EV Digest 4045
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: regen...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: people willing to buy EV's
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by MReish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Trimuter EV?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EVLN(Put a tiger in your cap)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electricifying Times
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: regen...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV digest 4044
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Prius+ Project in the news
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Steve's business (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: UK EV construction ........Stuff
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Unfortunately this implies something else - that they've yet to attract
> any startup or venture capital. That does not bode well.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
Whoops John... you just stepped off the deep end.
Rick doesn't have investors because he does not want that image. His
captial is his own. And that's the way he wants it.
There is a big difference in taking orders and investment funds, then NOT
producing.
Rick's Tango has been produced, Ran with us NEDRA racers, driven in Portland
and spent time Just being a cute EV right along with our own home brews.
This Guy is one of us, and is Real. Against all odds and common sense, Rick
has prevailed. My hat is off to him in Big way.
There is also the fact that, that Tango has a PFC30 in it. So.... It has
some of my blood in it as well.
So while Rick and the Tango start to actually make units for sale....Many of
the Highly invested, over engineered over hyped EVs are looking for more
investor funds, Rick is looking for solid orders and
a growth curve.
Rick does not ask this EV list for million dollar investors... and then take
orders and still not produce.
I can live with Rick and his Tango... maybe he won't get rich quick... But I
will gladly help keep his dream alive.
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: regen...
> M.G. wrote:
> > In my information it is regen the panel is an ev-100 and plug braking
> > was always there and regen was an option.
> > I dont think much energy went back to the battery but brush life
> > increased by three times.
>
> I've never heard of regen *increasing* brush life. It usually decreases
> brush life, because they now carry current more of the time, and the
> motor timing has to be a compromise between motoring and generating
> action.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Or have interpoles, or no brushes at all. Then regen doesn't matter.
Regen without much current means you are KILLING your brushes... I bet your
brush life dropped by a third.
Friction brake life goes up... rather dramaticly.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I work on computers, with Linux operating system, and that is the
philosophy behind Linux and the open source community, that's why i say it
can be done, linux is better than windows, and free.
http://www.li.org/whatislinux.php
Read that page, I think you are right, if it can be done with computers, it
can be done with ev's.
Ah Hell, let's do it !, I build websites for a living, and I'm good at it,
so, let's get a domain, and start gathering info to post, such as plans,
drawings, calculations etc.
We could build a massive website with everything to help the ev
builder/owner, and totally non profit (maybe a little advertising to cover
costs :) )
It has taken me more than a year to gather all the info to be able to start
my project, it would have been nice to have had a website with (how to build
an ev), I have to thank Mike Chancey and others for their websites, those
were very informative, but what I mean is one with everything, bikes trikes
recumbent, cars trucks etc, the info could be supplied by the hundreds of
independent builders all around the world (successes and failures) because
failures teach a lot also.
Well, how's that ????
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de David Dymaxion
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 14:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: people willing to buy EV's
Some twists on the idea: Some kitplane builders have done group
builds. One guy builds one part or structure 6 times, and then they
lottery who gets first choice of them, who gets 2nd, etc.
This idea was spawned from "Tabletop Machining by Joe Martin" (a
great book on machining, BTW). Do a linux-like thing where dispersed
builders each build several copies of parts, and send it to a central
place for assembly.
If you build a neat part, you might consider making several copies
and offering them for sale (through an ev parts seller or directly).
Or, if you want to be altruistic and help a small business, give the
plans to ev parts fabricators and sellers.
This idea may be most easily implemented: Sharing plans. You could
draw up a part in emachineshop or a cad program, and post it on a web
page.
Side note: I drew up plans to do an adapter in emachineshop. In
quantities of 1, it was much more expensive than buying an adapter
from an ev parts supplier like ElectroAuto! The price per unit
droppped rapidly with larger numbers.
--- "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You mean like this but with ev's ?
>
> We all work on someone's ev until it's our turn to geto one ?
>
> mmmm... We would first have to agree on a standard ev design which
> would
> leave everyone happy, then start working, looks complicated, but
> not
> impossible.
>
> Good idea.
>
> Ivo Jara G.
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
The central computer idea is also what I have planned for the
Ghiamonster though I'll probably run with Win3k for the OS. Companies
like http://www.travla.com and
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/c.ACCT127230/sc.8/category.15/.f make the
kind of hardware that should work in this environment. I had planned on
using one of these systems with a touch sensitive screen like
http://www.xenarc.com/product/700ts.html to display all the gauges and
diagnostic information relevant to an EV as well as providing an
interface to the controllers and whatever else.
I'd be very interested in any information you could give me on the
following:
o Gauge types (Motor Amps & Volts, Controller Amps & Volts, Battery
Amps & Volts - perhaps interfacing with Rudman Regs here, Tachometer,
etc with limits and warnings for values out of appropriate ranges) that
can be drawn.
o An appropriate graphical interface to access all this information as
well as controlling the Zilla controllers.
o A/D input hardware that can digitize all the relevant analog inputs.
...and whatever else seems relevant.
It seems like you might've given this area lots of thought and I'd love
to get your ideas on it.
Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Rod Hower wrote:
> I'm sure Rick is on top of this, but I hope there
> is somebody close by to monitor and work on any
> service issues of this vehicle. This is great EV PR
> as long as the vehicle doesn't have issues like
> imbalanced batteries or other issues that will affect
> the range.
This is worrisome to me, too. Virtually *all* limited-production and
prototype EVs have gotten sold with negligible after-sale support and
maintenance. When things go wrong (as they always do), the early
adopters can get disillusioned very quickly.
> Hopefully Lee's batt balancer is on this one.
We started putting it in one of Rick's earlier Tangos, but it then got
crowded out when he switched from Optimas to the larger Orbitals. The
current Tango has changed batteries again, and he's now trying out
Hawkers.
My dream is that we'll get a central Linux computer in the Tango, with a
wireless connection so we can see what's going on in it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
> There are some advantages to living in latin america, here you can bribe
> agencies for peanuts.:)
>
Cost effective !!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing to consider is that if his assertions were correct, that a very
low CG offers advantages in performance as he claims, racers would be all
over it. They aren't.
I also note that Royce worked F1 for years, raced motorcycles and
has built and raced at least a dozen FFs over the decades (in
non-sanctioned events). In my mind, empirical knowledge trumps
theoretical debate every time.
Whoo hoo! Something I *CAN* comments on finally in the EVDL!
I am a motorcycle racer. Okay, I 'retired' because it's so expensive.
Thank of the old joke of how to make a small fortune in racing?
Start with a big one?
Honda have tried to put a very low CG on their bikes. Back in the
early/mid 80's they had a machine called the NS500R with all the
heavy bits down low. They found that on the straightaways (where
they reached speeds of nearly 200mph - remember, this is a long time
ago) the bike would undulate back and forth. As if that weren't scary
enough, the poor pilot (Freddy Spencer) discovered it didn't turn
very well either. Very, very scary when there's a wall at the end of
the straight... After most of a racing season of Spencer's
complaints about ill handling and the Honda engineers saying he was
crazy they finally put the CG back and he won the championship.
This was long after Chris' time so we wouldn't remember it. poke, poke :)
The fact that racers don't use recumbents in either is due solely
to bureaucracy, not technical feasibility.
Uhm... no. The biggest reason I can think of why you don't see 'bents
in racing is because they'd get spanked. Motorcycles are very
intimate beasts. To get one around the track in a hurry you need to
feel what front end is doing and need to be able to move your body
around. Not just lean your torso left and right but stand on the
pegs, move your weight over the front wheel, over the back wheel,
etc. I've only test ridden a 'bent and I couldn't do that. On a
'bent you're isolated from the front end like a car (bleh). It's like
groping the prom queen with mittens on your hands.
Don't get me wrong: I love recumbents. I have one on the drawing board.
Mike
"It starts off innocent enough until one day you realize you've got a
1000-amp-a-day habit." - Bill Dube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking to build a ground up EV instead of doing another conversion. I like
the looks of the doran but I really like this trimuter ev.
http://www.rqriley.com/tm.htm Sure it'll take forever to build but my new job
doesn't require a 5 hour commute everyday so I gotta find something to do with
my spare time. Are there any serious issues with this idea or these plans?
Anyone done this or have any good advice?
I just want something fun and quick in contrast to my S-15 Pickup. I was
originally thinking about getting the rodster kit at www.rodster.com but that
is expensive for any improvement it might offer.
Mark Hastings
S-15 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Put a tiger in your cap)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=916
Supercapacitors: Novel High Octane -- High Protein Elements in
Electric Energy Storage 1.21.05 Artur Braun, Researcher, Consortium
for Fossil Fuel Sciences
In 2001, the Energy Storage Council ESC was founded as a unified
voice
in Washington D.C. and key state capitals for the energy storage
community. The ESC pictures the energy supply chain in historically
five dimensions, this is i) fuels and energy sources, ii) energy
generation, iii) energy transmission, iv) energy distribution, and
v)
customer energy services and consumption. The new council believes,
that energy storage will be the sixth dimension. According to ESC,
storage of renewable energy could increase the value of energy, as
it can be supplied to the market by a more convenient schedule.
I want to outline in this article how supercapacitors can
contribute
to this task.
Supercapacitors are one novel class of capacitors with an energy
density several orders of magnitudes larger than traditional
capacitors. Supercaps, frequently also referred to as powercaps,
ultracaps, or pseudocaps, are electrochemical double layer
capacitors, based on high surface area electrodes. Carbons with
surface areas of more than 1000 m2/g are typically used as
electrode material. Capacities can be as high as 100 Farad per
gram.
Thus, a supercap can store more energy than a regular capacitor of
the same size.
A drawback is, that supercaps have a larger time constant than
conventional capacitors. This means, supercaps are slower for
charge
or discharge, compared to a regular capacitor. But with higher
power
density than that of batteries, and higher energy density than that
of regular capacitors, supercapacitors are successfully
establishing
their position between the aforementioned energy storage and
conversion devices.
Supercapacitors were first manufactured and marketed by Panasonic
more than 20 years ago. In the meantime, their Goldcap-tm has
become
a commodity of the passive components industry, which can be used
for power back-up purposes in many electronic devices, like alarm
clocks, PCs, and so on. To date, about two dozens companies
manufacture supercapacitors either as commodities, or for use in
their own products.
Recently supercaps found a relatively new application as power
cache
in automotive applications. As a matter of fact, much comfort can
be
added to electric vehicles by using supercaps. Fuel cells and
batteries do have sufficient energy to run an electric car, bus, or
truck. But when compared with vehicles that operate on combustion
engines, the “tiger in the tank” seems missing in electric
vehicles.
This is because energy supply by batteries and fuel cells is a
relatively slow process. If we seek analogies to compare supercaps
and batteries, we find them in the computer data storage media: A
hard disk or a CD ROM have gigantic data storage capacity (in
analogy to batteries), but writing and reading them takes much more
longer time then doing the same on the RAM memory (in analogy to
capacitors), which comes with smaller data storage capacity,
however. Of course, to make a computer a convenient tool we need
both – hard disk, and RAM.
The same should hold for electric vehicles. This is maybe why
Californian Maxwell Technologies named one product line of their
supercaps PowerCache-tm. Some municipalities in USA operate fuel
cell based busses for their public transportation system. Maxwell’s
supercaps support these busses. Fuel cells or batteries deliver the
energy so that the electric vehicle has a range of some hundred
miles or so, but to really speed up when required, the supercap is
necessary.
Supercaps can be recharged so fast, that the breaking energy of a
vehicle can be almost entirely recuperated, stored, and utilized
for
further acceleration. Actually, this holds even for combustion
engine powered vehicles, provided they have a supplemental electric
motor. Canadian supercap firm Tavrima demonstrates how a BMW-318i
with 4-cylinder engine can outperform a BMW-320i with 6-cylinder
engine. Tavrima’s supercaps serve here basically as a catapult for
a fine sports car.
Honda is leasing a small number of fuel cell powered vehicles to
several public organizations in California and New York. These cars
use hydrogen as fuel, and supercaps manufactured by Honda give
these
cars their powerful appeal. German capacitor manufacturer EPCOS
produces supercap modules for transportation purposes. While
capacitor firm Maxwell and auto producer Honda are quite open and
self-conscious with public announcements on their supercapacitor
business and activities, most other firms hold back with
information
on this new strategic technology.
Supercapacitors have silently entered the market 25 years ago when
Panasonic introduced its Goldcap-tm. They look like electrolyte
capacitors, and it is only their very high capacity and the still
high price that makes them different from the other caps. Where a
lithium battery was used as power back-up in personal computers,
the
supercap will do the same job better, because it can be recharged
every time the computer is on, while a battery will eventually run
out empty. Supercaps can be charged and discharged about 1 million
times without significant loss in performance. They even will
survive the lifetime of a car. Silently will they enter the
electric vehicle market, and probably the energy market as well.
Maxwell recently announced that they have won the bid for a
contract with German ENERCON, a wind energy plant firm. Utilization
of supercaps in wind energy plants makes sense, because supercaps
are as dynamic as the weather on a local scale. Every tiny bit of
excess energy claimed from the wind by the electric generators can
be passed on to the supercaps immediately, with virtually no loss.
Unwanted self-discharge of supercaps is very limited for this
application. Smart electric energy management can pass the energy
on to the electricity network, or to alternative storage networks.
Hence, storage of energy could increase the value of energy, as it
can be supplied by a more convenient schedule.
Copyright © 2002-2005, CyberTech, Inc. - All rights reserved.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I fI'm right, you want to monitor all the car's vitals with a PC. That is
straightforward, there are sending units virtually for everything in the
market, all will hook up to a serial or paralell port, regarding the soft,
you can have it written, or look for it in shareware form,.
If you want proof that the soft exists, and is readily availiable check out
the Intel active monitor, it will display gauges in your screen, and
measure: fan speed, processor temp, processor core voltage, ambient temp
inside the PC, voltage at the power source, and lots of other variables.
You can look at it at:
http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/s815ebm1/sb/CS-006610.h
tm
It's a great idea, plus it will look neat, good luck
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Steve Marks
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 15:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Lee,
The central computer idea is also what I have planned for the
Ghiamonster though I'll probably run with Win3k for the OS. Companies
like http://www.travla.com and
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/c.ACCT127230/sc.8/category.15/.f make the
kind of hardware that should work in this environment. I had planned on
using one of these systems with a touch sensitive screen like
http://www.xenarc.com/product/700ts.html to display all the gauges and
diagnostic information relevant to an EV as well as providing an
interface to the controllers and whatever else.
I'd be very interested in any information you could give me on the
following:
o Gauge types (Motor Amps & Volts, Controller Amps & Volts, Battery
Amps & Volts - perhaps interfacing with Rudman Regs here, Tachometer,
etc with limits and warnings for values out of appropriate ranges) that
can be drawn.
o An appropriate graphical interface to access all this information as
well as controlling the Zilla controllers.
o A/D input hardware that can digitize all the relevant analog inputs.
...and whatever else seems relevant.
It seems like you might've given this area lots of thought and I'd love
to get your ideas on it.
Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Rod Hower wrote:
> I'm sure Rick is on top of this, but I hope there
> is somebody close by to monitor and work on any
> service issues of this vehicle. This is great EV PR
> as long as the vehicle doesn't have issues like
> imbalanced batteries or other issues that will affect
> the range.
This is worrisome to me, too. Virtually *all* limited-production and
prototype EVs have gotten sold with negligible after-sale support and
maintenance. When things go wrong (as they always do), the early
adopters can get disillusioned very quickly.
> Hopefully Lee's batt balancer is on this one.
We started putting it in one of Rick's earlier Tangos, but it then got
crowded out when he switched from Optimas to the larger Orbitals. The
current Tango has changed batteries again, and he's now trying out
Hawkers.
My dream is that we'll get a central Linux computer in the Tango, with a
wireless connection so we can see what's going on in it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and
is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed.
If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby
advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please
immediately delete.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 19/01/2005
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Jan 2005 at 11:56, James A. Eckman wrote:
> Does anyone know if "Electrifying Times" is still in business? I subscribed
> last July but have only received one issue so far. They do not reply to my
> e-mails.
Electrifying Times is the only mag I'm aware of which publishes more or less
when the whim strikes them - or perhaps when they have enough material to
make it worthwhile - rather than on any regular schedule. I subscribed
years ago and thought it was a waste of money, since the issues stopped
after one or two. But every now and again an issue still shows up in my
mailbox. So they do honor their subscriptions, it's just that you never
know when the next issue will arrive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > M.G. wrote:
> > > In my information it is regen the panel is an ev-100 and plug
> > > braking was always there and regen was an option. I dont
> > > think much energy went back to the battery but brush life
> > > increased by three times.
> >
> > [Lee wrote:]
> >
> > I've never heard of regen *increasing* brush life. It usually
> > decreases brush life, because they now carry current more
> > of the time, and the motor timing has to be a compromise between
> > motoring and generating action.
>
> Regen without much current means you are KILLING your
> brushes... I bet your brush life dropped by a third.
I think that M.G. is stating that brush life increased by 3 times with
regen vs units using plug braking, not that it increased 3x over units
without either. Look at it this way and what he is telling us is that
plug braking (on the EV-100) is 3x harder on brushes than regen.
I think this is entirely believable if the regen provides better control
over the motor loop current than plug braking did/does. The fact that
the regen doesn't push a lot of current into the pack and doesn't wear
the brushes excessively may simply be because the regen current limit is
set conservatively; it doesn't have to mean the brushes are getting
killed.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
EV Digest 4044
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Sacramento EV Parade & BarBQ
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Problem with list serve (ev@listproc.sjsu.edu)
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) NEDRA Wicked Watts Race April 9, 2005
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) How did Comuter Cars Corp of Spokane get hooked upwithn England's
PRODRIVE
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV Prices
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Don Cameron's New Beetle EV
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New BEV for Sale to Beta Customer
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: zero emissions ? ballons?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: regen...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday 1/22/04 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) The Rangers are saved. Who gets them??????
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Home-made_emergency_disconnect?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: people willing to buy EV's
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electricifying Times
by "James A. Eckman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: NEDRA Wicked Watts Race April 9, 2005
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE:CE news
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) RE: people willing to buy EV's
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Prodrive Builds Tango - the whole story
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: New BEV for Sale to Beta Customer
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Guys What happend ? It' missing all the text
Subject:
Sacramento EV Parade & BarBQ
From:
Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:06:36 -0800
To:
Club EV1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], EV
Discussion <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
To:
Club EV1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], EV
Discussion <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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The current issue of MetroSantaCruz has a good article
on CalCars' Prius Plus project.
See the article at:
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/cruz/01.19.05/rev-0503.html
And if you're in the San Francisco area and want to
drive a Prius+ prototype and hear from the Prius+ team
in person, come to the next meeting of the SF Electric
Auto Association on Sat., Feb. 4, from 11:30 a.m. to
1:30 p.m. at 1484 16th Avenue, SF (at Kirkham). Avcon
and 110 charging available. SFEAA info: 415-681-7716.
=====
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Auto Association
415-681-7716
www.sfeaa.org
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
Thats just about what I was thinking 1-1/2 year ago when my daughter wanted
a new car. I looked at the Kia Rio and even tho im a "buy American" kinda
guy I gotta admit that its a darn decent car for the $$. And the warrantee
is tough to beat. I figured that I would go down and get a couple on the
$5,995 deal, give her one and do a conversion on the other with the goal of
developing a kit for that car. Do the first, swap out her car and then
convert the second, third. Figured I could do the whole deal top drawer for
around 15-18k ea (no labor or profit of course). Credit union was even
willing to loan me most of the money. Long story short, went to the Kia
Dealer, told them I wanted 2 or 3 of the strippos, they pretty much laughed
me off the lot. When you read
the fine print, darn near impossible to get one at anywhere near that price.
A little over 8k ea was the best they would do.
I even complained to Kia US about the deceptive sales policies. They called
me and asked me what it would take to make me happy. I told them a new
strippo Rio for the advertised price, no games no exceptions, no hoops.
Havn't heard
back from them yet. Oh, daughter did end up going off on her own and bought
the Rio. Got hosed on the $$, but after 25K miles I still think that they
are decent little cars. Would make a great glider. Paint quality is a bit
poor tho.
You know what really gets to me is the amount of $$ and effort being spent
by obviously very capable business people developing and marketing
oddball/limited appeal niche market EVs with varying degrees of "success"
when when developing a standard conversion to be such an obvious, effective
direction to get people driving electrically. There is a large well
documented market for a basic transportation/utility EVs as evidenced again
by the Range EV protest. I know I am not the only one this idea has occurred
to, I got some positive feedback when I originally posted on the subject
and again while composing this note I have seen a couple others saying
almost the exact thing. Mike Brown apparently did similar with his Rabbit
kits until "the Rabbit died" and I assume did OK doing so. I think a small
well managed company could do very well using this strategy and on
relatively low starting capitol. Don't get me wrong, I guess anyone doing
anything with BEVs is better than nothing, and I am really not trying to be
critical, just frustrated is all. Wish Steve lived closer, I think we would
be great drinking buddies :-).
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: Steve's business (was: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist
Repossession)
> Hi Steve,
>
> Something you might consider bringing up with your potential buyers:
would
> they be willing to pay a bit more for a new car converted to electric? A
lot of
> cars can be had for small money (a base Civic, Kia, Echo, Ranger, Saturn
> or Hyundai can often be had for under $10k brand new, and some, like the
Kia
> Rio, are blown out for as little as $5,500 new. In the case of the Echo,
Ranger
> and Civic certainly, you could get decent money parting out a brand-new
zero-
> mile ICE, cooling system, computer, etc., and recoup some of the
additional
> costs, maybe even breaking even compared to an early to late 90's used
car.
> (Or use the ICE components to build and sell generator trailers or
something.)
>
> Ask the question. You may find someone who isn't so sure about $100 for
> an older used car, but might jump at the chance to buy a brand new car
> converted to electric for $200 a month.
>
> Tim
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob, Richard & all
Hi Richard an' All;
Had to chime in on this one. The UK, Home of a buncha Milk Floats and
other sundry EV's . Didn't one Lister Over There do a Morris Pickup with a
milk float motor?
Yes! That's probably me you're thinking about!
A Mini pickup, with an old British-built series-wound motor - not
sure what the motor came out of though...
( which will probably be upgraded soon to a Netgain Warp motor )
Must be somewhere these vehicles go to die? Parts? Maybe.
Scrapyards - sure wish I could find this stuff around here...
maybe our local scrappies know too much, and know big electrical
stuff is worth money, even just for the salvage value...
Although I suspect many of the milkfloats just keep on going,
year after year.... those motors are big & heavy for the
amount of power they're rated at. They are built to last.
I would think Europe would be a
parts bazaaar?The Swiss outfit that Solectria got alot of their hardware
from, Brussa(sp)? Batteries? AH! Right near the source, France, for the
Safts.
There is stuff out there, just sometimes it's harder to find.
That lovely little MES vacuum pump, for instance, which Victor
imports into the USA. Got one on the Mini, it's great.
I make it sound too easy, AFFORDABLE stuff, as you say, is a challange,
but with petrel hovering at 5-7 bux a gallon, you'd think there would be
more EV activity on the continent. But I have heard that it is very
difficult to just haul off and convert a car there. Legal crap, can't just
"Tag" it and drive off in clouds of contentment. Saftty inspections, yada
yada yada, legal red tape because you arent paying the road tax, like Or, a
surcharge if yur elecytric or hybrid.
It depends on where you live. Here in the UK, it's easy.
As long as it passes the standard yearly safety test that all
cars have to pass, and if you can get insurance ( again not too bad,
as long as you haven't been really silly when building )
then you can drive it. Maybe we're lucky that we still have
a decent specialist/kitcar market, which helps prevent the legislators
getting too over-enthusiastic....or maybe we've just been lucky.. ;-)
Fellow in Portugal I used to write to
said that modyifying a car there was a no-no. It HAD to pass a annual safety
inspection, they, the inspection folks would definately pick up on it, first
look, if it was electric.Or not stock.
Yes, it is much worse in some countries on the Continent...
I can see the appeal of a Reva or other Out of the Box , EVen a GEM car
and drive cars.Europe isn't ALL Autobahns' Yet? Or is it? Narrow city
streets, in the old part of town, ideal EV country?Actually more so than
here. But there are few other products/concepts that the Whole World is
ready for and could use, right now!
Lots of high speed highways, but also lots of twisty-turny
roads, narow streets in old cities, a real mix.
We're pushed for space over here, not like the wide open
spaces of the USA!
I still wish DC/Smart would do an electric version of the Smart,
like the Zytek one we saw back at EVS17 in Montreal.
Pity that wasn't in the ride'n'drive....
I'll just have to stick with the Minis for now
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Set up something like Habitat for Humanity does for homes [for
>> building EVs]...
M Bianchi wrote:
> It might be better if the person with the most credits PAID the
> others who worked on the house according to the credits they earned.
Yes, if they have the money to do so. But Habitat for Humanity generally
works with/for people who just don't have the money. And (in the USA at
least) if you paid people, then all sorts of laws, unions, and
bureaucracies get in the way.
HFH's method does work. They are literally the largest home builder in
the world!
But if you're building an EV, there may be ways you can pay your
volunteers without triggering an attack by the bureaucratic immune
system. You can pay an unskilled backyard mechanic to replace your car
radiator, but not to replace your home's water heater (many areas
require a licensed plumber, building permit, have to get it inspected,
etc.)
When we discussed this before, lots of good ideas came up. One I liked
was that you could run it like a community car-sharing program. You join
an EV co-op, and in return for working on the EV that is currently being
built, you can borrow the coop's EV for your own driving. The more hours
worked, the more time you have with the coop's EV. When the current EV
is finished, it can be "sold" to the high bidder. People can pay with
either money or hours worked. Money of course lets the coop buy parts to
build the next EV.
This plan seems to have all the right incentives in place. If you are
careless and break the coop's EV, you have to fix it. Time spent on it
takes away from getting the next new EV finished, and so delays how long
it will take for you to get *your* EV.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Thanks Ivo.
I'm confident the information can be effectively represented. I just
need to know what information to display, how to gather it to the PC and
how it should appear to the user. The code I can do myself.
It would be nice to interface to Rudman's regs and get per-battery
information during race and recharge events. It would also be nice to
present a GUI for access to various Zilla options - especially since the
Ghiamonster will have three of these and anything I do on one would most
likely need to be propagated to the other two.
With a GUI at my disposal, there's a great deal of EV related
information I can choose to represent. The biggest unknown is what
information, how to gather it and how it should appear to the user.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ivo Jara G.
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
I fI'm right, you want to monitor all the car's vitals with a PC. That
is
straightforward, there are sending units virtually for everything in the
market, all will hook up to a serial or paralell port, regarding the
soft,
you can have it written, or look for it in shareware form,.
If you want proof that the soft exists, and is readily availiable check
out
the Intel active monitor, it will display gauges in your screen, and
measure: fan speed, processor temp, processor core voltage, ambient temp
inside the PC, voltage at the power source, and lots of other variables.
You can look at it at:
http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/server/s815ebm1/sb/CS-0066
10.h
tm
It's a great idea, plus it will look neat, good luck
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre
de Steve Marks
Enviado el: viernes, 21 de enero de 2005 15:31
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: RE: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Lee,
The central computer idea is also what I have planned for the
Ghiamonster though I'll probably run with Win3k for the OS. Companies
like http://www.travla.com and
http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/c.ACCT127230/sc.8/category.15/.f make the
kind of hardware that should work in this environment. I had planned on
using one of these systems with a touch sensitive screen like
http://www.xenarc.com/product/700ts.html to display all the gauges and
diagnostic information relevant to an EV as well as providing an
interface to the controllers and whatever else.
I'd be very interested in any information you could give me on the
following:
o Gauge types (Motor Amps & Volts, Controller Amps & Volts, Battery
Amps & Volts - perhaps interfacing with Rudman Regs here, Tachometer,
etc with limits and warnings for values out of appropriate ranges) that
can be drawn.
o An appropriate graphical interface to access all this information as
well as controlling the Zilla controllers.
o A/D input hardware that can digitize all the relevant analog inputs.
...and whatever else seems relevant.
It seems like you might've given this area lots of thought and I'd love
to get your ideas on it.
Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 8:28 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EVLN(Clooney's Electric car is the star!)
Rod Hower wrote:
> I'm sure Rick is on top of this, but I hope there
> is somebody close by to monitor and work on any
> service issues of this vehicle. This is great EV PR
> as long as the vehicle doesn't have issues like
> imbalanced batteries or other issues that will affect
> the range.
This is worrisome to me, too. Virtually *all* limited-production and
prototype EVs have gotten sold with negligible after-sale support and
maintenance. When things go wrong (as they always do), the early
adopters can get disillusioned very quickly.
> Hopefully Lee's batt balancer is on this one.
We started putting it in one of Rick's earlier Tangos, but it then got
crowded out when he switched from Optimas to the larger Orbitals. The
current Tango has changed batteries again, and he's now trying out
Hawkers.
My dream is that we'll get a central Linux computer in the Tango, with a
wireless connection so we can see what's going on in it!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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