EV Digest 4062
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) palm
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Palm Keyboard
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Insight, NiZn or LiIon batteries
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Interesting article on Usatoday for EV hybrids
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Insight, NiZn or LiIon batteries
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ETEK problem found.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ETEK problem found. (extreem cooling?)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage, than
motor voltage?)
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage, than
motor voltage?)
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ETEK problem found. ( disassemble )
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Insight, NiZn or LiIon batteries
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: homen made contactor
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: 1999 electro truck
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well All be a son of a gun. I have a palm-phone and I never new about
that grafitti help. thanks But my keyboard screen does have a return
symbol on it.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.0 - Release Date: 1/27/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an Infrared keyboard for Palms that would keep the port
available. Last one I saw was at ratshack but it was overpriced.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.0 - Release Date: 1/27/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I've been driving the Insight since April 2003 (started conversion
in Sep 2002). I'm really happy with the efficiency of the Insight: 5
mi/KWH on the freeway, 6-8 mi/KWH for most driving 35-45 mph, and not
quite 10 mi/KWH going around the block at school zone speeds. If
anything, the biggest problem is the low GVWR. I'm about 200 lbs over
the orginal weight with 466 lbs of 38AHC10 Hawkers and the 48-lb PFC50,
and running about an inch lower in the back. (No suspension or brake
work so far).
I originally planned it for Evercel MB80's after seeing Sheer's car at
Woodburn 2002. However, when the MB80's actually came out, they were a
bit wider than spec--they would not fit in my battery box that replaces
the OEM battery box and motor controller in the back.
The TS LiIon's seem to carry a lot of energy per pound, but you can't
get it out of them fast enough for EV work (low power). I'm taking an
very cautious approach--I've spent more on lab equipment to study them
than on the batteries!
However, with either ultracaps or a high power string in parallel, they
should be able to get good range. Some others have done this already. I
plan to prove it on the bench before putting them in the car.
Aside from being way to busy at work, I am still waiting for a good BMS
with data collection capabilities and a thermal management (heating and
cooling) before deploying. I at least want to know how I killed them... ;-)
Seriously, my main concern is that we learn how to take care of them to
get the long life (and economic benefit) that should be possible with
them as well as the extended range.
Gary
Victor wrote:
> John Westlund wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I've been lusting over Wayland's Insight proposal for
> > too long then. With aero upgrades done to many EVs, my
> > planned GT6 conversion would be about as aerodynamic, with
> > such a small 15 square foot frontal area. Stock Cd is only
> > 32.
>
> Gary Graunke has done about what John Wayland was proposing,
>and I believe is pretty happy with outcome.
> Not quite the same drive system (better matching Insight
> in my view), but use lead for now waiting for LiIons.
> Evercells are way too bulky for such a tiny car, even though
> are light.
> You need to pick the battery with better volumetric energy
> density than NiZn ones. With high enough voltage, battery power
> is not taht much of a concern - NiZn easily would pull Insight
> as battery currenct would never exceed 150A or so.
> (Statement does not apply to John of course).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-01-28-plugged-in-hybrids_x.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:42 PM -0600 1-28-05, Ryan Stotts wrote:
In regards to the serial connection, what about long term?
Years from now. Have you looked into USB or Firewire?
USB is difficult for a small manufacturer to implement. I also don't
know of any USB terminal programs. Remember, I'm trying to do this
simple and inexpensive. I find people don't want to spend an extra
thousand dollars just to adjust settings. :-)
Fortunately there are many USB to RS-232 converters available for
about $30. So us Apple users can still access it.
And Firewire, as much of an Apple fan that I am, I can't see it being
practical for such a use.
Bluetooth maybe someday...
At 6:07 PM -0500 1-28-05, Neon John wrote:
>I suspect I could allocate half a K of ROM to such a interface. Do
you think XML is the kind of thing that could be implemented in 500
bytes of ROM?
No, definitely not. XML is one of those faddish solutions that is mostly
looking for a problem. Think "very verbose, slobbery HTML".
XML is, IMHO, little more than a conspiracy to sell faster hardware, more
memory and more bandwidth. Definitely NOT applicable here.
Sounds like an extension of Microshaft. :-)
I appreciate your perspective John.
<1> file menu
<2> open file
<3> save file
<4> delete file
<5> rename file.
Each command is also assigned a globally unique number. If there is a
user on the terminal, he can either enter the first letter of the command
or the number. frequently used commands that are down several menu levels
can be executed directly by number. I provide a command to change the
dialog from "verbose" (human readable) to "compact" (numbers only).
Nice. I can see how it might get a bit inelegant if commands are
added in the future. Once would like all the numbers to be
consecutive, but that may change since I think it would be more
important to keep hold of backward compatibility.
At 3:13 PM -0800 1-28-05, Don Cameron wrote:
What I find is useful, if the controller or device could simply output
well-published ASCII information, then it is easy for a palm, PocketPC,
computer, etc. to read. XML is a little overkill for the output of a
device.
That was my first thought.
It is clearly a case of doing everything possible to offload the
processing to the other processor since it is much more powerful and
cheaper. I imagine a rev number that can be recalled so that the
connecting device can know if it is up to date with the current menu.
.....
XML is much nicer to read, and much easier for PC or PocketPC or Palms to
read, but at 9600 baud it will be slow. An this is only for two parameters.
Now if you do run into memory constraints, scrap the ASCII and go straight
for binary output. A lot of devices do this and it is not too bad.
Continuing with the above example, in hex:
56 00 F0
41 00 6E
56 00 F0
41 00 69
56 00 F0
41 00 64
This is close to what I do now for the data acquisition function. I
send ten lines of hex data per second. With some of my longer lines
of data even this pushes the capacity of 9600 baud. But in my case
the data is predefined with one value per byte. Once again it
requires outside documentation. In the future, I'd like to make the
command that starts the operation determine which data is on a line.
This would allow more flexibility of the interface.
At 3:22 PM -0800 1-28-05, Steve Marks wrote:
Wow, a whole half a K! I feel like a king! =o)
Must be a windows programmer! :-)
I just HAD to get that jibe in here somewhere. :-) Ooops, so sorry
about the politics.. :-o
Actually, I suppose it *could* be implemented in half a K. The largest
consumer of memory would probably just be the tag names.
I'm using the term XML here pretty loosely. Basically, I just mean
marked up text. For instance, the following might be a stream of XML
that an application could send the Zilla to tell it to set the Motor Amp
Limit to 800 amps, the Battery Voltage Limit to 170 volts and return
with the current Motor Voltage Limit:
<SET><MAL>800</MAL><BVL>170</BVL></SET><GET><MVL/></GET>
To which the Zilla might respond:
<MVL>150</MVL>
For this interface you'd need storage space for the SET, GET, MAL, BVL
and MVL tags plus some simple parsing code. Depending on the number of
tags and how terse you can keep their text, it might just fit in that
space.
Hmmm, It looks a bit complicated. With my current format it only
processes one command at a time (and it does not respond at all while
it's busy driving). Your example command wouldn't even fit in my
input buffer! But that's not saying it can't be done, I was just
saving the large buffer space for the future EVIL bus control. There
may still be room for both. Anyway, I suspect your system would work
just as well running one command at a time. That would be easier to
fit.
Note, since every XML operation begins with a '<' character, your
teletype interface could simply forward any string received to the XML
parser if it began with '<' and process the others the same as it does
now. The result would be two separate interfaces simultaneously
available.
That's good, it certainly needs to be available to the text interface
as a default. You have to realize that most customers have enough of
a challenge learning the regular text interface. They would do better
not knowing anything more exists.
The XML interface could even be tested through the teletype
interface by having the user type the XML in directly, though I can't
imagine the graffiti stroke that does <, / and > ;o)
I guess you've never used graffiti then! They are actually quite
simple. Tap once for "punctuation shift" then draw them starting at
the bottom.
----------------------
Lots of great thoughts presented here. Thank you all, I appreciate
them and I've learned somethign new.
I can see how some type of XML like interface may work. But clearly
it has way too much overhead for effective data acquisition. So once
again we'll end up with some bastardization of a standard. Sounds
like embedded programming to me! :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for kicks, I'm going to throw this out to see if anything exists
that can meet it.
13,000 wh deliverable to @80% DOD, voltage sag to no less than 260 volts
300+ nominal voltage
300a peak discharge for 15 seconds, voltage sag to no less than 80%
100a continuous discharge
operate as above from -10 to 50 degrees C
800 pounds maximum weight
$1.75 per amp-hour maximum cost, including BMS, etc.
Uh, That would be a total pack cost of $75.83.
Ya, I think we'd all like that!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems like you've already figured out the best way to preserve their lives.
Just leave them out of the car and test them for years ;-)
The TS LiIon's seem to carry a lot of energy per pound, but you can't get
it out of them fast enough for EV work (low power). I'm taking an very
cautious approach--I've spent more on lab equipment to study them than on
the batteries!
Aside from being way to busy at work, I am still waiting for a good BMS
with data collection capabilities and a thermal management (heating and
cooling) before deploying. I at least want to know how I killed them... ;-)
Seriously, my main concern is that we learn how to take care of them to get
the long life (and economic benefit) that should be possible with them as
well as the extended range.
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar, I like your direction, stick to it.
As long as you continue to output the ASCII or byte data on RS232 you will
**always** be in good shape. Either add a hardware option, or leave it to
others to build a hardware option, to take that serial data and pump it out to
Bluetooth or USB. This will leave your device in the most flexible position.
So for those who want USB, just as you say, get a serial to USB adapter for
$20.
Want to bluetooth to send the data to a local PocketPC or Palm Pilot, or maybe
maybe someone wants to use firewire? No big deal, just get a protocol
converter or a wireless device to send the data out into the ether. This
stuff is available off the shelf.
As for the user interface, maybe provide a basic, easy to to build (for you)
interface, which works on a common platform. But this is not an absolute
requirement, if you publish the spec, I am **sure** there are a few geeks out
there (like me) who can easily interpret the data and display it on a whiz
bang user interface.
As an example, Siemens, transmits all its data (as binary) from the controller
to a monitor PC, via RS232. A couple of issues with their implementation:
1. they do not publish the protocol
2. the control program uses DOS, which works best on a 486
As for the protocol, we are slowly starting hack it. As for the 486, I think
they can step into the world of Windows types interfaces. Java works well with
MS, Mac and Unix and .Net works just fine with MS platforms.
The point is, by publishing your protocol and using the lowest common
denominator (RS232), it will have the most flexibility to support the most
amount of people.
That is how Linux, Java and the IBM PC became so darn popular.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> At 2:42 PM -0600 1-28-05, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >In regards to the serial connection, what about long term?
> >Years from now. Have you looked into USB or Firewire?
>
> USB is difficult for a small manufacturer to implement. I also don't
> know of any USB terminal programs. Remember, I'm trying to do this
> simple and inexpensive. I find people don't want to spend an extra
> thousand dollars just to adjust settings. :-)
> Fortunately there are many USB to RS-232 converters available for
> about $30. So us Apple users can still access it.
>
> And Firewire, as much of an Apple fan that I am, I can't see it being
> practical for such a use.
>
> Bluetooth maybe someday...
>
> At 6:07 PM -0500 1-28-05, Neon John wrote:
> > >I suspect I could allocate half a K of ROM to such a interface. Do
> >>you think XML is the kind of thing that could be implemented in 500
> >>bytes of ROM?
> >
> >No, definitely not. XML is one of those faddish solutions that is mostly
> >looking for a problem. Think "very verbose, slobbery HTML".
> >
> >XML is, IMHO, little more than a conspiracy to sell faster hardware, more
> >memory and more bandwidth. Definitely NOT applicable here.
>
> Sounds like an extension of Microshaft. :-)
>
> I appreciate your perspective John.
>
> ><1> file menu
> > <2> open file
> > <3> save file
> > <4> delete file
> > <5> rename file.
> >
> >Each command is also assigned a globally unique number. If there is a
> >user on the terminal, he can either enter the first letter of the command
> >or the number. frequently used commands that are down several menu levels
> >can be executed directly by number. I provide a command to change the
> >dialog from "verbose" (human readable) to "compact" (numbers only).
>
> Nice. I can see how it might get a bit inelegant if commands are
> added in the future. Once would like all the numbers to be
> consecutive, but that may change since I think it would be more
> important to keep hold of backward compatibility.
>
> At 3:13 PM -0800 1-28-05, Don Cameron wrote:
> >What I find is useful, if the controller or device could simply output
> >well-published ASCII information, then it is easy for a palm, PocketPC,
> >computer, etc. to read. XML is a little overkill for the output of a
> >device.
>
> That was my first thought.
> It is clearly a case of doing everything possible to offload the
> processing to the other processor since it is much more powerful and
> cheaper. I imagine a rev number that can be recalled so that the
> connecting device can know if it is up to date with the current menu.
>
> .....
>
> >XML is much nicer to read, and much easier for PC or PocketPC or Palms to
> >read, but at 9600 baud it will be slow. An this is only for two
> parameters.
> >
> >Now if you do run into memory constraints, scrap the ASCII and go straight
> >for binary output. A lot of devices do this and it is not too bad.
> >Continuing with the above example, in hex:
> >
> >56 00 F0
> >41 00 6E
> >56 00 F0
> >41 00 69
> >56 00 F0
> >41 00 64
>
> This is close to what I do now for the data acquisition function. I
> send ten lines of hex data per second. With some of my longer lines
> of data even this pushes the capacity of 9600 baud. But in my case
> the data is predefined with one value per byte. Once again it
> requires outside documentation. In the future, I'd like to make the
> command that starts the operation determine which data is on a line.
> This would allow more flexibility of the interface.
>
> At 3:22 PM -0800 1-28-05, Steve Marks wrote:
> >Wow, a whole half a K! I feel like a king! =o)
>
> Must be a windows programmer! :-)
> I just HAD to get that jibe in here somewhere. :-) Ooops, so sorry
> about the politics.. :-o
>
> >Actually, I suppose it *could* be implemented in half a K. The largest
> >consumer of memory would probably just be the tag names.
> >
> >I'm using the term XML here pretty loosely. Basically, I just mean
> >marked up text. For instance, the following might be a stream of XML
> >that an application could send the Zilla to tell it to set the Motor Amp
> >Limit to 800 amps, the Battery Voltage Limit to 170 volts and return
> >with the current Motor Voltage Limit:
> >
> ><SET><MAL>800</MAL><BVL>170</BVL></SET><GET><MVL/></GET>
> >
> >To which the Zilla might respond:
> >
> ><MVL>150</MVL>
> >
> >For this interface you'd need storage space for the SET, GET, MAL, BVL
> >and MVL tags plus some simple parsing code. Depending on the number of
> >tags and how terse you can keep their text, it might just fit in that
> >space.
>
> Hmmm, It looks a bit complicated. With my current format it only
> processes one command at a time (and it does not respond at all while
> it's busy driving). Your example command wouldn't even fit in my
> input buffer! But that's not saying it can't be done, I was just
> saving the large buffer space for the future EVIL bus control. There
> may still be room for both. Anyway, I suspect your system would work
> just as well running one command at a time. That would be easier to
> fit.
>
> >Note, since every XML operation begins with a '<' character, your
> >teletype interface could simply forward any string received to the XML
> >parser if it began with '<' and process the others the same as it does
> >now. The result would be two separate interfaces simultaneously
> >available.
>
> That's good, it certainly needs to be available to the text interface
> as a default. You have to realize that most customers have enough of
> a challenge learning the regular text interface. They would do better
> not knowing anything more exists.
>
> >The XML interface could even be tested through the teletype
> >interface by having the user type the XML in directly, though I can't
> >imagine the graffiti stroke that does <, / and > ;o)
>
> I guess you've never used graffiti then! They are actually quite
> simple. Tap once for "punctuation shift" then draw them starting at
> the bottom.
>
> ----------------------
>
> Lots of great thoughts presented here. Thank you all, I appreciate
> them and I've learned somethign new.
> I can see how some type of XML like interface may work. But clearly
> it has way too much overhead for effective data acquisition. So once
> again we'll end up with some bastardization of a standard. Sounds
> like embedded programming to me! :-)
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds like a great idea to me, since most amps have step-up DC/DC
converters inside. Why deal with the inefficiency of going down to 12V
and back up? But it would probably have to have a buck-mode DC/DC
inside anyway, and the amp itself be designed to work at a relatively
low voltage (low for EVs, say 60V - but with that voltage you aren't
going to "blow all other systems away" either) but its power supply
would accept input over a wide range (72-400V or so). It would first
convert the incoming voltage to the lower voltage (and achieve power
isolation in the process), and run the amp with that.
Or, maybe it would be possible to design a class D amp which actually
works directly with a wide voltage range, because the amp itself is
doing the switching; as long as the waveform peak-to-peak which you are
sending to the speakers is less than the nice clean DC input voltage
(which of course has been conditioned with lots of filtering), it
should work. I would call this design the "bad boy" of amplifiers.
:-) If it ended up with no isolation from input to output, you'd have
to be especially careful not to inadvertently connect the ground of the
vehicle with either side of the pack, through the amp's input or output
connections. Better to feed it with an optical input, I guess.
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is way out in dream-land, but a quiz just got canceled at school
> which gave my brain some free-time. If you wanted to put in an
> awesome stereo system, you'd have to get beefier DC/DC's...or why
> couldn't someone put out a high-voltage audio amp? Anyone know of
> something like that? I could see a niche market there - EV's with
> kicking stereo systems. It would be the new fad :) Every low-rider
> would be selling their rig to get an EV. Who cares if it only goes
> 20 miles, it blows all the other stereo systems away!
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
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I watch the ammeter like a hawk. I am monitoring battery amps. I think
it's time to reduce ratio and place the meter in the motor loop. Lawrence
Rhodes..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: ETEK problem found.
would it be worth monitoring the motor temperature ?
Probably not, but it WOULD be worth installing a squirrel cage fan as
Roderick suggested. A tiny bit of forced air cooling goes a whole heck of
a long way toward keeping a motor cool. That and he definitely needs to
improve his gear ratio. He is clearly overloading the motor when
hillclimbing. I don't believe he kept his motor under the rated amp limit
as he thinks. Did he have an ammeter on it at the time? If he didn't, he
doesn't know what kind of power the motor was under when it failed.
Lawrence: if you want a super reliable ride, spend the money to replace
your motor (instead of trying to bodge something together to limp it down
the road under repair), add the fan as Roderick suggested, and improve
your gear ratio. If you had done this to begin with, your first motor
would still be kickin, most likely.
There are definitely times when cobbing together a cheap/free ride out of
used parts is advantageous. The smaller, slower, lower power scooters are
much more forgiving. Not rides at these power levels though. Do it right
from the start, and you'll have a ride you can count on.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
The ETEK is super simple to disassemble. Take of the brushes. They are
held in with three 6mm bolts. (mark the 10mm bolts placement and timing)
Take out the nine 10mm bolts. (one is for case alignment) Take the E ring
from the output shaft and use a sledge hammer on the output shaft to crack
the case. It is very precision. You don't have to hit the shaft very hard.
(hit it on the end) This exposes the rotor. You could get to any material
that got into the motor or inspect for connector damage. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: ETEK problem found. (extreem cooling?)
Sorry to hear about your ETEK failure.
Does anyone happen to have photos of the insides of these motors?
How about a proper dis-assembly method?
I've been thinking about ETEK cooling methods, the most obvious
method being a fan attached to the brush housing, as Roderick warns.
This method is a must have, and good for everyday commuting. but...
What if you were to pre-cool the motor! Say by packing dry ice
(solid CO2 at -109 F (-78 C)) arround the motor! Of course you
need proper ventilation so that the sublimating CO2 gasses don't
build up in a passanger compartment. How well would this work?
I'm thinking that for starters the motor will have to
rise about 200 degrees before it even begins to get hot.
Also, does the lower temp increase the conductivity of
the windings, so you start out with better effeciency?
How would these low temps effect the megnetics of the motor?
L8r
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
So basically you want a battery that will offer a true 50Ah at a 2C
continuous discharge rate, be able to sustain 6C pulse rates, that weighs
less than 30 lbs, with BMS for $87 or less? Don't we all!
What about volume restrictions or life cycle requirements?
Now if you meant $1.75/wh, I know of a battery that can get pretty close.
Marc Kohler
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:13 PM
Subject: My Battery Pack Specifications
Just for kicks, I'm going to throw this out to see if anything exists
that can meet it.
13,000 wh deliverable to @80% DOD, voltage sag to no less than 260 volts
300+ nominal voltage
300a peak discharge for 15 seconds, voltage sag to no less than 80%
100a continuous discharge
operate as above from -10 to 50 degrees C
800 pounds maximum weight
$1.75 per amp-hour maximum cost, including BMS, etc.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Hi Steve,
> I've learned a new trick!
> I was just discussing this with another customer who has a
> preprogrammed Palm from me. He mentioned that he had the same problem
> and was trying out all kinds of things. He eventually stumbled upon
> this solution:
>
> Press the lower right button on the Palm. (yes, the notepad button)
>
That works , !!! This is great , Thanks , I don't know how this could be
better , (now that its working ), can set everything , its small , but I
wouldn't have guessed the lower right button. I did try quite a few:-)
> It's as simple as that. When I programmed the Palms, I also set the
> settings so that pressing the lower right button brings up ptelnet
> instead of the notepad.
I plugged my e meter into the palm and was surprised to see all the numbers
flying by , there they all were , amp volts and ah , all at the same time ,
, they were really to small to read , , could the palm be used to get data
over an hour and store it from the e meter. .
Steve Clunn
What I didn't know is that when you press
> that button it also sends a "return" or "enter", I don't know which.
> But it works and doesn't require remembering which way to make the
> slash mark in Graffiti.
>
> hth,
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
thanks for your reply and explanations, this really helped.
One more question below:
>> 3. the motor can be run from a higher voltage battery pack than
>> the motor rated voltage?
>Much higher!!
> On our high end controllers... aka the Zilla line of controllers... you
>can program the peak motor voltage, and that can be a LOT less that the
>battery voltage. This keeps a 48 volt motor from fireballing it's comm if
>you have a 200 to 400 volt battery pack. This is s very nice design
>feature... and expensive.
Can I achieve the same thing with a motor where I cannot set the voltage
but only the max output current and the max. duty cycle? I was hoping that
by capping the duty cycle at e.g. 75% I cap the max. voltage?
> >
> > Related: Could I run my 12V powerwheels motors with a 36V controller
> > and 36V batteries limited to something like 33% duty cycle?
> >
> Sure could !! and if you wanted to rip up the drive train,
> Why limit the
> PWM.
Well, the idea of using it at a low duty cycle would be to
prolong the life of the gears and also to keep my kiddo from
drag racing around the yard and getting hurt (I need to make
sure my elec-trak is faster than his power wheels :)
Markus
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
thanks for your reply and explanation.
> I think a couple of people out there have run the ET drive
> motors at 48
> volts. The larger ETs (E20, C185, etc) use field weakening to get the
> top speeds, so you'd actually need to control your field to bring it
> down well below 36 volts for the same top speeds. Also note that in
> normal operation the drive motor will reach 10-12 (or 15?) HP peaks.
Yes I noticed that, the peaks are for very short duration but
impressive current flows (I've seen more than 400A when accellerating
from a dead stop or when going uphill with full field weakening)
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awsome, so does the output shaft slide out of the bearing?
Or does the bearing come out of the housing?
How about the other end of the shaft and it's bearing?
Would it be possible to slide to rotor/comm off the shaft?
So that maybe you could replace it with a longer shaft? <wink> <wink>
L8r
Ryan
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The ETEK is super simple to disassemble. Take of the brushes. They are
held in with three 6mm bolts. (mark the 10mm bolts placement and
timing) Take out the nine 10mm bolts. (one is for case alignment) Take
the E ring from the output shaft and use a sledge hammer on the output
shaft to crack the case. It is very precision. You don't have to hit
the shaft very hard. (hit it on the end) This exposes the rotor. You
could get to any material that got into the motor or inspect for
connector damage. Lawrence Rhodes........
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--- Begin Message ---
It seems like I took almost the opposite approach - I hate to "waste" cycles
I paid for only testing, converting charge into heat. I prefer to use the
cycles doing car trips to work, etc.. So I just charged them slowly and
carefully the first time, and started using them (100 A-Hr. and 200 A-Hr.
cells).
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:37 PM
Subject: RE: Insight, NiZn or LiIon batteries
Seems like you've already figured out the best way to preserve their
lives. Just leave them out of the car and test them for years ;-)
The TS LiIon's seem to carry a lot of energy per pound, but you can't get
it out of them fast enough for EV work (low power). I'm taking an very
cautious approach--I've spent more on lab equipment to study them than on
the batteries!
Aside from being way to busy at work, I am still waiting for a good BMS
with data collection capabilities and a thermal management (heating and
cooling) before deploying. I at least want to know how I killed them...
;-)
Seriously, my main concern is that we learn how to take care of them to
get the long life (and economic benefit) that should be possible with them
as well as the extended range.
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I plugged my e meter into the palm and was surprised to see all the numbers
flying by , there they all were , amp volts and ah , all at the same time ,
, they were really to small to read , , could the palm be used to get data
over an hour and store it from the e meter. .
Steve Clunn
I'm not sure about the hour, but there are things that can be done
with the EVDash program that Pete Ohler wrote and generously
provides. You can get the program for free on his website at:
http://ohler.com/palm/EVDash.html
I was never able to get it to work in my car. I think my E-meter is
too old and the data stream was not what it expected. Or maybe the OS
in my Palm was too new.
You'll need to set up the Palm Desktop application on your computer
to get the program into the Palm as well.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So basically you want a battery that will offer a true 50Ah at a 2C
> continuous discharge rate, be able to sustain 6C pulse rates, that weighs
> less than 30 lbs, with BMS for $87 or less? Don't we all!
> What about volume restrictions or life cycle requirements?
>
> Now if you meant $1.75/wh, I know of a battery that can get pretty close.
> Marc Kohler
Wanna go the Tzero route? 2Ah 18650 cells for $5.20 each, 5# for 50 (don't know
how much the solder tabs adds to that weight):
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=990 - adding a
$4.50 BMS for each 7.2V-worth of batteries makes it a buck per wh -- less if
each BMS can keep a number of paralleled cells safe. 1000 cells weigh about
105#, for a 144V/50Ah pack with a 125A peak (not 6C capable). If you can keep
up with the soldering, we can hope Sony sells their 26650VT cells for a
reasonable price and add a hybrid lithium pack to give an occasional 20C burst.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
US Pre-1964 dimes, quarters and halves are made of .900 fine silver. You
should be able to buy these fairly cheap at your local coin or pawn shop.
Just ask to look at their .90 % or "junk" silver coins. I would think that
5-6X face value would be sufficient, depending on the silver market. You
might even have some laying around in your change jar or a collector
friend/relative that has an extra. Look for early `60s Roosevelt, Washington
or Franklins. Some Morgans too, but if you need contacts this big you should
be named "Berube". Anyway, just please use a common date. I would hate to
think you took my advice and ended up destroying a rare coin. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: homen made contactor
does any one have suggestions on where I could get
affordable contacts to make my own contactor relay? I
have a few solenoids laying around and $50+ seems a
little much for something I should be able to make
myself easy enough .....
BCB
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Until there's an actual price on the 20C cells from Sony, there are these:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJSJ2&P=ML but that's
$3.65/wh before adding BMS.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Couldn't find the auction you were referring to. I did see some outhouses
going cheap and a strange looking plasma cutter in "Humptulips" but no
electric truck anywhere in Wa. Got an item #? David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "billb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:54 AM
Subject: 1999 electro truck
Hi Folks there is a '99 72 volt electro truck on the gsa web site
http://gsaauctions.gov in Wa. closing 2/1. I wonder if it could be
improved by going to 96 or even 120 volt? Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, Mr. Local TrannyRebuilder with 25+ years in the
business is firmly convinced that my shaft is just a
bit long.
In the Civic, there is a pilot bearing in the
middle of the flywheel, and he thinks that the shaft
is mashed up to the splines, causing stress on the
whole shaft, and that this would account for the
whine/noises at 25+ mph in first, and when under
greater load. Sooo, I either:
file down the shaft, or
use washers to space the motor slightly further from
the tranny (1/16" or so).
If I file, I sure as heck can't add more metal after
taking it down a shade.
If I space, I don't like the additional wigglability
this might give the tranny. Plus, I'd need to caulk
between the bell housing and adapter plate, which
would look kind of weak, not to mention washers
sticking out in 8-10 places around the bell...
That leaves me leaning toward the file.
Anybody have additional thoughts?
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque
> rotation ?s
>
>
> > Thanks, this is helpful. Unfortunately, the sound
> is
> > not present until under significant RPMs, or high
> > load.
> I'm wondering if it might be the tranny ,
>
> > These conditions are not met when on a 12V run.
>
> 24v will spin a 8 or 9 pritty fast without a load .
>
> > Otherwise we'd have noticed the problem before
> > installing in the vehicle...
>
> This is not somthing thats going to take a lot of
> work once you have the
> motor out. replace one bolt at a time with the
> smaller bolts and tighten ,
> so its in the same place , then run up to a good
> speed , adding batteries
> one at a time , Don't over speed your motor !!! 36v
> is fast and will need
> the tranny drag to slow it down.
>
>
>
> > (;-p
> > --- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I would consider this last resort, but better
> than
> > > throwing away the
> > > > adapter. An SCCA publication recommended doing
> > > this, and Steve Clunn
> > > > does something similar on his videos
> > > (http://www.grassrootsev.com).
> > > > Drill out the tranny bolt and pin holes
> oversize.
> > >
> > > You don't even need to drill the holes bigger
> just
> > > use smaller bolts and
> > > remove the pins for the test. Run the motor
> first
> > > with the set up you have
> > > so you know how it sounds. Have the motor
> sitting
> > > with tail shaft pointing
> > > toward the ground and tranny sitting on top , I
> > > start off with 12v and then
> > > 24v. You do the tapping while the motor is
> running
> > > so you can hear the
> > > difference. You may also have to release the
> clutch
> > > a few time to get it
> > > centered.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolt the motor and
> > > > tranny together tight enough it doesn't slip,
> but
> > > loose enough a
> > > > mallet can budge them. Run the motor, tap the
> > > tranny, and keep doing
> > > > the clutch until the noise is minimized. Then
> > > tighten the bolts all
> > > > the way. Optionally, you could drill and drive
> in
> > > new locating pins
> > > > if you wanted to make the fit repeatable.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> search. Learn more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> >
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:04 PM -0800 1-28-05, Bob Bath wrote:
Well, Mr. Local TrannyRebuilder with 25+ years in the
business is firmly convinced that my shaft is just a
bit long.
.......
Anybody have additional thoughts?
A file is pretty slow and it's hard to get in the bell housing.
A grinder is much faster. :-)
This is a common problem. Measure twice and then use the grinder...
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
