EV Digest 3968
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fwd: [eaaev] EAA Funds CalCars' PRIUS+ Plug-in Hybrid
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) hydrogen vs. solar
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Just saying....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Just saying....
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV Taxes
by "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) An Invitation to: The Nets Best Alternative Fuel Vehicle Forums!
by justin vandeusen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Just saying....
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: An Invitation to: The Nets Best Alternative Fuel Vehicle Forums!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Just saying....and winter driving
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Just saying....
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Just saying....
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Was: 200sx GVWR, now CivicwithACord GVWR
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Just saying....
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) I need Nicad batteries
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I need Nicad batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: An Invitation to: The Nets Best Alternative Fuel Vehicle Forums!
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hooray for the EAA for backing the CalCars Initiative!
--- Kim Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:03:13 -0800
> Subject: [eaaev] EAA Funds CalCars' PRIUS+ Plug-in
> Hybrid
>
>
> Great news!! The Electric Auto Association (EAA) has
> voted to support the
> California Cars Initiative (CalCars), contributing
> funds and urging its
> members to join the effort to make "plug-in hybrid
> electric vehicles"
> (PHEVs) available to drivers worldwide.
>
> Please see http://www.eaaev.org/ for the latest
> press release with details.
> ------------------------------------------
> Kim Rogers
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Three interesting articles in the San Francisco
Chronicle today:
One on the hydrogen fuel boondoggle:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/12/20/MNGEPAEI591.DTL
One on how a Berkeley solar-power company had to go
all the way to Germany to do a booming business:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/20/MNGRAAEL4B1.DTL
And a third on how Gov. Schwarzenneger says he wants
solar panels on a million homes but proposes
incentives that pale in comparison with Germany's:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/12/20/MNGD1AEFM31.DTL
If you want to take this opportunity to send a letter
to the editor (which is the most-read section of any
newspaper, people), email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Auto Association
415-681-7716
www.sfeaa.org
There are 941 electric vehicles and neighborhood electric vehicles in San
Francisco (DMV statistics). Driving with no gas, no oil, no noise, no emissions
-- no kidding!
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd just like to say for the record that out of four cars in my driveway
this morning (with the temps at 6 degrees):
The van was stuck in a parking lot with frozen brakes
The Porsche 944S had solid frozen doors
And the 911L flat-refused to turn over.
The only car that worked was the Prizm. Fired right up, warmed up the
inside with the heater at the cost of 1.5ah on the pack, and took me to
the train station, kids to school and wife for groceries. Also probably
the only car that could make it up a driveway of ice.
Once again: Impressed with Hawkers. Even cold they can still get the car
going (albeit with a gentle throttle). Yes the range is probably less
than 50%, but we can get it all done with 10-15 mile hops.
I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM equipped car in
sub-freezing temps?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM
>equipped car in
>sub-freezing temps?
Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road, I have no
advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it would
perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep them at
about 85 degrees or so.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys, I got the info on Fed Tax credits, Its full of it ! ! !.
I called my congressman from Ks, and told him about it, He told me
to have all of you write your congressmen,and tell them the same
thing, That there is NO tax credits for conversions... They only
give tax brakes for cars built by the atuo companys,silly isnt it ,
because there arnt any of them building any I understand..
His office people from Wichita are comeing tomarrow to our shop to
see what were doing, and try and get more info on the field of EVs.
Sen Pat Roberts wants to have a bill made up for retroactive
service,about 2 years back. this way we can all gain from it.
There was a bill in congress about tax credits,,im told,, that
didnt pass because of 1 oil well in alaska, that killed it,,SSDD.
He wants to have the bill redrawn and see if it can pass, did I
stir up a pot of it or what???? any way I sure hope it can help us
all,,,Seeya sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(Hope this works)
Hello Everyone,
I am new to the group but would like to invite anyone
and everyone to come and visit my new forum set up for
all types of alternative fuel vehicles including EV's.
I would like to try to make the forums
the premiere forum to go for any and all information
regarding AFV's. I hope no one feels threatened by the
invitation (particuarly the mods here), I only made
the gesture out of interest of this group and the
subject matter. From what I have read so
far, this looks like a good group of people who enjoy
sharing their knowledge and skills to help others in
their EV adventures. I myself want to join the frey
soon with a 144VDC Compact Pickup Conversion this
Spring. I can't wait! I enjoyed what I have read so
far and plan to keep reading and start contributing
what I can for theEV group here. Thanks for reading
this message, hope to see you on the boards
and here in the EV Group!
-Justin
wwww.guffs.net/forums
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, last year it got cold after the quantum performance drop, but I
could still get about 15-17 miles out of it. I think I did a bad thing
by trying to up the charge voltage to compensate for the cold; might
have wound up drying the pack further.
The nice part is the performance is still "good". By good I mean I can
draw 120 amps with a running voltage of 290, and 150 with a running
voltage of 285 after 10ah. This is on a 300 volt base pack, so not too bad.
How do flooded cars work? I know the E20 (6 T105's) will still put out
in the snow, but range is half at best.
Chris
John Westlund wrote:
I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM
equipped car in
sub-freezing temps?
Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road, I have no
advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it would
perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep them at
about 85 degrees or so.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Justin,
I tried this,
wwww.guffs.net/forums
just to see what you had, but
I got a generic page,
http://templates.doteasy.com/ErrorPages/error404/
Let us know when it works,
Rod
--- justin vandeusen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> (Hope this works)
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am new to the group but would like to invite
> anyone
> and everyone to come and visit my new forum set up
> for
> all types of alternative fuel vehicles including
> EV's.
> I would like to try to make the forums
> the premiere forum to go for any and all information
> regarding AFV's. I hope no one feels threatened by
> the
> invitation (particuarly the mods here), I only made
> the gesture out of interest of this group and the
> subject matter. From what I have read so
> far, this looks like a good group of people who
> enjoy
> sharing their knowledge and skills to help others in
> their EV adventures. I myself want to join the frey
> soon with a 144VDC Compact Pickup Conversion this
> Spring. I can't wait! I enjoyed what I have read so
> far and plan to keep reading and start contributing
> what I can for theEV group here. Thanks for reading
> this message, hope to see you on the boards
> and here in the EV Group!
>
> -Justin
>
> wwww.guffs.net/forums
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
My TEVan is parked until the salt is off the roads,
there are very few replacement parts for a salt
corroded TEVan. When I worked at GE I drove a TEVan
that belonged to Chrysler. I didn't care what broke
or corroded, I didn't own the vehicle and they paid to
fix any problems I had.
The van drove great in snow except for the low ground
clearance on the back roads that had 8" plus of snow
piled up between the tire tracks. The van did a fine
job of 'plowing' the snow and flatening out this snow
sticking up with the battery packs as the snow blade.
I was also able to do John Wayland type peel outs with
a TEVan (OK, it was snow, but the tires spun freely).
Didn't have too much problem with range, the NiCd's
performed well and kept the van warm while
transporting the toddler to the baby sitter.
P.S. you scored extra bonus points with the wife for
using the EV for transportation on a snowy day.
Rod
--- Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, last year it got cold after the quantum
> performance drop, but I
> could still get about 15-17 miles out of it. I think
> I did a bad thing
> by trying to up the charge voltage to compensate for
> the cold; might
> have wound up drying the pack further.
>
> The nice part is the performance is still "good". By
> good I mean I can
> draw 120 amps with a running voltage of 290, and 150
> with a running
> voltage of 285 after 10ah. This is on a 300 volt
> base pack, so not too bad.
>
> How do flooded cars work? I know the E20 (6 T105's)
> will still put out
> in the snow, but range is half at best.
>
> Chris
>
>
> John Westlund wrote:
>
> >>I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an
> AGM
> >>equipped car in
> >>sub-freezing temps?
> >
> >
> > Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road,
> I have no
> > advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how
> it would
> > perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep
> them at
> > about 85 degrees or so.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
I have run my EV at temperatures of 33 below zero with a wind chill at 50
below. The car was setting in the parking lot at work for about 9 hours.
Every body else had to go out and start there ICE cars every fours hours. I
ended up jumpering a lot of ICE's and had no problem starting up and moving
thru a foot of snow like a snow plow.
This gave everybody a track to follow.
It was a clear day which cause a lot of heat to radiant off which gave these
low temperatures. I park my car with the glass hatch back facing the sun.
This warms up the battery compartment which kept it above 70 degrees all day
long.
Also I have my battery box enclosure tripled insulated with three layers of
2 inch foam with a six inch air space between two layers of foam.
Each layer of foam was also cover with a layer a carpet, the battery
container slides in another enclosure which is foam and carpet insulation.
On a cloudy day, this compartment has at time remain above 70 degrees over a
8 hour period.
At home in or outside garage, I would plug in a battery heater, the ones
made by KAT'S which also makes engine heaters.
I found it was best to take that energy to maintain 70 degrees, and heat my
garage at 70 degrees instead with a heating system.
I also insulated my garage walls to 65 R-Factor using 2 layers of 10-Factor
Foam and 3 layers of 15-Factor Foam. Also the ceiling in a combination of
foam and fiberglass insulation that is insulated to 136-Factor. The Garage
door is a double foam door that is 29-Factor.
Its now takes less energy to continues maintain 70 degree heat. The
advantage here is, that not only are you heating the batteries, but the
whole car. This helps maintain the battery temperature at 70 degrees.
Also in summer, the area below the glass hatch that is over the battery is
shaded with a solar reflected material and is air vented. The maximum
temperature these batteries got, was 85 degrees with a outside surface
temperature of 110 degrees.
To see this Car, just type in your search engine:
Roland Wiench 1977 El Camino Electro
You do not need any http www dot com or anything like that
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Just saying....
> >I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM
> >equipped car in
> >sub-freezing temps?
>
> Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road, I have no
> advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it would
> perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep them at
> about 85 degrees or so.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I can confirm the rumor: the 200sx is indeed alive. Ryan was
gracious enough to let me come up to visit (and drive!) the 200sx this past
weekend. I even got to smell that stinker Orbital he reported. Ryan did an
awesome job on this car, and I learned a lot just looking at some of the
solutions he devised. BTW, he did it all in less than 8 months, while
simultaneously working on his degree to boot--and without a garage! Thanks
for the visit and the inspiration, Ryan.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM
>>equipped car in
>>sub-freezing temps?
>
>Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road, I have no
>advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it would
>perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep them at
>about 85 degrees or so.
Invest enough in heating up a cold lead pack and you may be better off with a
NiCd pack that doesn't care how cold it is. You could end up with a pretty high
kwh/mi in the Great White North if you factor in heating requirements to
maintain battery performance - anyone know how well a NiCd pack handles the
Arctic chill?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you need to drive the car and see if the brakes fade on hard
stops. Work up to this slowly 25mph ...stop check your distance do this
several times and if your distances change drastically then you need to
up grade the brakes. Increase you speeds ten mph and retest but be
careful. I did this test on a race track at some very high speeds and
learned a lot. Like it takes the same amount of braking force to slow
from 100 mph to 70 mph as it does to go from 70 mph to zero.
Disclaimer I am not an expert please use this information at your own risk.
Mike G.
Bob Bath wrote:
Well, timing is perfect, as I got weighed today, post
conversion.
Stock Civvy (DX 4 dr). 2220
Final Weight 3300
Batteries weight (18 x 71): 1278
Motor 120 lbs.
That means I lost around 270 lbs. in engine block;
controller and charger make up the remaining 20 or so.
At 2220 lbs, available cargo cap. is listed as 850.
That means GVWR is 3070. So before I hop inside, I'm
over by 230 lbs. Add 160 of me, and I'm almost 400
over.
Okay, so about that brake upgrade... (:-<
--- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The owner's manual for my Ranger lists four GVWR's,
one for each
combination of manual/auto transmission and rear
axle ratio. Given
that everything else is the same on the vehicle,
something as simple
as the transmission and axle ratio can make a
difference in GVWR.
Tim
-------
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
One of the factors in the gvwr is the size of the
brakes. Remember this
vehicle has to STOP !
Mike G.
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=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They love it. NiCad forces had no battery heat AFAIK, and the Ovonics
NiMH was OK in the cold without heat, although there was a performace
loss. Not as bad as cold Gel batteries, but there. Gel needed heat.
Even so, the heat was at times marginally enough.
Seth
On Dec 20, 2004, at 9:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I like electrics. Reliable. Any hints running an AGM
equipped car in
sub-freezing temps?
Since I have yet to get a working EV on the road, I have no
advice, but I'd be very interested in seeing how it would
perform in the cold with battery heaters to keep them at
about 85 degrees or so.
Invest enough in heating up a cold lead pack and you may be better off
with a
NiCd pack that doesn't care how cold it is. You could end up with a
pretty high
kwh/mi in the Great White North if you factor in heating requirements
to
maintain battery performance - anyone know how well a NiCd pack
handles the
Arctic chill?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like it but the paper did not mention the btu's available only the
temperature of 130'. In comparison a typical ICE heater is the same temp
as the engine approx 200'f it sounds to me like the heat exchanger
would need to be rather large.
Mike G.
Doug Weathers wrote:
On Friday, December 17, 2004, at 06:43 PM, M.G. wrote:
How about a chemical reaction that could be undone ( recharged ) at
the same time the batteries were being charged?
MikeG.
That's a really interesting idea. Something like sodium acetate, like
in those reusable heat packs?
http://www.9thtee.com/reheater.htm
Actually, I just found a nice page on other phase change materials for
heat storage:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/factsheets/b103.html
It sounds like packaging is not yet fully worked out.
And this would be fairly heavy, too. I wonder if the extra complexity
and weight would be worth the savings in electricity (from not using
resistive heating from the traction pack) ?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I've thought long and hard about a traction pack and I'm set on using
NiCads. I'm going this
route primarily for cold weather tolerance, but also because they can last a
long time if treated
well. Thanks to Seth I now have a 96volt pack. I'm actually looking for more
though. This first
pack is slated for a car I just bought, but the real project I want BB600s for
will require quite
a few more. By myself I'd like to find a couple of hundred (for an AC EV.) I
don't want to speak
for anyone else, but I know there are a few others in the area who might join
me in a bulk
purchase, if I could find them. So, here's my question; Does anyone know of a
source of BB600
NiCads? Does anyone have a pallet of them sitting around they'd like to sell?
Is there another
reasonably priced (i.e. not Saft) alternative? I've spoken with the people at
SG Photo and their
well has just about dried up.
These first ones will go in an existing EV I just picked up for my first
project. It has 8
Interstate floodeds that have been sitting so long (maybe 10 years) that I have
no hope they will
work. The car was professionally converted a long time ago and they seem to
have done a pretty
good job. Curtis controller, ADC motor, Russco heater, but no charger. The
Interstates were a
little heavy for this car, so lightening the load is a big plus. They designed
it to use an
external charger, but it burned up in a fire. The car is a 1968 Saab 96. It's
in remarkably good
shape for the age, but I discovered some rust in the pan near the rear axle.
I'm not sure if I
should fix the body or use the components in another donor. Time will tell.
First I've got to
evaluate the parts and see if the car is salvageable. Does anyone have any
experience fixing old
Saabs? I want to sell the car after I get it going so I don't think I can get
away with bondo and
duct tape.
Wish me luck,
Dave Cover (No longer a lurker, but not a driver yet!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Well, I've thought long and hard about a traction pack and I'm set
> on using NiCads. I'm going this route primarily for cold weather
> tolerance, but also because they can last a long time if treated
> well.
These are good batteries. Just be sure you are "up to" the task of
properly maintaining them. Many beginning EVers murder their first pack
from ignorance and abuse; it would be a shame for this to happen to an
expensive pack of nicads.
> the real project I want BB600s for will require quite a few more.
> By myself I'd like to find a couple of hundred (for an AC EV.)
Be aware that these are flooded nicads, and need a lot of watering. That
will be a very tedious job with hundreds of cells!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Apparently this didn't go the first time, so I will try again.
For anyone interested in using a hair dryer as a heat source you might want
to check out a switch I ran across at, of all places, Home Depot. I was
shocked to notice they carry those old style surface mount light switches,
and that they are still AC/DC rated. While I haven't tried one for this,
it looks to me like they would be perfect for switching a hair dryer on and
off without the expense and complexity of relays. A flea market hairdryer,
some sort of fusing, a $4 switch from Home Depot, and instant heat. You
should be warmer without spending $20. On the down side, it looks like
they are only rated for 10 Amps. I found a picture of one on the web at:
http://www.levitonproducts.com/Catalog/Model_1210.htm?SID=V8RG5A7FCQGS8PADTG4AQB6HRTUU6R53&PID=1208
BTW, on my Civic EV I went with dual ceramic elements salvaged from two
cube heaters. Three relays with caps for snubbers, and a little wiring and
fantastic heat. The E-meter reports them pulling 31 Amps at full power
which at 156+ Volts means 4800 watts, supposedly that works out to about
16,000 BTUs. Needless to say I have to turn it down pretty quick. The
relays are controlled by an old Honda blower switch mounted in place of the
original temp control knob (panel still looks stock). Low is one half of
one element powered or about 1200 Watts, medium is one half of each element
powered, or about 2400 Watts, and high is the whole thing. Combined with
the three fan settings it gives me nine possible temp settings. Today I
really needed it, as it was only 12 degrees when I came outside. Ouch!
I also have a 900 Watt AC powered Artic-Thaw heater I found at NAPA a
couple of years ago. It is apparently a fairly common product in Canada
used on ICE cars (since they plug in to run the block heater they might was
well warm the interior too.) The mounting bracket permanently mounts in
the car, and the heater clips into it, so you can take it out in warm
weather. It came with a delay timer, but I found a seven day timer to use
instead.
I picked up a 12 Volt electric blanket on Ebay that my wife thought was the
best thing ever, though she usually kept it in our ICE Honda. Of course it
got shut in the door and ruined, so I may have to get another one.
Stay warm,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the correct URL is:
http://wwww.guffs.net/forum/
Thanks!
On Mon, Dec 20, 2004 at 05:01:45PM -0800, Rod Hower wrote:
> Justin,
> I tried this,
> wwww.guffs.net/forums
> just to see what you had, but
> I got a generic page,
> http://templates.doteasy.com/ErrorPages/error404/
> Let us know when it works,
> Rod
> --- justin vandeusen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > (Hope this works)
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I am new to the group but would like to invite
> > anyone
> > and everyone to come and visit my new forum set up
> > for
> > all types of alternative fuel vehicles including
> > EV's.
<..snip..>
> >
> > -Justin
> >
> > wwww.guffs.net/forums
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
