EV Digest 3946
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Make your own fuse.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) hello, is this thing on?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) kWh/mile challenge
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Make your own fuse.
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: hubbell safety interlock plug
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Vicor 400W Ac-Dc 12V on Ebay
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) DC clamp meter recomendation
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Bad gear ratio on Stock Lectra.
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Revitalizing EV batts. and regulators
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Spare Tires
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Curtis and Switching Voltages
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) just looking for opinions
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Lectra Fuse, was: Re: Make your own fuse.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: hello, is this thing on?
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Li-Ion Batteries
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Bad gear ratio on Stock Lectra.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
33) Re: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
2 3/8" or 60mm fuse length this is center bolt to center bolt. The fuse is
flat with open ends (one at a 90° angle for insertion) and fits under the
top of the Lectra frame.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Make your own fuse.
At 04:59 PM 4/12/04 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
After reading James response it reminded me why we have fuses. If your
controller jams on high even 2 seconds would feel like an eternity. What
ratio for catastrophic failure and quick release would be safest? Also
after reading James response I am going to buy a fuse. Winning a Darwin
award is not the way I want to go out. Just driving a MC is dangerous
enough. The fuse I have is a LECTRA 400 amp. It blew quite quickly when
I put one side of the pack to the other and turned on the contactor. The
problem is that it is a specialty fuse and now I need to find something
that will fit the fuse compartment. Anyone have some of those 400 amp
Lectra fuses? Lawrence Rhodes.......
Hi Lawrence
Presumably you still have the old fuse? If you share with us:
- any/all manufactures' markings
- body diameter
- body length
- end fitting or overall length
- end fitting holes/slots (diameter)
- inline or offset of the ends
a match may be determined.
Alternatively the internal dimensions of the fuse compartment, bolt
spacing etc.
Do you have an ammeter in the vehicle and so know the maximum current draw
under normal conditions?
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
no messages in almost 24 hours...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
A Kwh-Hr challenge sounds like fun.
How about this way.
Needed: One of Rich's PFC chargers and a box between the charger and the car
which contains an e-meter, power source (12 volt battery?), e-meter shunt.
Plug the PFC charger into the car to be tested. It doesn't matter what state
of charge the pack is at as long as it has enough power to do the course.
Turn down the charger's voltage control pot until there are no amps going
in. This means the charger is set to charge the pack to what ever voltage it
is right now.
Unplug the charger and let the car do the test course within a set time
(slow enough for public roads, fast enough not to block traffic). Plug in
the charger. When the amps stop going in, read the Kw-hrs on the e-meter.
Lowest amount wins.
You could do this as part of the monthly meetings. Have the challenger bring
his/her EV a little early. Set the charger, send him/her to do the course.
Start the meeting when he/she gets back. Let the owner show off their EV and
talk about any tweaks they are trying for better efficiency. Assuming the
course is reasonable short, by the end of the meeting everyone will know if
you have a new champion or not.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 9:02 PM
Subject: kWh/mile challenge
Hi everyone,
At our monthly EV meeting everybody talks about how well or poorly
their EV's are doing on range. Some members claim to have great range and
efficiency but they can't prove it without damaging there battery pack and
having there car towed when it runs out of suds. So I put out a challenge
to
the other club members to backup there claim with hard numbers on
efficiency
because range is just how much lead you have on board and how efficiently
you use it.
So a special custom made award (that means homemade) will go to the
club
member that has the most efficient on-road EV, and it will be passed
around
to the member that can top the present holder of the award.
What would be a fair way to set-up this competition ?
What we came up with so far is the same e-meter and shunt set to some
generic battery settings and correct nominal voltage settings, and
everybody
will drive the same 10 mile route as many times or as often as the want.
If anybody has any suggestions on a easy, fair, FUN way of doing this
competition we would welcome them.
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> After reading James response it reminded me why we have fuses. If your
> controller jams on high even 2 seconds would feel like an eternity. What
> ratio for catastrophic failure and quick release would be safest?
Lawrence, Does your EM have an easily accessible emergency disconnect
switch? Waiting for a fuse to blow in this situation could be disastrous.
You could ram the car in front of you or chug out into a busy intersection.
If anyone is interested, I tied a knife switch into the clutch cable on my
EM for emergency disconnection. I am direct drive, no clutch or gear box,
so the old clutch cable and lever were available. My reflex in an emergency
stop situation is to grab the clutch lever along with the brakes, so even if
I panic, I will do the right thing. I have never used it under load, so it
may only be good for one operation at full load. Also, it never gets warm
in operation, so I know it's not adding much resistive loss to the circuit.
http://www.geocities.com/oaksofclearcreek/emergency_disconnect.htm
(I'm working on a shoe string budget, so construction is pretty rough)
Mark T.
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I have a Ford Courier Pickup truck converted to full electric by Jet
> Industries
> in 1981 (or soon thereafter)
>
> The charging receptacle where I plug in a 110 plug has gone
> bad (the power pin has worn loose and the connection is
> intermittent; way bad) I could just replace it with a modern
> 3 pin twist-lock plug & receptacle
> except
> for the safety interlock. What might normally be a center
> ground pin has instead been replaced with a plug-button
> safety switch. When the plug
> is inserted,
> the center pin is pressed in and allows charging, but not motion. I
> believe it
> is a disconnect for the main contactor.
>
> Any suggestions where to find this? I tried the hubbell site
> and found
> nothing
> with a center safety button.
Hi Roger,
I'm no expert on receptacles. It sounds like this might be something Jet
cobbled together. I don't think the safety button could have been a ground,
since a receptacle only has one. And you still have a ground pin. (You do,
don't you? Very Dangerous if you don't.)
There is also a good reason *not* to use a twist-lock setup. If your car is
hit while charging or someone tries to tow it without noticing it's plugged
in, you can leave live wires exposed. A non-twist-lock will simply slip
out.
If it was me, I'd replace your parts with standard three prong connectors.
Connect a little power supply (can even be a wall wart) to the onboard
charger port with a 12V output. When the charger gets power, the little
supply will drop out a NC relay to your main contactor coil. If you have a
versatile charger like a PFC, you can use a universal input power supply
like those used on laptops.
Not only does this cover your needs, it should be pretty low cost.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart
> On your efficiency race, I think you are falling into the trap of making
> it too complicated. I would suggest going the opposite way; ENCOURAGE
> creative and outside-the-box solutions!
Now that is what I'm talking about, I want it to be very easy and fun. I
want club members to see that when they spend more money on T-145 batteries
to get better range and then put the cheapest tires they can find on there
car that there moving in the wrong direction. If we don't know what our
WH/mile is now we won't know if we made the car better or worse when we
change something.
I was hoping that during the clubs monthly meeting that we could take
anybody's "street legal" EV for a ride and get a WH/mile reading, and then
we would have a month to change something like alignment, tires or brakes.
What we have to work with so far is a Fluke 98 DSO with recorder, min, max
and average readings but it will not do min, max, average in the dual scope
mode, and I have a e-meter that is not in a car at this time.
The cheap analog data acquisition module sounds like what we need, I will
check in to that. Is the GPS a overkill with what I described above on how
we will do the testing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know if the Vicor "FlatPac" series can be powered from DC? I
know internally they're DC-DC, but they have a "BUS OK" signal, which
makes me wonder if that is the DC input bus, and if it's merely
rectified / filtered AC, or if there's some other circuitry that
couldn't hanlde DC.
Anyone? (See link)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36323&item=3857113237&rd=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We carry the MTP and Prove lines. Pretty good clamps from what we have seen
so far. A 1 to 1000amp AC/DC clamp that plugs into your multimeter is
$125Canadain. A Prova CM-05 which will do milliamps with conversion is
$140.00Canadian.
Clamps with the meters already built into them starter with the TES Model
3082, a true RMS meter with a 400 and 600amp DC scale, they are
$205Canadain. You can check their website at www.mtpinst.com . Hope this
helps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I don't want to burn up the motor by lugging it.
> The bike now weighs around 700 pounds with a 250 pound rider.
>
Motor should be OK as long as you don't exceed the continuous current rating
or operate at very low RPM for an extended period of time. Motor heating is
caused mostly by current (I^2R losses). Cooling is by the fan on the shaft
rotating fast enough to move some air through the motor. Touch the brush
end of the motor to see how hot is gets after a hill climb. If you can
leave your finger on for a couple of seconds, the motor is probably OK. My
bike weighs about 750 pounds with two riders. I have no hills to climb in
my area, but I suspect my 6.7 inch ADC would overheat on an extended run up
even a slight incline with two riders. A gear box would come in very handy
is this situation. Mark T.
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--- Begin Message ---
Howdy fellow Honda driver!
Although you did your conversion in 98, didn't Del
Sols only go through 95 or so? If so, I'd like to
find out who did your adapter plate. Mine is a bit
noisy, as if it is off-center by about 1/64".
Arcing reduces brush life. I've been told that mine
may go 80-100K at the voltage (144) that I'm using.
We'll see. If you pull the brush band off of the
motor, there is a yellow clip that you can gently bend
back behind a retainer bar. Then you can pull the
brush out for examination and/or replacement. You
didn't list how many miles you've got under your belt.
Wish I could help on the Ah question, but I don't know
the capacity of Optima.
TTYL,
--- strowbridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all:
>
> It has been quite a while since I've written to the
> list and I've
> "lurked" only sporadically but in the past I have
> found the folks here
> to be an amazing resource. Relying heavily on the
> experience of the
> people here, I converted a Honda Del Sol in '98 and
> the time has again
> come for me to throw out a few questions.
>
> Work required me to bounce around the world for
> about a year and a
> half and in that time, the car sat in the garage,
> basically ignored.
> I've just finished putting in a fresh set of
> batteries (24 optima
> yellowtops) and it seems that I"ve got a bad BattPro
> equalizer. It
> releases a bit of magic smoke whenever connected to
> a battery. So, a
> few questions:
>
> 1) Is there any place that sells these? I see the
> Rudman regs and they
> look great but, for consistency and space concerns,
> I'd be interested
> in just replacing the one BattPro. (Anybody have
> any clue about what
> would cause one of these to just "go bad")
>
> 2) In resetting my E-meter, I've forgotten how to
> calculate the
> Amp-hour capacity for this kind of application (144
> VDC battery pack
> with 12 buddied pairs of Optima yellow-tops).
> Anybody know what the
> Amp-hour capacity would be or how to calculate this
> kind of
> parallel/serial arrangement?
>
> 3) How often should the brushes on a 9" Advanced DC
> motor be changed?
>
> I, as always, appreciate any help anyone can offer.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Trowbridge
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
Based on my experiences autocrossing and go-kart racing, I suggest that
you use a format in which all the contestants drive at the same time.
In autocrossing the drivers go one at a time while the others watch.
This results in a very poor seat-time-to-overall-time-spent ratio. I
recall spending 3 hours one Saturday for 90 seconds of driving time.
This causes the participants to lose interest (at least I did) and move
on to other activities. In go-kart racing we all ran the race in our
class at the same time for a much longer duration - the
seat-time-to-overall-time-spent ratio was much better than autocrossing
and I was much more likely to return because I felt my time was better
utilized.
Since you are trying to determine relative efficiency of the cars, I
suggest that all contestants drive the same preset route at the same
time - this would help to negate the effects of wind and traffic if the
drivers had gone at different times, and terrain if they were allowed to
use different routes. It would require enough monitoring systems to
cover all the cars, though - I don't know if this would be feasible or
not. How about starting at the club meeting place, driving the preset
route which ends at the club meeting place, then measuring the energy
consumption, reporting on the results, and handing over the "trophy"
right there before everyone leaves? Next month or quarter do it again.
Instant feedback on any improvements made since last time. It could
take as little as 20-30 minutes each time and everyone would be free to
go on their way to other activities.
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/5/04 8:07:47 AM >>>
LOL, maybe I will use that tip to hold the throphy for awhile;-) but
seriously we do have a lot of very very clever club members after all
they
do drive EV's, but between jobs, honeydews, finding stinkers and
decorating
our cars for Christmas I don't think anyone has time for cheating, were
just
not that competitive.
The idea here is that during our monthly EV meeting we can connect
something
(meter) and the car can go on a quick test drive, it has to be very
easy and
fun.
David Dymaxion wrote,
> Don't forget tires naturally warm and pressure goes up as you drive.
> A clever competitor could pack his tires in ice, put some water in
> the tires, pass an initial check, and have the pressure "naturally"
> increase as the car was driven. A competitor with an electrified
> Humvee could use the while-driving tire pumps. :)
>
> Maybe I missed a post, is this a safety worry? Since any competitor
> can easily pump up the tires, I wouldn't see it as an unfair
> advantage, why even worry about tire pressure?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership the other day.
While I was there, I asked about the Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs vs FCEVs.
In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai showing A FCEV above BEVs in
terms of efficiency.
Is this correct? I always thought it was the other way around.
I scanned the hand out, and made it available here:
http://smartaustin.com.nyud.net:8090/~nick/hyundai_fcv_facts.jpeg
Can somebody take a look this and see if you can find the flaw in there logic
(or mine) :)
Thanks!
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yer right, I've been doing to long that I just read it that way, and forget
it.
But the concept is a Shunt and a meter, and forget those multi hundred buck
clamp ons.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> At 12:14 PM 12/3/2004, you wrote:
> >Nick, Get a 500 amp 50 Mv Shunt...it's about $30 buck from Rod at
EVparts.
> >Go to Radio Shack, get there PC compatable meter, the good one, it's
about
> >$80 bucks
> >Set the meter to Millivolts. one Mv is 1 amp.
>
> In this case, 1mv is 10 Amps.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Me! I have 100 for sale. Berube had some for sale last year. Or
www.sg-photo.com.
Seth
Seth, where are you located? I have thought about 104 of them in my
Buggy (124.8v nominal, 2 sets of 4 by 13 cells).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> Okay folks, how many actually care a spare tire on your EV?
My EV Buggy has never carried a spare (either as an ICE buggy or as
an electric one). My VW Pickup conversion (since sold) carries a full
size spare on a factory aluminum wheel in the stock location.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
use your main contactors to connect the battery
directly to your motor.
Isn't this how contactors get welded "on"?
YES! Please don't do this. Even the list members with experience in
this area sometimes get it wrong and have to go for the safety
disconnect (you do have another safety disconnect, right?!).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote,
Place a disqualification rule for people exceeding recommended tire
pressure, checked at end of run? (have a witness?)
Actually, tire pressure is measured cold. It is expected to be over
the listed max when the tire is warm.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Note that Cruising Equipment is no more. They were bought out by Heart
Interface, who re-named the E-meter the "Link 10". Heart was in turn
bought out by Xantrex. And now Xantrex is discontinuiong the E-meter.
Are you sure Lee? I just visited the Xantrex site and they list the
Link 10 as well as the 100v and 500v prescalers. Any idea when this
is supposed to happen?
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff Rassweiler wrote:
> How about this way.
> Needed: One of Rich's PFC chargers and a box between the charger
> and the car which contains an e-meter... charge pack... let the
> car do the test course within a set time... Plug in the charger.
> When the amps stop going in, read the Kw-hrs on the e-meter.
> Lowest amount wins.
This won't work. There are too many variables getting in the way.
For one, the exact "full" point for a battery is very fuzzy. It's kind
of like asking, "How much water does a balloon hold?"
It is affected by temperature, charge rate, how the battery was
exercised, how long it sat before charging, and many more factors. Plus,
there is no consistent way to measure battery state of charge.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it hurt anything two switch a Curtis controller between two different
battery packs at different voltages? For example, let's say that you had
two different traction packs in your EV--one for normal driving and a
separate one dedicated for hi-amp driving like going up long hills. Under
normal driving conditions, you'd use the regular pack. When you saw a hill
coming, a dashboard switch would allow you to switch from one pack to the
other, perhaps even with a three-way switch with an "all off" position in
the middle. Left position on switch is Pack A, middle position is all off,
right position is Pack B.
I like Doug Hartley's system of connecting the two packs together, but was
also wondering if it would work separately this way, with a little "driver
involvement" instead of being automatic. Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something else easy to do would be to do coast-down tests. Even more
primitive, find a little hill and see who can coast furthest. You
could have categories, aero (60 to 40 mph time) and rolling (30 to 10
mph time). You could videotape a GPS display for the data. The time
scales with weight, so ideally you'd normalize the times by each
car's weight.
Perhaps easiest yet, use a spring scale to pull the cars in a parking
lot, and see which takes the minimum force to pull.
--- Richard Furniss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now that is what I'm talking about, I want it to be very easy and
> fun. I
> want club members to see that when they spend more money on T-145
> batteries
> to get better range and then put the cheapest tires they can find
> on there
> car that there moving in the wrong direction. If we don't know what
> our
> WH/mile is now we won't know if we made the car better or worse
> when we
> change something.
>
> I was hoping that during the clubs monthly meeting that we could
> take
> anybody's "street legal" EV for a ride and get a WH/mile reading,
> and then
> we would have a month to change something like alignment, tires or
> brakes.
>
> What we have to work with so far is a Fluke 98 DSO with recorder,
> min, max
> and average readings but it will not do min, max, average in the
> dual scope
> mode, and I have a e-meter that is not in a car at this time.
>
> The cheap analog data acquisition module sounds like what we need,
> I will
> check in to that. Is the GPS a overkill with what I described above
> on how
> we will do the testing.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: kWh/mile challenge
> LOL, maybe I will use that tip to hold the throphy for awhile;-) but
> seriously we do have a lot of very very clever club members after all they
> do drive EV's, but between jobs, honeydews, finding stinkers and
decorating
> our cars for Christmas I don't think anyone has time for cheating, were
just
> not that competitive.
>
You clearly don't have Dave Cloud in your back yard to compete with!!! I do
NOT want to compete with him on a range run...After all he IS the leading
Electrathon builder.
Some of his street cars get to look a lot like the 'Thons.
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--- Begin Message ---
Here's my take on it.
They took the whole conversion cost of electricity for the EV from well to
car to including refining, generation, and delivery, assuming only liquid
fuels were used to produce the electricity, not using the US National
average mix.
AND they took the compression cost for Hydrogen, assuming the hydrogen
already exists and only has to be compressed, completely overlooking the
refining process to extract the hydrogen and then it's subsequent
delivery.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Nick Austin
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 12:12 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership the other day.
>
> While I was there, I asked about the Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs vs
> FCEVs. In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai showing A FCEV
> above
> BEVs in terms of efficiency.
>
> Is this correct? I always thought it was the other way around.
>
> I scanned the hand out, and made it available here:
> http://smartaustin.com.nyud.net:8090/~nick/hyundai_fcv_facts.jpeg
>
> Can somebody take a look this and see if you can find the flaw in there
> logic (or mine) :)
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This could be correct if you use old coal fired plants to produce
the electricity (which is I think the way most of US electricity
is produced). It could be made to would look radically different
if you used wind/hydro/solar (nuclear) energy and defined that the
conversion of these energy types to electricity is 100% efficient,
which it is not. It is probably even worse (I think solar is 10%)
However, once you have electricity, BEVs are the most efficient
approach. Converting electricity (back) to hydrogen is very
inefficient.
They also refined hydrogen from natural gas, which blows all the carbon
present in natural gas into the atmosphere at that point instead
of the tailpipe. BEVs in contrast blow all the carbon in the
air at the coal fired plant (at least if you take the US average
power production facility) and may thus produce more CO2 than their
ICE counterparts.
There are still a number of BEV advantages, like no tailpipe
emissions, possibly better catalysts/filters at the power plants,
use of local resources and thus no need for oil tankers to
make a mess in the sea or presidents to "liberate" other
countries etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am very much for BEVs - unfortunately we
need to generate our power from something else than WV coal or
at least have more modern coal fired plants.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Austin
> Sent: Montag, 6. Dezember 2004 00:12
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership the other day.
>
> While I was there, I asked about the Well-to-wheel efficiency
> of BEVs vs FCEVs.
> In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai showing A
> FCEV above BEVs in
> terms of efficiency.
>
> Is this correct? I always thought it was the other way around.
>
> I scanned the hand out, and made it available here:
> http://smartaustin.com.nyud.net:8090/~nick/hyundai_fcv_facts.jpeg
>
> Can somebody take a look this and see if you can find the
> flaw in there logic
> (or mine) :)
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the late notice....
Gov't surplus auction
7800 lbs of SAFT Aircraft starting NiCads - unused, mftd 11/95.
Located in Richmond Va.
Bids must be in by 0800 Eastern, 7 Dec. Can bid electronically.
See item 21 in http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5006.pdf
I have no further information....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi all, a friend of mine is considering buying a
citicar. we found this one on the EV trading post, but
with no asking price or description:
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=306&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=17
if the link doesnt work, its the one towards the top.
what should we offer...if its in working condition? or
if the batteries arent working....
also, can these things be made highway legal?
could we get it up 55-60mph? not that I would
personally want to go that fast in one of those, but
is it possible with in reason? what kind of investment
would it take, upgrade to 8" motor and maybe 72V pack
or more....
Thanks,
Brian B.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:50 AM 6/12/04 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
2 3/8" or 60mm fuse length this is center bolt to center bolt. The fuse
is flat with open ends (one at a 90° angle for insertion) and fits under
the top of the Lectra frame.
Hi Lawrence
Sort of like this?
|<-----60mm------->|
Top view
_____________________ _
[____ | | | | |
____)| | |_| |
[_____|___________|_______|
Side view
___________
======|___________|========
I'd hazard a guess that it's not an HRC fuse and that the following
description fits the fuse (apart from the current rating):
FUSE, FORK LIFT TRUCK 355A;
Current, fuse rating: 355A;
Approval Bodies: DIN43560/1;
Centres, fixing: 60mm;
Depth, external: 10mm;
Diameter, fixing hole: 11mm;
Length / Height, external: 82mm;
Length, body: 32mm;
Material, case: Ceramic;
Voltage rating, DC: 80V;
Width, external: 22mm
If you go to http://au.farnell.com/ and in the search box stick 607721 you
will see this fuse (price is in australian dollars). If so, it should't be
too hard to find locally to you - Farnell is the same company as Newark,
but you should be able to find it at a better price if you shop around.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm... I sent this e-mail to the list yesterday and it didn't go through??? :
Hi,
Okay, I got the shunt inserted into the motor loop now. I haven't been
out for a drive yet, but did measure the current on the motor side with
the car parked.
With the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged:
RPM MOTOR Amps
1000 65
1500 70
2000 76
2500 74
3000 71
3500 71
4000 74
4500 72
With the transmission in neutral and the clutch DIS-engaged:
RPM MOTOR Amps
1000 60
2000 62
3000 65
4000 71
The motor ALWAYS took at least 60 amps to keep it spinning. When I would
start the motor from a stop, it would pull up to 220 amps until it
picked up speed. When I would increase it's speed while it was already
spinning, it would pull 120-180 or so amps.
Does this help diagnose the problem? Hopefully I'll have Motor current
readings with the motor under load by tomorrow.
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
------------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 23:44, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> >
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > > How hot does the motor get??
> > >
> > > I have noticed that the motor seems to get hot -- in opinion too hot.
> > > Even after a shorter (~6 mile drive), the motor shaft and both casing
> > > ends are too hot to touch. I'll try to get an actual temp. reading from
> > > my multimeter (which has a temp. probe)...
> > >
> > > Now that I think about it, I have also noticed sort of a "burning
> > > brakes" smell coming from the motor after longer (~10+ mile) trips. This
> > > is especially noticeable after trips which have included hills or
> > > inclines, which have included me pulling up to 380 amps on the battery
> > > side. This smell is definitely NOT the front brakes. I've had those
> > > fixed and they no longer smell. The smell comes straight up from the
> > > motor. I thought at first that it might be due to the motor still being
> > > relatively new, but now that I've got 468.4 EV miles on the Jeep (I keep
> > > a good log), I can't imagine that being the case.
> > >
> > > > No load and a good speed should be like 25 to 50 amps...Motor amps,
> > > > almost nothing battery amps.
> > >
> > > I just hooked back up the Tachometer sensor (which works ok when it
> > > feels like it), and did a little test. With the transmission in neutral,
> > > the motor pulls the following currents (give or take a few amps):
> > >
> > > RPM Current drawn (battery side current)
> > > 1000 8 amps
> > > 2000 15 amps
> > > 3000 20 amps
> > > 4000 40 amps
> > >
> > I'll say 4800 watts to spin up, that's 6.43 Hoursepower to freespin....
> > Ok NOW we are getting somewheres......
> >
> >
> > > These are BATTERY SIDE current readings, with NO load on the motor
> > > except for the spinning aluminum flywheel/hub, clutch disc, and pressure
> > > plate. I'm guessing that this is way too much current being pulled if
> > > I'm supposed to see no more than 50 motor amps?
> > >
> > > I'll try to get my 400 amp shunt in the motor loop this weekend if I
> > > have some spare cables around here with eyelets on them... otherwise
> > > I'll have to order some more and wait...
> > >
> > > Last questions... If this is a motor problem, I'm assuming it could be
> > > repaired (at a motor shop)? Are motors like this usually expensive to
> > > repair?
> >
> > Oh oh!
> > Well yea depending on the problems.
> > Most of us racers can do a 9" incher rebuild. Shipping is a few hunder
> > bucks, you can't use UPS because the motor is too heavy.
> > A motor rebuild shop can help, ones that do fork truck and Golf cart
> > rebuilds.
> >
> > And once you get it out... again.... Many on this list can lead you through
> > testing and repair it it's simple bolt and unbolt stuff.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, your's are getting out.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 4:16 AM
Subject: hello, is this thing on?
no messages in almost 24 hours...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Valence Li-ion batteries were designed to be "very safe". Because of that,
they have a lower Wh/kg and are more expensive that TS batteries.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ed Rowan
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 8:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Li-Ion Batteries
Looks like a Canadian company, Alternativ Canada is making EV's
with Lithium-ion batteries for lease. Story is at
<http://powerelectronics.com/news/electric-vehicles-li-ion/>
The battery manufacturer, Valence Technology Inc. has a web page
at http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
They have some discharge curves comparing their product to lead
acid but I didn't see any prices so if you are interested, guess you
have to give them a call.
Ed Rowan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last winter I was towing the neighborhood kids around in the snow on a
plastic saucer behind my motorcycle. At the low speeds and the heavy load
my motor was running quite hot. The answer was simple. I had the kids dump
a big armful of snow on the end bell everytime I came around to pick another
one up :-)
From: "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Bad gear ratio on Stock Lectra.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:39:55 -0600
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I don't want to burn up the motor by lugging it.
> The bike now weighs around 700 pounds with a 250 pound rider.
>
Motor should be OK as long as you don't exceed the continuous current
rating
or operate at very low RPM for an extended period of time. Motor heating
is
caused mostly by current (I^2R losses). Cooling is by the fan on the shaft
rotating fast enough to move some air through the motor. Touch the brush
end of the motor to see how hot is gets after a hill climb. If you can
leave your finger on for a couple of seconds, the motor is probably OK. My
bike weighs about 750 pounds with two riders. I have no hills to climb in
my area, but I suspect my 6.7 inch ADC would overheat on an extended run
up
even a slight incline with two riders. A gear box would come in very handy
is this situation. Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow! short notice!
I live close enough (Baltimore, MD-150 miles) that I could help facilitating
this if someone on the list makes the purchase. I couldn't store 6 pallets of
batteries, but I'd be interested in buying some if anyone gets the lot.
How did you find this, I've had no luck at all trying to navigate the gov't
surplus web sites?
Mike Shipway
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, December 6, 2004 08:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
>
> Sorry for the late notice....
>
> Gov't surplus auction
>
> 7800 lbs of SAFT Aircraft starting NiCads - unused, mftd 11/95.
> Located in Richmond Va.
>
>
> Bids must be in by 0800 Eastern, 7 Dec. Can bid electronically.
>
> See item 21 in http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5006.pdf
>
> I have no further information....
>
> --
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai showing A FCEV above
BEVs in terms of efficiency.
Is this correct?
I'm on the road and don't have the ability to check the handout, but
I've seen many like it. If it came from Hyundai, I expect it is
essentially marketing material and not hard science.
Typically, these "studies" are only considering a very limited scope, or
perhaps comparing the best case FCEV against the worst case BEV or
something.
Bottom line is you have to evaluate the motives behind the people
presenting the information. Is it a pure research source? If so, who is
funding the study? Is is a political advocacy organization? Then what
are they advocating (FCEVs)? Is it a manufacturer? Then what are they
selling? Odds are it is not a BEV. 8^)
Remember that Ford claimed their ULEV rated gasser car was "cleaner"
than a BEV and had facts and figures to back it up (based on a very
narrow criteria). The fact that this is ovbiously an untrue claim (when
all the factors are considered) was beside the point.
A lot of these "studies" are little more than skewed marketing materials
produced by a manufacturer and repeated as "fact" by advocacy, industry,
or political organizations.
Keep your grain of salt handy. 8^)
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
