EV Digest 3985
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: More EV ideas
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hybrid truck musings
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) acceleration (was The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!)
by "John Haskell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Paging Tim Nichols
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Queastion about 300zx
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Queastion about 300zx
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Low Rolling Resistance Tires?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Questions to those who have done a restoration + conversion
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Low Rolling Resistance Tires?
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Low Rolling Resistance Tires?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Questions to those who have done a restoration + conversion
by "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Someone (I think it was you) mentioned the possibility of using a
> controller as a DC/DC. What would be involved in powering the
> vehicle solely with an AGM pack and a Zilla, and using a pack of
> flooded batteries and a cheap controller (i.e. Curtis) to charge
> the AGM pack?
If I didn't mind having two controllers, that's how I'd do it. The
Curtis would not have to be a high-current model; it would never need to
run in current limit. The whole point, after all, is to be sure the
floodeds don't have to deliver high currents.
The Curtis "B+" output would connect to the AGM "+". You'd need an
inductor between the Curtis "M-" and the AGM pack "-". The Curtis
depends on about 100uH of inductance for its current limit to work.
The hardest part of the job would be designing some kind of charge
controller, that senses the AGM pack's state of charge, and sets the
Curtis pot box to produce an appropriate charging current and voltage.
I would think you could program a micro to do this. One challenge is tht
the floodeds and AGMs do not have a common negative.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Can we see some prices for say, Optimas, Orbitals, and how bout this new
>Deca Dominater, that folks have mentioned, on here.
Exide Orbital: $98
http://www.autosupplyusa.com/exor34exdeep.html
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/exide_select_orbital_XCD.html
I was wondering if I went to a local Exide warehouse and said I need 12 or
16 batteries, if there would be any sort of bulk discount?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/trans/na/exide_branches.html
Optima Yellow Top: ~$140 (free shipping?)
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/
Also, some local automotive parts stores sell Optima's and these 4 wheel
drive stores sell them:
http://www.4wheelparts.com/4wp/stores/
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/automotive/deep_cycle/technical_specs.html
Deka Intimidator: $102
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplaysubcat.asp?id=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATOR
Info:
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/whatsnew/052804.html
Deka Dominator: $135
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006V7L0A//102-2904835-9273769?v=glance
Deka Dominator: $150
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000637ONW/102-2904835-9273769?v=glance
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have experience with these Odysseys?
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=343&subcat=477
&cat=Odyssey%3Cbr%3EPower+Sports+%2F+Motorcycle
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=343&subcat=476
&cat=Odyssey%3Cbr%3ECommercial
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 1:57 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Range + Golf cart vs. AGM wars
>Can we see some prices for say, Optimas, Orbitals, and how bout this
new
>Deca Dominater, that folks have mentioned, on here.
Exide Orbital: $98
http://www.autosupplyusa.com/exor34exdeep.html
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/exide_select_orbital_XCD.h
tml
I was wondering if I went to a local Exide warehouse and said I need 12
or
16 batteries, if there would be any sort of bulk discount?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/trans/na/exide_branches.html
Optima Yellow Top: ~$140 (free shipping?)
http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/
Also, some local automotive parts stores sell Optima's and these 4 wheel
drive stores sell them:
http://www.4wheelparts.com/4wp/stores/
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/produc
t_info/automotive/deep_cycle/technical_specs.html
Deka Intimidator: $102
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplaysubcat.asp?id=342&cat=Deka+INT
IMIDATOR
Info:
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/whatsnew/052804.html
Deka Dominator: $135
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006V7L0A//102-2904835-92
73769?v=glance
Deka Dominator: $150
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000637ONW/102-2904835-927
3769?v=glance
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, I think you've got some figures wrong. A 2400 lb. vehicle with just
54 hp, in no way,
will it hit 0-60 in 12 seconds! Even factoring in a good controller and
the awesome torque
of an electric motor, it's just not going to happen. The Datsun 1200 sedan
only weighed 1587
lbs. and with 15 more horses under the hood, 69 hp, it ran 0-60 in 14.5
seconds.
To rephrase John.
Q. How could a car weighing 1000 'more' pounds, with 15 'less' hp, get to 60
mph nearly 3 seconds quicker?
A. Physics.
If you apply a force to an object that is free to move, it accelerates.
Torque is a turning force. Where rubber meets the road (the ONLY place that
matters for acceleration) it becomes a linear force and the vehicle
accelerates. Acceleration is totaly dependant on the torque at the wheels.
Mechanical power = (torque * rpm)/5250 so assuming constant torque; power at
the wheels is zero at standstill and rises as you accelerate. Therefore
power only limits the speed you can accelerate to, not the rate of
acceleration. More power always means more torque. With the correct
reduction ratio you would always get most output torque at peak power, but
the trick is being able to stay at peak power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>"More power always means more torque."
What about a diesel motor for example?
310 hp @ 3000rpm
605 ft/lb @ 1600rpm
http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/silverado/6600_en.jsp
How is that explained?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
> jerry dycus wrote:
Not this first paragraph I didn't.
And I agree with you on lead sleds. I've never
liked them for the reasons stated, slow, costly with
only fair range.
But that's because they are conversions with low
powered controllers, not built as EV's from scratch. A
good, well designed EV can have good performance and
good range on flooded's.
The way is building a 1500lb aero EV with 1/2 it's
weight in GC batts like the T125. I never advocated
conversion lead sleds.
The Ev's I've built weight less than an ICE
versions even with 50% batt weight so hard to call
them lead sleds.
While hitting floodeds up for 800 amps isn't great
for them, how often will that happen for most people,
yourself excluded?
Lets face it John, you murder packs!!! Either
floodeds or AGM's. How many AGM packs have you killed?
So 800 amps x 55vdc from a 72 vdc pack, gives me
about 44kw or about 50 electric hp. For a 1500lb EV
that's enough to burn rubber, get you going in any
traffic safely.
But an EV has an advantage in it's hole shot,
starting torque, where it's a lot better than an ICE.
Now add that to 100-130 mile range and it beats
the pants off AGM's.
So yes it's above 1C as any good EV should be so
very easy on the batts.
Does any of your AGM EV's run an hour? The above
will run 2, maybe 3 hrs depending on traffic, speeds.
But is it AGM's that are better than floodeds or
just how that AGM is built? Many AGM's can't put out
400 amps without dying like Concordes. No?
It would be just as easy, maybe easier, to build a
flooded to put out the same amps. True?
Doesn't amps = plate area, acid strength,
interconnect size rather than AGM vs floodeds?
I like how you say your AGM's have a long life.
Yes, if you don't use them much, AGM's will last
longer, but for total energy delivered, used most
every day, GC will beat an AGM's butt.
And as the AGM will be 100% discharged at 30 miles
and the floodeds are only 40% discharged!!! Cycle life
will be much better with the floodeds even with high
current spikes.
At the cost of AGM's in daily driving, you can
ditch the GC batts when they start getting old and
still be way ahead of the game.
And if a small, say, 40 amphr, 500 amp floodeds
used in a high voltage string of say 312 vdc would
give excellent performance and about 130-150hp.
>
> > > One of Wayland's points seems to be (and I
> *hope* I
> > > don't misquote or
> > > misrepresent) that the lead sleds can only
> deliver
> > > on their promise of long cycle
> > > life and what not under special circumstances -
> > > basically by babying them and not
> > > demanding high power from them.
>
> Yes, that's it in a nutshell. No misquoting or
> misrepresenting that I can detect :-)
>
> > John's a little biased towards AGM's because
> of
> > the way he drives, shows his EV's and a good fit
> for
> > him.
>
> Actually, I'm biased towards 'any' battery type that
> can help one do a conversion type EV
> that in the end, doesn't have any oozing, spitting,
> or acid spray, any corrosion, any lack
> of vehicle utility, and provides terrific handling,
> braking, acceleration, and hill
> climbing ability. It doesn't have to be an AGM lead
> acid battery. However, for the present
> time, the AGM lead acid battery is an affordable
> solution that does fit.
If you want to pay through the nose and short
range, then yes it is.
But for you John, AGM's are the cheap way to go
but few are like you, truly the one amoung the many.
;-)
>
> >
> > But it's a costly fit compared to GC batts as
> > AGM's cost 3-4x what GC's do for a given range.
>
> Real life comparo.....Blue Meanie with 8, 69 lb. 6V
> golf car batteries, a 552 lb. pack @
> 48V. Even with 1000 amp power draws, 0-60 was
> probably 20 seconds, range when driven hard
> was 15 miles, 25-30 when driven moderately, and up
> to 45 miles or so when driven at
> unrealistic, 25-35 mph constant speeds. Cost of the
> pack today, would be $520 or so. These
> lasted about one year before they were done. The
Yet mine have lasted 2.5 yrs so far and still act
as new, could your flooded pack have been
murdered!!!!!!!
So it comes down to what do you want and call
performance. If you want to race, show off, spend lots
of money very close to home from little range, then
Orbital type AGM's are for you.
But if you want long range, low initial + running
costs with a good turn of speed, then a well designed
EV with flooded GC batts is the way to go. And for
$50/month more that AGM's costs, I'll gladly water my
floodeds!!
jerry dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
> What a joke this article is! How can anyone take this cr*p seriously?
Bill
> Ford's environmental pretentions were forever irreparably tarnished and
> exposed as a sham when he premeditatively murdered the Th!nk, and no
amount
> of greenwashing with the Escape Hybrid can change that!
>
> And planting flowers on the roof of a factory? Oh please, give us a
break!
> Another joke! That roof space would be so much better used for
> environmental purposes by covering it with solar panels to produce some of
> the energy required to run the factory. But what would you expect from
> Newsweek anyway?
>
> Charles
>
>
>
You wanna explain why Ford has a heavy Hybrid EV on the market??
If Bill didn't want it to happen.
I think Ford Jr. is very into the enviroment, but he also has to sell cars
and make a profit.
Most Joe six packs and soccer Moms want Large and don't care about the Gas
costs......Yet.
We are going to be up to our ears in Hybrids in just a couple of months...
Ford's Escape is going places that the others fear to tread.
Do you know how much roof space that plant has? Its in the Acre range.
As I recall Ford has 100s of acres of plant roof.
You rather see this as solid Asphalt???
It also save him Kilobucks in heating and cooling cost.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like DUHHHH!!
with Rudman Regs of course!!! Hooked back to the chargers. And in this case
also back to the control PC and software.
That's why I have been busting Butt to get Regs on the monster charger...
With 36,000 watts on hand... and over 200 amps of charger to make that
happen, The Regs are a rather important part of insane charge levels Backed
with
safety control gear to keep the lead from getting sprayed about.
I love Rudman regs, but they simply ain't going to fit in my pack.
Finding a place to dump (50 batts*2amps*whatever volts regging) is a bit
of a problem. I could put them outside the pack, but then you run into
wire losses causing them to be inaccurate. Waah.
Believe ME, it's not just one battery that gets slammed it's about 4, and
they can be different batteries at different times of the cycle.
Yup. I was using the word "one" to keep it simple. About 6 batteries
were shot beyond repair in my pack.
With infinte amps.... the voltage regualtion point will be almost instant.
Then you have the whole cycle in tapering back amps to maintain the given
pack voltage, interupted only by single batteries that can't take the full
amps. Or said another way, The pack will have a voltage controlled taper
slope, that the charger will follow, and if a single Battery, protected with
a Reg can't keep that battery regulated to 14.8, Then the taper back slope
will get steeper to allow the reg to bring it's battery back into line. When
we did the 80 amps(20Kw) cycle we got 9 amphours back in before we hit the
main pack voltage limit of 191 volts, then seconds later the Regs went wild,
and the amps dropped. The total amp hours returned was just under 25.
*nod* true. I've been doing a mini-experiment with the Elec-Trak and
it's charger and I can see these things happen with the floodeds using
my battery monitor light. Next project is I'm going to run the Elec-trak
on Hawkers for a bit. May sound odd, but two strings should be a model
of the currents (both discharge and charge) that the Prizm is seeing.
What you need to do is dump in as many amps as you can until the voltage
comes up, Then drop back to the 2.5 amps. We find that keeping the 20 amps
on while in taper back is where the Damage occurs. Once the pack hits full
voltage THEN you need regs. Once the total amps drops below the recombiner
max limits then Regs are also not needed. In theory... In practice Keep the
regs on since the combiners still can't keep 2 amps at 16 volts from
gassing...
*nod* Good point.
What???. As I said earlier... you don't need the high rate. On being
corrected, is seams that a C/3 rate is all that is recomended. The Why, has
not been stated, it's just that the cycle life is a bit greater if you do
charge them a bit faster. Do the Bulk at 20 amps and the taper at 2.5.
Unbalenced string???
Right. Roger and Hawker keep going on about the C/3 being an absolute
minimum. It's possible the cycle life is a bit greater, but the tradeoff
is that if you don't have a Rudman designed system you're probably going
to wind up baking le batteries.
Unbalanced string refers to the slim possibility that one string will be
pulling almost no current, while the other will pull all the current. I
suppose, but I doubt it would be a 99%-1% split. Then again I haven't
tested that; need to put 2 ammeters on the Elec-Trak when I test.
Yup and .8 will do that! IF you have(had) a good battery, and lots of time.
Lots of time? Well, if the amount of time to make the nipples pop (that
sounds bad but accurate) is under 8 hours, then it doesn't make a diff
since the charger shuts off anyway at that point.
OK.... 10K$ a pack, and a monthly service agreement of $250, You will need
to have the Ev attached to the charger at all times you are not using it.
And I need a IP address to do daily status checks.
You want turn Key? total hands off, that just means that someody else has to
do it for you. And that costs.
*nod* Now for the real question: I can spend 2.5k a battery pack and
nuke it every 6k miles. For 10k I can buy 4 packs, nuke away and get 30k
miles. Can a super-managed 10k pack get more than 30k miles?
There is the truth that dropping the pack is terrible. And yes, it is.
Really terrible. However thru it all there is a cost/benefit to
everything. Even battery life. That's why even if I had a NiMH pack with
5 times the life if it costs >10k it's not a bargain if I exclude the
annoyance costs.
don't feel alone, alot of us want to keep our EVs running for longer and
have cheaper up keep on our packs.
Thank you. That's really the goal here, learning as much as possible.
It's interesting without a doubt.
Cheap is flooded and a watering schedule... Easy is a AGM and a set of Regs,
and a darn good charger. But...it's not cheap.
Life is a set of trade-offs. I could go with BB600 batteries, but from
those who have it sounds like watering 250-500 batteries every month
could drive you bonkers. Floodeds are cheap without a doubt, but they
have all that acid stuff. AGMs are clean and high power and fit
everywhere in your car and don't take up passenger space, but they go
foom a lot.
And AA battery packs can catch fire. Life's a trade-off. The key is to
try and maximize what you have, make the improvements that cost the
least first and yield the highest benefits.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/28/2004 6:13:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Here's a good pic of a 4x4 S-10 frame, motor, and running gear:
http://www.free-image-host.org/images/616336865s10_chassi2.jpg
I'd have the ICE power the front wheels and the electric power the back.
>>
Why not remove the trans/transfer case and replace with a 2wd, and install
the motor inline with the front driveshaft?
Nice clearance notch in the crossmember, lots of beef nearby for motor mounts.
My '90 Blazer has a cable controlled deal to engage the front axle, and wont
shift 'on the fly', but that's not a dealbreaker...
hth,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I have never sent a message to the list, but I have been lurking for some
time.
I have enjoyed this current discussion of flooded golf cart vs. AGM
batteries.
Lee Hart wrote:
"calculate how fast you could do 0-60 mph on 54
kw." and "So, he used a pair of variable-speed belts, one driving each rear
wheel
from each end of the motor. This lowered drive train efficiency (maybe
90%), but continuously varied the ratio during accelleration to keep the
battery current near its full 500a throughout. This is the version that
accellerated the fastest (12 sec as I recall)"
As Lee implied, normally, computing acceleration is not simple, since the
current and voltage and gear ratio all vary during acceleration. However,
for the special case of a CVT that can keep the battery current (and thus
power) constant, computing the acceleration is very simple.
acceleration = speed / time
force = mass * acceleration
power = force * distance / time = force * speed
So,
acceleration = force / mass and time = speed / acceleration and force
= power / speed
time = speed * mass / force
time = mass * speed * speed / power
time = 2400 pounds * 0.4536 kg/pound * 60 miles/hr * 60 miles/hr .....
* 1609 m/mile * 1609 m/mile * 0.0002778 hr/s * 0.0002778 hr/s ....
/ 54000 w
time = 14.5 seconds (assuming no losses)
Assuming 90% efficiency in the motor and drivetrain, that goes up to 16.1
seconds. This seems much more likely that than the 12 seconds Lee
remembers.
However, it may be that we are missing the point here. I used to drive a
1967 VW bug. It was stock, no modifications at all. VW bugs had more than
36 HP by this time, but not a whole lot more.
In town, I doubt any one ever though I was holding up traffic. In fact,
after a little practice with the clutch, I could get away from a stoplight
and get across an intersection about as fast as most other cars and faster
than most. Now, I definitely could not climb a long hill on the interstate
at high speed, I would always be over in the truck lane. But, around town,
it seemed pretty peppy. VW knew that it was low powered, and gave it a four
speed transmission with a low first gear. My stock 67 could always keep up
with slower speed traffic, and higher speed roads tended to have more than
one lane where people could just go around me.
For most people, I think that the time it takes to get across an
intersection, say, 0 to 25 mph, is a much more important measure than 0-60
mph time.
John Wayland, I think Red Beastie had a 9 inch ADC with about a 500 amp
controller? According to some torque curves I found at evparts, this means
you had about 110 ft.lbs. of torque available at zero RPM. The EV album
seems to be down right now, but I recall that a 1995 Toyota might be close
to the base vehicle used to make Red Beastie. This truck (95 Toyota) had a
torque peak of 140 ft.lbs. at 4800 RPM. I think the torque available from
the ICE at low RPMs was much lower that what you had on Red Beastie. So, I
suspect that you could cross an intersection as fast or faster that an ICE
pickup, despite the extra weight. I realize that, on a long hill on the
interstate, Red Beastie would be over in the right lane with the cement
trucks and VW bugs. But around town, I doubt you had anything to apologize
for.
Sorry for the long message, but my point is, for a non-racer who only drives
their EV around town, "cross an intersection" time is a better measure than
0-60 mph time of how quick a car "feels". A well designed EV can use
flooded batteries and have a very good "cross an intersection" time.
Thanks,
John Haskell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim, if your still on the EVDL could you drop me a note? I can't seem to
reach you with the email address I have.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something in the agm/flooded discussion caught my attention. The
statement about a unibody car with 25 orbitals cracking.
25*45=1125 lbs of lead
I am planning 25 exides (25*40=1000 + 25lb aux ) so only 100 lbs less.
Does anyone know how strongle a 1987 300 zx is? it appears to be unibody
:-( but quite heavy.
Some specs
weight stock is listed as 3080 and gvwr is 3665 (1984FR,2205RR)
does that mean (3665 - weight of passengers) > = (3080-engine
weight-fuel load+165{warp9}+ batteryweight) does curb weight include
passengers?
19gallons*6.25 =123.5lbs of gas ( @72F)
3080-365-123.5+165 = 2756.5
3665 -300(passengers) -2756.5 =608 max battery weight :-(
How much can I fudge this? if the original weight bias was 57%front and
47% back and the gvwr is more in back, this sounds like I will need to
replace the motor difference up front with batteries
about 3 batteries then add equally front and rear, again I will have to
fudge this a little because of space, just how much weight bias can I
get away with?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know this is long, so any questions I have, I'll ask up
front so no one has to root through for the questions I ask.
John Wayland wrote:
>Same car with 13, 45 lb. 12V Optima AGM batteries, a
>585 lb. pack @ 156V. With
>1200 amp
>power draws, 0-60 is in the low 6 second area, range
>when driven hard is 15
>miles, 20-25
>miles when driven moderately, and up to 31 miles or
>so when driven at
>grandma-type 35 mph
>constant speeds.
What do you mean by driving 'moderately'? Is that the
equivalent to steady 60 MPH speeds, and using about 250-300
amps for acceleration?
Also, to what discharge levels are these figures quoted
at(guessing 100%)?
What about wh/mile consumption from pack to wheels under
moderate driving?
John Wayland wrote:
>Cost of the pack is around $1500 or so. These last
>about 5
>years before
>they are done, with the car driven at about the same
>amount per year as when it
>had golf
>car batteries. $1500 divided by 5 years, is just $300
>per year, compared to the
>golf car
>batteries at $520 a year. Performance is enhanced
>nearly four fold!
5 years? I'm interested in the number of miles I should
expect the pack to last, assuming my discharges never go
below 80%. After about 50 well-managed cycles or so, should
I expect to see an increase in capacity over nameplate, and
then after 250 cycles or so, start to see about 85% of
nameplate rating under non-abusive driving conditions? The
TZero with its 336V setup on Optimas was projected of having
a 30,000 mile pack life. I'd like at least 10,000 miles from
a 240V pack of Optimas, assuming these miles are racked up
over a 2 year period of time. Is this reasonable? If not, 6k
would still do fine.
John Wayland wrote:
>That kind of performance would be laughed at today,
>with the
>typical modern economy sedan capable of 0-60 in 9
>seconds or less.
Not everyone owns a new car though. I'd say in my area, most
cars do 0-60 in the 10-12 second range, as most are from
between the late 1980s to mid 1990s. VW bug performance
would still get embarassed. The cars that would actually be
willing to challenge me at a stoplight, however, is another
story. Those would indeed fit your description of generally
having 0-60 in 9 seconds, or better.
What could I realistically expect from a 2,600 pound EV with
a 240V Optima pack and zilla 1k? Rich and Goldie seem to
suggest 16-18 second 1/4 miles and 0-60 ~ 10, while Blue
Meanie seems to suggest 0-60 in about 6 and 1/4 mile in the
14s. My simulations seem to match closer to your description
of Blue Meanie's performance, but simulations are often off.
I know it's all guesswork at this point, but I'd still like
some idea of what to expect while building this car. It is
rear wheel drive and has a transmission that can handle the
torque(Tranny is not stock to the car).
I am looking to build something I can take to car shows and
show off, but I also need some semblence of practicality.
The farthest I drive from home is no more than 40 miles, and
that is taken by highway with speed limits between 55 and 65
MPH. I'd have the opportunity to recharge at the
destination. I'd like Evertrolls, but since they aren't
being made anymore, and since flooded NiCds need to be
accessable for watering and I want good handling and a low
center of gravity and don't have $15k(or more) to blow on a
lithium pack and management system, AGMs are my only
reasonable option. A shame about the Peukert's effect. What
I want may not be doable, so I would be satisfied if it was
capable of going half that range, just to get me back and
forth from my campus assuming I won't be able to charge
there.
Having followed this debate and asked many questions posed
within it that were earlier answered in a topic I
started(About sealed lead acid battery options), I know for
a fact floodies aren't for me. With the car I'm looking to
convert, it is 1,780 pounds stock, about 1,380 pounds glider
weight, and GVWR is about 2,200 pounds. I'm sure it's sturdy
enough to handle up to 2,700 pounds including driver with
beefed up springs and brakes, but I wouldn't want to go any
higher than that, and would preferably keep it at 2,600
pounds or below including driver.
That about eliminates the possibility of 6V golf car
batteries, or even non GC PbA floodies.
My pack weight can not go any more than 1,000 pounds, and
will probably be around 900 pounds or so. On a 2,600 pound
conversion with 240+ pack voltage and about 35-40 amp draw
at steady 60 MPH speeds, I might get 40-50 miles to 80%
according to simulation and in line with data provided by
Roger Stockton(If I use Optimas instead of Orbitals), but
data provided by Rich Rudman suggests I might get 20-25 to
80% assuming I adopt Otmar's or Wayland's driving habits(A
likely scenario under most driving cases). John Bryan
indicated his conversion can keep up with most traffic using
100 amps, so I will say using 150 amps for acceleration is
'moderate' driving for the car I'm looking to build. That
would probably net me range more in line with Roger
Stockton's data. If I race at every stoplight like my dad
does in his Audi TT, I might use 600-1,200 battery amps,
drastically cutting down range to Otmar or Wayland driving
like a maniac levels. I'd kill a set of GCs or floodies in
no time, even if steady highway driving might only take
around 170 wh/mile due to the 12-13 hp requirement I'd have
for 60 mph since Cd and cross sectional area would be so
low. It would be just too tempting to pass some SUV driver
on the cell phone occupying two lanes, just to flip the
bastard off while flying by at over 90. :)
To be fair, floodeds(Not the 6V GC kind) look as if they can
provide reasonable or even decent performance. Go through
the archives and look at Jonathan Dodge's electric 914. You
just wouldn't be able to make frequent use of that
performance, maybe once every few weeks. Not my cup of tea.
The 12V floodies make it possible to get double the power of
GCs with the same 400-500 amp current draws and still keep
the (marginal)range benefit over AGMs. The type of battery
he used is prone to problems, however. It may work fine for
Jerry Dycus's kit car idea, but why not go all out with AGMs
and a Zilla so you can kill Corvettes at a stoplight, while
only sacrificing maybe 10 miles range, and getting a lot
more if the driver has a lead foot? There's a reason the
lead acid TZero didn't use floodies. With AGMs and a DC
motor, I'm fairly certain a kit car knockoff of the TZero
could be done for under $15k. Sure beats out that ricer
dumping $20k into a gas Civic or CRX to get 13s in the
quarter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few suggestions:
Find a non T-Top car. 86 and earlier I think, the SCCA club racers all
want them. Weld that roof in if possible. And get an aluminum diff
housing, somewhere between the 280 and the 300, there is like 60 lbs
to be lost in the rear subframe/diff. Strip the spare tire, the sound
deadening (look under the carpet), and you can probably get a lot of
the weight you need.
That engine block was robust, but Don't forget you are removing the
alternator, water pump, fuel pump, radiator, oil cooler fan, hoses,
etc. Weigh it all on the way out. You may be pleasantly surprised. The
exhaust isn't made of solidified helium, either ;)
Good luck!
Seth
On Dec 29, 2004, at 9:32 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Something in the agm/flooded discussion caught my attention. The
statement about a unibody car with 25 orbitals cracking.
25*45=1125 lbs of lead
I am planning 25 exides (25*40=1000 + 25lb aux ) so only 100 lbs less.
Does anyone know how strongle a 1987 300 zx is? it appears to be
unibody :-( but quite heavy.
Some specs
weight stock is listed as 3080 and gvwr is 3665 (1984FR,2205RR)
does that mean (3665 - weight of passengers) > = (3080-engine
weight-fuel load+165{warp9}+ batteryweight) does curb weight include
passengers?
19gallons*6.25 =123.5lbs of gas ( @72F)
3080-365-123.5+165 = 2756.5
3665 -300(passengers) -2756.5 =608 max battery weight :-(
How much can I fudge this? if the original weight bias was 57%front
and 47% back and the gvwr is more in back, this sounds like I will
need to replace the motor difference up front with batteries about 3
batteries then add equally front and rear, again I will have to fudge
this a little because of space, just how much weight bias can I get
away with?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What makes a LRR tire? It seems to me that having a high max PSI rating is
what makes it LRR?
So are all 44+psi tires LRR and 35psi tires are not?
A LRR tire I've seen is the Goodyear Viva 2 that is sold at WalMart(low cost
tire too). The little display card actually mentions it having low rolling
resistance. It's 44psi and other tires are only 35psi. Pepboys tires that
are made by Cooper for them air up to 44psi..
I've seen mentions on the net about the "Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus" tire
being LRR, but I can't find anything actually saying it is.
I didn't see it in the spec.pdf or on the page:
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinEnergyMXV4Plus.html?tiretype=2&tire=4
This page makes reference too both tires being LRR:
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/earthwise.cfm?publicationID=875
Although this "Michelin Energy MXV4 S8" tire mentions "lower rolling
resistance"..
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinEnergyMXV4S8.html?tiretype=2&tire=3
Anyone have any info on LRR tires?
Anyone know of any ~50psi tires?
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having seen this Triumph GT6+ for sale, with body, brakes,
suspension, and transmission in excellent condition, and
with already installed and rebuilt TR6 engine, drive axel,
and transmission, exposed to the cold months, and going for
so cheap, is just killing me.
I'm going to snatch it, before someone else does. It is just
too perfect for a conversion, and if I pass it up, I'm
probably going to be smacking myself in the head for years
over it. It's a shame to see it out there exposed, and not
in a garage. This car's overall Cd*A is on par a Honda
Insight(.32 Cd and area of 15 feet square), and it is about
the lightest choice for a conversion I will find in my area,
as Datsun 1200s, Austin Healey Bugeye Sprites, and Fiat 850s
are nowhere to be found, although an MG Midget is very light
it has awful aero; GT6 is only a scant 1,780 pounds and I
think looks the best out of all of them and I'd probably be
most happy with it.
Restorations + conversions aren't exactly cheap or easy from
what I've read, although they will certainly bond me with
the car more.
What tools would those who have done projects like this
recommend, for starters? I want to know how much money I'm
going to need to invest in tools. I'm a little hampered by
the fact that I don't have a two car garage, it's more like
a 1.5 car garage that fits one car and has plenty of
leftover space, and I only possess the basic tools that most
households have. I'm certainly going to need to rent an
engine crane. I haven't been able to arrage converting the
car at my university, it is possible but unlikely, and I
wouldn't want nothing getting stolen.
I plan to take the following steps in this order along with
a photograph conversion diary of the whole process:
1) Strip the interior
a) Replace the stock seats with lighter seats(-40 pounds
after replacement seats are put back in)
b) Remove all carpets(-15 lbs)
c) Remove all sound deadener(-25 pounds)
d) Remove wood panel dash, replace with custom leather
dash(-5 pounds)
e) Shave down or perhaps even remove bumpers(-15 to -40
pounds)
2) Measurements
a) Drive car up to get weighed
b) Calculate where to position motor/batteries for about a
50/50 weight distribution, battery box needs, ect.
3) Fix alignment and get car to have 0 camber. Remove gas
engine, gas tank, air conditioning, ect. You know the rest
on that part. Weigh each component removed and record its
position. Tow car over to get weighed again and glider
weight and weight distribution.
4) Restoration
a) Take the newly placed in interior parts and carefully
remove them
b) Clean all grease! There's grease under wheel wells,
around the tranny, around the engine, ect.
c) Strip off the tacky babysh-- yellow paintjob that was
done to make the car half-assed presentable to a prospective
buyer
d) Sand down any and all rust from all parts of the unibody
e) Rustproof everything
g) Re-paint the car. I'm looking at a two-tone color that
alternates between Dark British Racing Green and Black
depending on how the light hits it. I want to make the car
scream "I'm an attention whore and I attract crowds of
people that ask dumb questions like what kind of car am I
and how fast do I go while my owner always has to tell them
it's not a Ferrari or Jaguar and then spouts off some track
time that no one understands! Don't even get me started when
he sits there with my hood popped open at the local gas
station..."
h) Put back in the aftermarket/custom interior pieces I took
out
5) Conversion
a) New racing clutch to handle torque
b) Basic aero mods done to EVs like underbelly, covered
grille, ect.
c) By now, a motor will be bought.
d) Fabricate adaptor plate for tranny
e) Fabricate motor mount. May involve moving crossmembers to
make room and will not be done if can be avoided.
f) Fabricate battery boxes. Want batteries as low as
possible and want a very low CoG for handling
g) Buy needed EV components that aren't purchased by now
h) Install said components
6) Drive EV, hunt down all sources of unwanted drag, correct
discovered problems
7) Post Conversion(In no particular order and some perhaps
years after EV is on the road)
a) Professionl driving course
b) Experiment with different types of LRR tires
c) Machine down flywheel
d) RACING
e) Aluminum LeMans bonnet, fiberglass doors, fiberglass
hatch('trunk'), aluminum alloy wheels, lightweight
windows(-200 to -250 pounds)
f) Lightweight but decent power Bose sterio system(Looking
at maybe 600 watts or so. Don't want anything too heavy or
large, but want something decent)
g) Transmission upgrade if the TR6 unit cannot handle more
than 300 lb-ft
h) Zilla 2k(assuming Berube's Zilla 1.8k gets sold by the
time I start buying conversion parts. It probably will,
although the original intent was to use a Zilla 1k due to
cost and the fact that it would be stupid to go over 1,200
motor amps with the transmission)
i) Use my college education in EE to design a management
system for Li Ions and build a Li Ion pack!(Waaaay down the
road)
j) Possible upgrade to AC drive later on. Maybe. Nothing
less than 150 horsepower would be wanted, and LiIons or
another advanced chemistry would be a prerequisite for me to
do this. On the plus side, it would weigh less than as a gas
car by this time! A TR6 engine with only about 110 horse
would take it from 0-60 < 6 seconds with about 1800 pounds
weight...
Does this plan sound about right and what tools are
recommended? I know some have had bad experiences doing
restorations + conversions and now wish they did something
else, like Jonathan dodge and his Porsche 914, but I'm not
going to be happy with a Geo Metro or an S10. I want to try
to find a happy medium between range and performance and
maximize both from there, while maintaining a reasonable
degree of practicality. I'm looking for a car that will get
speed-obsessed kids my age at least somewhat interested in
this technology.
If anyone has not seen the post on the components I had
planned to use, I can re-list them if necessary, but
basically I'm looking at a WarP 9'' being run at its rated
voltage(192V) and using a Zilla 1k in a conversion that will
weigh about 2,600 pounds(Without lightweight parts for an
upgrade. About 2,400 with lightweight parts) with a 900
pound battery pack including weight of driver, and would
like 40 miles highway to 20% SoC. My performance goal is for
low 15s in the 1/4 or faster, but I'd still be happy with
tepid 18s in the 1/4 if that's what I get, but would like
faster. I'd also be happy with only 20 miles range to 80%,
but would also like more. Simulation results seem favorable
to 14s in the 1/4 mile drag and 40+ miles range at 60-65 MPH
to 80% DoD using Optimas, but simulations can also be dead
wrong and wholly innaccurate.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004, Ryan Stotts wrote:
I've seen mentions on the net about the "Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus" tire
being LRR, but I can't find anything actually saying it is.
There's something hidden in the page you mention below explaining the
history of the tire (google finds it, but i don't see it in the page).
They replace carbon black with silica to lower the rolling resistance of
the tire.
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinEnergyMXV4Plus.html?tiretype=2&tire=4
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the OEM Michelin MXV4s that I had were good for 10% better range
over a standard tire. If the S8 variant of that tire is better, then I
would get them. They wore like iron and rode like a down pillow and
were quiet. Truly amazing. Not cheap to replace, but when you remember
that they will last probably 3 battery packs, they don't seem so bad.
And 10% more range is never cheap. Especially when it is on the end of
a tow hook :) I have run the OEM Eagle LS LRR tires (VW TDI) at > 50
PSI and had no problems other than abnormal wear. I did get abnormally
high mileage, too, which was the point.
Seth
On Dec 29, 2004, at 10:31 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
What makes a LRR tire? It seems to me that having a high max PSI
rating is
what makes it LRR?
So are all 44+psi tires LRR and 35psi tires are not?
A LRR tire I've seen is the Goodyear Viva 2 that is sold at
WalMart(low cost
tire too). The little display card actually mentions it having low
rolling
resistance. It's 44psi and other tires are only 35psi. Pepboys tires
that
are made by Cooper for them air up to 44psi..
I've seen mentions on the net about the "Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus"
tire
being LRR, but I can't find anything actually saying it is.
I didn't see it in the spec.pdf or on the page:
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinEnergyMXV4Plus.html?
tiretype=2&tire=4
This page makes reference too both tires being LRR:
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/earthwise.cfm?publicationID=875
Although this "Michelin Energy MXV4 S8" tire mentions "lower rolling
resistance"..
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinEnergyMXV4S8.html?
tiretype=2&tire=3
Anyone have any info on LRR tires?
Anyone know of any ~50psi tires?
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm... I hope the car is around $2000 or less.
Triumphs and Midgets are pretty cheap. Although
your plan seems well thought out, you forgot a couple
weaknesses of the car. The trannies and rear end are
pretty whimpy in the brit cars. Although my
conversion is taking me forever, I have a 2spd racing
tranny and a custom Ford 9" rear end for my Midget.
You might want to break out the ruler as well because
there isn't a whole lot of room for batteries. With
decent sized batteries, you can at best squeeze in
18 of them (if you are looking for performance rhat
is). The extra battery weight will tax your suspension.
I had custom springs made by Alcan to handle an extra
800 lbs in the rear. Finally, if this vehicle has a rusted
tub, be wary. A big part of the vehicle support employs
the main tub. There are plenty of these vehicle in rust
free territory to be had.
I don't want to discourage. You have the right idea.
I'm just adding for some more food for thought.
--Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wed Dec 29 19:47:03 2004
Subject: Questions to those who have done a restoration + conversion
Having seen this Triumph GT6+ for sale, with body, brakes,
suspension, and transmission in excellent condition, and
with already installed and rebuilt TR6 engine, drive axel,
and transmission, exposed to the cold months, and going for
so cheap, is just killing me.
I'm going to snatch it, before someone else does. It is just
too perfect for a conversion, and if I pass it up, I'm
probably going to be smacking myself in the head for years
over it. It's a shame to see it out there exposed, and not
in a garage. This car's overall Cd*A is on par a Honda
Insight(.32 Cd and area of 15 feet square), and it is about
the lightest choice for a conversion I will find in my area,
as Datsun 1200s, Austin Healey Bugeye Sprites, and Fiat 850s
are nowhere to be found, although an MG Midget is very light
it has awful aero; GT6 is only a scant 1,780 pounds and I
think looks the best out of all of them and I'd probably be
most happy with it.
Restorations + conversions aren't exactly cheap or easy from
what I've read, although they will certainly bond me with
the car more.
What tools would those who have done projects like this
recommend, for starters? I want to know how much money I'm
going to need to invest in tools. I'm a little hampered by
the fact that I don't have a two car garage, it's more like
a 1.5 car garage that fits one car and has plenty of
leftover space, and I only possess the basic tools that most
households have. I'm certainly going to need to rent an
engine crane. I haven't been able to arrage converting the
car at my university, it is possible but unlikely, and I
wouldn't want nothing getting stolen.
I plan to take the following steps in this order along with
a photograph conversion diary of the whole process:
1) Strip the interior
a) Replace the stock seats with lighter seats(-40 pounds
after replacement seats are put back in)
b) Remove all carpets(-15 lbs)
c) Remove all sound deadener(-25 pounds)
d) Remove wood panel dash, replace with custom leather
dash(-5 pounds)
e) Shave down or perhaps even remove bumpers(-15 to -40
pounds)
2) Measurements
a) Drive car up to get weighed
b) Calculate where to position motor/batteries for about a
50/50 weight distribution, battery box needs, ect.
3) Fix alignment and get car to have 0 camber. Remove gas
engine, gas tank, air conditioning, ect. You know the rest
on that part. Weigh each component removed and record its
position. Tow car over to get weighed again and glider
weight and weight distribution.
4) Restoration
a) Take the newly placed in interior parts and carefully
remove them
b) Clean all grease! There's grease under wheel wells,
around the tranny, around the engine, ect.
c) Strip off the tacky babysh-- yellow paintjob that was
done to make the car half-assed presentable to a prospective
buyer
d) Sand down any and all rust from all parts of the unibody
e) Rustproof everything
g) Re-paint the car. I'm looking at a two-tone color that
alternates between Dark British Racing Green and Black
depending on how the light hits it. I want to make the car
scream "I'm an attention whore and I attract crowds of
people that ask dumb questions like what kind of car am I
and how fast do I go while my owner always has to tell them
it's not a Ferrari or Jaguar and then spouts off some track
time that no one understands! Don't even get me started when
he sits there with my hood popped open at the local gas
station..."
h) Put back in the aftermarket/custom interior pieces I took
out
5) Conversion
a) New racing clutch to handle torque
b) Basic aero mods done to EVs like underbelly, covered
grille, ect.
c) By now, a motor will be bought.
d) Fabricate adaptor plate for tranny
e) Fabricate motor mount. May involve moving crossmembers to
make room and will not be done if can be avoided.
f) Fabricate battery boxes. Want batteries as low as
possible and want a very low CoG for handling
g) Buy needed EV components that aren't purchased by now
h) Install said components
6) Drive EV, hunt down all sources of unwanted drag, correct
discovered problems
7) Post Conversion(In no particular order and some perhaps
years after EV is on the road)
a) Professionl driving course
b) Experiment with different types of LRR tires
c) Machine down flywheel
d) RACING
e) Aluminum LeMans bonnet, fiberglass doors, fiberglass
hatch('trunk'), aluminum alloy wheels, lightweight
windows(-200 to -250 pounds)
f) Lightweight but decent power Bose sterio system(Looking
at maybe 600 watts or so. Don't want anything too heavy or
large, but want something decent)
g) Transmission upgrade if the TR6 unit cannot handle more
than 300 lb-ft
h) Zilla 2k(assuming Berube's Zilla 1.8k gets sold by the
time I start buying conversion parts. It probably will,
although the original intent was to use a Zilla 1k due to
cost and the fact that it would be stupid to go over 1,200
motor amps with the transmission)
i) Use my college education in EE to design a management
system for Li Ions and build a Li Ion pack!(Waaaay down the
road)
j) Possible upgrade to AC drive later on. Maybe. Nothing
less than 150 horsepower would be wanted, and LiIons or
another advanced chemistry would be a prerequisite for me to
do this. On the plus side, it would weigh less than as a gas
car by this time! A TR6 engine with only about 110 horse
would take it from 0-60 < 6 seconds with about 1800 pounds
weight...
Does this plan sound about right and what tools are
recommended? I know some have had bad experiences doing
restorations + conversions and now wish they did something
else, like Jonathan dodge and his Porsche 914, but I'm not
going to be happy with a Geo Metro or an S10. I want to try
to find a happy medium between range and performance and
maximize both from there, while maintaining a reasonable
degree of practicality. I'm looking for a car that will get
speed-obsessed kids my age at least somewhat interested in
this technology.
If anyone has not seen the post on the components I had
planned to use, I can re-list them if necessary, but
basically I'm looking at a WarP 9'' being run at its rated
voltage(192V) and using a Zilla 1k in a conversion that will
weigh about 2,600 pounds(Without lightweight parts for an
upgrade. About 2,400 with lightweight parts) with a 900
pound battery pack including weight of driver, and would
like 40 miles highway to 20% SoC. My performance goal is for
low 15s in the 1/4 or faster, but I'd still be happy with
tepid 18s in the 1/4 if that's what I get, but would like
faster. I'd also be happy with only 20 miles range to 80%,
but would also like more. Simulation results seem favorable
to 14s in the 1/4 mile drag and 40+ miles range at 60-65 MPH
to 80% DoD using Optimas, but simulations can also be dead
wrong and wholly innaccurate.
--- End Message ---
