EV Digest 3980
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: snake oil on ebay/xmass story part2
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Vehicle weights and drag coefficient? - web link
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM warsOther Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hybrid options for a pickup
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Clutch musings
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Old timers and cold battery starts
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Jury-rigged Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hybrid options for a pickup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: [RAV4-EV] Think Again . . . . It's Alive!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: [RAV4-EV] Think Again . . . . It's Alive!
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Website
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) January NBEAA meeting (Prius+ PHEV) announcement
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1500W ceramic heater options at Target
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
When her son came by and I whispered what I
> had gotten her , the expression on his face , was pretty close to an EV
> grin. This fun little game was starting to get out of hand , she was
> starting to get Really upset about what she was going to give me.
>
> to be continued
> my wife gets the upper hand , or so she things
>
Some one who had bought some solar panels for the "2000 end of the word "
called me and wanted to sell them , cheep , I got them and gave one to my
friend and told him to come to my house when I wasn't there and sell it to
my wife for $20 , ya a 70watt panel for $20 dollars , it could happen:-) .
Now both my wife and daughter got to teas me about , what a fine gift and
how I'd never guess , and I never did, and was quite surprised on Christmas
day .
\
Steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading all of the posts about these 2 battery
technologies produced a question somebody on the list
might be able to answer.
Why do AGM's cost so much more than flooded batteries?
Is it economies of scale or is there something in the
manufacturing process that drives up the cost on AGMs?
How much harder is it to recycle an AGM compared to
a flooded battery?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This link worked for me
http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi Ryan, and welcome!
> If you go to
> www.budget.net/~bbath/civicwithacordjournal.html,
> you'll get the weight and tons of info on converting
> a
> 92 Civic. I was a bit compulsive about
> documentation
> for future converters. Also for $12, I have a DVD
> or
> video, showing adapter plate and component mounting
> locations.
> At least check my journal.
> peace,
>
> --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone have, or know where to get some hard
> > numbers on various
> > vehicles? Like how much do 1980's Chevy S-10's
> and
> > Ford Rangers weigh
> > compared to later 1990 model trucks? And also the
> > drag coefficient numbers
> > of the older ones compared to the newer ones. Or
> > how much do vehicles like
> > Dodge Neons, Chevy Cavaliers, and Ford Focus's
> > weigh? What might be the
> > "ultimate" car(or truck) for a conversion?
> >
> > The thing I like about the trucks is being able to
> > mount all the batteries
> > and the onboard charger in the bed, maybe even the
> > controller too. Worried
> > about the "high" center of gravity? Those trucks
> > can be lowered to any ride
> > height... Ever seen an electric powered low
> rider?
> > ;)
> >
> > With the cars, I think the batteries could easily
> > enough all be mounted in
> > the trunk and where the back seat was, etc.
> >
> > So I guess it basically comes down to weight and
> > aerodynamics. Except if
> > everything roughly weighs about 3,000 lbs and has
> > pretty much the same drag
> > coefficient... then it all becomes a moot point.
> >
> > Anyone got any numbers?
> >
> > All I've found so far is some various misc.
> numbers
> > on things you might
> > wonder about in regards to any weight savings:
> >
> > http://www.vorshlag.com/tech_weights.asp
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
> for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage
> less.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
Hi Dave an' All;
Had to add a few comments here. Although Dave pretty much said it all
here. IMHO.
> I won't claim that you'll get blazing acceleration from golf car
batteries, though
> there are ways to get ample pep.
> I have been living with a 120 volt Rabbit for about 5 years. It's a
classic Lead Sled, but it will keep up with most traffic flow. I hafta
comment that " Electric Car" inscribed in 3" letters on the trunklid can
freely be translated as " PASS ME" as speed limit signs are mearly
suggestions in CT or ANYWHERE in the USA, as well as "School Zones" I have
had yahoos tear past me there as I was only 5mph over myself! One of the
things that are dramaticly illustrated is the idiot drivers we have to live
with out there. Maybe DON'T put any EV markings on your EV. Then it;s OK to
tye up traffic in your ICE mobile, as people often do, for no apparent
reason. I EVen PASS those types, when I get a chance. Floor it and UPshift
for more power. The Rapter duz it's thing and I oooze by<g>!
> What I ^will^ say is this: Without wanting to sound preachy, I think that
many
> drivers are spoiled by the large amount of energy that a gas car can carry
on
> board, and by the extravagant way it can thus be used. I realize that not
> everyone will agree with me, but I seldom feel any real need to accelerate
from
> zero to 60 in 8 seconds, or even 12 seconds.
> Exactly! As I run my Prius, and DO go faster than the Rabbit, because it
WILL! People are spoiled rotten by the vast power avavlable in todaze cars.
Beautifully engineered, smooth, light, nimble cars we can buy today, as
compared with, say, a 62 Falcon , that I drove recently. God! We LIVED with
these beasts as a kid! And how cool a 59 VW Beatle seemed. Nimble , light
handling and it would GO in snow!The VW Beetle Bug bit me early on, pun
intended! Lived with them into the late 80's when I moved up to Diseasel
Rabbits. Oh JOY! Heat AND defrosters that actually worked!
I can almost feel J Wayland crindging" He thinks a Prius is FAST?? I see
motor mags make fun of hybrids performance, but I have found that they are
just fine for me. I don't know how fast it will go, top speed, don't really
care. Although I did open the Sentra up in AZ a few years ago. About 100
mph, but had slowed down to about 90 when the cop stopped me<g>!" He asked
me" Don't you think we have speed limits out here"" Me" Well? Resonable and
prudent isn't in effect here, anymore? Hell! People go 90 on the CT turnpike
here, nobody notices, and THAT's in 18 wheelers! Ya NEVER see an 18 wheeler
pulled over, though!
> I'm aware that there are parts of the country where traffic conditions may
make
> faster acceleration desirable. However, I'm skeptical of the argument
often
> advanced that a car that takes 18 or 20 seconds - maybe more - to get to
60
> mph is dangerous. IMO, having a slower car just means that you have to
wait
> longer for a break in traffic. How much patience have you?
> Great point. Driving an EV is definately a study in patience! I mean for
the rest of us! An EV 1 is delightfully nimble and quick! pull out, and feel
that glassy smooth pickup! You forget that it is electric, but not for long
as it sings along! Has a cool Star Wars sound of the gears? The good Folks
at GM musta left that sound in for your listening pleasure!! You folks lucky
enough to have flown an EV-1 are nodding in agreement. But EV-1 was quick,
and people drove it too fast, killed the battery faster than we would, us
professional EV drivers. I remember in Montriel EVS Whatever, show the GM
Guy sez" You really know how to drive an EV" I said that Well I HAVE one,
got tired of waiting for you guys to make one! I Want THIS one, I said,
Forest green brown interior, I'll give ya a check, lets drive it to a U Haul
place where I can rent a BIG truck to carry it back to CT. He just laffed,
you wont be able to BUY an EV-1 EVer! What was probably running through his
mind-We don't want you running around with only ONE moving part in your
"engine" and passing up our friends at Standard Oil, Midas Quicky Oil
Change, or our ripoff dealers for a 400 bux toonup!Not to mention the Tax
revenue from buying gas.
Another point here. My job requires me to drive 150 MPH, anyhow, at the
helm of a Acela Express train to Boston. My first several checkout,"
Flights" were of the white knuckle type, going a hellova lot faster than the
old Diseasel F-40's would go, they were lucky to get into the 100 mph club,
like old VW's they varied in top end, record =119 MPH with a Diseasel,
downhill, with a tailwind! Ah! But the electrics? They go 125 at the flick
of a throttle, UPHILL, no less! But ya get used to the electrics darn fast!
Singing along at two mile a minute speeds, they are fun! Driving home ya
hafta watch your speed as you are aclamated to the high speeds! Good thing I
can't afford a Farrari or Porsche!
JustMaybe this will help. You might think of an EV with golf car
batteries as a 1960s-
> era VW in terms of driving character. When I was growing up, many
thousands
> of people - including my father - bought, drove, and enjoyed those cars,
even
> though they shared the road with big Detroit iron powered by Cleveland
402s, 426
> hemis, and the like. There was something about driving a VW bug that
appealed
> to them more than driving a Mustang Shelby GT, Chevelle SS-396, or Charger
> 440 - or for that matter an Impala, Galaxie, or Fury.
> Amen! As well as filling it up on pocket change, not taking out a second
mortgage on your house!
> It's the same with an EV today. It's all a matter of what's important to
you.
> What gives you pleasure, the adrenaline rush of breaking through traffic,
or
> flowing smoothly with it while watching the E-meter? Do you think it helps
the EV
> cause to show the other guy that your EV can beat his gas car to the next
red
> light, or would you rather drive your EV relatively anonymously? What's
your
> personal balance between the physical and the mental? The balance
between
> transportation zoom and economy exists along a continuum, and each person
> has a different place where he or she is comfortable.
>
> Also important is what your wallet supports: all other things being equal
(read
> that again), more speed is more money. In the end, it's a matter of what
you can
> afford - and just as importantly, what you want to spend your money on.
> To comment on another thread of late. Spending BIG bux for a light
weight driveshaft, wheels and whatnot. Converting ANY car to an EV is an
excresize in futility, anyhow, we masochists want to prove a point. That
EV's DO work, dispite the heroic efforts of Big Biz to say that they DON'T
work. In that I can drive mine as needed to work. Nobody even really notices
mine at work anymore. "Oh that's Bob's electric over there, plugged in,of
course!" I leave the hood unlatched so the guys there can open and look, the
Ground Crew guys give the guided tour when I 'm gone.The satisfaction of
having put it all together, and you can get where ya hafta go, in a rig that
YOU built, well, adopted to your needs. That you can and DO rely on it to
get to work, EVery day. OK disclaimer, car is sitting in a semi warm garage,
with a couple of dead, weak cell batteries. Prius is doing snow duty, I HATE
to run the poor old Rabbit in snow , slop and slush, to try to preserve it a
bit longer. Winter eats cars alive, you folks that can look out the window
and can see SNOW this AM, ya know what I mean.
> To try to answer SBaker's questions, golf car batteries in almost any
quantity
> and any application will cost less per mile than AGMs - I would estimate
> between one-half and one-seventh of the cost per mile. But they will have
an
> appreciably tougher time producing neck-snapping acceleration. Which do
you
> want more?
> I come in somewhere inbetween. But I kill floodies in about two years or
20k miles, with my 400 amp turnpike launches down the Ramp@ Exit 61 W on
the CT turnpike, and cruising at 60-65@ 200 amps Or so.Maybe if I had an
acceleration pack of Nicads or AGM'S? Where the hell would I PUT any more
batteries in the damn car??
All our conversion cars are trade offs, anyhow, like trying to make a
submarine out of a 747 or a airplane out of a locomotive. We do it so we can
ride electric, just a bit, and try to show the world. If Bob Rice, a nobody,
yankee shade tree mechanic can do it. Why Can't General Murders, Fraud,
Crapsler, Iota ,Hy and Dry, all those outfits that have REAL engineers.Gees!
Think of the aero engineers building a carbody, say at Boeing or Airbus,
light, low drag thing, thinking out of the box, not needing air to cool
anything, building around the ICE drivetrain??But around the electric drive,
sorta like GM did with EV-1??
So building an EV is a sorta mind frame thing, anyhow, they arent for
everybody. But they try to fill in a desire to create something good, in a
American "can do" thing. Although the Chinese and Indians are actually DOING
this EV thing. I hope! That the Chinese will flood our shores with EV's and
Japan dives in, too. THEN Maybe GM will dust the EV 1 off come out in a more
useful 4 seater, with cupholders, no less<g>! Don't hold your breath,
though!
Why do we do EV's?? Philisophical sort of question. I guess. Life can be
so "iffy" the horrible loss of life in Indonesia with the tidal waves, swept
away, no warning .Chief Seattle sed it best" The Earth doesnt belong to Us
,We belong to the Earth" That's stuck on the back of my EV. Next to "Quiet
Car" Please be considerate of your fellow travellers" an Amtrak sticker, for
the very popular "Quiet Car" thing they are doing. No Cell Fones ,Boom Boxes
or loud shouting(talking) in THIS car! TRAIN car, I mean.Acela cars are so
quiet you hear EVERY @#$% Cell conversation in the train! Those that were
drowned out by the rumble of the wheels of a regular train, a blessing that
we really didn't appreciate before<g>!
In finishing, go see "Polar Express" the movie, put your mine in
"Kiddie," just enjoy! The visuals are way cool , AFTER you sit through 20
minutes of commercials BEFORE the movie. I WILL be writing to Loews Theaters
about that. Phooey I can "mute" the @#$% commercials at home..I paid 7 bux
to watch a MOVIE, not ads! Maybe if we ALL gripe!? But there is a magic of
the train in the snow! The STEAM train, I mean.on the
not-much-bigger-than -at-home screen. Cineplex 1 through -too- many,
screens. What happened to the BIG screen, the one that gave us goose bumps
seeing Titanic on ,years ago!?Gotta love the IMAX concept, though!
OK end of Rant. I hope you all had a great Christmas, lotts of Li Ions
and Zillas under the tree, motors and stuff<g>!
Seeya
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
I tried to send this out on the 26th but for some reason it didn't post. To
add to what I wrote below, I just read the post where someone suggested
using a 4x4 front axle and attaching a motor to it to run just the front
axle. What would be the minimum motor size and voltage to be able to get say
a 45 mph top speed and 20 mile range? I assume an E Tek is too small and
would be toast in short order. How would you control it? A thumb
switch/rheostat on the shifter? A motorcycle throttle to replace the knob at
the top of the shifter? How tough would it be to charge the pack from the
alternator while in ICE mode? Do DC to DC conveters go in the other
direction, 12 to 72 or 96? What happens to a DC motor when it freewheels?
Can anything be damaged?
Listers,
OK guys, now that I have an EV I'd like to make my pick up (98
Nissan Frontier) as fuel efficient as possible by possibly making it a
hybrid. I would like to be able to make it run under battery power, with
the engine at idle so I'll have steering and brakes, when accelerating from
a stop or backing up. This is when it runs the least efficient and is
probably where I can get be most improvement. I have few ideas.
One, put hub motor wheels on the front and batteries under the bed.
This would be the perfect option but as has recently been written on this
list, hub motor wheels aren't available just yet.
Two. Is it possible to machine a cover that would replace the cover
on the back of the rear differential that would have a motor, maybe a 6.7"
ADC, mounted on it? This motor would directly drive the differential with
the same type of gear that the drive shaft uses. When accelerating the motor
would drive the truck and after a certain speed, maybe 30 mph, the engine
would take over.
______
/ \_______
__________ / I I
__________I I I
\ I______ I
\______/
^ ^ ^
Driveshaft Differential Motor
A small 72v system might be a good option for this arrangement. Six
Exide Orbitals under the bed, a DCP 600 or Curtis, and a 72v charger. Or it
could be charged off of the engine with a high output alternator. Or both.
The motor would just be used for slow speeds and would freewheel when not in
use. The main drawback I see with this is I'm not sure I could sufficiently
protect the motor from the elements.
Three. Somehow mount the motor to the engine and set it up to drive
the engine with a belt, like an alternator or AC pump in reverse. The same
basic idea as above would apply, drive the engine at low speed and freewheel
when not used but since it drive the engine directly, I couldn't use this to
go in reverse.
Four. Don't know if this is possible with all the drivetrain
movement but how about mounting a motor between the framerails forward of
the rear diff and driving the driveshaft with a gear of some sort welded to
the shaft or teeth that are machined into the shaft itself. This whole setup
would have to be designed to accomodate the movement of the drivetrain and
the exposur to the elements.
If anyone has any better ideas please pass them along. And thanks
for any comments on the above ideas.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am about to purchase a used tilton triple plate clutch for my EV
conversioin, The idea is that the reduced Moment of inertia from stock
will make it easier to shift and also the reduced diameter will make it
easy to dissassemble(the clutch can come off with motor because it is
smaller diameter than the motor)
I will use the small button flywhell or make my own with an integrated
taperlock, I need to wait till I see the parts.
Issues:
The point is that tilton told me that a steal button flywheel is
lighter than the aluminum with the insert on the smaller diameter
clutches, only use alum on large diameter clutches
These clutches are not recommended for street use, the are too harsh
on taking off. In an ICE you must slip the tires to pull off the line. I
am thinking this is not a problem because you already start in gear on
an electric
These clutches can handle a lot of torque, and same torque off line
as @rpm (unlike some "center-force" design) the problem is that the
throwout bearing thrust is 3 to 5 times a stock clutch and we won't have
the benifit of a main crank bearing to work against. Does anyone know
how much end shaft thrust can safely be applied to a warp 9 ?. Otmar I
saw you used a multiplate clutch, is there extra bearings in that "dual
motor box"?
Anyone want to share their thoughts on this?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At least the old timers didn't have to deal with the electronics.
You can crank a carburated, and point ignition vehicle slowly with a
failing battery and get it started,
But if the voltage sags too much during cranking on newer cars, the
computer won't fire the spark or fuel injectors because it is not running.
You have to crank in short bursts letting the fuel injectors and
spark fire for a brief second when you let go of key.
I know this is OT, but I don't want anyone from this list walking home
in the cold when it can be avoided.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's another easy way to jury-rig a charger. Use a bridge rectifier
and a light bulb. Wire the light bulb in series with the AC input to the
bridge rectifier, and wire the DC output to your battery pack. Plug it
into a GFCI outlet, since this is a "hot" non-isolated charger.
No matter what the battery pack voltage (6v to 144v!) it will charge at
basically the same current -- whatever the light bulb allows. For
example a 100w light bulb draws 100w/120v = 0.8 amps. You get about 0.8
amps charging a 6v battery to 0.4 amps charging a 144v pack. It takes a
long time to charge, but charges as such a low rate that you can leave
it on indefinitely.
I did this when I moved from MI to MN in October, and couldn't tow my EV
out until spring. This trickle charger kept my EV charged without
depending on anyone to do it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I just read the post where someone suggested using a 4x4 front axle
> and attaching a motor to it to run just the front axle.
Yes; this is a viable strategy for building a simple hybrid.
Attaching an electric motor to the front differential might be hard;
it's pretty crowded up there in most cars. It might be easier to remove
the drive shaft to the rear axle, and use the electric motor to drive
it.
> What would be the minimum motor size and voltage to be able to get
> say a 45 mph top speed and 20 mile range?
Electric motors don't work like ICEs -- they don't have a peak HP
rating. The more electrical power you feed in, the more mechanical
horsepower you get out NO MATTER HOW LARGE! What basically limits an
electric motor's size is heat. It works sort of like this:
- a 10 lbs motor can make 100 horsepower for 1 second
- a 20-lbs motor can make 100 HP for 10 seconds
- a 50 lbs motor can do it for 1 minute
- a 100 lbs motor for 10 minutes
- a 200 lbs motor for an hour
- a 400 lbs motor can do it continuously
So, with electric motors, you have to decide how much power you need,
and for how long you need it. In most EVs, you don't have enough battery
power to run at high power for more than a few minutes; thus, the motor
can be considerably smaller than you'd think.
In some hybrids (called serial hybrids), the ICE drives a generator
which in turn drives an electric motor to drive the wheels. If you build
a hybrid like this, then the ICE can deliver high power for a long time,
so you need a much larger electric motor and generator to handle the
power continuously.
In other hybrids (called parallel hybrids), the electric motor only runs
for very short times, or runs at very low power levels. For example, it
might be used only for accellerating or passing, or creeping around at
low speeds. In this case, the electric motor and generator can be much
smaller.
> I assume an E-Tek is too small and would be toast in short order.
It mould work for a parallel hybrid, but not a series hybrid. Still,
it's a pretty lightly-built motor. There are better choices.
> How would you control it?
Control strategies are the bane of hybrid designs. There are ENDLESS
ideas for the best way to do it. Everything depends on what you are
trying to get it to do.
I suppose the simplest strategy would be to have two accellerators; one
for the ICE and one for electric. You could choose which one (or both)
you wanted to use. Once you have figured out when and how you use each
one, maybe then look for schemes to combine them so the car
automatically uses the "right" one.
> How tough would it be to charge the pack from the alternator while
> in ICE mode?
Not hard at all. Basically, you would have a battery pack of some size
(how big depends on how far and how fast you want it to go on pure
electric). Then put an alternator or generator on the ICE set up to
charge this pack.
> Do DC to DC conveters go in the other direction, 12v to 72v or 96v?
Yes; you can get DC/DC converters for any input and output voltage.
However, a given converter only works one way -- 12v to 72v, but not 72v
to 12. Thus, if you want power to go both ways, you need two DC/DCs.
> What happens to a DC motor when it freewheels? Can anything be
> damaged?
It acts as a generator. You can either ignore the power it generates, in
which case it just freewheels and consumes essentially no power. Or, you
can use the power it generates to charge the batteries (regenerative
braking) or just burn it up in resistors (dynamic braking).
> I'd like to make my pick up (98 Nissan Frontier) as fuel efficient
> as possible by possibly making it a hybrid. I would like to be able
> to make it run under battery power, with the engine at idle so I'll
> have steering and brakes, when accelerating from a stop or backing
> up.
That's a good simple plan. It won't give you the ultimate in gas
mileage, but is simple to implement.
> One, put hub motor wheels on the front
Hub motors are essentially "unobtainium". In other words, you can't get
them.
> and batteries under the bed.
That's fine. For a hybrid, you don't need all that big a battery pack,
since EV-only range can be quite short.
> Is it possible to machine a cover that would replace the cover
> on the back of the rear differential that would have a motor
Yes, it's possible. It adds a lot of weight to the rear axle though. It
may be better to cut the drive shaft, and use a motor with a shaft at
both ends. Couple the ends of the drive shaft to each end of the motor
with universal joints, so the motor mounts to the frame.
> A small 72v system might be a good option for this arrangement.
> Six Exide Orbitals under the bed, a DCP 600 or Curtis, and a 72v
> charger. Or it could be charged off of the engine with a high
> output alternator. Or both.
Right. Or, you could use a shunt motor (such as an aircraft surplus
starter-generator) and just let the driveshaft spin it as a generator to
recharge the batteries.
> The motor would just be used for slow speeds and would freewheel
> when not in use.
A classic series hybrid.
> The main drawback I see with this is I'm not sure I could sufficiently
> protect the motor from the elements.
Not really hard. Put it in a sheetmetal sleeve. Use an external blower
to blow air thru it.
> Somehow mount the motor to the engine and set it up to drive
> the engine with a belt, like an alternator or AC pump in reverse.
Possible, but harder. Many engine compartments don't have the room. You
would need a pretty stout belt or chain if it was to handle significant
power.
Another problem with this arrangement is that the electric motor and ICE
are locked together. You can't let the ICE idle and run the electric
motor at high speed or high power.
> Don't know if this is possible with all the drivetrain movement but
> how about mounting a motor between the framerails forward of the
> rear diff and driving the driveshaft with a gear of some sort welded
> to the shaft or teeth that are machined into the shaft itself.
I don't think it would work for gears, but you could probably have
pulleys on the drive shaft, and a pair of belts and motors (one left,
one right) so it equalizes the side thrust. It would probably take
multiple V-belts to handle the torque and the slight misalignment as the
drive shaft moves up/down with suspension movement.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Thanks for the report. Actually, this isn't news; it's crossed the list
previously, at least
a month or two ago. And it isn't good news, either, IMO: this awkward,
ungainly new
"Think Public," not meant for private owners, is nothing like the Think City.
Which
would you rather have, this:
http://www.thinkev.com/uk/images/city_overview_UK.jpg
or this:
http://tinyurl.com/4mjqq
Kamcorp management reportedly doesn't believe that the City has any potential
market, but they think they can sell this box on wheels. I hope for their sake
that I'm
wrong, but It's hard to imagine real success for this EV. I wish them well,
but I sure
won't be buying one any time soon.
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On 27 Dec 2004 at 6:35, Rod Hower wrote:
> Why do AGM's cost so much more than flooded batteries?
I'm not a battery expert, but my guess is that there are a few different things
going on. Some of these observations come from conversations with battery
dealers and manufacturers.
= Probably more raw materials per Wh of capacity go into the AGM battery.
= Production tolerances are most likely tighter, raising costs for labor and
increasing quality control rejections.
= There is a greater perceived value to users, who consider AGMs premium
batteries, so margins can be higher.
= Meanwhile, golf car batteries are by comparison a mass-production
commodity item, sold in multi-pallet quantities to golf courses and burden
carrier dealers; this heightens competition and limits margins.
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Sorry, disregard my previous post on this subject. I received a message that
I thought was from the EV list, but it wasn't. (You were probably scratching
your head at it anyway.)
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Just so you don't think you have the Ev list free for your own personal
version of the
Laws of physics .....
We are watching you Garry,
checking our list.... finding out who has been naughty or nice, or full of
hot air.....
Keep in mind, Your free lunch Garry, may be interrupted at anytime by a
Query to the list Gods for your removal......
So far it's been entertaining... and as long as you don't hoodwink some
newbie, on some free energy fling....
You won't be asked to move on....
But we know your thread.... and take exception to it...Since it has very
little to do with REAL motors.....
My lunch is not free.
And yours is far from it...
Madman.....
> Free your thinking then go looking for the "free lunch" its out there
> if you look.
>
> Garry
>
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Hey listers....
Our Site Manzanita Micro www.manzanitamicro.com
Is going back together right now... We are back...
This is good news...
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> I would consider going back to flooded batteries on a golf car since 1)
the
> number of cells is down reducing the number of terminals to clean, 2) the
> number of cells to water is down, 3) the access to the top of the
batteries
> is better under the battery box lid, 4) the speed (current demand) is
lower,
> 5) the calendar life expectancy is better and 6) the price is less per
watt
> hour.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Plus the fact is Joe just absconded with my Golf Cart.... at least it's out
of my drive way, and Joe and Kenny(Joe's 5 year old) are going to have a
Ball with it.
It has 6 of my worst Yts in it.... and it will soon have some Saft NiCads,
for some real range.
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Chris Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I started with a healthy pack; I dropped the first pack (9 year old
> Hawkers) and replaced them with 50 nice, matched, tested batteries.
> Fully charged, discharged, and tested for runtime within 1-2
> minutes of each other. It doesn't get much better than that.
Sorry, it wasn't clear to me that you were commenting only on one of
your packs rather than observing that *all* of them had failed.
> > Did you monitor the voltages of every module
> > *simultaneously*, and did you do so during the
> > constant voltage portion of the charge?
> Once again, yes. Voltages were measured within the time it
> takes to move a probe along the pack ladder
That is not *simultaneously*, and you previously wrote that you observed
the voltages during the *bulk* phase. If you log the module voltages of
a *healthy* pack, you will observe that they remain quite well clustered
until you swtich to constant voltage. During constant voltage, you will
observe that the module voltages not only vary more significantly, but
they also move around; i.e. a module that is high one moment may be the
lowest in the string a few moments later.
If your pack of 50 new Hawkers exhibited significantly differing
voltages while in the initial constant current bulk phase, then they may
not yet have been balanced (despite what your testing suggested), or
there may be an issue with the design of the pack wiring impacting the
division of the voltage and/or current through the modules. A healthy,
reasonably well-balanced pack will not exhibit significantly differing
module voltages before the end of bulk.
> > Hawker's IUI algorithm specifies phase timeouts that are dependant
> > upon the time spent in prior phases
>
> *sigh* While technically true that I did not measure the
> times exactly, for a 50ah pack the differences in time
> would have been small at best. I know all about the magical
> times, and for a small 50ah pack those time differences are
> minimal at best.
I'm not sure why you don't think the times are significant to the
success of the charge algorithm. The Hawker algorithm uses the time of
the preceding phase(s) to determine the amount of time spent in later
phases. Obviously, the time spent in the initial bulk phase doesn't
depend on any other phase duration, however, it is the later phases of
the algorithm that largely determine how completely charged and
equalised your pack is, and how much it vents.
What the Hawker timeouts do is 'scale' the durations of the later phases
depending on the depth of discharge so that the pack is not unduly
abused and overcharged when it is shallowly discharged, yet is fully
charged and perhaps more strongly equalised when deeply discharged. If
you do not implement the variable phase durations as specified by
Hawker, then you are left with a compromise situation that will either
undercharge a more deeply cycled pack or overcharge and vent a shallowly
cycled one.
Your experience suggests that you typically cycle your pack shallowly
and that your packs have died prematurely as a result of having been
vented...
> Please read what I wrote: I have had 3 packs in this car.
> Pack 1 was old Hakwers, pack 2 was new hawkers, pack 3 is
> what's in there now. All the discussions here are on pack
> 2, the nice matched batteries that I put in spring 2003
> and replaced summer 2004.
I am happy to read what you write, but must, unfortunately, wait for you
to write it ;^>
You had not written this prior to this message.
> *sigh* What I am saying is simple: On a 25 battery string charging to
> 375 volts at max current is a bad idea. This is phase I of Hawker's
> vaunted IUI protocol.
No; Hawker specifies constant current to 14.7V/module: 367.5V. 375V is
15V/module. 375V may indeed be a bad idea, but it is not something
Hawker recommends as part of their IUI algorithm.
The Hawker IUI algorithm is to run constant current to 14.7V/module,
hold 14.7V/module for 1.5x the time spent in the constant current phase,
then hold constant current at 0.05C (a maximum of 1.3A even for your
paralleled strings, since you cannot ensure that one string isn't going
to see the lion's share of the current) for 0.5x the time spent in the
initial constant current phase, capping the voltage at 15.6V maximum
(but continuing to charge at 15.6V until the proper duration is
complete).
Also, be cautious in referring to your 50-module pack as a 25-battery
string; your 2 parallel strings are not quite the same as a single
25-module string of larger batteries in terms of charging.
> Every week (acutally when the battery gauge goes to E because
> the MC doesn't take the pack high enough to reset it and it
> bypasses the Dolphin's internal ah counter) I put the car on
> the Dolphin charger and let it go at 2.5amp all the way to 390
> volts where it sits for 50 minutes at well < 1amp.
I would be concerned that this is too much current at too high a voltage
for too long, and will contribute to excessive venting and premature
failure of your pack.
If you were charging at Hawker's C/3 min rate, about 17.3A for your 52Ah
pack, then the bulk phase would take about 38min, and so Hawker's IUI
algorithm would recommend spending a *maximum* of 19 minutes in the
final constant current phase where the voltage is allowed to peak at
15.6V/module. 50min is too long, in my opinion. 2.5A is 0.05C for a
52Ah battery, however, since you cannot ensure that the current will
divide equally between your two parallel strings, this is an unsafe
level of current to allow the batteries to see at these elevated
voltages (i.e. > 14.7V/module); just my opinion, but I would not go
much, if any, higher than the 0.05C value for one of your 26Ah strings:
1.3A.
> The proof of the pudding will be in the crust: We'll see how well it
> works next year.
I wish you all the best with your pack and look forward to hearing how
it fares.
Cheers,
Roger.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
So, two questions from an EV dummy. 1) if you are getting "twice the torque"
then what are you giving up (power perhaps)? and 2) just what the hell is
the difference between power and torque anyway? If I am getting "twice the
torque" then how does that help me, and how is it different than
getting "twice
the power?"
1) The power is the same either way. You get twice the torque at 1/2
the RPM (roughly speaking, in an ideal series wound motor you would
get 4 times the torque at 1/4 the RPM but they are often being driven
into saturation.) That is why its common to launch in series and then
switch to parallel.
2) Torque is a twisting force. In a piston engine it is the pressure
on top of the piston on the power stroke. In a series motor torque
relates to amps. Power is the ability to do work. You can have more
power with less torque if you give up less torque than you gain in
RPM. Horsepower = torque * RPM / 5252. Horsepower = amps * volts *
efficiency / 746.
Neon
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January NBEAA Meeting Announcement
2pm, 8th January, 2005
CalCars' Plug-in hybrid 2004 Prius
Speaker: Ron Gremban, Moderator & Technical Lead,
PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group
Our first meeting of the new year will feature Ron Gremban,
Technical Lead for CalCars' (http://www.calcars.org) project to
create a plug-in
hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) from his 2004 Prius.
After recent intense debugging work, the Prius is now
functioning successfully as a plug-in hybrid and should
be available for show'n'tell.
Ron will detail the history of the project, including
the recent work with renowned EV-er Greg Hanssen at
Energy Control Systems in Monrovia, the part played by
various EAA member volunteers, and also the endorsement
and sponsorship announced on December 15th of the CalCars
project by our national organisation, the Electric Auto
Association (http://www.eaaev.org).
Avcon and 110V charging will be available and Harmony
Farm Supply is a 100% solar-powered business, so we hope
to provide some solar electrons - weather permitting!
Location: Harmony Farm Supply, 3244 Hwy 116 N.,
Sebastopol, Ca 95472
Time: 2pm, 8th January, 2005
Meeting site contact: David Henry
Tel: 707-823-9125 X14
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://nbeaa.org
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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----- Original Message -----
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
Snipped for brevity and comments inserted.
> If you build a dam it costs but after that the power it makes is free
because it is paid for by nature not the company running the dam but
they sure as hell dont want you to figure this out cause that would
mean they couldnt justify charging you for the power.
In this scenerio charging a user for power is perfectly justifiable as
whoever paid to build the dam and pays for the ongoing maintenence and
staffing to run it, costs to distribute the power etc is entitled to
amortize their investment, to recoup operational costs and even to gain a
profit for their efforts. Yes as time goes by each unit of power gets
cheaper but at no time is it ever truly "free".
It would lead to wide spread panic as people rushed to buy real estate
near streams and rivers so they could go get themselves a cheap water
wheel and generator and share in this "free lunch" too.
I really doubt it. Cheap is still not "free". Hydro power, geothermal,
solar, wind, wave etc power generating systems have been around for a long
time and none has caused much of a panic. Sometimes its a cost/benefit ratio
consideration. Other times it is simply that most people are just too
ignorant, lazy or they are too busy with other aspects of their lives to
invest time, money and energy to pursue alternate solutions and opt for the
quick fix, IE grid electricity.
Free your thinking then go looking for the "free lunch" its out there
if you look.
And mislead others and yourself by ignoring the facts. Face it, Robert H was
right. TANSTAAFL. But there is certainly nothing wrong with looking for ways
to minimize costs, maximize returns, and limit enviromental footprint. BTW,
did you used to be in politics? Hmm, if I steal an electric car and put a
borrowed generator on the wheel and then con gullible people to push the car
down the road for me, I wonder.... David Chapman.
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Ken,
I got 2 1550W cubes @ Walmart for $16.88 apiece. I took them apart,
cut the fans off the ceramic elements with my angle grinder, then wired
them both in parallel. For a bench test I set them up in my original
heater box with 120V AC to the cores and 12V DC to the fan motor. It
worked great. Those puppies really put out some heat! To make sure the
cores were self-limiting, I shut the fan off with the cores still
plugged in. Nothing melted or went up in smoke. I installed the heater
box in the car, but have yet to get it hooked up to the 120V DC power
(need to finish putting in the new batteries), which will be the
ultimate test.
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/23/04 7:11:04 PM >>>
At Target for $50
30" tall ceramic heater tower 1500W max with digital control
Also at target for only $21
Square style ceramic heaters at 1500W
1500W seems to be about the max on these ceramic heaters in the retail
channel
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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