educational system plus a quick repair of Social Security will make
things just about perfect. Politicians like to talk in simple terms. It
makes their message clearer.
Simple solutions usually don't fix complex problems like our nation's trade
deficit (a near-record $54 billion in August), or the budget deficit ($413
billion in 2004), or the potential insolvency of the Social Security system
sometime in the future or our economy's stubborn inability to create a
reasonable number of good-paying new jobs.
In this case, however, there Is a simple solution.
Oil is the problem. Reducing our dependency on foreign oil - or at least
making the financial markets think we are cutting back - is the solution.
How? By developing a credible energy policy that doesn't take decades to see
results.
If you ask Washington what's going to detox us from our addiction to foreign
oil the answer is always the same: the mighty hydrogen engine.
Democrat or Republican, that's a "someday" solution and it is still 20 years
into the future - if everything goes right.
Someday those dastardly oil sheiks will regret what they are doing to our
country. Someday is the time frame of losers - especially when the
technology exists today to recapture control of oil prices and make the oil
nations suffer.
Booz Allen Hamilton, the consulting firm, reported last week that vehicles
using so-called hybrid technology could make up 20 percent of the overall
new car market by 2010 and 80 percent by 2015.
In case you don't know this already, hybrids are highly-efficient cars and
SUVs that are propelled by both a gasoline engine and batteries.
Washington needs to speed up the transition to this first generation of
fuel-efficient cars while we wait for hydrogen vehicles to be perfected.
Let's say the next president suddenly announces - and Congressional leaders
quickly back - a plan that will offer significant tax benefits to buyers and
makers of hybrid cars.
These tax benefits would certainly be cheaper than the current war-a-decade
strategy - even if you don't count lost lives.
If the move by Washington is convincing enough, oil prices would drop
immediately. What then?
Then we drill for more oil in this country.
U.S. oil production peaked in the 1970s. And some places that have the best
potential for oil discoveries, like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge,
have been off limits mainly because pressure from environmentalists.
But the environmentalists can be bought. If they want the benefits of
reduced pollution that come with hybrid vehicles - which typically use 40
percent less gasoline - they are going to have to yield on new drilling.
There's the obvious way this helps the economy. If we manage to bully the
price of oil down, consumers will pay less for gas and will have more to
spend on everything else.
But it doesn't have to end there.
Right now Americans use 139.6 billion gallons of gasoline a year. The
average price as of last week was $1.99 for a gallon of regular gas. And the
federal government currently collects 18.4 cents on every gallon sold.
Let's be conservative and say that a push for more exploration in this
country, combined with an all-out government effort on hybrid cars, cuts the
price of gasoline by 30 cents a gallon - to $1.69.
Gas often moves that much for no reason, so it's not hard to image a
significant drop like that because of fears that America is getting its act
together.
Would anyone even notice if Washington took 10 cents of that savings by
raising its gasoline tax to 28.4 cents a gallon?
That would give the government another $13.9 billion a year, before you even
add in the revenue that'll come from the economic expansion lower oil prices
would bring.
The trade and budget deficits - solved. And we may even have a few bucks
left over for Social Security.
* Please send e-mail to: jcrudele@ nypost.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I will submit my views after John Crudele's comments.
Booz Allen Hamilton, the consulting firm, reported last week that vehicles
using so-called hybrid technology could make up 20 percent of the overall
new car market by 2010 and 80 percent by 2015.
Electric motors driving cars are just as buildable and less complicated
In case you don't know this already, hybrids are highly-efficient cars and
SUVs that are propelled by both a gasoline engine and batteries.
You know how efficient they are with the help of an electric motor powered
by waste energy stored in batteries. Just think how much more efficient
they would be using electric only. Go to the EPA Fuel Economy site and
compare the Rav4 EV or the Altra EV to a Toyota Prius or Insight. The
heavier Electrics are cheaper to run.
Washington needs to speed up the transition to this first generation of
fuel-efficient cars while we wait for hydrogen vehicles to be perfected.
Hydrogen will never be perfected. The electric grid has been here for over
a hundred years and works quite well. The most fuel-efficient vehicles are
electric only. The union of concerned scientists has done the math and
recommend pure electrics. If we can co operate and make super highways why
not super electric highways. Strips of metal imbeded in the roadway which
electric vehicles could through induction get all the power they need much
more efficiently than any hybrid. As it stands now electric's can go easily
300 miles between charges. The Superelectric Highway may not be needed.
Let's say the next president suddenly announces - and Congressional leaders
quickly back - a plan that will offer significant tax benefits to buyers and
makers of hybrid cars.
Do the same for all technologies from bio diesel to CNG and let the best one
win. The American way.
These tax benefits would certainly be cheaper than the current war-a-decade
strategy - even if you don't count lost lives.
No argument here
If the move by Washington is convincing enough, oil prices would drop
immediately. What then?
Let the Arabs twist in the wind and use alternative energy stratagies like
wind and solar on every roof in America...etc....
Then we drill for more oil in this country.
It's commin from space for free. Get with it. Lawrence Rhodes.EV
activist/driver/solarpanel roof system. .I'm drivin for free baby!!!!!!
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--- Begin Message ---
> Tom Coate wrote:
>
> >Back in September I saw some conversation around the new Deka Intimidator. I was
> >wondering if
> anybody had actually given them a try yet?
> >
I remember the emails back in September because I was also looking into this battery.
Out East
(US) the local NAPA stores carry Deka batteries. I stopped by and asked if they had
any info, (no)
but did not pursue it further at the time. If you have a NAPA in the area, they might
be able to
get them for you. Worth a try. Keep us posted, I'd like to know if this is a viable
battery.
Thanks
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
John:
Your "solution" overlooks several real world problems.
(1) The physics of electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen (the only
long term, high volume, non-fossil fuel method on the horizon) is very
energy intensive. This would translate into a large number of new
nuclear power plants. These are subsidized today so how would a crash
program to build these unpopular charmers be good for the economy?
(2) If you succeed in driving down the cost of oil, what will hold down
the sales of SUVs? See (3).
(3) The cost of oil won't come down. The rapidly demand of China and
India and the diminishing reserves worldwide will likely paint a much
grimmer oil supply picture in 20 years than they do today.
/Bob Siebert
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> There are any combinations of coils voltage and contacts rating
> from 1 volt to 600 volt DC or AC. I have purchased relays and
> contactors with 12 VDC coils and 240 and 480 VAC @ 50 amp rating.
> The 240 VAC at 10 amp relay have work on 180 VDC since 1975 and
> is still going today.
I've had some engineering experience with these contactors at Honeywell.
Understand that the UL "Definite Purpose" contactor category was created
in the early 1980's at the insistence of the HVAC (Heating, Ventilating,
and Air Conditioner) industy. They wanted a very cheap, down, and dirty
contactor for switching large motors and heaters.
Generic contactors were expensive. They had to be well-enough made to
pass UL's normal tests, which were designed to insure product safety.
For example, a contactor had to survive 100,000 cycles at its full rated
load voltage and current. It had to work at the highest rated
temperature, and at 20% high line voltage. Its materials had to be
non-combustible. It had to survive voltage surges from lightning strikes
on the powerline.
The HVAC industry felt all this was unnecessary. All the contactor had
to do was survive with *their* particular load and operating conditions.
So, they wrote milder test specs, and paid UL to create a new category
-- "Definite Purpose" contactors. These are smaller, lighter, have
smaller contacts with closer spacings, shorter life, and more
restrictive operating limits -- and of course they are cheaper to make
(but not to buy -- what a surprise :-)
So for example, a definite purpose contactor may be rated for 277vac and
50a -- but not at the same time. It may only survive for 50,000 cycles,
because that was long enough to survive the air conditioner's warranty
period. It depends on the A/C motor it is switching to draw peak current
only briefly when starting, and then the load drops to a much lower
current;, and that the higher the line voltage, the lower the current
(normal behaviour for an induction motor). It depends on being mounted
so it gets cooled by the fan that is part of the A/C system. Etc.
Roland, the contactors you bought in 1975 were very unlikely to be
definite purpose contactors. They survive because they were built to
higher standards than today's definite purpose contactors.
On using DC coils with definite-purpose contactors: An AC coil has a
very low resistance; it depends on its inductance to limit the current.
The inductance is low when it has not pulled in, so it draws high
current. Once it has pulled in, the inductance increases so the current
falls. So, you automatically get a high inrush current (to generate high
force, and so pull in quickly). Then, the current automatically drops to
a lower level, to hold in with less current and less coil heating.
If you put a DC coil on such a contactor, it pulls in and drops out
slower. Therefore, its contact ratings are worse. The coil also runs
hotter, shortening its life. On definite purpose contactors, you will
usually find in the tiny print that they are not UL listed with DC
coils. That's because there isn't enough safety margin in the specs to
pass UL with a DC coil.
This doesn't mean you can't use them -- it just means you have to know
what you are doing, and not blindly take the printed ratings as gospel.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Tom Coate wrote:
> Back in September I saw some conversation around the new Deka Intimidator. I was
> wondering if anybody had actually given them a try yet?
That was my post. Yes, in a small way, I've been using one since August, as the
starting
and deep draw usage battery in my electric fork lift V8 diesel service truck. There are
actually twin 12V batteries in this truck, and both are used in starting and deep draw
applications. The batteries are not the same size or capacity...you'll have to ask Ford
what they had in mind on this design :-) I replaced both of the batteries with Deka
products,
but it was the Intimidator that really got me excited. Yeah, I know this isn't exactly
the
'given them a try yet' response you were looking for, but I 'can' tell you that in this
demanding application that has eaten several lesser batteries quickly, batteries that
were
larger, heavier, and more expensive, the Dekas are far better. As a test, I
disconnected
the second battery and only used the Intimidator as the high current starter. With more
than 700 amps of cranking current sucked, this yellow top battery had less voltage sag
than the other brands did when new and connected in parallel!
I have contacted East Penn about a set of these for Blue Meanie's upgrade to 204V, and
it
looks good that 17 of them will soon be powering up this fun EV. Sooooo....I'm not yet
in
a position to give an EV application report, but I expect this to change within the
month.
> I need to replace a pack of Optimas and my local distributor is able to work with me
> on a price for the Deka that is far better than the Optima or Orbital.
Since the materials handling company I work for sells industrial versions of Deka
products
for forklift application, I get dealer wholesale pricing on any Deka batteries. I am
not
at liberty to share the pricing, but I can tell everyone, that based on the very
reasonable wholesale price of the Intimidator, one should be able to buy this battery
at
the retail level, for less than $90 per battery. In EV quantities, I'd expect less than
$80 per battery.
The physical size, the weight, the ratings in both CCA and ahr capacity, the same hot
rod good looks of an Optima or Orbital, the reputaion of Deka as a solid high quality
battery, and especially the low price, make the Deka Intimidator an enticing option for
use in a spirited and fun street screamer type EV. Only time will tell if it's indeed,
as
rugged and dependable as the Optimas have historically been, or, if it can dish out
super
high currents as effortlessly as the Orbitals can.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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