EV Digest 3998
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: wire cutting machine (OT)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVLN(Bricklin 2005: Chinese cars)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: About to purchase batteries
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: About to purchase batteries
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: wire cutting machine
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(EV builder: Castro, among Mosul dead)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(CM-Sparrow: EV plant land sold off)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Power steering...wahoo!!
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ampabout: What are those for? Another Ampabout!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Long Range EV Ideas
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: TS cell info
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) I have only one word for you, was Re: Long Range EV Ideas
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: More EV ideas
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Controller overvoltage headroom, Re: TS cell info
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Cedric's bike
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: (OT)Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: wire cutting machine (OT)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: About to purchase batteries
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: DIY Controller? (DIY Motor)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:57 PM 2/01/05 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Can't comment on why but I need a lot of little wires. Using solid brass
22gauge. Not coated. No stripping. Simplist machine possible & yes I
found a 6rpm geared down cap start unit. I just need a cutter and someway
to actuate it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
Hi Lawrence (and all)
Being brass I guess it is hard and should cleave easily enough, I assume
round wire (not square or rectangular?) the issues that I would think you
need to look at are as follows:
Assuming that it comes on a spool, does it spring straight when it comes
off the spool? bonus if it does, since you can use the stuck-out length
against a mechanical stop to measure it (drive it out with a friction drive
until it hits a mechanical stop, then trigger the cutter). If it doesnt
spring straight, you may still be able to drive it against a stop, but
through a guideway to stop it from curving off, although you may need to
add an ejector.
Next assumption, that it is hard enough to cleave cleanly, you could have a
set of jaws made and hardened for a hand cropper - I don't know what the
American name is for this tool, but it is a bench-mounted hand-operated rod
and flat-bar shear for mild steel and similar bar up to 10mm or so diameter
(great if you need to make up a stack of buss-bars for an EV battery pack).
the rod is pushed through a hole that is in both jaws that is a reasonably
neat fit to its diameter, then the cropper handle is pulled down, shearing
the rod. It would be possible to solenoid or compressed-air operate one of
these tools, or try used machinery dealers to see if they have a pneumatic
one ready made. Drive the wire through with a friction drive that will slip
once the wire hits the stop, drive the cutter on a cyclic timer, with the
time set to slightly longer than the feed time. The stop may need to be
moving as well, to allow the cropped part to be pushed clear.
It would be good to have the drive stop once the cutter is stroked down, so
there is no side-thrust on the cutter as it comes back up, restart the
drive once up (an electric clutch is good for this). A good source dor a
lot of drive parts, clutches etc is big old photocopiers.
Of course if you use pneumatic, you need an air compressor etc., which adds
other issues.
Rather than me keep waffling on with ideas, how do these concepts fit with
what you need to do?
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yah, I like the steel mast block idea (we always used wood). Those and a
safety chain to keep the mast from tilting and you got it whipped. Sounds
like a great machine and an awesome deal. My last forklift got stolen from
in front of my shop one night (believe it or not) while I had the engine out
to replace the shuttle torque converter and I really miss it. Once you pull
or install an engine or even a big motor with a fork lift and a screw type
balance bar you will wonder how you ever did without it. Have fun, David C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
Hello to All,
Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree wrote:
Hi-
Walking under a load on a forklift is a bad thing. We once had a 3,000
lb.
panel saw fall 4ft. before you could blink when the pressure hose to the
lift side
of the cylinder broke.
I bet that thing really squirted hydraulic fluid everywhere!
Garage lifts have mechanical dogs that prevent this.I don't
know if newer forklifts have this function or not.
Good point. Whenever we work under the mast area, we 'always' block and
chain everything.
It's pretty easy to block the inner mast rails with 4 X 4's on each side
secured within
the mast channel. For my car lifting around here, I'll make up custom
square tube steel
mast rail blocks. The motto when working around forklifts, is safety
first, period. The
first time I had to jack up a 9000 lb. Crown lift truck then stick my head
under the power
unit, all I could think about, was my head squishing like a grape! We use
wide heavy solid
rubber pads about 4 inches thick and place four of them under the power
unit stacked two
high...it's very safe and secure that way, and nearly impossible for them
to fail in any
way.
My forklift has nearly new ram seals, fittings, and hoses. The mast stubs
and rollers are
also in great shape.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if he can still get me a Subaru 360? Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:55 PM
Subject: EVLN(Bricklin 2005: Chinese cars)
EVLN(Bricklin 2005: Chinese cars)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/02/B04-47241.htm
Sunday, January 2, 2005
Malcolm Bricklin: From hardware stores to Chinese car imports
1939: Malcolm Bricklin is born in Philadelphia
1958-59: Bricklin attends University of Florida-Gainesville.
1960s: Bricklin founds Handyman hardware stores in Orlando. The
stores are later sold and Bricklin begins selling Lambretta
motor scooters for the Innocenti company and buys a motor
scooter franchise in Boston. He also begins distributing Fuji
Rabbit Scooters in Canada.
1968: Innocenti goes out of business and Japan's Fuji Heavy
Industries discontinues the Rabbit, prompting Bricklin to
visit Japan to convince the company to reverse plans.
1969: With an investment of $75,000, Subaru of America is founded
by Bricklin to import Subaru cars from Japan. Subaru starts
out with 30 dealers along the East coast and 60 in
California.
1971: Bricklin leaves Subaru to build his own car, the Bricklin,
a gull-winged sports car. To land plant, Canada's
struggling New Brunswick province provides $20 million in
start-up funds and $1 million for plant. There were about
2,875 Bricklins built before output was stopped because of
legal and financial woes.
1985: Bricklin begins importing Yugo.
1995: Bricklin forms an electric vehicle company and markets an
electric bike known as the EV Warrior through 1997.
2002: Plans are announced by Bricklin to import another
Yugoslavian-made car -- the ZMW from Zastava Motor Works.
2004: Visionary Vehicles is formed to import Chinese-made
vehicles.
2005: With backing from investment banking giant Allen & Co.,
Bricklin unveils plans to export Chinese-made small car to
the United States as early as 2007.
Sources: Detroit News research, Visionary Vehicles
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you get the DEKA batteries, make sure they all have the same date
code. Then put them on float at 13.6v for a week to make sure they are
all topped up. Heck keep them all on float until you assemble the pack.
You have a thermal management system and the proper charge profile,
right? (the two best ways to ensure success/failure of the batteries)
Seth
On Jan 3, 2005, at 1:59 AM, EAA-contact wrote:
Don,
How about Optima 51's:
+ AGM
+ 41 ah
+ 26 lb each, 728 lbs for 28 (336v nominal pack)
+ list price $3920 (http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/)
BR,
Ed Thorpe
--- On Sun 01/02, Don Cameron wrote:
After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two batteries:
Hawker Genesis G42EP
* VRLA AGM
* 42 Amp Hour
* 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
* $3700 for the pack
* AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
* AGM delivers power - no problem
* 500 lifecycles
* AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
Deka Dominator 8G34
* VRLA Gel
* 60 Amp Hours
* 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
* $3000 for the pack
* Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with a
BMS
* These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of
success
* Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for
high
voltage AC
* 500-900 lifecycles
* Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they just
are too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing. Group 24 or 34 DEKA? Either way, at 40 lbs, definitely
keep the peak current below 200A, not 250A. 500A at 336V (two and a
half times that 200A limit) will push full sized schoolbuses up to
highway speed. I didn't see what vehicle this is going in, but a
180-200A current limit should be plenty at first, if you want range and
pack life. A 28 module pack that gets out of balance is an absolute
trainwreck. By not abusing the pack, you stand a much better chance of
it never happening. Until you know what you are doing (and the pack is
doing!), keep the DOD small. If for no other reason, to see ifyou have
a bad module that you can replace after a few short cycles. If the pack
does go out of balance, then the only real remedy is a TOTAL pack
replacement. Otherise, it will be a matter of nursing modules
endlessly.
Seth
On Jan 3, 2005, at 1:59 AM, EAA-contact wrote:
Don,
How about Optima 51's:
+ AGM
+ 41 ah
+ 26 lb each, 728 lbs for 28 (336v nominal pack)
+ list price $3920 (http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/)
BR,
Ed Thorpe
--- On Sun 01/02, Don Cameron wrote:
After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two batteries:
Hawker Genesis G42EP
* VRLA AGM
* 42 Amp Hour
* 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
* $3700 for the pack
* AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
* AGM delivers power - no problem
* 500 lifecycles
* AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
Deka Dominator 8G34
* VRLA Gel
* 60 Amp Hours
* 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
* $3000 for the pack
* Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with a
BMS
* These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of
success
* Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for
high
voltage AC
* 500-900 lifecycles
* Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they just
are too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you were to use a 1 inch diameter pipe and wrap it
a hundred times, you would end up with 100 aprox. 3"
wires when cut in straight line. At 22 guage a
standard Stanley knife will spit them off. A Straight
slit down the pipe would make a good straight egde for
the cut.
For a 6" use a 2" diameter pipe. They will be a little
big but in my industry a little bigger is better than
too short. That won't strip them but you only asked
about cutting.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you can figure out the circumference and all
> that, you could wrap the wire around a tube and use
> a bandsaw to snip the windings, leaving specific
> lengths.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
>
>
> Would only have to do a few thousand a month at
> most it could be very slow
> 50 an hour at most and it doesn't have to be on
> while work is done. This is
> a low volume affair but cutting thousands of
> pieces is still time consuming
> on a monthly basis. If you know of a low volume
> unit fine but it looks like
> I'm making my own if it costs 10k. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
>
>
> > Laughter aside
> >
> > Lawerence..
> > T&B makes production cut and prep machines
> that do this.
> > Thomas and Betts.
> > Heart Interface had one in the 90s when I was
> contracting with Damon
> > Crockett. This is WAY last Decade type stuff.
> >
> > But...
> > You asked, you now have data crumbs to
> follow.
> > They were in the 10K$ range, and made 1000s of
> custom precision cut and
> > stripped wire a pieces a hour. This is real
> heavy production wire harness
> > equipment.
> >
> > I find a bored EE from the Navy, works very
> well...
> >
> > how many pieces???
> > and what would you be willing to pay??? in cent
> each or Bucks per
> > hundreds.
> >
> > The new year is here...
> > I am off to digikey and Mouser land to spend my
> money for the month....
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Klingensmith"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
> >
> >
> >> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is there such a machine that will cut 22
> gauge wire to different
> >> > specified length from 3 to 6 inches? It
> doesn't have to be precision
> >> > maybe with in .050 inch. Thanks in advance
> for any info. Lawrence
> >> > Rhodes..........
> >> > Lawrence Rhodes
> >> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> >> > Book 4/5 doubler
> >> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > 415-821-3519
> >>
> >> A teenager?
> >> Sorry couldn't resist.
> >> I don't know of any machine you could buy
> easily, but you could rig
> >> something up with some wheels and a solenoid:
> >> Wheel connected to trip a microswitch at set
> intervals of rotation,
> >> firing a solenoid with a cutter attached.
> >> Add a rotary encoder and an MCU to make it
> significantly more fancy.
> >>
> >> Just trying to help, that's what I'd do if I
> had to make over 1,000
> > pieces.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Martin K
> >> http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
> >>
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:58 AM
Subject: EVLN(EV builder: Castro, among Mosul dead)
Hi EVerybody;
The Iraq Tragedy is touching home, in more ways than one." Bush
lied-People died:" bumper sticker I saw the other day takes on more meaning.
one of ours has died trying to make Oil $afe for democracy, or keep it
flowing. I hope there aren't any other Listers in Harm's Way over there.
Between the Iraq thing and the Tsumai disaster in Asia, were off to a rather
poor start to the new year,sigh..Maybe a few Battery breakthroughs and
promising EV startup Co's can cheer us up, a bit.As well as cancelling the
40 million bux Prez Party Bash this Jan , pass it on for disaster relief in
Asia? Just a thought, suggestion.
Many wishes for the best of the New Year, dispite that all your cars and
trucks are ANOTHER year older!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 12:57 AM
Subject: EVLN(CM-Sparrow: EV plant land sold off)
> EVLN(CM-Sparrow: EV plant land sold off)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/Business/Headlines/03BusinessBIZ09122304.htm
>
> Business briefs Last update: December 23, 2004 Land planned for
> electric car plant sold.
> Hey! That reminds me: Didn't ITT of Korea buy land somewhere, too, to
build an EV car, maybe their Parade Minivan? Big hu ha then nothing, too bad
THAT one showed promise.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
is it hooked straight to 12v or did you have to use some kind of computer
controlled boxes ,
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:19 PM
Subject: Ampabout: What are those for?
Snip-a-bit
> > We both went in as the cloud burst poured down hard.
> Hi Bruve;
Great story! Thanks for sharing it with us! Good to see that yu're on
the mend and NEW cells coming your way!! Nice to see all your usual newsy
posts!!
> Well, I am an Army of one, doing my part to fight Big Oil, reduce
> my part in causing this wacky weather (global climatic changes),
> and to show the death-grip automakers have around our necks (one
> type of car that "only" runs on petrol).
>
Army of two or more! I took the Rabbit to work the other day, after about
a weeks hiatus, waiting for the snow and related slop on the roads to
disipate, and it to warm up to a tropical mid thirties<g>! Pumped the tires
back up to 55psi to try to cut down on rolling resistance. I ride bycycles,
and KNOW what a differance a soft tire or two can make! Had changed out two
weak T 105's from the pack, and after a few local trips was ready to do the
BIG one, to work, 26 miles mostly turnpike running, constant 150-200 amp
going. Made it OK but the pack was very soft! down to 90 volts. But after
arrival, they did perk up to 120 volts, so UI hadn't reversed any ,like
before, the ones I weeded out LAST week.12 hours later, back again, yes,
Sunday is one of my longwinded trips, to NYC AND Boston in two sittings. Car
was nice and juicy for the return flight, turned on the heat, and came home
on the nice quiet back roads, at 1 am, setting my own pace.Same thing, but a
bit more soup in the cells, not quite the voltage drop, of before. I might
go electric today, as it isnt that cold. Cooler weather knocks the shit out
of the range, but if I drive EVery day it helps, batteries stay warm, help
to heat the garage a bit, or the exhaust from the PFC 20's fan. When I get
it built in, I plan to duct it in the cabin to preheat the car in the
winter.Gunna tear the car down for cosmetic bodywork and steering wrack
replacment to get THAT rattle out of the car,and a few rearrangments of
components to get the PFC 20 aboard.Go through ALL the running gear. Shocks,
etc.
Local fellow just got a writeup ,one town over, Guilford, CT among the
stuff he is doing, restoring old firetrucks, and cars. In passing the
reporter commented that he wanted to do an electric sports car. I have been
trying to contact the guy, can't let him do it alone! He hasta know that he
ISN'T alone in doing EV's There are guyz out there unListed, doing EV's on
their own. Scary thought, facing the EV challange, nobody to ask of, laugh
and cry with. Our New Years resolution, to find these folks and welcome them
into the fraturnity!!
Stay Tuned
Seeya
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Catching up on email after being gone for over a week....
I have noticed that the Chevy S-10 Blazer has about the same wheelbase and
track as many kit cars. Thus my thoughts, if I had time and money, would be
to find an llight, aerodynamic kit car and adapt it to the truck chassis.
Yank everything off the chassis until you had just the frame and suspension
with transmission and rear end, then mount the body to it. Should be very
light with enormous battery weight capacity. Should be able to get well
over 50% battery weight in such a setup.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, MD
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Long Range EV Ideas
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:01:24 -0600
Hi folks,
I keep dreaming up ideas for EVs that I will never get around to building,
but I thought I might share some of these daydreams and see what you folks
think.
1. Big Pack Kit Car:
Build a custom from steel box tubing, patterned after a VW Beetle pan, but
based on heavier suspension components from say a VW bus. As part of the
frame, build in supports for 4 battery packs for standard GC2 golf cart
batteries. 8 batteries in front of the from axle, 10 in front of the rear
axle above the transmission, and 4 on each side of the motor behind the
rear axle. Total 26 batteries. With T-145s this would amount to 1846
pounds of batteries, a very weighty pack. Add a 9" Advanced and a baby
Zilla, with say a PFC-50 for charging. Also add one of those slick
automatic watering systems. Now, top it off with a Kelmark GT kit car body
modified to add a flip-up front for accessing the front pack. The Kelmark
already has dual rear hatches that could be used to access the rear battery
pack or a flip-up could be built here as well. Each battery pack would be
enclosed in a fiberglass box with ventilation fans. At something like 3500
to 3800 pounds, the resulting EV would not be a stellar performer on
acceleration, but the range would be outstanding. Assuming 175-200 Watt
hours per mile at 60 mph, a highway range of 100-120 miles seems at least
possible.
2. Plug-in Hybrid Pickup:
Pretty much a standard pickup conversion except that no batteries would be
installed under the hood. Instead there would be a 8 to 10KW genset,
either off the shelf or custom assembled from perhaps a modified 3 phase
motor and a small 10 to 15 hp gas engine. Again I like the idea of a 144
or 156 volt system to get the performance up a bit while still using the
forgiving golf cart batteries. To fit this many batteries may mean
sacrificing some if not all the cargo space in the bed. The result would
be an EV with good range and the ability to extend that range as needed.
Substituting about an equal weight of AGMs should result in about the same
range without the watering hassles and with much better performance, but
would require some sort of battery management system.
So, crazy or do-able, or already been done?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< 14 cells fully charged at nearly 60V, instead of the usual 56V, would be too
high a voltage for many 48V controllers such as my SRE unit. >>
Wow, glad I read your post! The 4QD controller in my eLamby could handle 15
li-ion cells without hesitation, and I was looking at a 48V SRE unit from
cloudelectric.com for another scooter, but if it has such little voltage
headroom, I won't do it. By the way, 4QD lists a 68V absolute max for their
latest/largest 48V model, and 72V for the Scoota, which is a good choice for
(dare I say it) scooters!
This scooter currently has a 225A (probably uses 10-20% of the rating) GolfTech
controller but I was hoping to add regen to help with weak OEM brakes. Curtis
lists 64V OVL for the PM model (which retails for more than the 4QD
equivalent), but I can't find the official word on series models.
One thing about li-ions, when you take them off the charger, the voltage doesn't
drop anything like it does with PbAc, so it's more "what you see is what you
get". Don't know how this would effect OVL in a controller with regen, but the
voltage doesn't have to go over 4.2V/cell to get them fully charged.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have noticed that the Chevy S-10 Blazer has about the same wheelbase and
> track as many kit cars. Thus my thoughts, if I had time and money, would be
> to find an llight, aerodynamic kit car and adapt it to the truck chassis.
...the word is not plastics, it's rodster (dot com)!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
johnk wrote:
> What about using a cap-bank in between the batteries and controller?
Pretty much all controllers already have a big capacitor bank on their
inputs. It's there to reduce noise and so the batteries don't have to
provide the high peak currents as the controller switches on/off.
Increasing the size of this capacitor bank arbitrarily wouldn't really
add anything. The voltage on a capacitor has to change for it to
charge/discharge. Batteries are basically a constant-voltage source, and
so fight any voltage change. Thus, the capacitors never really store or
return any energy.
For capacitor energy storage to work, you need a separate DC/DC
converter. During charging, it converts the constant voltage from AC
power, batteries or generator into a variable capacitor voltage, 0 to
max. During discharging, it converts the variable capacitor voltage to
whatever voltage is needed by the motor/controller. This is an expensive
extra bit of hardware.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I was refering to an SRE SC325 900 Amp programmable controller. I don't
know if other models have similar over-voltage limits. This limit is
probably set as one of its safety features. Lots of parameters could be
re-programmed, like low battery cut-off, but I didn't see this one in the
manual.
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: TS cell info
<< 14 cells fully charged at nearly 60V, instead of the usual 56V, would
be too
high a voltage for many 48V controllers such as my SRE unit. >>
Wow, glad I read your post! The 4QD controller in my eLamby could handle
15
li-ion cells without hesitation, and I was looking at a 48V SRE unit from
cloudelectric.com for another scooter, but if it has such little voltage
headroom, I won't do it. By the way, 4QD lists a 68V absolute max for
their
latest/largest 48V model, and 72V for the Scoota, which is a good choice
for
(dare I say it) scooters!
This scooter currently has a 225A (probably uses 10-20% of the rating)
GolfTech
controller but I was hoping to add regen to help with weak OEM brakes.
Curtis
lists 64V OVL for the PM model (which retails for more than the 4QD
equivalent), but I can't find the official word on series models.
One thing about li-ions, when you take them off the charger, the voltage
doesn't
drop anything like it does with PbAc, so it's more "what you see is what
you
get". Don't know how this would effect OVL in a controller with regen, but
the
voltage doesn't have to go over 4.2V/cell to get them fully charged.
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Don't know why I said 18 cells, Cedric is only using 14 to give him close to
48v nominal.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
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Ummm er.... I doubt 10s...
I would be happy with high 12s.
Prudence says 14s and no busted parts....
10s will take a very well prepped ICE drive train, and more Hp than anyone
of us has made to date.
And that includes Dennis and the Rail dragster guys.
I am bold but not that foolish....
The Ranger with a narrowed 9 incher tube frame rear end, or the
Mustang/Crapie are a much better starting point for real 10 seconds and a
still be street legal. Wayland's White Zombie is a much better bet, Heck I
would lay money on him, not me.
10s is 500 Hp to the wheels, and less than 3000lbs. I don't see that
happening with anything that resembles our current Brushes and UBer amp
racing styles...
Maybe AC and super lightened chassis, and Just enough Hawkers to get the job
done.
I just don't see killer battery packs being given to those of us without
real hardcore Sponsors.
Keep in mind 500 hp and stuffed into a Super comp chassis would be almost
twice the HP that Dennis Berube uses. If I had that kind of Hp in the Can..
I wouldn't
put it into a 85 vintage Fiero.....
The plans for the Fiero are for John Wayland and Otmar to worry about, not
Dennis and Ken and, Eric, and Jim to worry about.
I was working on the Fiero before I went up to Bellingham and worked for
DCP, So... it's been around a while.
I need a chassis that is not rusting out from under the Battery pack, and
revered as a flying Science project...I also wouldn't mind a all weather EV
with some range.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: (OT)Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
> Reverend Gadget:
>
> >Could be... I'm pitching a new show that is based on
> >alternative energy/transportation, renewable
> >resources, and sustainable architecture. I want to do
> >a show that solves problems for people in an
> >environmentally responsible way.
>
> A show of that nature might actually get me to turn on the
> TV again.
>
> Be sure to let us know how it goes.
>
> That would be awesome to air on national television Otmar's
> Porsche leaving a 20-ft. trail of rubber, or Wayland using
> Meanie to dust off a $40k sports car.
>
> Think of the possibilities if Rudman would get his Fiero
> going, and be able to pull 10s with it.
>
> As for sustainable architecture, I'm assuming you intend to
> cover its history as well, with the things Buckminsterfuller
> designed/advocated?
>
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How about a drive unit out of a mig welder (with rubber drive roller) and a
solenoid operated shear (as was previously recommended)? A Cherry
microswitch and a rotary cam (driven off or attached to the drive roller) to
actuate it for control. This is pretty much the same setup I have seen used
by a local company that makes rolled roofing. They run the line at a very
fast speed (like 4-5 seconds per sheet) and of the 12 sheets that I bought
the length variation was less than .125 over 21 feet. I have some of the
above items in stock if you can't find them locally. I would also consider
building this unit for you but you would probably be better off to
design/build it yourself and save $$. David Chapman.
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Just a wild thought: What about using Hawker Cyclons? If you have
about 3 inches of space under the car (or above the floor inside) you
could build a box for a "flat" of them. The new beetle has enough
head room raising the floor 3 inches or so would probably be
workable. Even if you are putting them into the trunk and motor area,
the individual cells will fit like a honeycomb for a bit more
density.
Even wilder, build a flat of Nimh D-cells. You might be able to get
junked ones from Honda and Toyota hybrids cheaper than lead. Careful,
they switched things around a bit, so you'd want to be sure you got
all the same battery types.
The weight would be as low as possible and between the axles. If your
range needs are modest you might not even have to put any batteries
in the motor compartment or trunk.
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After a number of months of investigation, I am about to purchase
> batteries.
> However, I still am unsure of which battery to purchase. Here are
> my vehicle
> specs:
>
> - New Beetle (est. curb weight 3700 lbs)
> - Siemens AC system
> - 312-332 Volts
> - 26-28 batteries
> - Approx 1000 lbs available for batteries
> - Estimate no more that 200 Amp current draw
>
>
> After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two
> batteries:
>
> Hawker Genesis G42EP
> * VRLA AGM
> * 42 Amp Hour
> * 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
> * $3700 for the pack
> * AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
> * AGM delivers power - no problem
> * 500 lifecycles
> * AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
>
>
> Deka Dominator 8G34
> * VRLA Gel
> * 60 Amp Hours
> * 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
> * $3000 for the pack
> * Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with
> a BMS
> * These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of
> success
> * Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for
> high
> voltage AC
> * 500-900 lifecycles
> * Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
>
>
> I really prefer the Gels - in theory. They should provided enough
> power,
> last longer, be less affected by balancing issues, thus being much
> more cost
> effective. But I am concerned that I will simply be buying a
> battery based
> on spec - not reality. I have asked a number of Solectria users
> about
> their Deka Gel batteries and have received all positive feedback.
>
>
> Thoughts? Comments?
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they
> just are
> too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I finally made a battery bridge LED circuit for my Jeep (Thanks for the
schematic, Lee!). I actually have two bridges so each red LED covers 5
of my 20 batteries. I've yet to see any of the red LEDs light... just
the 2 green ones. I know Lee said red LEDs indicate there are reversed
cells in the pack. Could a red LED also indicate dead cells? Some
pictures at: http://www.driveev.com/temp/battleds/
After more test drives, with my digital voltmeter on the battery side
and an analog meter on the motor side of the Raptor 600, I never see
anywhere near the pack voltage to the motor during WOT. I'm seeing
110-112 volts at the motor and 135-140 volts at the batteries during
WOT. This doesn't seem right to me...
Also, If I set the Raptor's current limit pot lower (say to half),
should the behavior of the yellow WOT LED change at all? Also, I'm now
noticing that even with the pot turned all the way up (max current), I
can't pull more than 300 battery amps when I floor it in 1st gear
(whereas I used to be able to peg at 400 amps in 1st). I wonder if this
potentiometer could be bad?
I just wish I had access to a known good Raptor/T-Rex controller that I
could swap in for testing, since I still can't prove if my controller is
at fault or if it is another component or ???
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2004-12-31 at 18:09, I wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Since my last post, I took my 9" Advanced DC motor to a motor shop to
> have the melted field terminal replaced and the motor checked out. The
> shop said the coils and everything looked in great condition, and they
> feel that the melted terminal was the only thing wrong with the motor.
>
> I spent yesterday putting my Jeep back together. Everything is back the
> way it was except that I installed an analog voltmeter across the
> Raptor's Motor+ and Battery- buss. I also removed the ammeter from the
> motor loop and put it back into the battery loop. I charged the
> batteries and went for several test drives.
>
> The first thing I noticed was that the vibration in the drivetrain at
> high motor RPMs (4000+) is now gone. Previously I had done many things,
> including balancing the flywheel/pressure plate assembly with washers to
> try and get rid of the vibration. I discovered when I pulled the motor
> last week that the clutch pilot bearing had fallen out of position
> because the bushing which holds it in the center of the flywheel had
> moved backwards. Before reinstalling the motor, I adjusted the bushing
> such that it and the bearing cannot possibly move. I can no longer feel
> vibration at higher motor RPMs. :-)
>
> That was the good news. The not so great news is that I still think I
> have a problem. Acceleration is still rather lousy. The Jeep does seem
> to have more power now that the bad motor connection is fixed, but it
> still doesn't seem right. That is, I still have to start out in 1st gear
> and have to drive the motor RPMs way up before shifting if I want any
> power. And I still have to floor the throttle a lot to start out or to
> accelerate in any reasonable amount of time.
>
> I did discover something interesting while watching the voltmeter on the
> motor side of the controller as I was driving. The voltage in the motor
> loop NEVER went above 115 volts! In fact, the voltage most of the time
> was always below 105 volts. Even when I had the throttle floored, the
> voltage only went up to 115 volts. If you remember back to my previous
> posts, the WOT light on my controller never lights up with the throttle
> floored UNLESS the motor is at 4300 RPMs or higher. So, as a test, I
> started in 1st from a stop, and floored it in first gear. I kept it
> floored until I hit well into the 5000 RPM range (~33 mph). This means
> that the WOT light on the Raptor was NOT on until the motor hit 4300
> RPMs, when the light then came ON, and stayed on until I released the
> throttle (and the motor RPMs began to drop). This entire time the
> voltage to the motor NEVER went above 115 volts.
>
> So, my questions: Am I right in thinking that my controller is
> malfunctioning if I'm not seeing pack voltage at the motor during Wide
> Open Throttle? If my motor is never seeing anything above 115 volts,
> wouldn't this explain why the Jeep has a lousy (~55 mph) top speed right
> now (because voltage greatly affects the amount of HP I'm getting)?
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of motor would you use? I'm assuming when you say
"inverter" you mean a 3 phase AC motor controller. I had a schematic
at about 80% and a layout at around 40%, then lost steam because I
didn't see a ready source of motors that could be bought. Victor's
metricmind website has siemens water cooled AC motors, but apparently
you need to buy the motors with a controller - you can't just buy a
motor. If you go with an industrial air cooled motor, they start to
get really gigantic.
One can buy a synchronous PM Siemens ACW-80-4 motor separately
without inverter.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> I finally made a battery bridge LED circuit for my Jeep (Thanks
> for the schematic, Lee!)... I've yet to see any of the red LEDs
> light... just the 2 green ones.
That's the way it's supposed to work! If either red one lights, there's
a problem.
> I know Lee said red LEDs indicate there are reversed cells in the
> pack. Could a red LED also indicate dead cells?
A red LED lights where there is more than ~2v difference between the two
half-packs. This can happen with a dead or reversed cell, or because you
are drawing a heavy current and there are large differences in
resistance (loose connections, a bad high-resistance cell), or during
charging when the cells are out of balance (say, one 12v battery is at
15v when the rest are still at 13v).
> After more test drives, with my digital voltmeter on the battery side
> and an analog meter on the motor side of the Raptor 600, I never see
> anywhere near the pack voltage to the motor during WOT. I'm seeing
> 110-112 volts at the motor and 135-140 volts at the batteries during
> WOT. This doesn't seem right to me...
The motor side is not DC; it is a square wave switching between full
pack voltage and zero. This is a difficult waveform for a meter to
indicate accurately because there is such a powerful AC component.
You may have to include an RC filter, or measure the voltage across the
motor armature (which is considerably less noisy due to the inductance
of the field).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really hope you get answers to these questions, because after I get my
transmission issues sorted out, I'll be spending some time doing what you
are doing, to try and understand my Raptor 600...
Thanks,
Steven Ciciora
> Hi,
>
> I finally made a battery bridge LED circuit for my Jeep (Thanks for the
> schematic, Lee!). I actually have two bridges so each red LED covers 5
> of my 20 batteries. I've yet to see any of the red LEDs light... just
> the 2 green ones. I know Lee said red LEDs indicate there are reversed
> cells in the pack. Could a red LED also indicate dead cells? Some
> pictures at: http://www.driveev.com/temp/battleds/
>
> After more test drives, with my digital voltmeter on the battery side
> and an analog meter on the motor side of the Raptor 600, I never see
> anywhere near the pack voltage to the motor during WOT. I'm seeing
> 110-112 volts at the motor and 135-140 volts at the batteries during
> WOT. This doesn't seem right to me...
>
> Also, If I set the Raptor's current limit pot lower (say to half),
> should the behavior of the yellow WOT LED change at all? Also, I'm now
> noticing that even with the pot turned all the way up (max current), I
> can't pull more than 300 battery amps when I floor it in 1st gear
> (whereas I used to be able to peg at 400 amps in 1st). I wonder if this
> potentiometer could be bad?
>
> I just wish I had access to a known good Raptor/T-Rex controller that I
> could swap in for testing, since I still can't prove if my controller is
> at fault or if it is another component or ???
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> ------------
--- End Message ---
