EV Digest 3975
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by Jorg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ground resistance weirdness causing problems
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVDL Razzie Awards?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) 1500W ceramic heater options at Target
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay (how ebay works)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVDL Razzie Awards?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Fw: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Basic electrical question
by D Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lack of knowledge of the law (physics, et.al.) is no defense
forbreaking them
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Basic electrical question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) snake oil on ebay/xmass story
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: splitting hairs, Rog V Rich.
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay, check out Karnes Dyno-Rev Engine
Inc.
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Ground resistance weirdness causing problems
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/23/04 8:06 AM, "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He's in Florida.
> He's built numerous EV's.
> He can't spell.
>
> I wonder if it recharges with a hood ornament windmill.
>
> Sounds like someone we know.
>
> Naaah, can't be. Tallahassee's nowhere near Fort Pierce.
Perhaps the weather has caused him to move?
A while back, for our first anniversary, in April 2003, my wife and I
visited Antelope Canyon in Arizona; it was part of a trip to visit Joshua
Tree, Vegas, the Grand Canyon, Zion Canyon, and Bryce Canyon.
Other than the Vegas shows, by far the best entertainment was our tour guide
from Antelope Canyony. It was just my wife and I in his truck, and the
great thing was, as the day went on, his stories got further and further
from any possibility of truth. First he explained how Antelope Canyon was
formed, which I'm pretty sure was true. Then he explained how it used to be
that no one visited, until he convinved the Indians who owned the land to
lease it out for a movie. [Insert story here about how the Indians thought
they might get $400 for the filming rights, but he got them $40,000]
Eventually he was paying them rights in order to bring people in, and
eventually it grew to be more than he could handle, and that's when BLM and
others came into the picture.
Next, he started talking about how there's still lots of gold to be found in
the area. (He said this while digging casually in the ground with his
boots, picking up rocks here and there.) The thing is, you see, the miners
feared going into the areas where the Indians were, and the Indians didn't
know of the right places to look.
Then there was a great story about how he saved some people from a flash
flood, the type of flash floods that created Antelope Canyon in the first
place. It was part of a scheme to get good video footage of the floods as
they pass through Antelope Canyon.
And it ended, with my wife listening from the back seat, as we discussed my
hobbies for building electric vehicles. His eyes lit up, as he explained
that he had built one himself, but the car companies wouldn't do it. He had
built it out of wood, he said, and the electric motor which helped to run
the car was powered by batteries that, in turn, were regenerated by a
windmill contraption on the front. At about 70, he claimed, the system
achieved breakeven and at that point he could run it as long as he wanted.
Eventually someone from a local newspaper did a story about it, to verify
the claim of 700 miles on a gallon of gas. (or 70mpg, or 700 on one tank...
I forget)
Alas, shortly after the story was published, some men in fancy suits and
sunglasses showed up at his house, and made vague threats about his family.
But although the threats were vague, the names were not - they knew his
children and wife by name and age. They explained how important it was not
to upset the delicate balance of the economy, and talked about the large
number of people he might put out of work if a car were to become popular
that needed far less gas and far less maintenance work.
... I've often thought about getting a small tape recorder I could take with
me, and this is one of the times that I was dying to have it. It was so
good and rich in detail and enthusiasm.
After we thanked him for the tour and headed back to our car, my wife gave
me a concerned look. I said, wow, I'm really lucky to have run into him -
but it was really hard as I was listening not to break out into hysterical
laughter. She relaxed and said Thank God, I thought you believed him. Of
course not, I said, but if I had pointed out all the holes in his story,
he'd surely have shut up and he'd be as boring as everyone else.
I mention all this because he was willing to sell me his blueprints for only
$40 or so. Seems a bargain compared to the eBay auction! If only I knew
where I stashed his business card...
jorg
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At 2:54 AM -0500 12-23-04, Neon John wrote:
The Zilla signal negative should be
wired back to the negative cable instead of just being tied to the nearest
hunk of chassis. Sometimes you can get away with such things but in this
case you can't, it appears.
Actually, the Zilla negative pot signal does have its own connection,
and that has a 1K ohm resistor to ground inside the Hairball. This is
to keep the antenna that is the pot wire from wiggling the signal
grounds on the Hairball.
Ryan has done some more testing with my direction, (we went over the
inability to measure ground with a DMM as well. Since he's on digest
so won't see these comments until a day later) and I think there is a
problem inside the Hairball. I've Fed-ex'd him my beta unit to use
and he'll be sending the problem one back for repairs. I'm suspecting
that we missed a solder connection, but I'll know for sure in a few
days when I see it.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
> PZEV - Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle
> I know this is an old one, but I'm seeing it everywhere because of this
> new "Hybrids in the carpool lane" legislation. Can someone please tell
> me the story of how somebody got the idea it was OK to put the word
> "partial" in front of the word "zero"? And then it somehow passed
> review?
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G/message/17910
Here's a good thread about it, Kristian (whom I often disagree with)
does know an aughful lot about this stuff, she is rather involved aswell.
I think what it comes down to is that the P-ZEV is a Credit, it's
a Partial (ZEV) Credit, not a Partial-Zero Emissions Vehicle.
I agree with you, though. These ratings should rate the vehicles and
not the credits that manufacturers get for producing them... IMHO:
S (Super) U (Ultra) LEV (Low emissions Vehicle). These should be
"Honor labels", given to cleaner than average cars.
ZEV, Zero Emissions Vehicles. A Label given to, well Zero Emissions
Vehicles, NOT some dumb "credit" to be traded off and bargined for.
P-ZEV? Like you say, what is Partial-Zero,
"Oh right it's 2/10'th of a ZEV Credit", sure that makes perfect sense.
I would suggest a solution, Call them CREDITS! in BIG BOLD LETTERS!
SULEV CREDIT, or ZEV CREDIT, or P-ZEV CREDIT (better 0.2*ZEV CREDITS)
> EVRental.com
> It's bad enough that these guys don't have any more EV's to rent out.
> But, I think they're trying to single-handedly change the definition of
> EV. See this page: http://www.evrental.com/resale.html
> "Buying a pre-owned EV is as easy as 123", they say. But click on the
> link, and you see a list of hybrids and CNG vehicles.
Ya, that's pretty annoying, Just like seeing "Clean Fuel Vehicle"
plastered on the side of the Cities Prius's, as if the gassoline that
goes into them is somehow cleaner than the gas going into other cars.
BTW. Turns out that our new Hybrid Transit Busses use more fuel
then the old busses they're replacing did, go figure. They had to
change out the diesel engine at the last minute because the one they
were using didn't meet emissions, shrugs. And why can't they hook up
to the overhead wires that the old busses use? I mean, the wires are
already there, Hydro power would fuel them, they are already "electric".
L8r
Ryan
PS. I'm really getting irritated by all these:
"Greening of the Blue Oval" Adds all over the net.
"air purifying PZEV engines" -Puking
Unfortunently, noone said CREDIT.
"Under the hood of the Ford Focus PZEV is an engine carefully designed
" to meet the latest super-ultra-low emissions standards.* That’s why
" it can be designated PZEV or, rather, Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle."
So you see, in essence, it's really a SULEV (which I'm fine with) but
since it's also Zero-Evap and has a 150K Catalitic warrentee, BAM, PZEV!
.oO( Jerks )
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At Target for $50
30" tall ceramic heater tower 1500W max with digital control
Also at target for only $21
Square style ceramic heaters at 1500W
1500W seems to be about the max on these ceramic heaters in the retail
channel
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the OT post.
Roderick mentioned that a bidder increased his bid seven times from $130
to $1000.
This is the normal way that eBay works.
When you bid on an item, you put in your MAXIMUM bid.
EBay then bids on your behalf enough money for you to win the auction,
but no greater than your set maximum.
If someone else comes along and bids something greater than the current
bid, but less than your maximum, eBay will automatically increase your
current bid to be just more than the latest bidder.
The latest bidder sees this happen, tries a higher bid, and again eBay
bids for you so that you still win the auction (but pay more money).
Eg:
Auction opens at $10.00
Person A sets their max bid to $1000 (they really want this thing)
EBay bids $11 for Person A
Person B wants the thing, sees that the current high bid is $11, and
bids a max of $20
EBay bids $21 for Person A (still less than their max)
Person B bids $30
EBay bids $31 for Person A
Person B bids $50
EBay bids $51 for Person A
Person B gives up and looks for something else to buy...
According to the bid history, Person A just bid four times, which in a
real world auction is a dumb thing to do, but in the eBay world it
happens all the time.
(I've been Person B many times :-)
Mark
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I don't recall offhand, but it seems to me that it may well have been
Electricars that exhibited exactly the bahaviour I've described.
Perhaps, however my Prizm had been sitting not charged and basically
dead for over 5 years in a Fla storage warehouse and the batteries still
charged up and ran 25 mile range for over 2k miles. They only died after
I started using the MC :-)
There are a couple of things going on in your case: you have 2 parallel
strings of 26Ah batteries and a single charger with *no* means of
determining/ensuring that the charge current is dividing equally between
them. 20A satisfies the minimum C/3 requirement for a 52Ah battery, but
that doesn't mean it is appropriate for parallel strings of 26Ah
batteries when one string could be seeing 90% of it and the other just
10%. Don't blame Hawker for a poorly designed installation that they
have no control over.
Eh. When I pulled my pack I made some very detailed charts of which
battery was where, the specific run time to 10.66vpc from a full
(individual) charge per battery, and took measuremnts during bulk charge
with the pack open (it was on jackstands for a month plus). I did not
see any real difference between the strings in the pack as for the
individual batteries between strings (ie: one was not full of more shot
batteries than the other), thus I can say with a pretty good certianty
that the strings were not out of balance WRT each other.
The C/3 charge rate was a disaster on a long string. Period. I don't
blame Hawker, I blame Chris Zach for slavishly following the details to
the letter without using common sense.
Furthermore, there is more than one way to kill a battery. All you have
found is that overcharging an AGM will cause it to dry out and will
shorten its life. You have not established that the high rate bulk
portion of the charge shortened or lengthened the cycle life of that
battery, even though its cycle life was ultimately compromised due to
overcharging/venting.
Ok, let me be clear: Charging at max current (20a) into a 52ah pack to
375 volts (15vpc) then holding at 15vpc till current drops to 2ah, then
charging to 390 volts at 1ah, then holding 390 volts for 50 minutes is a
sure-fire way to dry out a pack of Hawker 26ah AGM batteries.
Now, actually drying out a Hawker is not the end of the world. I have
refilled them with water (well, about 40), and have turned batteries
with a 12-14 minute runtime at 35a to 27-30 minutes. It's possible to
water a hawker; over the winter I am torturing a few of them in the
kid's power wheels to see just what they can take. In the meantime I
have a ton of them in the shed. I'll be trying some out on deep
discharge duty this winter in the Elec-Trak. Will 3 strings be able to
blow a lot of snow then be charged by a total-moron transformer charger
capped at 45 volts? We'll see.
The bulk portion of the charge is *not* what dries out the battery.
During this portion of the charge the voltages of the individual modules
track closely and you do *not* have modules at 16V and modules at 14V
unless you start off with a ridiculously imbalanced pack (I have
performed tests with deliberately imbalanced packs, such as a string of
T105s with an L16 randomly inserted and have not managed to get the
module voltages in bulk to differ significantly).
No, you do. I checked this with my own eyes and saw the meter: E-meter
at 340 (thus full blast charge), some batteries at 13+, some at 14, some
at 15, a few at 16, and one or two at 17.
The problem was partially that the batteries were out of balance, but
not in the sense of out of capacity. The highest voltage batteries were
basically drier than the lower voltage ones. Water in a battery is
basically a buffer against swings. If a battery is wet, it will charge
slowly with it's voltage rising at a nice slope and will discharge
slowly, once again with the voltage rising at a nice slope.
When it's drying out, the sulphuric acid becomes more concentrated and
weird stuff happens. The battery has a higher voltage under discharge;
the ones that were going to 16v were putting out 12.4 volts under C load
without a bit of voltage sag. However once they passed 12.0 volts they
would fall to 10 volts in seconds. Likewise under charge they would
shoot up to 13-14 volts in no time, then fill, then go to 15-16-17 volts
under low current. The more you did this, the dryer they got.
The wetter batteries would drop to 12 or so volts under C load, but
would then drift down like leaves to 10.66 volts. New ones could go 34
minutes or so, better ones would go 20-25. These would mask the high
value batteries, and the overall pack voltage would appear low. Causing
the dry ones to get more dry with each charge. Nasty cycle.
Add water to one of the 16 volt batteries and you get a 14 volter
performance. Thus water is like the shock absorber in the battery. As it
bolis away the pack slides out of sync and into the dumpster.
If you monitor the voltages of the individual modules during a charge
cycle you will find that it is when you switch to constant voltage that
they begin to deviate from one another.
I did. They were swinging out during constant current (go to 375 volts).
Bad.
What counts is not calendar life but cycle life. It is possible that
the Electricar parallel string installation affects charging such that
the whimpy Dolphin charger results in longer life than the Magnacharger
for reasons unrelated to the initial bulk charge rate.
Possible, I'll defer to other people around here. My cycles were mostly
light ones; I would typically discharge 10% per day, and 50% once a
week. I would never go to 80% or worse (based on 52ah) and went into the
80% once (based on a perk adjusted battery pack size of 42ah). I still
only got 6k miles and one year.
It seems to me that the Magnacharger does *not* implement Hawker's IUI
recommendations accurately, and that you personally, as I recall, ran
into trouble when you started tweaking the Magnacharger's programming.
No, I ran into trouble when I tried to *implement* the IUI. Constant
current to 375 (I), constant voltage to 390 (current limited)(U),
constant current 390 for 50 minutes. That solution toasted pack#1,
pack#2, and at least two other packs from other people. We've stopped
doing this for now :-)
So, I totally appreciate why you believe what you do, however, it is
clear to me that your experience neither proves nor disproves the
desirability of using a high charge rate on a series string of Hawkers
or other batteries. Hopefully, I have been able to clearly explain why
I believe this.
Okie dokie. However I have been very interested in this little
experiment, and took a nice new pack and applied the hawker IUI routine
to it to the letter. I wound up with a toasted pack in under a year.
This pack I am trying something different:
Charge at 7amps to 350 volts. (6 hour time limit)
This will charge the pack up to 14.0vpb at a slightly slower rate than
the max MC (vs. 20a) but at a current level a bit higher than the
recombine of the batteries. Thus if I happen to overshoot a battery or
two it will trip 350 faster than it would 375.
Hold 350 volts till 1.5amps. (2 hour time limit)
This holds the batteries at 350, giving the less full ones time to catch
up while protecting the ones that might be "there".
Charge to 375 volts at 1.5 amps. (2 hour time limit)
This takes the pack *slowly* up to 375 (15vpb) at a rate below the
recombiner max (2a). If there is a battery that is at the peak it will
start to gas internally, but will recombine out.
Hold at 375 volts for 60 minutes.
This lets the batteries catch up and all get to 15vpb.
So far from watching the E-meter, this solution gets me to within .1ah
using a CEF of 92% and a perk factor as specified in the hawker manual.
Every week or so I let the Dolphin charge the pack (at 2.5ah) up to
390volts. The Dolphin is a bit stupid, but it throttles back the current
at around 362 volts, going to .2amps at 390 for 50 minutes. This always
brings the pack back up to around .3-.5ah above zero using CEF 92% and
factory perk.
Additionally I use the Hakwer specs for temp compensation and will kill
the charge if any of the battery temp sensors go above 35 degrees C.
FWIW, when I referred to John possibly having a better balanced pack of
Hawkers if he followed Hawker's recommendations, it was the finish
charge rather than initial charge rate I was specifically alluding to.
The bulk rate has little if any impact on the balance of the pack, and
with John's use of dump charging at the track, his little Hawker pack
almost certainly never had to worry about being bulk charged *below*
Hawker's recommendations! ;^> 20A? 200A is more likely, and this into
a single string of batteries 1/2 the size of yours (1/4 the capacity of
your paralleled strings).
*nod* This is why I think the regen from braking can make the pack happy
if it likes brief high-current charges. 150A is quite possible on the
road, maybe that plus the Dolphin is the right answer.
I think though that unless you have a way to put a screaming halt to the
bulk rate if any battery goes above 14.7 volts, then you will dry out
the pack and kill it. Thus my next project, which is to *finally*
install the super battery monitor system. Once that's in I will be able
to watch the batteries hit 14.7 volts. At that point I will refine the
MC charge protocols such that it charges like a madman, then shuts back
*just* as the first monitor LED lights up green. Then cuts off when all
of them are a nice happy warm green (14.7-15.0), and none are yellow (>15.7)
Chris
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As I pointed out when PZEVs first appeared, this is something fabulous!
We all thought that our zero emission vehicles (EVs) were the least polluting
vehicles available, but no more. Now there are vehicles that are so clean that
they emit only a part - a fraction - of what our ZEVs do! So we should all
immediately junk our ZEVs and buy PZEVs. Then we'll all be doing our civic
duty to clean up the air.
Well, most of us, anyway. I can't. Honest, I'm a Good Citizen, and I'd buy
one - maybe even two - but my bank account seems to have diminished.
Last year, it was zero. Now it's fallen to partial zero. :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/23/2004 9:15:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Also he
misspelled "strick" [ed. strict] but got "restriction" correct. It just
seemed odd. Almost like someone trying to dumb down his spelling smarts in
an arrogant way. That's where I was coming from. >>
I am an Automotive instructor. I keep up with industry trends on a listserve
much like this one but much larger. Easily 1/3 of the tech's who post cant
spell well. Some of the best tech's I've known and some of the best students
I've
taught have dyslexia.
While dyslexia is a drag, the upside is that those that have it seem to be
blessed with spatial skills and hand eye coordination (tool skills) far beyond
average.
I am sure that there are lots of dumb auto *mechanics* out there who cant
spell, but there are also hunderds of thousands of bright, qualified
*technicians*out there, many of whom spell poorly due to a medical condition.
Ben
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--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Dec 2004 at 10:49, Ken Trough wrote:
> I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current charging" Myth
> comes from. It certainly is not true. They are just simple PbLa AGM
> batteries. Light charges, heavy charge rates, it doesn't matter.
This is what Solectria discovered when they fitted Forces with Hawkers for a
time in the mid-90s. The packs rapidly dropped in capacity unless they were
charged with high current (level II or higher) equipment. It was related to me
by one of their tech support people, and I also heard it third-hand from some
other Solectria users. It was also mentioned in a Connecticut or New
Hampshire EV program report, which I think is regrettably no longer available
on line.
Some of their users bought the big chargers (for big bucks), but others didn't
have the budget. So Solectria switched to Sonnenschein / East Penn gel
batteries and found them free from this phenomenon. Long time list
members may remember that shortly thereafter Solectria disposed of their
stock of Hawkers, offering them at a bargain price on this list.
(They continued to use those gel batteries through the rest of the production
run, with reasonable success.)
I believe that Nawaz has also mentioned (in a generic sense) the need that
many lead batteries have for periodic high current "slams." I'm not an
electrochemist, so I can't explain it, but he probably can.
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Thanks!
Here's a little treat for you: http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf
Peter
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OOps!! I meant to send this as an off list email:
> Thanks!
>
> Here's a little treat for you: http://web.icq.com/shockwave/0,,4845,00.swf
>
> Peter
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I am building a charger for my planned EV. I am using a 20 amp variac, and a
bridge rectifier on a large heatsink. I am going to start with a 48 volt pack,
but this could change, thus I thought the variac set-up would suit my needs as
well as my pocket book.
The main components are the variac and the bridge rectifier, but I have also
included a 0-20amp digital amp guage and a 0-200vdc digital voltmeter guage.
Both of these guages run on a 5vdc supply, so I robbed a nice little power
supply out of an old servo drive I had. The 5v power supply has the
conventional transformer and regulating circuits, it's not a switching supply.
The problem I have is there was a little smoke when I turned everything on, and
then turned the variac up a little bit. What I discovered was the neg voltage
input terminal on the digital guage has a small trace that runs over to the
negative 5vdc supply terminal. They referenced the neg of the 5v supply to the
neg of the input terminal. The smoke was this small trace burning in two.
I thought the drawbacks of using a variac were a safety issue since the
battery terminals will be referenced to the 120v ac line coming in. Did I
overlook another possible conflict with the 5vdc power supply? Since it has a
transformer, I figured I would be ok. I am thinking of just tying the neg of
the 5vdc supply directly to the neg output of the bridge rectifier(which in
effect, is the neutral of the incoming line). Anyone see any problems with
this? Another possible solution? If I have to have a isolation transformer,
anyone have any sources for one I could get surplus? I am assuming it would
need to be about 2400watts in size.
Dave F
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! – What will yours do?
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I got the listing removed by ebay message. Bout time. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:09 PM
Subject: Lack of knowledge of the law (physics, et.al.) is no defense
forbreaking them
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4512963146
The link now gives this message:
This listing (4512963146) has been removed by eBay.
So I guess all the EVers saying it was a fraud finally made a difference.
And
what little we know of our universe stays intact.
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--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
Today's newest EVers want their conversions to accelerate, steer,
brake, and pull hills
just like a regular gas car can. Trying to do this using traditional
golf car batteries is
all but impossible. If one states that these batteries can deliver
high range and high
life, then one should also state all the things one must give up in
order to achieve these
benchmarks.
A 20 GC battery pack (120 volts and about 1200lbs) will only put out
about 400 amps without a reduction in life. The vehicle that can take
that pack will most likely weigh about 3000lbs (often a little more).
You can deliver about 48hp to the road with that voltage and amp
level. The EV in this example will be pushing 62lbs per HP. A GC
battery itself has a weight/ power ratio of about 20lbs per HP (5.5
volts at 400 amps in a 60lbs battery).
The Blue Meanie pushes <15lbs per HP (in the DCP1200, 13 Optima
form.) My Old Dodge with a /6 pushed (I sold it) about 20lbs per HP
(nearly identical to the Tacoma Pickup that replaced it). The first
generation US Prius has about 27lbs per HP. My EV Buggy has about
30lbs per HP (10 Optimas, a Curtis 1221b controller) and I'm thinking
about power upgrades when the time comes to change the battery pack.
GC powered EVs do work. They can be less expensive to build and
operate. However, its important to be honest about the limitations
too. Performance will not be comparable to the ICE vehicle converted
in almost every case.
Neon
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The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need separate supplies. Use
two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "D Franklin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:15 PM
Subject: Basic electrical question
> I am building a charger for my planned EV. I am using a 20 amp variac,
and a bridge rectifier on a large heatsink. I am going to start with a 48
volt pack, but this could change, thus I thought the variac set-up would
suit my needs as well as my pocket book.
>
> The main components are the variac and the bridge rectifier, but I have
also included a 0-20amp digital amp guage and a 0-200vdc digital voltmeter
guage. Both of these guages run on a 5vdc supply, so I robbed a nice little
power supply out of an old servo drive I had. The 5v power supply has the
conventional transformer and regulating circuits, it's not a switching
supply.
>
> The problem I have is there was a little smoke when I turned everything
on, and then turned the variac up a little bit. What I discovered was the
neg voltage input terminal on the digital guage has a small trace that runs
over to the negative 5vdc supply terminal. They referenced the neg of the
5v supply to the neg of the input terminal. The smoke was this small trace
burning in two.
>
> I thought the drawbacks of using a variac were a safety issue since the
battery terminals will be referenced to the 120v ac line coming in. Did I
overlook another possible conflict with the 5vdc power supply? Since it has
a transformer, I figured I would be ok. I am thinking of just tying the neg
of the 5vdc supply directly to the neg output of the bridge rectifier(which
in effect, is the neutral of the incoming line). Anyone see any problems
with this? Another possible solution? If I have to have a isolation
transformer, anyone have any sources for one I could get surplus? I am
assuming it would need to be about 2400watts in size.
>
> Dave F
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If I thought for a second that Steve would take offense at this then I
> wouldn't have posted it.
But, I don't think Steve is that shallow, and I
> hope he got a chuckle out of it.
My wife is pretty sure I;m nuts as I set in the back room howling with
laughter at some for the post ,
After all he himself has poked fun at his
> spelling errors. Heck, even I misspelt "can't".
I'll leave the spell checker off , just for the fun of it .
> dyslexia.
Yes I have it , can't tell my right form my left , still after 51 years ,
funny how easy you can spot this now,
>I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has clobbered together a lot of EVs
>while I'm still trying to get my first one on the road.
When I see some of the fine work others have done "clobbered" seems to sum
it up, but at this point in the game I realy am trying to do some nice neat
work, or as I like to say "put the J,W on it", . This of course makes things
take longer to get done.
Your first May look better than my 10th , Just keep at it .
a true christmass story .
Before the Murucery lynx became Clunn car 2 it was my wifes car and there
was a day when we where riding together in her gas brunning lynx and she was
not so happy with me. She took off her wedding ring and through it on the
dash and it ran for the defrost vent , gone down some black hole , and lost
forever , , ,,,, a year later the engine blew and as I had been bitten buy
the ev bug it became my second conversion , It proformed so much better that
the first that 1 soon became 3 when I found a ford ranger body, . The only
way for 4 to come around was to sell 2 , Which I did , along with the
wedding ring that was lost in the duck work ,.
to be continued.( with spell checker)
Steve Clunn , Wishing all you EV'ers and soon to be EV;er a marry Christmass
,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone, and Merry Christmas!
I got back from a short drive, and let the batteries sit for a couple
hours. The car was still pretty responsive when I pulled in - i.e. it
didn't feel like the batteries were extremely low (I'm *trying* not to
commit newbie battricide). I could tell a difference, but I felt like I
could have still driven a bit. But my measurements after letting them
sit are worrying me. They are all in about the 11.8V range. According
to what Lee recently said, that would be below 0% SOC for any of the
batteries he mentioned. *But*, he did say that temperature could change
things. The temperature is about in the teens outside. Does that
explain it? Does anyone have any rough numbers for how SOC changes with
temperature? I'd like to build that into my SOC measuring
device...along with current measurement and raw, instantaneous voltage.
Not sure how to do it after that - a table lookup seems to be the most
reasonable, other than it will be a big table!
Hopefully someone can give me some reassurance that temperature changes
the low limit for SOC. I'd hate to know that I'm killing my batteries
so early in the game.
One other thing - I'll be stopping by the Exide warehouse on Monday to
have them check the battery that is smelling. I have two other
batteries that I'm a little concerned about. They seem to play well
with all the other batteries, not throwing the red regulator light much
sooner than any of the other guys, but I'm still a bit worried. Should
I take those with me too and have them checked? Do they have some
exotic testing method at these battery warehouses?
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found my battery capacity went down about 1%/degree F.
You can measure the impedance of a battery by the formula (change in
voltage)/(change in amperage). This can be measured every time you punch the
throttle or lift off the throttle on the vehicle. As the battery discharges,
the impedance goes up. As the battery ages, the impedance goes up. As the
battery temperature goes down, the impedance goes up.
What I found with my battery pack was that the impedance increased about 10%
from full charge to three quarter charged. It increased another 10% (total
of 20%) from three quarter to half charged. It increased another 30% (total
of 50%) from half to quarter charged. From quarter charged to 90% discharges
it gained another 50% (total of 100%) impedance. The bottom 10% of the state
of charge was almost useless because the impedance prevented me from
extracting enough power from the pack to push the car up my steep sloping
driveway.
If you calculate the impedance of the pack from some logged data, you can
figure out just how much energy is available at each temperature. The
impedance can tell you where you are on your curve.
The battery dealers usually have a cranking tester to measure the impedance
of the battery. Sometimes it is a carbon pile tester that they crank down to
see how many amps they can pull before the battery drops under 9 volts.
Sometimes it is just a high amp fixed resistor that simulates cranking an
engine where the pass/fail criteria is the voltage at the end of a 10 or 20
second draw. Others may use a low current battery impedance tester that uses
a low current AC signal to stimulate the battery where the tester measures
the AC voltage across the battery to determine the impedance.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
> Hello everyone, and Merry Christmas!
>
> I got back from a short drive, and let the batteries sit for a couple
> hours. The car was still pretty responsive when I pulled in - i.e. it
> didn't feel like the batteries were extremely low (I'm *trying* not to
> commit newbie battricide). I could tell a difference, but I felt like I
> could have still driven a bit. But my measurements after letting them
> sit are worrying me. They are all in about the 11.8V range. According
> to what Lee recently said, that would be below 0% SOC for any of the
> batteries he mentioned. *But*, he did say that temperature could change
> things. The temperature is about in the teens outside. Does that
> explain it? Does anyone have any rough numbers for how SOC changes with
> temperature? I'd like to build that into my SOC measuring
> device...along with current measurement and raw, instantaneous voltage.
> Not sure how to do it after that - a table lookup seems to be the most
> reasonable, other than it will be a big table!
>
> Hopefully someone can give me some reassurance that temperature changes
> the low limit for SOC. I'd hate to know that I'm killing my batteries
> so early in the game.
>
> One other thing - I'll be stopping by the Exide warehouse on Monday to
> have them check the battery that is smelling. I have two other
> batteries that I'm a little concerned about. They seem to play well
> with all the other batteries, not throwing the red regulator light much
> sooner than any of the other guys, but I'm still a bit worried. Should
> I take those with me too and have them checked? Do they have some
> exotic testing method at these battery warehouses?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have a little disagreement on the definition of high rate charging.
Be careful about using the term "high rate charging" around Rich. He tends
to think about a ten minute pit stop (similar to Dennis, John and Rod) to
get back into the staging lanes.
Just for the sake of discussion, the documentation I have been reading
(about NiMh batteries) say a high rate charge is less than one hour and a
trickle charge takes over 10 hours. I don't know what to call a rate between
one hour and ten hours. Any suggestions?
To keep this discussion specific, we should refer to the charge rate as
something like 2C, C, C/3, C/5 or C/10 so we don't get confused.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: splitting hairs, Rog V Rich.
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > The point is some folks think you HAVE to charge Hawkers
> > at high rates...aka 1C+. My rebuttal is you don't have to.
>
> Complete agreement here. Hawker recommends a minimum of C/3, so I have
> no problem agreeing that 1C+ is not a requirement. I will go one
> further and agree that you can charge a Hawker at any rate you like; the
> only claim is that if the C/3 minimum is observed (along with the rest
> of Hawker's IUI profile), then Hawker claims you will get better cycle
> life than otherwise. This is essentially the same claim that USBMC
> makes for their product: you can charge at any rate you like, but you
> will get better cycle life by observing their minimum inrush
> recommendations.
>
> > You want to get some specifics on that??? What does US B
> > consider a minimum charge rate? and why? And is it something
> > we should worry about when we are charging at between 5 and 75 amps.?
>
> Specifics are that the initial charge rate must be at least C/10 for at
> least the first 3-5 minutes of the charge. That is, 22.5A *minimum* for
> a 225Ah C/20 rated battery. So, no, we are not talking about mA
> thresholds here; this is definitely relevant to EVers charging from 15A
> 120V outlets or better.
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--- Begin Message ---
Rod, the bidder on that perp motion deal is probably just trying to keep up
with the others in his field. Check out what came up on Google....David Chapman.
http://www.karnesdynorev.com/Index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Had I known it would go sp looooowww.......................
Mike G.
Tim Humphrey wrote:
It was won by an individual in La Canada, California. For $21.09.
Don't that make ya sick!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check the voltage drop across the negative battery cable. With a
resistance you can measure like you mention the voltage drop will change
under load.
Mike G.
Dean Thompson wrote:
Hi Ryan,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
I'll leave out a bunch of details and get to what I believe is
the
root of the problem. When I measure from the 12V battery
ground to
anywhere on the chassis with the vehicle completely off, I get
about
.8 ohms. Sounds about right. But as soon as I turn the
ignition to
the "On" position, I get 6-7 ohms. I believe this is related
to the
potbox problem because if I watch the DAQ (data acquisition)
with the
ignition off, I get normal off readings, but as soon as I turn
on the
ignition, the potbox reading jumps up (even though I haven't
pressed
on the pedal).
Weird 12V auto electric problems are often caused by grounding
problems. You probably have already looked, but just in case...
Have you checked the negative ground cable on your 12V battery?
Make sure that it is tight at both ends. Check that the chassis
is free from paint and corrosion where the ground is bolted, it
needs to make good contact. Are you using the original grounding
point from when the car was an ICE?
Hope that helps
Dean
--- End Message ---
