EV Digest 4004
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging in an apartment
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) TS Endplate Thickness
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Charging in an apartment
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: DC to DC question
by James Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fwd: Re: motor mounts
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Orbital SOC - what is full?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) "very important that you allow the battery to gas"?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Planatery gear set
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:10:07 -0700, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It turns out the outlet I used can't dish out the full 20+ amps the PFC
>charger wants. I have to turn the dial down some. If it is all the way
>up, the breaker will pop after about 10 minutes. I even replaced the
>breaker with a new one. It didn't seem to help. I verified that there
>were no other loads on that circuit.
You can safely install a larger breaker. The NEC ampacity tables are
extremely conservative, allowing for extreme conditions such as the wire
being embedded in the insulation in an unvented attic. When the wire is
exposed or buried in earth, much more current can be handled without
overheating. A couple of examples: I routinely conduct in excess of 80
amps through 10 ga wire when feeding my concession stands. The wire is
exposed, laying on the ground. It gets warm but not hot to the touch.
Another example. I make neon as a hobby. The bombarder that heats and
processes the neon tube prior to filling with gas is a 20kva pole
transformer run in reverse. I feed it with a 100 amp 240 volt service.
It is wired with 10-3 stapled to a concrete block wall. The bombarder
pulls a bit more than 100 amps at full load, occasionally tripping the
breaker. Yet the wire barely warms to the touch. The block wall is a
good heat sink.
>
>I wanted a 240V outlet that could easily dish out the 20 amps. My only
>option (and I'm still considering it) is to time share the dryer
>outlet. I'd have a switch that would only allow either the dryer or
>charger to be running at any time. My wife even gave her approval for
>that! I asked since it would require flipping the switch to run the
>dryer.
You can make this switch-over automatic at no more cost than a switch.
Get a suitably rated current type AC compressor starting relay. This
relay has a coil that is wound with just a few turns of heavy wire. It
is designed to cut out the starting winding when the starting current
drops below a certain value. Wire it so that the PFC current flows
through the coil and the dryer current flows through the contact (you may
need a logic reversing relay if you can't find a current relay with a NC
contact). Whenever the PFC is drawing current the dryer circuit is open.
When the PFC turns off the dryer is automatically energized.
This type of relay is available at any motor repair, AC supply or
appliance parts house. Cost should be under $10.
>The main thing that has stopped me from doing that setup is that
>I'd lose my outlet outside. If I had run a 10/4 cable, I think I could
>have tapped 120V off of it.
All you need to do is buy a length of green 10 ga single conductor THHN
type wire and run a ground path along side the 10-3. Cheap and simple.
> I would also have to install a GFCI breaker
>in the breaker box. I would not charge outside without a GFI breaker.
>I've already come close to making a mistake that could zap me good
>without one. No matter how careful you are, you still shouldn't skip
>using viable safety measures.
You know, I've been reading these threads about non-isolated chargers and
I have to say that I'm quite uncomfortable with the concept. A GFI might
save your life but it still permits sufficient current to pass to cause
you to hurt yourself, perhaps fatally if you happen to have a weak heart.
A number of years ago I decided to test a GFI on myself. I was curious
and I had bought off way too much on the propaganda about how well they
work. I was used to testing potentially "hot" conductors by brushing them
with the back of my hand. With good insulated boots and the other hand in
the pocket, one gets a little tingle. On the odd occasion when the boots
are damp or some other ground path exists, the muscle contraction in the
arm jerks the hand away within a cycle or two.
Anyway, I gripped a ground wire against my palm with my little finger and
brushed the GFI-protected hot wire with the back of my hand. It knocked
me on my ars! The GFI tripped but it let through probably a cycle or two.
It felt like someone hit my hand with a baseball bat! I would NOT have
wanted that current to have passed through my body and across my heart.
I'm afraid that if I were using a PFC or other non-isolated charger I'd
have to have an isolation transformer in the circuit. yeah, they're
expensive and bulky but they will save a life or injury. Besides, they're
cheap used/salvage.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are contests to see how fast a team of two people can replace an air
cooled vw engine. I think the record for just removing the gas engine is
under 5 minutes. 4 bolts, gas line, a few wires, and don't forget the
throttle cable :-)
- Steven Ciciora
> I know that removing and replacing a normal (internal combustion) engine
> on a VW Beetle can be done in a couple of hours (or less) with two
> people (mostly for lifting). It simply bolts to the transmission.
>
> Since the electric has less connections, you probably can do it in an
> hour.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, this isn't it. It is a Jet Electra, but unless I have read/heard
wrong the electravan 750 is something more like this:
http://www.eilishoils.com/media/images/eng_pics/ford/courier/ford_courier.jpg
Markus L wrote:
Here is a picture (I think, found it with google):
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum//142.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jarrett
Sent: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2005 10:53
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
Greetings all.
I have just been given the opportunity to purchase 3 Electravan 750s.
They are in the barn of the original owner and have been
there for about
10+ years.
I'm sure the rubber is destroyed and the battery banks MAY be
all rusted
out if the bats have not been removed, but the price is right.
Question 1:
Does anyone have any pictures of what the ElectraVan 750
(Ford Courier
model) looked like? The owner is 76 years old and in poor health and
not in posession of a digtal camera.
Question 2: Assuming these are in decent (or even good) condition, I
really have no need for three of them, I probably need 1.25
(One, and a
few parts from another) I THINK I can get all three of the
for $7,000.
If I could, would anyone else be intereted in purchasing one of them?
How about a group build? Anyone in the NC area willing to go
in and see
if we can't get any/all of these running again for a reasonable cost?
Thanks.
James
Neon John wrote:
This is trivially easy to do with OBD-2 cars (95 and newer,
generally).
Go here http://www.obd-2.com/ and buy one of his gateway products.
"Gateway" is the term applied to the OBD-2/RS-232 smart
cable. The cheap
way out is to select the one for the particular car in
question. A better
but more expensive way is to get a tri-mode or
tri-mode/CANbus gateway.
Then download his free software and fire it off. In
addition to being an
extremely capable diagnostic tool, it is also a datalogger.
In addition
to data logging, it has an additional capability that makes
the task of
MPG calculation simple. This feature is computed variables
whereby one
can write an equation using intrinsic variables to create a
computed one.
Almost exactly like a spreadsheet cell. Without firing up
my copy of the
program and looking, I believe that an MPG variable is one of his
examples.
His software is fully functional without the cable so you
can download it
and play around. He has sample log files on the web site.
Alex Peper probably knows more about OBD-2 than anyone
outside the OEMs.
The advantage is that he can work with you on specific
problems that the
standard software might not address. He's one of those eggheads who
doesn't speak the same language us commoners do so it
sometimes takes a
bit of work to understand what he's saying. Worth the
effort, though.
There are two reasons why there aren't OBD-2-based MPG gauges on the
market, I think. The biggie is that most people just don't
care enough to
spend the money on the gadget. They pick a vehicle that
suits their needs
that sits in the MPG class they care about and then just
drive it. That
even large cars get good mileage today means that unless
one is a road
warrior, one can generally ignore mileage.
The second reason is the insane state of the legal system
these days.
There is a fundamental limitation on how accurate such a
gauge can be
because the behavior of the fuel injector is so variable at
the low open
intervals involved in idle and low throttle angle driving. With the
injector valve in almost constant motion either opening or
closing, the
flow vs open time is ill defined. This behavior is actually modeled
fairly accurately within the PCM for emissions reasons but
that info isn't
available on the OBD-2 data stream.
A related problem is the behavior of the fuel with temperature and
altitude. The mass flow through the injector at a given
delta-P changes
with the viscosity of the fuel and that changes with
temperature. The
mass flow also changes as the delta-P changes with air
density. Again,
this behavior is modeled in the PCM but the information is
not available
to the outside.
What all this adds up to is a computation that would not
agree very well
with the miles-per-tank method of MPG computation. What
happens when Joe
Blow consumer first sees the mis-match? Why, he runs to a
lawyer, the
government or both.
The combo of low demand and high risk of litigation keeps
the things off
the market. Perhaps someday some ChiCom outfit will make
20 million of
the things, channel them into the country through thousands
of mostly
untraceable importers and they'll appear on the flea market
tool tables
along with the screwdrivers that bend when you look at them.
John
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 12:09:05 -0800, Lee Hart
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into
the diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data? Would
that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using
In theory it should. But, I've seen precious few products
that actually
make fuel consumption data available. If it were easy, I
would expect to
see "miles per gallon computers" on the market that do it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm planning my battery boxes and wonder if someone with TS cells could tell
me the thickness (in mm) of the anti-expansion metal plates that are
attached to the end of each string of cells. Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, is the outlet that you're currently plugged into a 120V or 240V? I'm
just thinking that if it's only a 120V, then charging your 144V pack at 20A
DC would draw more than 20A on the AC side.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I worked at a regionally famous VW tuning shop while in college back in
the 70s. There were several shops in town and a contest developed as to
who could do a valve job the quickest. A pair of mechanics from my shop
won. 16 minutes from turning the engine off to cranking it again. Best I
could tell, they did the job correctly too. Most impressive to see one of
the guys just walk up to the engine with the car on a lift and yank it out
and carry it to a bench. My back still hurts thinking about it :-)
John
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:39:56 -0700 (MST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>There are contests to see how fast a team of two people can replace an air
>cooled vw engine. I think the record for just removing the gas engine is
>under 5 minutes. 4 bolts, gas line, a few wires, and don't forget the
>throttle cable :-)
>
>- Steven Ciciora
>
>> I know that removing and replacing a normal (internal combustion) engine
>> on a VW Beetle can be done in a couple of hours (or less) with two
>> people (mostly for lifting). It simply bolts to the transmission.
>>
>> Since the electric has less connections, you probably can do it in an
>> hour.
>>
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure to whom I should be e-mailing this inquiry but, could the
administrator of this site please change my e-mail address to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
Jim Watson
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:52 PM
To: EV-List-Post
Subject: DC to DC question
I'm looking into adding a DC to DC converter to the
truck. I've found a reasonably priced 29 amp unit from
Astrodyne, model SD350D-12 for $129 plus shipping.
Specs are here:
http://www.astrodyne.com/pdf/SD350.pdf It's the D
model on the second page.
The original generator in the truck was only 30 Amps
so I think this unit should be big enough. Is it as
simple as connecting the output through a 30 amp fuse
to the 12V battery and setting it to 13.8V? The input
will connect to the pack after the main contactor so
the DC to DC is out of the circuit when the PFC-20 is
doing its thing. The unit is rated at 350 watts and
claims 83% efficiency, using these numbers I should be
able to get away with a 5 amp fuse on the input. (96V
pack, soon to be upgraded to 120V) I want to make sure
I'm going about this the right way and will be keeping
all the smoke where it belongs.
Thanks,
Tim McCann
Electric '61 Corvair Rampside
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you wanted something a little stiffer than rubber, you could use urethane
(sp?) bushings. They
are usually a high perf upgrade and should be readily available.
Dave Cover
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:33:07 -0800
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: motor mounts
>
> Ben Apollonio wrote:
> > the rubber motor mounts themselves are in very bad shape. Since
> > I don't have to worry about vibration without those stinkin'
> > pistons, do I need the rubber replacements, or can I get away
> > with stacking a few washers?
>
> My ComutaVan had the motor hard-mounted to the frame. It worked just
> fine. The only downside was a little more high frequency "whine" (most
> of which was actually coming from the transmission, which was also
> hard-mounted).
>
> > Also, while I have peoples' attention, any suggestions for waking
> > up some SLA (not AGM or gel) batteries?
>
> I'd just let them warm up, and cycle them a few times.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you sure about the Ford Courier part? I think the Electravan 750 was
Subaru based. It was square, like a VW van, but smaller, like a
microvan. It had a very short wheelbase and narrow track.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the 600 (I thought) if the 750 is also the Subaru, then GREAT!
That's what I wanted in the first palce.
James
Electro Automotive wrote:
Are you sure about the Ford Courier part? I think the Electravan 750
was Subaru based. It was square, like a VW van, but smaller, like a
microvan. It had a very short wheelbase and narrow track.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a picture of the one Mike is talking about at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/011.html
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
Are you sure about the Ford Courier part? I think the Electravan 750 was
Subaru based. It was square, like a VW van, but smaller, like a
microvan. It had a very short wheelbase and narrow track.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pack voltage on the motor IS the definition of WOT. That the LED was not lit
means you still had some more to go.
It now looks like this is all your batteries are going to give...
Still... What is the Maximum Motor loop currrent??? It should be over 600
amps. That's what you paid for...How much over depends on how generous Damon
and Crew were at the tuneup
Time.
I know how these controllers were tuned. And on our test rigs we usually
gave you more than you paid for.
Well, that was true while I was at DCP....
> I don't know if this info is significant in any way, but I found it odd
> that *decreasing* the "max current" setting would cause me to see an
> *increase* in the amount of current I could draw from the batteries, and
> cause me to actually see pack voltage in the motor loop during WOT.
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find that your number are just about right.
But these are open circuit volts, They read about the same Even down to
almost empty. Agm do this. So volts with a load on them matter more.
We ran two cycles on the Orb Stack last night... But I am at my Office not
the production shop...other wise I would read off the values for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Orbital SOC - what is full?
> Hi again,
>
> Can someone that is using Orbitals measure the sitting voltage after a
> full charge and letting the batteries sit for a few hours and report
> back? I want real-life data from a real Orbital.
>
> Please let me know the temperature at the time of measurement, how long
> you let them sit before measuring, and how old the batteries are. I'd
> like to know if the Orbitals are actually 13.0 full, or 12.8'ish. I
> seem to be getting about 12.8, but then I'm just starting to get the
> hang of this whole charging thing.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope;
You got it right.
The 600 is a Subaru microvan conversion by jet industries, there's one on
the tradin' post.
The 750 is an 81 Ford Courier(Mazda) conversion by jet industries, just
like the one you pictured.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of James Jarrett
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:29 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
>
>
> That's the 600 (I thought) if the 750 is also the Subaru, then GREAT!
> That's what I wanted in the first palce.
>
> James
>
> Electro Automotive wrote:
>> Are you sure about the Ford Courier part? I think the Electravan 750
>> was Subaru based. It was square, like a VW van, but smaller, like a
>> microvan. It had a very short wheelbase and narrow track.
>>
>> Mike Brown
>> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone
>> 831-429-1989 http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Electric
>> Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>>
>>
>
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right,
I've seen those, and that is what I want. I had been told that
ElectraVan 750's were Ford Courier's and the owner listed these as Ford
Couriers.
James
Bill Dennis wrote:
There's a picture of the one Mike is talking about at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/011.html
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know that removing and replacing a normal (internal combustion) engine
on a VW Beetle can be done in a couple of hours (or less) with two
people (mostly for lifting). It simply bolts to the transmission.
At VW club get togethers over the years, engine R+R races were quite
popular.
IIRC, R+R times were under 10 minutes. (two people)
Over the years, I have had a '60s bug motor out and on the ground in less
than ten minutes with just me, a floorjack and two jackstands.
Re-install doesn't take much longer than about fifteen to twenty if all is
nominal (as if that ever happens :^)
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$500 for a Yt??
this is enough for 6 packs of Yts...
It is not entirely clear that TS cells will do more than 500 cycles, with EV
loads on them.
Until they do, Even with Ultra Caps, Victor......I am not sure what going to
TS will give me?
Who has the the best Kilowatt/hour range numbers on thier TS pack????
200 amphrs or 326 should be 65Kwhr.
What is the best the TS group has gotten.
For reference ... a 228 volt 19 Orbital pack gets 6 Kwhr. 760 lbs for about
25 miles.
The 200 amp 326v TS pack should make 260 miles If both EVs can manage 250
Whrs per mile.
10 times the range. Anybody have ANY real world EV range capabilites from
TS???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
>
> >
> >> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> ok TS 200Ah, let's choose... your car exemple and compare 326V Optima
> >> pack
> > with say about 300V TS pack.
> >
> >>pack price:
> >>$3 500 | $30 000
> >
>
> Philippe;
>
> That's not quite right.
>
> the pack you are quoting is a 200ah Ts pack compared to a 50ah YT pack so
> the price difference is more like.
>
>
> $14,000 | $30,000
>
>
> Plus IF (big IF) the TS cells last as long as they predict they will go
> over half a million miles, and in the long run cost less than flooded
> GC's.
>
> Plus what is it worth to never have to change whole battery pack again.
>
>
> --
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> $500 for a Yt??
> this is enough for 6 packs of Yts...
Phillipe's figure of $3500 for a (50Ah) 324V string works out to just
under $130 per YT, which is reasonable.
Tim is suggesting that a fairer comparison would be a 200Ah 324V pack of
YTs since the $30k pack of TS LiIon is 200Ah. 200Ah of YTs requires 4
strings, and so Tim simply multiplied $3.5k x 4 = $14k; still the same
$130 per YT (though I suspect that buying over 100 at a shot would allow
a better price than this).
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this is really just a logical progression for
Plasmaboy.
There are some tracks near John's house. Maybe he has the pull to get a
siding . Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
ok guys, its finally happened, John has cracked. he's been on
the edge
for some years now, but I think this is where we draw the
line. :)
YOIKES! But it'll be a real crowd pleaser if he pulls it off. I
think the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor may need to have its name
adjusted after this happens. Power Pop Garden Tractor?
Actually, this is really just a logical progression for
Plasmaboy. It was only a matter of time. OK, the crowd array is
pretty out there... but hey, the world NEEDS one of these!
=====
George Tylinski (Yahoo ID acid_lead)
73 MG Midget / Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See if you can just get one. They are very simple vehicles. Ford Courier
Truck. There are some in the photo Album I think. Durable. I still see
some gas ones in San Francisco. I have one. Fired right up when I got the
pack voltage up. If they aren't rusty 2 k each would be a fair price.
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 7:52 AM
Subject: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
Greetings all.
I have just been given the opportunity to purchase 3 Electravan 750s. They
are in the barn of the original owner and have been there for about 10+
years.
I'm sure the rubber is destroyed and the battery banks MAY be all rusted
out if the bats have not been removed, but the price is right.
Question 1:
Does anyone have any pictures of what the ElectraVan 750 (Ford Courier
model) looked like? The owner is 76 years old and in poor health and not
in posession of a digtal camera.
Question 2: Assuming these are in decent (or even good) condition, I
really have no need for three of them, I probably need 1.25 (One, and a
few parts from another) I THINK I can get all three of the for $7,000. If
I could, would anyone else be intereted in purchasing one of them?
How about a group build? Anyone in the NC area willing to go in and see
if we can't get any/all of these running again for a reasonable cost?
Thanks.
James
Neon John wrote:
This is trivially easy to do with OBD-2 cars (95 and newer, generally).
Go here http://www.obd-2.com/ and buy one of his gateway products.
"Gateway" is the term applied to the OBD-2/RS-232 smart cable. The cheap
way out is to select the one for the particular car in question. A
better
but more expensive way is to get a tri-mode or tri-mode/CANbus gateway.
Then download his free software and fire it off. In addition to being an
extremely capable diagnostic tool, it is also a datalogger. In addition
to data logging, it has an additional capability that makes the task of
MPG calculation simple. This feature is computed variables whereby one
can write an equation using intrinsic variables to create a computed one.
Almost exactly like a spreadsheet cell. Without firing up my copy of the
program and looking, I believe that an MPG variable is one of his
examples.
His software is fully functional without the cable so you can download it
and play around. He has sample log files on the web site.
Alex Peper probably knows more about OBD-2 than anyone outside the OEMs.
The advantage is that he can work with you on specific problems that the
standard software might not address. He's one of those eggheads who
doesn't speak the same language us commoners do so it sometimes takes a
bit of work to understand what he's saying. Worth the effort, though.
There are two reasons why there aren't OBD-2-based MPG gauges on the
market, I think. The biggie is that most people just don't care enough
to
spend the money on the gadget. They pick a vehicle that suits their
needs
that sits in the MPG class they care about and then just drive it. That
even large cars get good mileage today means that unless one is a road
warrior, one can generally ignore mileage.
The second reason is the insane state of the legal system these days.
There is a fundamental limitation on how accurate such a gauge can be
because the behavior of the fuel injector is so variable at the low open
intervals involved in idle and low throttle angle driving. With the
injector valve in almost constant motion either opening or closing, the
flow vs open time is ill defined. This behavior is actually modeled
fairly accurately within the PCM for emissions reasons but that info
isn't
available on the OBD-2 data stream.
A related problem is the behavior of the fuel with temperature and
altitude. The mass flow through the injector at a given delta-P changes
with the viscosity of the fuel and that changes with temperature. The
mass flow also changes as the delta-P changes with air density. Again,
this behavior is modeled in the PCM but the information is not available
to the outside.
What all this adds up to is a computation that would not agree very well
with the miles-per-tank method of MPG computation. What happens when Joe
Blow consumer first sees the mis-match? Why, he runs to a lawyer, the
government or both.
The combo of low demand and high risk of litigation keeps the things off
the market. Perhaps someday some ChiCom outfit will make 20 million of
the things, channel them into the country through thousands of mostly
untraceable importers and they'll appear on the flea market tool tables
along with the screwdrivers that bend when you look at them.
John
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 12:09:05 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into
the diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data? Would
that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using
In theory it should. But, I've seen precious few products that actually
make fuel consumption data available. If it were easy, I would expect to
see "miles per gallon computers" on the market that do it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, by my calculations, only around 165 miles for the pack size that you
suggest (using the 250Wh/mile that you mention). The cells settle down to
about 80% of their rated value after a small number of cycles, so you'd soon
get only 160Ah out of the 200Ah cells. Plus, you use only 80% DOD on that,
ending up with about 128 usable Ah out of each cell. Since 326 Volts is
about 90 cells:
128Ah * 3.6V = 460.8Wh/cell
460Wh/cell * 90 cells = 41472Wh
41472Wh / 250Wh/mile = ~165 miles
Also, 90 200Ah cells would weigh 1089 pounds, as compared to the 760 pounds
of YT's. So the actual range difference isn't 10 times, but more like:
(165 / 25) * (760 / 1089) = ~4.6 times the range
If you were talking about 25 miles for 80% DOD on the YT's, then the 4.6
number should be more in the ballpark--assuming I didn't make any math
errors. To paraphrase Dan Quayle, "I stand by all my miscalculations." :)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 12:30 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
$500 for a Yt??
this is enough for 6 packs of Yts...
It is not entirely clear that TS cells will do more than 500 cycles, with EV
loads on them.
Until they do, Even with Ultra Caps, Victor......I am not sure what going to
TS will give me?
Who has the the best Kilowatt/hour range numbers on thier TS pack????
200 amphrs or 326 should be 65Kwhr.
What is the best the TS group has gotten.
For reference ... a 228 volt 19 Orbital pack gets 6 Kwhr. 760 lbs for about
25 miles.
The 200 amp 326v TS pack should make 260 miles If both EVs can manage 250
Whrs per mile.
10 times the range. Anybody have ANY real world EV range capabilites from
TS???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
>
> >
> >> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> ok TS 200Ah, let's choose... your car exemple and compare 326V Optima
> >> pack
> > with say about 300V TS pack.
> >
> >>pack price:
> >>$3 500 | $30 000
> >
>
> Philippe;
>
> That's not quite right.
>
> the pack you are quoting is a 200ah Ts pack compared to a 50ah YT pack so
> the price difference is more like.
>
>
> $14,000 | $30,000
>
>
> Plus IF (big IF) the TS cells last as long as they predict they will go
> over half a million miles, and in the long run cost less than flooded
> GC's.
>
> Plus what is it worth to never have to change whole battery pack again.
>
>
> --
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i agree so we are expecting 4 optima packs life (about 50 000miles) out of
our TS pack, at 200miles usable range it's about 200 cycles , considering no
cells failure, seems possible but we need the double to have same cost (8
Optima packs) other time.
If cells are ok for 400 cycles, you pay immediatly what you would have paid
8 times for Optima pack, added li-ion advantage on the deal (no batterie
exchange, less weight etc.) BUT ;^)
you are still giving $30 000 cash for expecting 400 cycle, expensive ? yes !
we must expect twice that minimum to talk about rEVolution...
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
>
> >
> >> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> ok TS 200Ah, let's choose... your car exemple and compare 326V Optima
> >> pack
> > with say about 300V TS pack.
> >
> >>pack price:
> >>$3 500 | $30 000
> >
>
> Philippe;
>
> That's not quite right.
>
> the pack you are quoting is a 200ah Ts pack compared to a 50ah YT pack so
> the price difference is more like.
>
>
> $14,000 | $30,000
>
>
> Plus IF (big IF) the TS cells last as long as they predict they will go
> over half a million miles, and in the long run cost less than flooded
> GC's.
>
> Plus what is it worth to never have to change whole battery pack again.
>
>
> --
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's one way to define "fair"... (requiring the same number of amphours
for both packs). If I define "fair" to be having the same internal
resistance, or ability to output "high" currents, how many TS would you
have to parallel to equal the string of yellow tops? I know, I'm arguing,
I'm just pointing out how hard it is to compare apples to oranges. I
don't even know what the application is; long range at all costs?
- Steve
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> $500 for a Yt??
>> this is enough for 6 packs of Yts...
>
> Phillipe's figure of $3500 for a (50Ah) 324V string works out to just
> under $130 per YT, which is reasonable.
>
> Tim is suggesting that a fairer comparison would be a 200Ah 324V pack of
> YTs since the $30k pack of TS LiIon is 200Ah. 200Ah of YTs requires 4
> strings, and so Tim simply multiplied $3.5k x 4 = $14k; still the same
> $130 per YT (though I suspect that buying over 100 at a shot would allow
> a better price than this).
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"You may have heard of people trying to be clever and cut
down on the water consumption, so they change their charger
back to avoid the gassing state, don't do that. It is very
important that you allow the battery to gas, vigorously, the
gassing actually stirs this electrolyte. You will get long
life and good capacity."
http://geocities.com/brucedp/evbatt.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That's one way to define "fair"... (requiring the same number
> of amphours for both packs). If I define "fair" to be having
> the same internal resistance, or ability to output "high"
> currents, how many TS would you have to parallel to equal the
> string of yellow tops? I know, I'm arguing, I'm just
> pointing out how hard it is to compare apples to oranges. I
> don't even know what the application is; long range at all costs?
No argument from me! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 5 Jan 2005 at 11:07, garry wrote:
>
> > a chain with no oil or grease presented no loss and any lubrication
> > added a loss with it, this would tend to make a chain drive
> the most
> > efficient, but of course there is the wear factor to take into
> > consideration.
>
> Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. If there's no
> friction in a dry
> chain (which you seem to suggest by saying "presented no
> loss"), there's no
> wear, nicht wahr? What am I missing here?
Hi David,
I'll venture a guess. First off, a chain with no lubrication could not have
"presented no loss". *Any* conversion of energy, even
mechanical-to-mechanical, involves losses. Let's assume Garry meant only to
say that lubrication increased loss.
The only way I can see this happening is if the loads involved were very
small. That would minimize friction loss in the chain, so viscous loss from
adding lubricant would then be very apparent. If you run a chain near rated
load with no lubrication, your losses might actually remain quite low - for
maybe a minute. The smooth steel moving against smooth steel presents
relatively little friction. That is until distortion, galling and assorted
other nasty phenomena rapidly occur. Then your losses quickly reach 100%.
;^)
So yes, lubricant represents a loss. And the only way to make a chain live
a reasonable life.
Chris
P.S. Occasionally I've run across someone who has just cleaned a ball
bearing in solvent. Then they blow it off with an air hose to dry it while
holding it with two fingers through the inner race. They quickly discover
that the air stream can get the bearing spinning up to a pretty high speed.
"Cool!", they say, and see how fast they can get it spinning. Think about
it - no lubricant, so no viscous losses. Extremely smooth, polished
surfaces. Even windage (air resistance) losses are small, since the bearing
is not moving much air from place to place, just setting up a little vortex.
Many thousands of rpm are possible (maybe over 100k?). Until what little
friction you're generating catches up to you, the bearing seizes, and the
stupendous angular momentum starts the inner race spinning at thousands of
rpm and tries to tear your fingers off.
--- End Message ---
