EV Digest 3991
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) milage chart
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Advanced DC 9" 144 Volt Performance graph
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Ultra Lightweight Low Rolling Resistance tires
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Message for the world
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Interesting PRIUS+ Plug-in Hybrid Post
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 300zx conversion, 240Z questions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: High current li-ions from Sony
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Brush help
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV Phoenix and fly by wire
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Jeep EV update (was: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Brush help
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Why day dream. Cedric's bike is a project anyone with welding skills could
do. It is light and efficient. It is very funky but functional. I'm sure
you could do the same with an enclosed Honda 90 or 50 body or make your own
scooter based recumbent. Like this
http://www.voidstar.com/bff/images/recped.jpg Just take a battery box and
weld a front and rear suspension on and a full streamliner fairing.
Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 2:40 PM
Subject: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
In its latest form it's fitted with 18 100Ah ThunderSky Lithium cells
and as a result has shed some 40Kg. Cedric has ridden 400 miles in a day
and rode from Honiton to Potters Bar, a journey of 175 miles, on a
single
charge at an average speed of 50mph.
At no deeper than 80%DOD, that's about 5kwh in 175mi, ~1.4kw at 50mph (he
either
had hills and headwinds on this trip or the previous estimate of 1.5kw at
60mph
was a bit optimistic). That's 35mi/kwh compared to 5mi/kwh for an EV1 with
2
people (and a lot of luggage room).
What kind of TS cell (18 units and a weight of less than 168 pounds yet
giving 175 milses range at 50 mph) is Cedric Lynch using? This is Cedric
Lynch's motorcycle.(see url below) Totally enclosed. Very efficient.
Seems these cells work.
Thunder-Sky lists 3.9kg for their LMP100AHA [what's the difference between
this
cell and the LCP100AHA model at 3.0kg?], so it must include BMS and
interconnects. What is his charger? He needs ~76V end-of-charge/30A
overall.
Cedric's reality inspires my daydream: a fully-enclosed bike with enough
width
to the teardrop to fully enclose the front wheel, a pair of stabiizer
wheels
that swing down near the rear end at anything under 15mph, body like a
Rutan
plane without wings or tail for a smooth, uninterrupted surface with no
mirrors, just CCD cameras that feed to monitors on either side of the
dash,
plus 2-piece canopy that opens by spring load or pressure cylinders, and
batteries stacked in the centerline frame member (or integrated into the
body
if Li-Poly).
In the mind's eye and poorly-scribbled drawings, it gets a frontal area of
<7sq.ft. and Cd =/<0.1. While I'm at it, no traditional handle bars or
steering
wheel, but a pair of levers close to where your hands would normally rest
(adjustable in length), accelerator and brake pedals move fore-and-aft
(non-moving seat), and to top it off, just enough room behind the
passenger to
stick an adaptation of a 2kw Honda generator as an APU!
Enough of daydreams, back to the real world...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes! amperages at speeds on level surfaces and such would be great. My
brain is starting to stew here,
If this was a web page, perhaps each piece of info could also be a link,
opening a window of collected info so wh/mile is a calculated average
and the window contains various data points with little notes like, "new
tires", "toe adjusted", commute @30 psi, commute at 40psi, club rally...etc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dated 1992, probable everyones seen it, if not, here it is:
http://img8.exs.cx/img8/937/adv92ro.gif
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We'd need to contact the manufactures and see what the
weight limits on all the different sizes are:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=10100
http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip_et_front.html
http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect10.html
Example prices:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/CategoryDisplay?cgmenbr=361&cgrfnbr=827
Odd how they don't state how much weight they can handle.
I've seen large 1970's "muscle cars" with big block motors
running tires like that on the front... I was thinking
having them on all four corners on a little ol' lightweight
EV... 4.5" or 5" treadwidth and numerous heights for 15"
wheels.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > One thing to consider, before building a vehicle
> with lever steering, is
> > the relationship between linear movement of the
> driver's hands and the
> > angular movement of the wheel(s). Lever steering
> works fine for low
> > speed vehicles (like a Bobcat mini tractor) but I
> think you'll find that
> > in order to slow the steering rate down enough to
> prevent you from
> > zig-zagging down the road at highway speeds,
> you'll need 6 foot long
> > levers and really long arms.
what about a computer program that modified the imputs
of your hand movements such that at hi speeds it took
a large movement to make any significant adjustment
but at low speeds the response would even be magnified
to more than the lever movement. I ask because i am
planning an ev with "tank/robot" type steering via
wire and a joy stick.
I am presently riding a trike with direct lever
seering and it does get a bit difficult when going
down hill and exceeding 25mph but it is so much fun to
spin donuts and tight zigzags that I really want to
figure out a way of doing this.
Any electronic/computer gurus who can give
direction???
> > I went through this exercise when we were
> designing a solar car back in
> > school, and after crunching a few numbers, it was
> very clear that if you
> > wanted to be able to turn tighly enough to do a
> U-turn (a design
> > requirement) and also have fine control for smooth
> straignt-line
> > steering, a steering wheel is the simplest way to
> go.
> >
>
> Thanks, Andrew - a dose of real life experience goes
> a long way towards making
> dreams less vaporous! I'll just put an aircraft-type
> "butterfly" steering wheel
> in front of my imagined self (but the rest stays,
> until there's more engineering
> input).
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is my intention to be available for work by June. I wish to work for a
company that furthers electric vehicle development, or other work that
furthers the interests of peace, love, and respect. I intend to work on
battery management in the meantime.
Happy new year everyone!
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the Prius+ is finally taking off, and this
post may be interesting to some of you here.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/260
Sherry Boschert wrote:
Hooray for the EAA for backing the CalCars Initiative!
Yay!!
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All
Seth Murray wrote:
> ....my stock '72 240Z was around 2350-4000 lbs.
Yup. The stock '72 Z car weighed 2350 lbs. on the nose.
> I'm planning 192V of optimas, 10 up front and 6 in the
> back. I estimate a finished weight of around 2700 lbs.
> maybe a little more, as things always weigh more than they do.
My stock 1200 weighed just shy of 1600 lbs., and after conversion into a 156V,
high
amperage performance machine, it's gained about 700 lbs. This extra weight
'does' include
an upgraded interior, a motorized rear battery tray, and lots of hi pro stereo
equipment.
This is with 13 batteries, not 16 as you'll have with a 192V system...that's
another 135
lbs. If you don't go as rad as I did with stereo equipment, and considering a
much heavier
in-line 6 engine you've removed, I'm guessing that your electrified 240Z will
weigh 500 -
600 lbs. more over the stock weight, so I'm predicting 2850-2950 lbs. Now, go
prove me
wrong and try to get it in close to that 2700 lbs. for the ultimate in
performance....I'm
hoping you can do it, but doubtful.
> > My brother Roger...got a Datsun 240Z...a monster machine, with triple dual
> > barrel
> > Webbers, headers, hi compression pistons, ported head, Nissan Comp.
> > distributor, etc,
> etc.
> > I'd estimate 0-60 was in the 5.5 second range, and top speed was around 150
> > mph!
>
> damn, my 240 won't come close....oh well.
Keep in mind, that with lighter alloy wheels that negated the small amount of
extra engine
weight we added, the car weighed 2350 lbs. and had an easy 275 hp.
It was slammed to the ground with a for-real BRE (Brock Racing Enterprises)
Stage III
suspension system, and had light weight American Racing 4 spokes shod with
Pirelli hi pro
rubber. The high revving, hi power engine coupled to a curve sucking suspension
was topped
off with its factory burnt orange paint buffed to a super hi gloss luster.
Yes, it was a badass Datsun that sounded sweet, layed rubber in all 4 gears,
and quite
simply, was quick and fast as hell...way stronger than the 327 Vette!
> should be fun with a Z1k anyway.
For sure...remember, you'll have abundant DC torque, turbine smoothness, and
zero
emissions to go along with that clean looking Z.
> if I recall correctly, the 240Z had a stock top speed of about
> 120-130, is that right?
Yes. Though the speedo went to an optimistic 160 mph, most road testers
reported 125-127
mph top speeds for stock 240Zs.
> at those speeds the engine would have to be
> going 5-6k rpm I'd imagine, but I'll have no torque up there because of
> my 192V and four speed.
Again, pretty much right on. However, with a gear change to a bit taller cogs
in the rear
end (lower numerically), or better yet, keep those 3:70 gears to preserve
snappy 0-60 and
simply the add an overdrive 5 speed 280Z tranny. You should be able to put
120-160 hp to
the ground at speeds over 100 mph and it 'will' hit 125 mph or so, but please,
do it on a
race track...we've got to keep fresh EVers like you around.
> a few more questions for our datsun expert:
Hmmm, I like that title.
> -know anything about aluminum diff housings?
Yes, everything...lots of factory rear ends to choose from, lots of posi stuff,
12 gear
ratios, different sizes for unreal power levels (R160, R180, R200), but sorry,
to my
knowledge, no aluminum housing.
> man that thing is heavy,
> and the 240Z has some seriously heavy rear drive shafts too.
Well, now you're discovering the heavy duty nature of all things Datsun that I
and other
Datsoholics already know. They make their stuff heavy duty from the factory.
While other
car companies only offered 'optional' forged crankshafts, Datsuns came
standard with
them. While Toyota brought in Coronas and Corollas with straight live axles in
back,
Datsun made 510s and Z Cars with IRS..... etc., etc.
> -I have heard that the 240Z tachometer is current fed, but the 280Z is
> "normal." any thoughts?
True. The 240Z, 510, 1200, and minitruck tachs were all 'current fed' types,
and yes, the
280Z was voltage sensing, but it cannot be directly swapped into the 240 Z's
dash. Otmar
designed a circuit though, that makes the current fed type tachs work for me.
You might
contact him.
Keep us up to speed.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And planting flowers on the roof of a factory? Oh please, give us a break!
As I recall Ford has 100s of acres of plant roof.
You rather see this as solid Asphalt???
It also save him Kilobucks in heating and cooling cost.
And it retains stormwater rather than just letting it drain all at once,
which means no (or fewer) retention ponds, or less of a surge if there
were no ponds before.
I'm not knocking solar panels, either, but there's value in doing this.
Maybe they could put up some wind power on the roof,
cheaper than PV. I think it's also important to produce
or collect renewable power, conservation isn't enough.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These sure beat the pants off the 1Ah 18650's I use on my scooter.
And going with the 26650VT cells there wouldn't be any paralleling!
That would kick but, just 8 cells in series, only 1.6 Lbs! Hot Damn!.
Where can I get a few of these things?
L8r
Ryan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I happened across a press release from Sony about li-ions coming out in January
- check out the power density:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200412/04-060E/
If you can't tell, I'm looking at the 26650VT cells, which have a maximum output
of 50A (20C). At 90gm, that's twice as much as the G8 cells of the same
capacity, but the wt/gm is better than li-polys. A series/parallel (2000
cells!) could max out a 1K Zilla in a 400# pack; it's nothing like the Bolders
fueling the Killacycle, but perhaps useful hybridized with another pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude,
According to my manual, for my 9" ADC motor, there are just two sets of
holes for brush advance. One set (probably where your set screws are at),
is for CCW rotation, the other set is for CW. I don't think you'll need
to drill any new holes, merely move the set screws.
On my drawing (from the manual), the angle of the first set screws is at
34degrees, the mounting hole for the commutator end is at 45 (net 11
degrees delta). I thought this should be more like 20 degrees (10 to -10),
but apparently it doesn't add up quite like that.
The manual is pretty clear, and doesn't mention anything about drilling new
holes, so I'm confident you'll be on the money by just moving the set
screws to the other holes. Call ADC tech support if you have any doubts.
I don't know about the scores in the brushes. It doesn't look too bad, so
as long as they have plenty of life left, they should be OK. On small
motors, I've cleaned up the commutator with some emory cloth, but make sure
you clean out the grooves of any filings or dirt, lest you create a short.
You might be better off not messing with it at all (other than reclocking
it).
I've also heard you should break in new brushes, by running the motor
unloaded with 12V (for several hours). Not sure if that would be necessary
if you're just reclocking it, but it couldn't hurt.
Best regards, Jim Seibert
> [Original Message]
> From: Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EVDL <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 12/30/2004 8:19:55 PM
> Subject: Brush help
>
> We're prepping the motor in anticipation of receiving our adapter.
> Nathan's just got the bell housing off; I have pictures at my website:
> http://judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/current.html . Since I've never
> seen *good* brushes and commutators before, I have no idea if what I'm
> looking at is normal. Hence the pictures. Please visit and comment.
>
> The unsettling news is that we only have two possible settings for our
> brushes. Reading my EV archives, it appears that we'll need to drill an
> extra set, 10 degrees (or approximately 0.8") in the other direction.
> Horrors. I expect to make a cardboard template of the current holes,
> move the set screws to the neutral position, flip the cardboard, and
> drill new holes. Anybody got any better ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Judebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
good luck with the wires keith
I just stumbled aboard the MV Phoenix, on the hard in her cradle on the
north shore of Lake Ontario.
She'd a lobster boat built by the Lowell clan on Beale Is.,Maine, back
in the `60's.
In the `80's she was reno'ed and double planked with cabintop and after
deck w/canvas added.
But she's still a working boat and all her interior hull is exposed and
accessible.
Here's a snip from the www site from the current Lowells, about her
pedigry:
"Moderately lightweight, high-compression power plants were not
available until late in Frost's boatbuilding and designing career. So
he paid close attention to improving the efficiency of the underwater,
or wetted, surfaces of his hulls."
I hope this bodes well for a life at six knots on a battery pack in the
sheltered harbour and lagoons.
Think 32 foot canoe.
Sweet.
She could go waterskiing out in the lake with her inboard Mercruiser
260 gas engine.
But she will never fire that baby up again.
She is to be reborn again as an RV and an EV.
As a liveboard for the harbour.
Priorities are house system first and traction a distant second.
In planning use of interior space, it occurs to me there will be no
need for a steering station any more.
I fully expect to be helming her by joy-stick at some point.
Regards
lOcK Hughes
aboard MV Phoenix
on the hard and scootin' by the bay
Toronto Harbour
--- keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what about a computer program that modified the imputs
> of your hand movements such that at hi speeds it took
> a large movement to make any significant adjustment
> but at low speeds the response would even be magnified
> to more than the lever movement. I ask because i am
> planning an ev with "tank/robot" type steering via
> wire and a joy stick.
>
> I am presently riding a trike with direct lever
> seering and it does get a bit difficult when going
> down hill and exceeding 25mph but it is so much fun to
> spin donuts and tight zigzags that I really want to
> figure out a way of doing this.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick,
Congrats on getting the vibrations fixed.
You mention low volts at the motor side of the controller; what about the
battery side under the same conditions. If you have low volts out, but good
volts in, then your controller is probably bad. However, if the voltage at
the controller input is sagging, it could indicate something in your pack
or contactors is fishy.
BTW, I'm still waiting to hear back from Ken on my warranty work on my
Raptor 600 (it's still setting on my bench). I'll let everyone know how
that goes...
Jim
> [Original Message]
> From: Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 12/31/2004 6:12:58 PM
> Subject: Jeep EV update (was: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC)
>
> Hi,
>
> Since my last post, I took my 9" Advanced DC motor to a motor shop to
> have the melted field terminal replaced and the motor checked out. The
> shop said the coils and everything looked in great condition, and they
> feel that the melted terminal was the only thing wrong with the motor.
>
> I spent yesterday putting my Jeep back together. Everything is back the
> way it was except that I installed an analog voltmeter across the
> Raptor's Motor+ and Battery- buss. I also removed the ammeter from the
> motor loop and put it back into the battery loop. I charged the
> batteries and went for several test drives.
>
> The first thing I noticed was that the vibration in the drivetrain at
> high motor RPMs (4000+) is now gone. Previously I had done many things,
> including balancing the flywheel/pressure plate assembly with washers to
> try and get rid of the vibration. I discovered when I pulled the motor
> last week that the clutch pilot bearing had fallen out of position
> because the bushing which holds it in the center of the flywheel had
> moved backwards. Before reinstalling the motor, I adjusted the bushing
> such that it and the bearing cannot possibly move. I can no longer feel
> vibration at higher motor RPMs. :-)
>
> That was the good news. The not so great news is that I still think I
> have a problem. Acceleration is still rather lousy. The Jeep does seem
> to have more power now that the bad motor connection is fixed, but it
> still doesn't seem right. That is, I still have to start out in 1st gear
> and have to drive the motor RPMs way up before shifting if I want any
> power. And I still have to floor the throttle a lot to start out or to
> accelerate in any reasonable amount of time.
>
> I did discover something interesting while watching the voltmeter on the
> motor side of the controller as I was driving. The voltage in the motor
> loop NEVER went above 115 volts! In fact, the voltage most of the time
> was always below 105 volts. Even when I had the throttle floored, the
> voltage only went up to 115 volts. If you remember back to my previous
> posts, the WOT light on my controller never lights up with the throttle
> floored UNLESS the motor is at 4300 RPMs or higher. So, as a test, I
> started in 1st from a stop, and floored it in first gear. I kept it
> floored until I hit well into the 5000 RPM range (~33 mph). This means
> that the WOT light on the Raptor was NOT on until the motor hit 4300
> RPMs, when the light then came ON, and stayed on until I released the
> throttle (and the motor RPMs began to drop). This entire time the
> voltage to the motor NEVER went above 115 volts.
>
> So, my questions: Am I right in thinking that my controller is
> malfunctioning if I'm not seeing pack voltage at the motor during Wide
> Open Throttle? If my motor is never seeing anything above 115 volts,
> wouldn't this explain why the Jeep has a lousy (~55 mph) top speed right
> now (because voltage greatly affects the amount of HP I'm getting)?
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Salut Philippe,
Could you share with us the names of those two French companies that have
announced lithium EVs for 2006 and the specific car models? Are you talking
about two of the French majors like Renault/Peugot and/or Citroen? Do you
have any web links in either English or French for those announcements?
Do you happen to know which lithium batts they will be using? I assume
probably Saft's VL li-ion modules, right?
I'm assuming that because, first, Saft is a French company, and second, they
are the leading EV battery maker in Europe. I read on Saft's website that
9,500 of the 11,000 mass-produced EVs currently on the road in Europe use
Saft batteries.
I also read on Saft's website that they are supplying their li-ions for a
new EV to be produced by Dassault/Heuliez company SVE which will have a
range of 200 km city and 150 km highway with a top speed of 130 km/hr. But
it seems that this EV is destined primarily for government fleet use and not
for consumer retail sales. Also, I wasn't aware of Dassault being an
automaker. I thought they were primarily a defense and aerospace
manufacturer of things like fighter jets. Is this one of the lithium EVs
coming out in 2006 that you were referring to?
Speaking of Saft, as long as you guys are comparing Valence and
Thunder-Sky's li-ions, we might as well throw Saft into the mix and include
them in that comparison. Price-wise, last I heard, TS was around $300/kWh
for volume purchases and Valence around $1,300/kWh. Philippe, do you (or
anyone else on the list) happen to know Saft's price/kWh for their VL li-ion
modules?
As for cycle life (all to a 80% DoD), TS claims 500 cycles, but from what I
recall reading on this list of people's various experiences with TS cells,
you'd have to be pretty lucky to actually realize that 500 cycle life, or at
minimum have a very well implemented BMS and charging system (which it seems
doesn't yet exist as experts like Victor and Jukka are still experimenting
and in the process of perfecting their own BMS and charging regimes for TS).
So it seems like somewhere between 100 and 300 cycles might be a more
reasonable expectation for TS cycle life, at least at this particular point
in time, based on everything I've read.
Valence, on the other hand, *claims* a 2,000 cycle life, but there doesn't
seem to be much of anything in the way of real-world, independent field
testing to verify Valence's bench test claims.
Saft claims a 1,500 cycle life for its VLE li-ion cells used in its VL
module (6 cells to a module). On their website, Saft claims that "the
company's lithium-ion batteries have been selected for the electric and
hybrid demonstration vehicles of most European and American manufacturers.
More than 500,000 kilometres have been successfully covered in the framework
of these programmes." This is the first time I have heard this. I haven't
seen any acknowledgement or report of this anywhere else, although I guess
virtually all automakers would naturally be very secretive about such li-ion
R&D programs, for many obvious reasons, one being that they wouldn't want
the public to even know about such efforts with li-ions in the first place,
because once they (the automakers) and later us (the public), through leaks,
find out what great extended ranges they provide (e.g. 150, 200, 250+
miles), it would end up killing their ICE cash-cow, which they obviously
want to milk right up until the last moment when we're already a quarter of
the way down the backside of the global Hubbert curve and the whole
petro/ICE paradigm finally becomes no longer bearable or tenable at $250+
oil, at which point they will then, and only then, finally, reluctantly,
have to give up the goose, and voila, magically unveil their lithium EVs,
like pulling a rabbit out of a hat, or the Wizard of Oz pulling strings from
behind the screen. Anyway, that was a bit of a digression, but what I meant
to say is that if we can believe this statement from Saft, then there would
seem to be ample real-world, independent, field-test verification (500,000
kms worth!) of Saft's 1,500 cycle life claim, although this is not really so
verifiable for us (the public) since all of the major automakers are so
secretive about it and won't even confirm that they have done such li-ion
R&D testing, much less that they have been using Saft's li-ion modules.
These bastards are as bad as the tobacco companies, who of course all knew
of the conclusive cancer causing link as far back as the 50s from all the
highly secretive, extensive research that they had done for decades but kept
under tight wraps and which the public didn't find out about until the 80s.
We really need some Jeffry Wigands inside the auto industry! But alas, yet
another digression.
Anyway, Philippe, since you are there in France, I'm wondering if you can
shed any light or insight into this statement from Saft, on the theory that
French automakers might be a bit more open and less secretive on the subject
of li-ions since they (the French) seem to be the only automakers in the
world that have actually been making and selling commercially mass-produced,
highway-capable electric cars, so one would think that they might actually
be proud of this accomplishment and want to tout and brag about their
advanced R&D efforts in this area. Do you, or anyone else on this list,
have any experience with Saft li-ions, or do you know of anyone else or
particular companies that have? Is this claim of a 1,500 cycle life
credible?
More specifically, have you yourself ever gotten a hold of a few Saft VL
modules or VLE cells and done the kind of experimenting on them that you
suggest others should do with TS li-ions (as I believe
Saft li-ions have been available for a few years now)?
We need standard repeatable torture test so:
for exemple: take 4 cells together to make something similar "12V" battery
and discharge 1C then charge C/3 and then record, count, mesure...
With 1H pause, its 4 to 5 cycle per day, 2 month would be sufficient to
have
usable data and tell if yes or not TS cells are good batteries to support
or
something still too expansive for kWh it gives.
We have this data for all EV batteries we use, i'm disappointed than after
1
year more world availability, still no such cycling data on TS cells is
coming :^(
As for BMS, Saft and Valence both provide an integrated BMS, while TS does
not, nor do they provide much guidance on how to do it yourself (basically
you're on your own), as I understand it.
In terms of thermal management, the Valence modules don't need any, while
Saft's VL modules are liquid cooled, just like their NiCds, and I gather
that EVers have had reasonably good experiences with this, as I have heard
from some former Th!nk drivers. I would think that the TS cells probably
should have some sort of active thermal management system (since, like
Saft's, they are subject to the risk of thermal runaway if they slip or are
pushed too far outside their prescribed operating envelope), but apparently
they don't, as I understand it.
I would greatly appreciate from EVers any answers to my questions raised
above as well as general feedback on this topic and/or corrections to
anything I might have gotten wrong above.
Je vous remercie.
Enfin, je vous souhaite tous une bonne annee et les meilleures chances avec
touts vos projets vehiculaires electriques dans la nouvelle annee!
(Hope I didn't mangle that too badly. It's been a long time since I've used
my rusty old francais!)
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
Yes but like Victor finally accepted to say about TS cells ;^)
it works in THIS particular application.
We need standard repeatable torture test so:
I'm still waiting to see what give "good ones" TS cells under Madman
battery
cycler hands...
for exemple: take 4 cells together to make something similar "12V" battery
and discharge 1C then charge C/3 and then record, count, mesure...
With 1H pause, its 4 to 5 cycle per day, 2 month would be sufficient to
have
usable data and tell if yes or not TS cells are good batteries to support
or
something still too expansive for kWh it gives.
imho an EV battery MUST be happy at 1C discharge rate because its the
usual
EV discharge rate (100ah battery)
Otherwise you are trying to juice an electric Humwee with AA cells, needs
a
lot of them in serie and/or parallel to keep voltage high and current
low...though well done it will work for sure, the gain/cost ?
We have this data for all EV batteries we use, i'm disappointed than after
1
year more world availability, still no such cycling data on TS cells is
coming :^(
We have an rEVolution coming in France, two company have announced lithium
EV for 2006, will see if this happen.
Just question of time...
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I'm the proud owner of another EV! It's a yellow three wheeler, weighs about
7000 lbs.,
has four Prestolite motors, is front wheel drive, and runs off of nearly 2000
lbs. of
flooded cells.
See Ya........John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got pictures?
How high does it go?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 10:46 PM
Subject: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm the proud owner of another EV! It's a yellow three wheeler, weighs
about 7000 lbs.,
> has four Prestolite motors, is front wheel drive, and runs off of nearly
2000 lbs. of
> flooded cells.
>
> See Ya........John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those exiting holes should only be CCW advanced and neutral. John Wayland
added the CW holes on my 8" and set it up for me before shipping it. It
replaced my XP-1263 which unfortunately was completely destroyed by being
set to neutral. Don't get this wrong or you will end up with results like
this:
http://www.geocities.com/evalbum/fireball/fireball.html
This damage was repaired, but the timing problem was not recognized so it
simply happened again. This time I took it to a motor shop where they ran
it on 104 volts with no load and all the bolts removed. It flung itself to
bits. They refused to accept responsibility. I should have taken them to
court, but I didn't and then they went out of business anyway. I still
have the remains, but both end bells are ruined, the comm basically
exploded, the brush rigging is in fragments, and even the field coils were
damaged. Maybe someday I will find someone to rebuild it, but I suspect it
would cost almost as much as a new motor.
Basically, don't get this wrong! You MUST add the extra advance
holes. The bolts are special self-tapping units, so you don't have to tap
them.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Why day dream. Cedric's bike is a project anyone with welding skills could
> do. It is light and efficient. It is very funky but functional. I'm sure
> you could do the same with an enclosed Honda 90 or 50 body or make your own
> scooter based recumbent. Like this
> http://www.voidstar.com/bff/images/recped.jpg Just take a battery box and
> weld a front and rear suspension on and a full streamliner fairing.
> Lawrence Rhodes.........
No way I could cob together something like that; my eLamby is a project long in
the works due to my trouble doing mechanical stuff, combined with a great
dislike for the fact that my output *always* looks funky, and I hate funky. I'd
need the bucks to pay someone else to do the work; the low height and
semi-recumbent seat position require a custom frame [e.g.- 9" cross-section
allows a long stack of Kokam 40Ah li-polys], while the body uses kitplane
construction (ever seen the VariEZ or BD5?) that takes skills totally different
from those of a welder. Now add on the truely wishful points, like an AC wheel
motor for power (but even an Etek on the swingarm would fulfill this dream!)
Wonder if Rev. Gadget has a pew for those kind of prayers...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Got pictures?
>
> How high does it go?
>
> Joe Smalley
Considering it's John, you've got to figure it's good for at least one story,
maybe more - he's gotta stack 'em pretty high to make room...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratz.
Forklift?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing to consider, before building a vehicle with lever steering, is
the relationship between linear movement of the driver's hands and the
angular movement of the wheel(s). Lever steering works fine for low
speed vehicles (like a Bobcat mini tractor) but I think you'll find that
in order to slow the steering rate down enough to prevent you from
zig-zagging down the road at highway speeds, you'll need 6 foot long
levers and really long arms. ;-) Think of it this way: a typical car
takes ~ 3 revolutions of the steering wheel to go from lock to lock. If
you multiply the circumference of the steering wheel times 3 revolutions,
that's the equivalent linear distance that your steering lever ends would
have to move to have the same steering rate....
We were discusing a motorcycle here and I take it you don't ride.
Steering inputs, above walking pace, are tiny in terms of angular movement;
It's more a matter of pressure.
Lever steering has been tried on motorcycles, but it feels wrong. The two
hand controls should move around a common pivot with an axis no more than
about 45 degrees from vertical.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thunder-Sky lists 3.9kg for their LMP100AHA [what's the difference between
this
cell and the LCP100AHA model at 3.0kg?], so it must include BMS and
interconnects. What is his charger? He needs ~76V end-of-charge/30A
overall.
ThunderSky have been mucking around with their model designations and specs.
lately. Cedric is using TS-LP8581A cells at 3Kg each. His charger is a Zivan
K2 (nom. 48v) from when he had Optimas in the bike. He's got the output of
an opto-isolator connected accross the voltage contro pot to allow voltage
limiting on a per-cell basis. Likewise the Brusa controller is prevented
from under or over-charging any cell.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Charles, all
> Could you share with us the names of those two French companies that have
> announced lithium EVs for 2006 and the specific car models?
Sure:
Bollore company is developping his own EV car to advertise his Lithium Métal
Polymer batteries, just google for "Batscap"
few details in french on my webpages:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=19
and you are right on second:
SVE (dassault/heuliez) which made the "Cleanova" and "Cleanova II".
One is BEV, other is hybrid gridable, both are based on PSA little van
(Partner/berlingo) and supposed to use Saft Li-ion.
Heuliez was/his the maker of all the PSA EV so they are aware.
You're right about Dassault family company but they clearly want adding EV
business activity.
Yes they will sell to fleet use...at first ;^)
Last quote i had for SAft li-ion VL is about $4500 kwh at low numbers
(cheaper if mass producted) but not sold to individual just OEM so yes i'm
in France but still impossible for me to have only one VL cell :^(
When SAft say 1500 cycle you can trust them, same for capacity, they say
100Ah at C/3 for STM series (nicad) but user obtain near 105Ah at 1C :^)
It's a French production company so it MUST respect French/european law on
advertisement/quality/waranty of their products.
Nothing to compare with china based production, this (and employe cost)
explain Saft price too.
Lithium technologie batteries will became next petrol equivalent so don't
expect having much information about it...
France have few EV on roads BUT don't want to make advertisement for
them...at the moment.
> Enfin, je vous souhaite tous une bonne annee et les meilleures chances
avec
> touts vos projets vehiculaires electriques dans la nouvelle annee!
> (Hope I didn't mangle that too badly. It's been a long time since I've
used
> my rusty old francais!)
>
> Charles
Sorry for my mangle your is near perfect ;^)
happy new year, hoping all of you are (or will) living and driving happily
electric.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
> Salut Philippe,
>
Are you talking
> about two of the French majors like Renault/Peugot and/or Citroen? Do you
> have any web links in either English or French for those announcements?
>
.................................................
.................................................
> Enfin, je vous souhaite tous une bonne annee et les meilleures chances
avec
> touts vos projets vehiculaires electriques dans la nouvelle annee!
> (Hope I didn't mangle that too badly. It's been a long time since I've
used
> my rusty old francais!)
>
> Charles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you going to put a zilla in it? What is it's top speed? What on
earth are you going to _do_ with it?!?
>> Got pictures?
>>
>> How high does it go?
>>
>> Joe Smalley
>
> Considering it's John, you've got to figure it's good for at least one
> story,
> maybe more - he's gotta stack 'em pretty high to make room...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fields of Savonius rotors poking above green roofs, spinning pancakes,
powering the Morlocks below. Or maybe Teletubies.
At least I would hope to power my little PEV this way.
LocK
--- Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe they could put up some wind power on the roof,
> cheaper than PV. I think it's also important to produce
> or collect renewable power, conservation isn't enough.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> >>> And planting flowers on the roof of a factory? Oh please, give
> us a break!
> >
> >> As I recall Ford has 100s of acres of plant roof.
> >> You rather see this as solid Asphalt???
> >>
> >> It also save him Kilobucks in heating and cooling cost.
> >
> > And it retains stormwater rather than just letting it drain all at
> once,
> > which means no (or fewer) retention ponds, or less of a surge if
> there
> > were no ponds before.
> >
> > I'm not knocking solar panels, either, but there's value in doing
> this.
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
