EV Digest 3978
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Jury-rigged Charging
by W Bryan Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) This does not sound quite right...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Jury-rigged Charging
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Jury-rigged Charging
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVDL Razzie Awards?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Trying to avoid battricide...SOC stuff
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Jury-rigged Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: This does not sound quite right...
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: This does not sound quite right...
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Anyone tried 16 volt batteries?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Fusing - pros and cons of positions and mounting
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Long Range Van on E-bay?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: T-Zero pic anyone?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) www.austinev.org down?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: This does not sound quite right...
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: www.austinev.org down?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: www.austinev.org down?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Dec 2004 at 21:29, Lee Hart wrote:
> So if you can, wait more like 8-24
> hours after driving and measure the voltage again.
That will certainly improve the data quality - but with all due respect to Lee,
I
don't think it's such a good idea. While the data may be useful, those
batteries should be charged ^immediately^. Allowing them to sit for 24 hours
before charging will risk damage from sulfation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I won't claim that you'll get blazing acceleration from golf car batteries,
though
there are ways to get ample pep.
What I ^will^ say is this: Without wanting to sound preachy, I think that many
drivers are spoiled by the large amount of energy that a gas car can carry on
board, and by the extravagant way it can thus be used. I realize that not
everyone will agree with me, but I seldom feel any real need to accelerate from
zero to 60 in 8 seconds, or even 12 seconds.
I'm aware that there are parts of the country where traffic conditions may make
faster acceleration desirable. However, I'm skeptical of the argument often
advanced that a car that takes 18 or 20 seconds - maybe more - to get to 60
mph is dangerous. IMO, having a slower car just means that you have to wait
longer for a break in traffic. How much patience have you?
Maybe this will help. You might think of an EV with golf car batteries as a
1960s-
era VW in terms of driving character. When I was growing up, many thousands
of people - including my father - bought, drove, and enjoyed those cars, even
though they shared the road with big Detroit iron powered by Cleveland 402s,
426
hemis, and the like. There was something about driving a VW bug that appealed
to them more than driving a Mustang Shelby GT, Chevelle SS-396, or Charger
440 - or for that matter an Impala, Galaxie, or Fury.
It's the same with an EV today. It's all a matter of what's important to you.
What gives you pleasure, the adrenaline rush of breaking through traffic, or
flowing smoothly with it while watching the E-meter? Do you think it helps the
EV
cause to show the other guy that your EV can beat his gas car to the next red
light, or would you rather drive your EV relatively anonymously? What's your
personal balance between the physical and the mental? The balance between
transportation zoom and economy exists along a continuum, and each person
has a different place where he or she is comfortable.
Also important is what your wallet supports: all other things being equal (read
that again), more speed is more money. In the end, it's a matter of what you
can
afford - and just as importantly, what you want to spend your money on.
To try to answer SBaker's questions, golf car batteries in almost any quantity
and any application will cost less per mile than AGMs - I would estimate
between one-half and one-seventh of the cost per mile. But they will have an
appreciably tougher time producing neck-snapping acceleration. Which do you
want more?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was me. I looked up the NSN# and got that description. Someone
should double check, but that's what I got.
Anyone have a friend who works at the airport amd could maybe get the
30Ahr cells FREE?
Seth
On Dec 25, 2004, at 3:00 AM, David Chapman wrote:
Anyone know what AHr these are? I thought I saw someone mention 14
which is
kinda small. David C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:08:30 -0800
Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
If anyone knows who bought these, can you find out if they plan on
reselling any?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS I'm close enough to go pick some up!
Yeah! Me too! Count me in on that. Hava trusty rusty Ford Van to
collect
them in!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before I do something that might be incredibly stupid, I wanted to hear from
a few minds more experienced than mine.
It recently dipped into sub-zero temperatures here, and for one
reason or another, my charger's built-in GFI trips everytime I
try to plug in it. I was hoping that something was just wet, or
frozen, so I've just left well enough alone for two days hoping
that the garage would warm up when the sun came out.
Well, today, no luck, and I'm starting to get worried. I'm going to have
to risk it and tear things down to get a better look. I know
the batteries are pretty drained and if I find that I'm going
to have to wait for a replacement charger, I'd like to
top them up.
So, I was hoping to use a normal car battery charger on two-6vs-in-series
and just go around the whole pack this way. I believe the batteries
are reguar-old lead-acid US-125s.
Any yays or nays?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Over the last couple of weeks we have experienced some much colder than normal
teperatures here in Charlotte, NC. Normally, we rarely see 20 degrees, colder
than that is very rare, but we have had quite a few sub 20 degree days in the
last month.
On the radio the other day one of the announcers in his "public service" spiel,
said that it was better for your battery in very cold weather if you turn the
switch on and wait for about 30 seconds before you crank the car.
Now I can see how this might be better for your electronics (lights, computer,
etc) to "warm up" a bit before you crank but how can 30 seconds of "switch on"
do your battery any good?
Is this a valid piece of data or just an old wives tale?
How does this help your battery if it does?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Dec 2004 at 12:18, W Bryan Andrews wrote:
> So, I was hoping to use a normal car battery charger on two-6vs-in-series
> and just go around the whole pack this way. I believe the batteries are
> reguar-old lead-acid US-125s.
Beats leaving them discharged.
Better would be to get a few more chargers. Then remove the interconnects
and reconnect them in as many series-parallel 12 volt sets as you have
chargers. That would get them all charging ASAP.
I keep a bunch of inexpensive Canadian-made (Cliplight) "automatic" 12-volt
chargers around for just this purpose. I also have a couple of the Fair Radio
chargers, which have come in handy several times.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A safer way to do this is to disconnect the cells you are charging from
the pack when you are doing this. If you were to accidently short your
pack thru a common battery charger cable, serious personal injury could
result when the copper wire melts or if thin enough, vaporizes, plating
copper on your hands, face, etc. With a relatively thick charger wire
it might not happen, but the one thing more costly than my time, is
that charged by the hospital...
I can't say how your pack is connected, but I have done this sort of
thing before. Obviously, don't try to charge with the other charger at
the same time. It is also a great way to imbalance a pack unless you
top all of the modules all the way to full.
I am an advocate of gloves and a face shield when working on battery
packs at all times.
Seth (the fearmonger)
On Dec 26, 2004, at 12:18 PM, W Bryan Andrews wrote:
Before I do something that might be incredibly stupid, I wanted to
hear from
a few minds more experienced than mine.
It recently dipped into sub-zero temperatures here, and for one
reason or another, my charger's built-in GFI trips everytime I
try to plug in it. I was hoping that something was just wet, or
frozen, so I've just left well enough alone for two days hoping
that the garage would warm up when the sun came out.
Well, today, no luck, and I'm starting to get worried. I'm going to
have
to risk it and tear things down to get a better look. I know
the batteries are pretty drained and if I find that I'm going
to have to wait for a replacement charger, I'd like to
top them up.
So, I was hoping to use a normal car battery charger on
two-6vs-in-series
and just go around the whole pack this way. I believe the batteries
are reguar-old lead-acid US-125s.
Any yays or nays?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since the end of the year is nigh, it might be nice to share some EV-related
rants. I'll suggest the following as two things which have bugged me lately.
PZEV - Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle
I know this is an old one, but I'm seeing it everywhere because of this new "Hybrids in the carpool
lane" legislation. Can someone please tell me the story of how somebody got the idea it was OK to put
the word "partial" in front of the word "zero"? And then it somehow passed review?
To play devil's advocate (at least on this list)
Hybrids can run in electric mode (Prius under 25MPH right?)
They do charge from the engine though. So I guess while you're going <25
you can say you have an electric vehicle charged by an intermittent
generator that happens to be hooked to the transmission.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> to clarify credentials, I too, have 'many years of EV use under my
> belt'...
That's for sure! I'm an engineer -- I know a lot about the theory, and
how to design EVs. I've been at it for 25+ years, and built 4 road-going
EVs. Engineering is a valuable skill when you are exploring things that
haven't been done before. As Steinmetz said, "An engineer can tell you
if it will work BEFORE you build it. *Any* damned fool can tell you
AFTER it's built!"
In contrast, John is a technician -- an Edisonian engineer. Edison
didn't believe in wasting time on theory; he just tried it! This method
takes a lot more time, and burns up a lot more parts (thus John's motto;
"We blow things up so you don't have to!). But, it works better for
exploring ideas that are too far away from existing theory.
Like drag racing. Ask a battery manufacturer how his batteries perform
at the 20-hour or 1-hour rate, and he has lots of data. But ask him
about the 10-minute or 10-second rate, and he is lost. It's off the
charts. You have to experiment, and test it for yourself. That's the
sort of work John is good at.
One of the things that's great about John is that he is willing to
*share* his knowledge. Usually, people who use trial-and-error
engineering get very secretive. But John has shared his knowledge
and experience in building EVs. As a result, he is responsible for
people building a lot more high-performance EVs. This goes a long way
towards promoting the cause.
The thing is, you need *both* engineering and technical skills to build
a successful EV. An engineer like me is inclined to build conservative,
reliable EVs that work consistently, but aren't very impressive. An
engineer like John is inclined to build exciting, daring EVs that push
the state of the art but are less reliable or practical.
Having both philosophies means people interested in EVs have a choice.
You have working example of both approaches. There is no "right" or
"wrong" way to go, because both lead to workable results!
> It's not acceptable for many, that an EV equipped with 1200-1500
> lbs. of golf car batteries, takes 20 seconds to hit 60 mph, or
> slows to 35 mph on moderate hills, or takes twice as much distance
> to stop safely from highway speeds. In order for golf car batteries
> to make good on Lee's promise (high range, high life), this is what
> has to take place.
No, this is not true. This is what engineering is good for!
Say you have 1200 lbs of golf cart batteries. At 65 lbs each, that's
about 18 65 lbs batteries; a 108v pack. Your peak power is about 108v x
500a = 54kw, or 54 HP. You can draw this for 5-10 seconds without harm.
Now put this pack in a lightweight EV that weighs (say) 1200 lbs, and
you have 50% battery weight. You'll have great range; 50-100 miles on a
charge.
If the car has a motor/controller/transmission combination that lets you
stay reasonably close to peak power as you accellerate, such an EV is
going to do a lot better than 0-60 mph in 20 seconds. Bob McKee's
Sundancer had this 50% golf cart battery setup, and did 0-60 mph in 12
sec. My old ComutaVan, which was only 30% golf cart batteries (12 in a
2400 lbs vehicle was more like 20 sec.
I think there is hope to improve the 0-60 mph times with some kind of
booster pack to provide higher amounts of power for 10-15 sec. It might
be supercapacitors, or a second pack of AGMs or some other technology.
Braking is of course unrelated to batteries. If you add tremendous
weight and don't upgrade the brakes, of course they will be poor. But
you can have great brakes in any vehicle; you just have design for it.
Handling is the same. The proverbial "lead sled" is a car jammed way
past its GVWR with badly-placed batteries. Its handling suffers,
sometimes to the point of being downright dangerous. This can be fixed;
it's just more work.
> Today's newest EVers want their conversions to accelerate, steer,
> brake, and pull hills just like a regular gas car can. Trying to
> do this using traditional golf car batteries is all but impossible.
But, they also want the same range and economy as a gas car. This is all
but impossible with AGMs or other expensive batteries.
This is the great dilemma. You can't have it all. You have to decide
what is important to you; and pick your batteries accordingly.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> On 25 Dec 2004 at 21:29, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > So if you can, wait more like 8-24
> > hours after driving and measure the voltage again.
>
> That will certainly improve the data quality - but with all due
> respect to Lee, I don't think it's such a good idea. While the
> data may be useful, those batteries should be charged ^immediately^.
> Allowing them to sit for 24 hours before charging will risk damage
> from sulfation.
No, not in just 24 hours. First, they probably aren't as dead as his
11.9v implies (they'll rise to more like 12.2v or something, which isn't
quite so dead). And they are cold, which slows sulfation. Finally, 24
hours is not long enough to worry about for a 1-time test.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Ryan Bohm wrote:
> > I'd like to build that into my SOC measuring device... along with
> > current measurement and raw, instantaneous voltage.
>
> I think one of the better ways to do it is the "dual meter" approach.
> Get an analog meter with two pointers that cross (the type used in SWR
> meters for radio use). Wire one to measure battery current, and the
> other for battery voltage. The place where the two pointers cross
> defines the present battery operating point. At any given current, the
> voltage changes from some value at 'full' to another value at 'empty'.
> This defines a line across the dual meter's face.
>
> The simplest way to label such a meter is with colored red-yellow-green
> bands that show the combinations of values for full-empty and good-bad
> battery. You can thus tell at a glance that this voltage represents 50%
> SOC at the present current.
>
Hi Everyone,
Here's a link to just such a project. Great stuff and lots of great tech
info as well. Mark has some other interesting stuff on his Web page related
to his EV S-10 and Ham radio activities.
http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
Good luck and 73,
Rick KD7SUU
...and Happy Holidays to All BTW!!!!!!!!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
W Bryan Andrews wrote:
> I was hoping to use a normal car battery charger on two-6vs-in-series
> and just go around the whole pack this way. I believe the batteries
> are reguar-old lead-acid US-125s.
>
> Any yays or nays?
Yes, that will work. The output of almost all 12v chargers is
transformer-isolated, and neither the + or - outputs are grounded. So,
you can safely use it to charge the individual batteries in your pack.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What really puzzled me was that (unless I misread it) the auction
description stated 2 per carton, 375 cartons, 6 pallets. Didn't seem to make
sense that only 750 14ahr cells would require 6 pallets. Maybe it was a
weight limitation issue. Just got to wondering if I might have missed a deal
on bigger Nicads. Oh well, water over the dam now. David C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
That was me. I looked up the NSN# and got that description. Someone should
double check, but that's what I got.
Anyone have a friend who works at the airport amd could maybe get the
30Ahr cells FREE?
Seth
On Dec 25, 2004, at 3:00 AM, David Chapman wrote:
Anyone know what AHr these are? I thought I saw someone mention 14 which
is
kinda small. David C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:08:30 -0800
Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
If anyone knows who bought these, can you find out if they plan on
reselling any?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS I'm close enough to go pick some up!
Yeah! Me too! Count me in on that. Hava trusty rusty Ford Van to
collect
them in!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James,
I believe it does help IF your battery is in good
shape.
I could actually tell that the voltage on my EVs sags
a lot at the beginning of my drive in the morning.
But, within a few blocks, the packs seem to "wake up"
and the voltage climb back up. I believe this is due
to inactivity of the electrolyte after a long night.
Some current draw helps to "stir" things up.
Of course, if your car battery is about to die, this
would make things worse since you need every last bit
of the energy to start the ICE.
Ed Ang
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Over the last couple of weeks we have experienced
> some much colder than normal
> teperatures here in Charlotte, NC. Normally, we
> rarely see 20 degrees, colder
> than that is very rare, but we have had quite a few
> sub 20 degree days in the
> last month.
>
> On the radio the other day one of the announcers in
> his "public service" spiel,
> said that it was better for your battery in very
> cold weather if you turn the
> switch on and wait for about 30 seconds before you
> crank the car.
>
> Now I can see how this might be better for your
> electronics (lights, computer,
> etc) to "warm up" a bit before you crank but how can
> 30 seconds of "switch on"
> do your battery any good?
>
> Is this a valid piece of data or just an old wives
> tale?
>
> How does this help your battery if it does?
>
> James
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone told me that he battery warms up slightly by doing this.
I see what you described sometimes during some battery tests. The voltage
sags more than usual at the beginning of a discharge and then rebounds. I
always thought that was odd. I believed it could be either a stirring or a
heat issue.
If it were the heat issue, hitting the starter would heat it up faster. I
don't see that during high current tests, but then again, I haven't looked
for it either.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: This does not sound quite right...
> James,
>
> I believe it does help IF your battery is in good
> shape.
>
> I could actually tell that the voltage on my EVs sags
> a lot at the beginning of my drive in the morning.
> But, within a few blocks, the packs seem to "wake up"
> and the voltage climb back up. I believe this is due
> to inactivity of the electrolyte after a long night.
> Some current draw helps to "stir" things up.
>
> Of course, if your car battery is about to die, this
> would make things worse since you need every last bit
> of the energy to start the ICE.
>
> Ed Ang
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Over the last couple of weeks we have experienced
> > some much colder than normal
> > teperatures here in Charlotte, NC. Normally, we
> > rarely see 20 degrees, colder
> > than that is very rare, but we have had quite a few
> > sub 20 degree days in the
> > last month.
> >
> > On the radio the other day one of the announcers in
> > his "public service" spiel,
> > said that it was better for your battery in very
> > cold weather if you turn the
> > switch on and wait for about 30 seconds before you
> > crank the car.
> >
> > Now I can see how this might be better for your
> > electronics (lights, computer,
> > etc) to "warm up" a bit before you crank but how can
> > 30 seconds of "switch on"
> > do your battery any good?
> >
> > Is this a valid piece of data or just an old wives
> > tale?
> >
> > How does this help your battery if it does?
> >
> > James
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My question is this - let's say that my vehicle isn't an issue in terms of
how much lead I can pack into it. Let's say it's strong enough and big enough
and safe enough for me to put a big hunk o' lead in it. Let's consider
something like a big-ass van that I've possibly modified
structurally (if necessary)
to carry thousands of pounds of lead. Or perhaps a big-ass hearse or some big
old station wagon that I've gutted or something. Or perhaps a pickup truck
would even do. 1) Could I stick enough lead (gold cart bats) into this thing
to get what Wayland might call good performance (let's say equivalent
performace to an ICE) and beyond that size the pack large enough to
keep the power
draws low enough to baby the pack?
The short answer is NO. Few cars and light trucks in the USA have to
push more than about 22lbs per HP (however there are exceptions - 1st
gen Prius, some cheap sub-compact cars.)
Some weight/ power numbers for comparison are only fair. My EV Buggy
with 10 Optimas, a 400 amp controller and a 1420lbs finished weight
has a weight/ power ratio of 29lbs per HP. The first generation US
model Prius has about 28lbs per HP. A new Chevy Aveo has about 23lbs
per HP. A 2.4 liter 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma Pickup has about 20lbs
per HP. A Dodge Neon has to push about 19lbs per HP. John Wayland's
Blue Meanie has to push <15lbs per HP.
Now lets look at the GC battery. It can dish out about 400 amps
without crying. If you get 400 amps at about 5.5 volts, that is about
2.95hp per 60lbs battery. The GC battery *itself*, when used
properly, doesn't offer 20lbs per HP.
A GC powered EV with close to 40% of its weight in batteries and 400
amps on tap has similar performance to a 1950's era VW Beetle
(specifically, the 1954 through 1960 "36hp" models.) I've driven a
number of GC EVs and a number of 36hp Beetles. This is a weight/
power ratio between about 60 and 65lbs per HP.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
> I won't claim that you'll get blazing acceleration from golf car
batteries, though
> there are ways to get ample pep.
Good. We differ on the definition of "ample pep".
> What I ^will^ say is this: Without wanting to sound preachy, I think that
many
> drivers are spoiled by the large amount of energy that a gas car can carry
on
> board, and by the extravagant way it can thus be used. I realize that not
> everyone will agree with me, but I seldom feel any real need to accelerate
from
> zero to 60 in 8 seconds, or even 12 seconds.
I rarely encounter the need either. There are people who encounter uphill,
metered on-ramps daily. Apparently neither of us do. What I encounter are
stop signs where I pull out into 50 MPH cross traffic. Downhill is not a
problem. Uphill gets pretty scary.
> I'm aware that there are parts of the country where traffic conditions may
make
> faster acceleration desirable. However, I'm skeptical of the argument
often
> advanced that a car that takes 18 or 20 seconds - maybe more - to get to
60
> mph is dangerous. IMO, having a slower car just means that you have to
wait
> longer for a break in traffic. How much patience have you?
When you have a metered on ramp or a stop sign to make a turn into 60 MPH
traffic with no acceleration lane, having enough power keeps the anxiety
down.
> Maybe this will help. You might think of an EV with golf car batteries as
a 1960s-
> era VW in terms of driving character. When I was growing up, many
thousands
> of people - including my father - bought, drove, and enjoyed those cars,
even
> though they shared the road with big Detroit iron powered by Cleveland
402s, 426
> hemis, and the like. There was something about driving a VW bug that
appealed
> to them more than driving a Mustang Shelby GT, Chevelle SS-396, or Charger
> 440 - or for that matter an Impala, Galaxie, or Fury.
In 1960, the metered on ramp had not been invented yet. The interstate
system was still being built. Most towns still had stoplights on the highway
through town. There was plenty of room to merge into traffic. Drivers were
polite (IIRC). I miss that era as well, Yes, I had a 1959 VW dune buggy with
a 1300 cc motor in it. I did not have trouble with the 65 MPH top speed that
took over a mile to reach.
> It's the same with an EV today. It's all a matter of what's important to
you.
> What gives you pleasure, the adrenaline rush of breaking through traffic,
or
> flowing smoothly with it while watching the E-meter? Do you think it helps
the EV
> cause to show the other guy that your EV can beat his gas car to the next
red
> light, or would you rather drive your EV relatively anonymously? What's
your
> personal balance between the physical and the mental? The balance
between
> transportation zoom and economy exists along a continuum, and each person
> has a different place where he or she is comfortable.
Where I presently live, I have 5% to 15% grades to climb at 45 MPH to 35
MPH to get up the hill. The other access routes must use one of these
throughfares. Leaving here requires pulling out from a stop sign into this
traffic. My EV did not have the power to pull the speed limit up the hills,
I needed more power.
> Also important is what your wallet supports: all other things being equal
(read
> that again), more speed is more money. In the end, it's a matter of what
you can
> afford - and just as importantly, what you want to spend your money on.
Saying "all other things being equal" is a bad assumption. They never are
equal.
I agree that "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" is valid. If
the faster parts cost less than the slower parts, the slower parts will
disappear from the marketplace.
> To try to answer SBaker's questions, golf car batteries in almost any quan
tity
> and any application will cost less per mile than AGMs - I would estimate
> between one-half and one-seventh of the cost per mile. But they will have
an
> appreciably tougher time producing neck-snapping acceleration. Which do
you
> want more?
SBaker had two questions on Saturday, December 25, 2004 3:01 AM. They were:
"1) Could I stick enough lead (gold cart bats) into this thing
to get what Wayland might call good performance (let's say equivalent
performace to an ICE) and beyond that size the pack large enough to keep the
power
draws low enough to baby the pack?
2) If this is possible,
would you at this point be paying more than you would for a pack of AGMs
sized to deliver similar performance, after factoring in life of the
batteries and
what not? "
I would say that #1 is not possible. There are not enough watts per pound in
flooded batteries (while staying within the long cycle life criteria) to
make me happy. When I try to pull the watts per pound out of them, they die
early.
This question has been around for a long time, and no one has adequately
answered it, but we keep trying.
Keep up the good work David.
We need to debate all the aspects of the issue.
Thanks for your post. It got me thinking, "How could we answer this question
adequately", to satisfy all the interested parties?
What if we built a conversion to have two battery packs in series. One
flooded and one AGM. Put two chargers on board to take care of each half of
the pack properly and drove the car in a typical manner? No, that would not
equally stress the batteries because the AGMs would carry the bulk of the
watt load due to their higher loaded voltage. You would need to make sure
the same watts were coming out of both packs. How could that be done? Dual
controllers with a control system to balance the throttle commands to draw
the same power from both packs?
It sounds like we might have to do a lab test. If we did a lab test, how
much current would we need to draw to do an adequate study? How many battery
packs would we need to wear out to answer the question? How long would the
battery pack last? Any ideas?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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So I think I win with a stock 2003 vehicle with ~35 lb per hp. Or do I
lose :)
2003 VW golf TDI, ~3100 lb with me in it, 90 hp. (EV content follows)
Power curve probably closest to the series wound than any gasoline car,
due to the turbodiesel. Quick? No. But a lot of area under the curve,
so it will walk away from many faster econoboxes because they aren't
running at a high RPM horsepower peak when I pass them leaving the
tollboth. If you look at the power curve and torque curve, it delivers
a bit too much power out far, but the general shape is not so different
from a *approximately* constant power motor, like AC induction field
weakend, or some parts of the series wound operating range.
So peak HP/lb might not be the best metric, especially when comparing
ICE to electric motor power. Area under the curve is a bit harder to
do, though.
Seth
On Dec 26, 2004, at 4:03 PM, Paul G wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My question is this - let's say that my vehicle isn't an issue in
terms of
how much lead I can pack into it. Let's say it's strong enough and
big enough
and safe enough for me to put a big hunk o' lead in it. Let's
consider
something like a big-ass van that I've possibly modified structurally
(if necessary)
to carry thousands of pounds of lead. Or perhaps a big-ass hearse or
some big
old station wagon that I've gutted or something. Or perhaps a pickup
truck
would even do. 1) Could I stick enough lead (gold cart bats) into
this thing
to get what Wayland might call good performance (let's say equivalent
performace to an ICE) and beyond that size the pack large enough to
keep the power
draws low enough to baby the pack?
The short answer is NO. Few cars and light trucks in the USA have to
push more than about 22lbs per HP (however there are exceptions - 1st
gen Prius, some cheap sub-compact cars.)
Some weight/ power numbers for comparison are only fair. My EV Buggy
with 10 Optimas, a 400 amp controller and a 1420lbs finished weight
has a weight/ power ratio of 29lbs per HP. The first generation US
model Prius has about 28lbs per HP. A new Chevy Aveo has about 23lbs
per HP. A 2.4 liter 4 cylinder Toyota Tacoma Pickup has about 20lbs
per HP. A Dodge Neon has to push about 19lbs per HP. John Wayland's
Blue Meanie has to push <15lbs per HP.
Now lets look at the GC battery. It can dish out about 400 amps
without crying. If you get 400 amps at about 5.5 volts, that is about
2.95hp per 60lbs battery. The GC battery *itself*, when used properly,
doesn't offer 20lbs per HP.
A GC powered EV with close to 40% of its weight in batteries and 400
amps on tap has similar performance to a 1950's era VW Beetle
(specifically, the 1954 through 1960 "36hp" models.) I've driven a
number of GC EVs and a number of 36hp Beetles. This is a weight/ power
ratio between about 60 and 65lbs per HP.
Neon
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Check that out:
http://www.turbostart.com/SPLGRP.jpg
http://www.turbostart.com/
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Hi all
Starting to put stuff into place, reached the traction-pack related fuses.
My system will consist of dual strings of Orbitals at 120V, with a safety
disconnect fuse in the middle of each string so I can have no more than 60V
when working on the system. After the strings join, I'll have traction
fuses, heater, vac pump, DC/DC input and charger (and anything else that
ends up). I have lots of fuses and holders already, so the cost is not a
limiting factor in this part.
The bakelite fuse holders are heavy, so I'd like to minimise the number I
use, but still maintain the safety margin. Should I fuse everything in both
B+ and B-?
What is the "best" way to install the fuses? I will have the center-pack
safety fuses in holders, so I can pull them before doing any work. Do I
bolt the rest of the fuses into place on brass thread and just pull the
disconnects before working on them?
Do I put the traction fuses into holders (using them for main working
disconnects), and connect all of the smaller fuses after the traction fuses?
Being a visual person, I'll try and illustrate using ascii art:
First option, using the center pack fuses only:
B+===||
||===[traction fuse]===[contactors etc>
||===[charger fuse]===[contactors etc>
||===[heater fuse]===[contactors etc>
||===[charger fuse]===[from charger etc>
Second option, using the traction fuses as secondary isolation:
B+===[traction fuse]=|==[contactors etc>
_______________|
|
|===[charger fuse]===[contactors etc>
|===[heater fuse]===[contactors etc>
|===[charger fuse]===[from charger etc>
Or would it be better to put the charger direct to the pack, so I can
charge with the traction fuses pulled?
And on the subject of the charger, I plan on putting a fuse on the
rectifier output, and another on the battery input, to protect the wiring
in between - or more specifically to protect against a fault in the wiring
in between. good idea or waste of time? (since the input breaker should
fault if there is a problem between the rectifier and the pack)
All comments appreciated, thanks in advance.
James Massey,
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
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Saw this on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4513129605&fromMakeTrack=true
The owner says with new batteries the range is 50 miles easily and 100
"according to the literature".
Don't know if I buy the 100 mile rating, but based on it's size and the fact
that it packs 17 6v batts, I'd be willing to belive 60-70 if you keep it in the
45mph range.
It's too short range for me in future, but absolutely perfect for me now. I
could also consider replacing the batteries with ni-cads in futre and a better
charger and I think I'd have my van.
Anyone know anything good/bad about this?
Anyone on the list bidding on this? I have talked to my wife and she is willing
to let me buy it but I don't want to get into a bidding war with aother lister.
James
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I posted this a month ago. Kragen, Checker and one other I think. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: T-Zero pic anyone?
I havn't noted anyone else posting on this so I figured I better. Anyone
that wants a nice picture of a T-Zero can drop by your local Checker auto
and get the 2005 calender titled "Carcepts". Its "Ms" April. I am kinda
facinated by the Boano Indy Lincoln and the Ghia Gilda as well. Worth a look
and one can always use a calender. David Chapman.
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I've been trying to access the EV-photo album to do a bit of research on these
ElectraVans and I can't seem to connect. Has it gone down?
James
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I don't know about warming up the battery with a key-on, I will leave that
to you Joe. But it dose help the engine to start faster especially in cold
weather if you do a key-on before you crank the engine.
The fuel pressure drops when the fuel cools off and even more if it has a
check valve leaking in the fuel system (pressure bleed off). If you do a
key-on for a short time before you crank the engine it will bring the fuel
system up to working pressure for a quicker engine light off and the fuel
pump won't have to compete with the starter for the limited battery power at
that temperature.
From: "Joe Smalley"
> Someone told me that he battery warms up slightly by doing this.
>
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
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Hi James and all,
I am not sure why, but while I was uploading some new additions the EV
Album and the whole austinev.org site went down. About 5 minutes later it
came back up, and is currently on-line. I never did lose FTP access so I
am not sure what happened.
Sorry about the interruption.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV List Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
At 06:55 PM 12/26/2004, you wrote:
I've been trying to access the EV-photo album to do a bit of research on these
ElectraVans and I can't seem to connect. Has it gone down?
James
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If it was offline, I guess it's back (?) ... I have no problems
reaching austinev.org.
--chris
On Sun, 2004-12-26 at 18:55, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've been trying to access the EV-photo album to do a bit of research on these
> ElectraVans and I can't seem to connect. Has it gone down?
>
> James
>
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