EV Digest 4065
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Buss bars for Electravan
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: My Battery Pack Specifications
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: serial terminal - zilla
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: serial terminal - zilla
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Buss bars for Electravan
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) What's the pitch?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Buss bars for Electravan
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What's the pitch?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: What's the pitch?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What's the pitch?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Aux battery drain & charging rates
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Aux battery drain & charging rates
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Aux battery drain & charging rates
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: serial terminal - zilla
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What's the pitch?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) EVLN(CSmonitor looks at Tango & PIHs)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EVLN(EVs go where polluters can't)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> John Wayland - this post is for you! :)
>
> This is way out in dream-land, but a quiz just got canceled at school which
> gave my brain some free-time. If you wanted to put in an awesome stereo
> system, you'd have to get beefier DC/DC's...or why couldn't someone put out a
> high-voltage audio amp? Anyone know of something like that? I could see a
> niche market there - EV's with kicking stereo systems. It would be the new
> fad :) Every low-rider would be selling their rig to get an EV. Who cares
> if it only goes 20 miles, it blows all the other stereo systems away!
>
> -Ryan
As some have pointed out, 12V based high end car amps already use high voltage,
via
built-in DC-DC converters that step thing up to + and - power supply rails. In
addition,
the power supply is regulated in most cases. Running off an EV's HV pack,
though it sounds
good on the surface, is a bad idea. The best sounding amps are usually class AB
that need
+ and - supplies, so you'd have to use a tapped pack, like Steve Clunn said:
> I was thinking about this a while ago , if you used a 120v pack , split in
> the middle you would have 60v + and - which would make a good amp power
> supply .
>
>
The EV pack swings wildly, in the case of a 120 vdc pack, from lows of 80V
under high
current draws, to highs of 150V under charge. Because of this, the supply would
have to be
regulated, big time. Audio circuits are very sensitive to electrical noise in
the power
supply, too. This would then, involve DC-DC conversion of some kind...you've
now lost one
of the advantages you were looking for, over the conventional 12V based car
amp. While
you're now converting via a DC-DC, the tapped pack thing is no longer needed,
as it can be
done in the conversion process.
Yes, it seems like a lot of lost efficiency going from a high voltage EV pack,
through a
DC-DC to make 12V, then through another DC-DC inside the car amp to get things
back up to
high voltage again, but inside the car amp conversion process, a lot of needed
filtering,
isolation, and power manipulation is taking place. So, even if you started with
a high
voltage power source, you'd still need to spit it plus and minus, regulate it,
filter it,
etc., etc. The conversion type EV already has to have a 12V source to run
stuff, and,
there's hundreds of high quality car amps designed to run this way, so from a
practical
standpoint, it's a lot easier to keep things the way they are.
That said.....for my 'Hyster from Hell' project, I've got this 2-3 kw audio
power level
I'm shooting for. At one ton, I've got all the battery power on board I need to
make BIG
power for long periods of time. The problem as I see it, is making 12V at very
high
current for the high power car audio amps, from the 24V forklift battery. It
would take
some very hefty DC-DC converters, on the order of 4-6 kw of power. I 'could'
tap the
battery, as the inter-cell straps are all external, but the old bug-a-boo of
unevenly
discharging cells would come into play. I've got several car audio sponsors
I'll be
working with, so I'm hoping a few out-of-the-box engineers might be able to
convince
production managers to let them design special amps for this project that take
in 24V
instead of 12V via re-wound power supply magnetics.
With max current draws of around 500 amps for traction and lift, the voltage
swings of
such a BIG low voltage battery aren't anything like a HV pack of small
batteries in a road
going EV being subjected to 1000+ amp discharges. Quite frankly, when doing any
serious
work with the forklift where battery sags down to 21V are possible, I'll have
the stereo
turned off to keep my attention focused for obvious safety reasons.
In any EVent, when completed, this EV's audio system will be something to
experience! The
elevated WOW (wall of woofers) hit with 2-3kw, should make for great chest
compression.
The split hydraulic soundstage cabinet will be crystal clear and LOUD! It would
be way
cool to have it ready for Woodburn as the party tunes, but that might be a bit
optimistic
for a time line.
Now, I've just got to come up with a small but very heavy duty trailer that can
handle the
7200 lb. beast and about 1000 lbs. of audio gear, and find a buddy with a stout
tow rig!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would be way
cool to have it ready for Woodburn as the party tunes, but that might be a
bit optimistic
for a time line.
See Ya.....John Wayland
And remember John, those attending Woodburn are there to see the White
Zombie dust off a Viper. Last year you couldn't even keep up with Otmar :-)
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a roll of 1"-wide copper strip, don't remember the thickness, but it is
suppose to equal 1/0. Sitting around long enough to turn very dark, but should
still work. I felt unsafe in my ElectraVan on the freeway, and sold it because
I couldn't find replacement parts, but it should do fine in NEV use. I don't
like to work at forming safe and efficient connectors, so I prefer welding
cable and lugs, but the strip is a cheaper alternative. Anyone in the market
for it, let me know: cowtown @ spamcop.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>www.metricmind.com sells Li-ion cells for $2.00/Ah in quantities > 100.
>Since each cell is 3.6V nominal, that's 3.6Wh for $2.00, or about $0.55/Wh.
>If you can find a BMS for 20% the cost of the batteries, then you'd pay
>about $0.66/Wh.
>
<snip>
>
>Does this meet the specs in your original post? Pretty close, except
>for the Wh deliverable (32,000 vs. 13,000).
I only need 60 miles per charge, so paying for extra miles is rather
pointless, and makes the car heavier for no good reason.
>Original Spec: This method:
>300V system 360V system
>100A continuous That's 1.1C for 90Ah cells--a bit high
> But why is 100A continuous necessary
> at 300V?
Not at 300v, but at the end of a run when the pack voltage has sagged to
260v. Accounting for controller and motor losses, 100a at 260v puts down
about 27-30hp to the wheel, which is just enough to move a 3000# car at
highway speeds.
David Thompson
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--- Begin Message ---
NOPE!!
you set the the hair ball for 1000 amps, and then flip the 1k/2K bit and
you get 2000 amp on the 2K... Ummm this I know about .....
Setting the 1k to 2k specs won't work, it rejects your inputs.
But ware of jumping to a 2k when the Hairball was setup for a 1k.
At least one of the rear axles on Gone Postal was sent to the Great broken
parts bin because of this.
I don't mess with the 1k/2k bit anymore.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: serial terminal - zilla
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:34 PM
> Subject: serial terminal - zilla
>
>
> > With this topic about the serial communications and the Palm, I thought
> >I'd chime in. I find the Zilla serial interface totally adequate.
>
> Me to , now that I know how to enter things , I set my battery amp to 150
> the other day to see what that was like , with motor amp at 1000 it still
> had the same , good pickup from a stand still , reset it to 500 where I
> think the golf cart batteries will be happy. All easy to do. I was
wandering
> how the hair ball relates to the controller. If you had a 2k hv hair ball
> and a 1k lv controller and didn't have the setting right for the 1k would
it
> try to get 2k out of the 1k controller, .
> steve clunn
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Zinc Air isn't a fuel cell. It is more battery. They used Fuel cell I
think to avoid the "Battery negatives". This technology is fully
rechargable but every single maker keeps the charging difficult so you are
forced to spend large sums of money for it to work. This works for bus
fleets where a million dollar charging system makes sense. It doesn't make
sense for a scooter even if it could go 500 miles per charge. Thats no
kidding. Zinc Air works. If someone developed a charger for single or even
three to 5 vehicle use I'd buy one. It's just an electrolosis machine.
This technology has twice the energy density of Lithium. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
Another company bites the dust. Zinc air is a great technology.
Maybe for batteries....
Metallic Power was developing zinc fuel cell technology, and had raised
over $40M in venture funding...<SNIP>...but had been unable to
manufacture it economically.
Another example that throwing large sums of money at fool cells will not
automagically make them cheap to produce.
How much could have been accomplished if that $40M had been spent on pure
battery technology development? It's heartbreaking, really. There is SO
MUCH money available to throw at fool cells, yet companies that are
PROVING that BEV technology is reliable, practical, and cost effective
(with volume production) continue to scrape by on tablescraps with no big
investment in the space.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The big problem with Zinc Air is the refueling structure and the companies
all trying to control it. Greed is what is killing Zinc Air. LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
I attempted to get hold of them a while back. The
spec's looked good but their plans had holes the size
of the moon. They were basing off of main stream
acceptance and a refueling structure that was non
exsistant. Had they proposed it as a battery instead
and sold to EV'er I think they would have done quite
well. They only wanted to sell to Auto OEM's which
didn't want electric vehicle in the first place.
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another company bites the dust. Zinc air is a
great technology.
Maybe for batteries....
> Metallic Power was developing zinc fuel cell
technology, and had
> raised over $40M in venture funding...<SNIP>...but
had been unable to
> manufacture it economically.
Another example that throwing large sums of money at
fool cells will not
automagically make them cheap to produce.
How much could have been accomplished if that $40M
had been spent on
pure battery technology development? It's
heartbreaking, really. There
is SO MUCH money available to throw at fool cells,
yet companies that
are PROVING that BEV technology is reliable,
practical, and cost
effective (with volume production) continue to
scrape by on tablescraps
with no big investment in the space.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:20 AM -0500 1-30-05, Steve Clunn wrote:
I was wandering
how the hair ball relates to the controller. If you had a 2k hv hair ball
and a 1k lv controller and didn't have the setting right for the 1k would it
try to get 2k out of the 1k controller, .
No, the controller will never go over its rating.
I've tried to standardize the parts on the Zillas as much as
possible. Part of this means that the Hairball and the control board
inside the Zillas are identical, run the same code and they are even
calibrated the same for 1K and 2K. The only difference is that the
shunt inside the Z2K controller is twice as big as the one in the Z1K.
Anytime the Hairball requests a amp value of 200, the controller puts
out full current. The Z1K reads the 200 at 5 amps per count for 1000
amps, and the Z2K reads it at 10 amps pre count for 2000 amps.
The Z1K scaling option in the Hairball only changes how that value is
displayed to the user. You can toggle it and see the displayed values
change. So if you set the bit for a Z2K (scaling off) and set the
current to 2000 amps while running a Z1K, you will only get 1000 amps.
On the other hand, what happened to Gone Postal is that they had it
hooked to a Z2K controller while the Hairball was set for a Z1K. In
that case entering 1000 amps on the terminal made the Z2K put out
2000 amps.
Hope this makes sense. When in doubt, listen to Rich:
At 11:45 AM -0800 1-30-05, Rich Rudman wrote:
I don't mess with the 1k/2k bit anymore.....
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Here's some precut copper straps. Only 3/4" wide though.
What if you stacked them 2 or 3 high? Would that have the
same effect as multi strand wire?
http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm
Belleville washers:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/hardware.shtml
I'd use this shear to cut copper sheet:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38413
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are kind of right.
Zinc air is a very good idea... IF the recharging is taken care of.
The point is it is not a well done slick, Pump Da Juice back into the Can
kind of recharge.
It takes the same efforts that extracting Zn from it's Mineral ores does.
High heat reducing atmospheres... Fluxes... and fumes. Most of us don't
want a Zinc smelter in our back yard, even if it is small and cute and well
designed. This is Zn Air's down fall. Recharge is a electro mechanical
Bitch!
I read through thier stuff about 4 years a go when they looked like a
"Coming Thing". Somebody promised me a Battery stack, it never got here... I
never got to see it work.
Some day something like it will make it. It's cheap and works, If you can
get the Cans safley from user to processor. No really deadly stuff, just
Koh.... That's industrial DrainO ... for those that don't know.
Same stuff NiCds use and NiZn, and AgNi.
So.. it's going to take a different design, and distribution philosiphy.
And funding, like... steady growth and little if no VC...The Big Venture
Capital guys like massive growth and bail at the first sign of
problems.
There is no question the chemistry can store the amphours... and return it
slowly but sureley....And some EVs can take advantage of this. But not in
the normal sense. All the range runs done on Zn air had Blue smoke and
mirrors... to cover the fact that a Golf cart at 25 Mph... could move for
100s of miles...making about the same power as a good bicyclist makes....
100s of lbs of Zinc, many Kwhrs, but at only a couple of Kw delivery rates.
Umm not for the main stream....
It sure looked good. And the funding and the engineering looked top notch...
And you have to ask why they failed???
Maybe the recharge procedure was not engineered in a profitable manner??? It
may not be able to be done in a "profitable" manner...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
> Zinc Air isn't a fuel cell. It is more battery. They used Fuel cell I
> think to avoid the "Battery negatives". This technology is fully
> rechargable but every single maker keeps the charging difficult so you are
> forced to spend large sums of money for it to work. This works for bus
> fleets where a million dollar charging system makes sense. It doesn't
make
> sense for a scooter even if it could go 500 miles per charge. Thats no
> kidding. Zinc Air works. If someone developed a charger for single or
even
> three to 5 vehicle use I'd buy one. It's just an electrolosis machine.
> This technology has twice the energy density of Lithium. Lawrence
> Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I started the eLamby project, I bought a number of 40-pitch, 7/8"-bore
sprockets to use on the Etek; I didn't find out I had ordered wrong until I got
the rear wheel mounted. The 40-pitch drive sprockets have teeth 1/2" apart, but
the chain and rear sprocket had a 0.4" spacing. I even ordered more sprockets,
forgetting how they are classified, assuming 40-pitch meant 0.4" tooth spacing!
Before I make any more mistakes like this, what is the pitch if the teeth are
0.4" apart? Also, if anyone needs sprockets, my unuseable ones are 7/8" bore,
40 pitch, 30, 28, 26, 23, 21, 19, 17, 15, and 13 teeth count. Right now they're
$10-each-paperweights.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here's some precut copper straps. Only 3/4" wide though.
> What if you stacked them 2 or 3 high? Would that have the
> same effect as multi strand wire?
>
> http://www.unitednuclear.com/chem.htm
Quite pricey at $1.50/5" length.
Call around to your local metal suppliers and you'll most likely find at
least one that carries copper bar stock. 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4" thick in
widths from 1/2" to 2" are commonly stocked sizes.
Cutting it to length is not a huge undertaking, though a shear is
definitely convenient. It is drilling the bolt holes that can be a
pain...
If you can't find a source of copper bar stock locally, you could always
look into buying copper stock or busbars made to your needs from Storm
Copper: <http://www.stormcopper.com>. They can plate it, and can
fabricate/supply flexible (braided) interconnects as well.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
40 pitch for 1/2" sounds right too me...
http://www.kartworld.com/Chain/chain_size_how_to.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: What's the pitch?
When I started the eLamby project, I bought a number of
40-pitch, 7/8"-bore
sprockets to use on the Etek; I didn't find out I had
ordered wrong until I got
the rear wheel mounted. The 40-pitch drive sprockets have
teeth 1/2" apart, but
the chain and rear sprocket had a 0.4" spacing. I even
ordered more sprockets,
forgetting how they are classified, assuming 40-pitch meant
0.4" tooth spacing!
Before I make any more mistakes like this, what is the pitch
if the teeth are
0.4" apart? Also, if anyone needs sprockets, my unuseable
ones are 7/8" bore,
40 pitch, 30, 28, 26, 23, 21, 19, 17, 15, and 13 teeth
count. Right now they're
$10-each-paperweights.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> When I started the eLamby project, I bought a number of
> 40-pitch, 7/8"-bore sprockets to use on the Etek; I didn't
> find out I had ordered wrong until I got the rear wheel
> mounted. The 40-pitch drive sprockets have teeth 1/2" apart,
> but the chain and rear sprocket had a 0.4" spacing. I even
> ordered more sprockets, forgetting how they are classified,
> assuming 40-pitch meant 0.4" tooth spacing! Before I make any
> more mistakes like this, what is the pitch if the teeth are
> 0.4" apart?
#35 is 3/8" (0.375") pitch; #40 & 41 are 1/2" (0.500") pitch. Are you
sure it is 0.400"?
A useful online reference for this sort of information is
<http://www.martinsprocket.com/>. Go to the online catalog and to the
appropriate seciton.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this got me when i was working with my etek
living in the UK #40 chain is not a common size
i had to get a new rear 50 tooth sprocket machined up from scratch
if i'd had some sense i should have got metric sprockets and bored them to fit
the etek
ah hindsight
how much cash have i wasted over the years ?
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
40 pitch for 1/2" sounds right too me...
http://www.kartworld.com/Chain/chain_size_how_to.htm
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "EV Discussion List"
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: What's the pitch?
When I started the eLamby project, I bought a number of
40-pitch, 7/8"-bore
sprockets to use on the Etek; I didn't find out I had
ordered wrong until I got
the rear wheel mounted. The 40-pitch drive sprockets have
teeth 1/2" apart, but
the chain and rear sprocket had a 0.4" spacing. I even
ordered more sprockets,
forgetting how they are classified, assuming 40-pitch meant
0.4" tooth spacing!
Before I make any more mistakes like this, what is the pitch
if the teeth are
0.4" apart? Also, if anyone needs sprockets, my unuseable
ones are 7/8" bore,
40 pitch, 30, 28, 26, 23, 21, 19, 17, 15, and 13 teeth
count. Right now they're
$10-each-paperweights.
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought they were concentrating on stationary power generators instead of
cars in the short-term, though. I guess that market didn't work out either.
Gee, I wonder how a Zn-Air/PbA hybrid would have performed?
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all!
Had an interesting thing happen on CivicWithACord.
Used for short hops all week, then not at all
Sat./Sun., and woke to a dead aux. batt. on Monday.
While it is possible I left a door open (dome lt.) or
radio on, it is not likely.
What I'm wondering is whether (since I did 1/3 mi.
trips all week) the aux. batt never got a decent
charge the whole week, and the weekend current drain
from e-meter and stereo presets were enough to
completely deaden it. The DCDC is a 300 watt DCP
model, but the question here is how long it would take
in minutes to completely charge that aux. battery.
Yes, the DCP is set up for 14.1V when the car is
on.
Over two days, I can go from 12.6 to 12V, but that
doesn't explain going to 1V in 3 days.
Brilliant ideas, here? (Other than the obvious, which
is that I left lights on)...
Thanks,
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The DCDC is a 300 watt DCP
> model, but the question here is how long it would take
> in minutes to completely charge that aux. battery.
> Yes, the DCP is set up for 14.1V when the car is
> on.
Note that the DC/DC is supposed to be supplying all of your 12V system
loads when the car is operating; if it doesn't, then the 12V battery
will be drained to some extent each time the car is driven and will
never be charged unless the DC/DC is left running when the car is
parked. At this time of year, you may be placing enough demands on the
12V system that the DC/DC cannot keep up when the car is in operation
(e.g. main contactor draw, lights, stereo, wipers, heater fan, rear
defroster, etc.). 300W is just a tad over 21A @ 14.1V.
> Over two days, I can go from 12.6 to 12V, but that
> doesn't explain going to 1V in 3 days.
It might... a fully charged 12V PbA should be 12.6-13.2V. At no (very
light) load, 12V indicates the battery is pretty much flat. If your
battery can be taken to 12V in 2 days, then it is not unbelievable that
an additional day is enough to take it down to nothing... the voltage
falls *really* quickly once you get below about 1.7V/cell.
> Brilliant ideas, here?
- check the load on the 12V system when the car is parked (DC/DC off) to
see if it is unexpectedly high. The E-Meter is something like 200mA
with the display on, less with it off. The radio should be much less, a
few 10s of mA; call 0.25A a believable upper bound: this is 12Ah in
48hr, how big is your 12V battery?
- check the capacity of the 12V battery to see if it is unusally low
(charge fully, then discharge at a known rate (e.g. turn on the
headlights) to 1.75V/cell (10V) and compare to the expected performance.
- check the 12V system load with the car on to see if the DC/DC has any
excess capacity left to charge the battery. If you have an ammeter good
for 30-50A, great, if not, just fully charge the 12V battery, then watch
the 12V system voltage while adding loads with the DC/DC on. As soon as
the voltage falls below the DC/DC's set 14.1V, you know it has gone into
current limit and is supplying everything it has just to keep up with
the loads (in fact you know that the 12V battery is discharging to take
up the slack).
Cheers,
Roger.
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This same happen to me with both my cars, a ICE and my EV.
The ICE, a back up car I drove during a one year complete OVERHAUL of the
EV, the 12 volt battery always needed to be charge with a OUTBOARD charger
about 2 times a year.
The problem is, that my driving distance is about 1/2 mile for about 4
minutes. This is not enough charging time at 13.5 to 14 volts on a 12 volt
battery. So I have to live with that fact for the ICE.
While my ICE is not been driven, sometimes up to 6 months and sometimes over
a year. I plug in a BATTERY MAINTAINER that is install on board, that AUTO
maintains the battery voltage all the time to 13.5 volts.
I did the a complete OVERHAUL of the EV, something like you see on the TV
program OVERHAUL, of which I different technicians come into my shop to do
different phases of the rebuilt.
We remove the ENGINE which was the hybrid part of the EV and we made it a EV
only. We install a ACCESSORY DRIVE SYSTEM that was driven off the Main
motor. Instead of a standard alternator, we used a Delco Inverter
Alternator, that output charge voltage can be adjusted from 13.5 to 15
volts.
I have 6 sets of 12 volt gages on this system to monitor what the data is.
Each set, a volt and amp meter. Measures the following:
The amperes and voltage from the Alt-Inv. to the battery.
The amperes and voltage from the Alt-Inv. to vehicle 12 volt loads.
The amperes and voltage from the battery to the Inverter.
In testing first at 13.5 , 14 and 14.5 volts charging. There was not enough
charging time at a 1/2 mile drive, so it is set at 15 volts.
It's been set at 15 volts for over 2 years now, with maximum travels to
about 10 miles at one shot. There has been no problem with the 12 volt
system.
In this EV, I can select from a on board dash switching system, 12 volt
power only from the 12 volt battery, while the Inverter is shut down. I can
select either the motor run a 500 rpm idle to run the inverter or let it go
to 0 rpm where the battery now runs all the 12 volts systems, which is about
40 amps.
In my first EV, the 12 volt battery had a small separate 12 volt maintainer,
that was part of onboard charger at that time. It used a motor-generator
power by the main battery to provide 12 volt power.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:19 PM
Subject: Aux battery drain & charging rates
> Hey all!
> Had an interesting thing happen on CivicWithACord.
> Used for short hops all week, then not at all
> Sat./Sun., and woke to a dead aux. batt. on Monday.
> While it is possible I left a door open (dome lt.) or
> radio on, it is not likely.
> What I'm wondering is whether (since I did 1/3 mi.
> trips all week) the aux. batt never got a decent
> charge the whole week, and the weekend current drain
> from e-meter and stereo presets were enough to
> completely deaden it. The DCDC is a 300 watt DCP
> model, but the question here is how long it would take
> in minutes to completely charge that aux. battery.
> Yes, the DCP is set up for 14.1V when the car is
> on.
> Over two days, I can go from 12.6 to 12V, but that
> doesn't explain going to 1V in 3 days.
> Brilliant ideas, here? (Other than the obvious, which
> is that I left lights on)...
> Thanks,
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Madman wrote:
>NOPE!!
> you set the the hair ball for 1000 amps, and then flip the 1k/2K bit
and
>you get 2000 amp on the 2K... Ummm this I know about .....
>Setting the 1k to 2k specs won't work, it rejects your inputs.
>But ware of jumping to a 2k when the Hairball was setup for a 1k.
WHAT where you doing playing with Otmar's sacred bits?
Nevermind...
WHAT where you doing with 'Zilla 1k parts -- you know you can handle that
little power!
Hand over your 2x4...
;-)
Neon
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<<< #35 is 3/8" (0.375") pitch; #40 & 41 are 1/2" (0.500") pitch. Are you
sure it is 0.400"? >>>
Only if you're measuring from tooth-tip to tooth-tip - 3/8" valley to valley,
but definitely not 40 pitch. I've ordered a couple 35-pitch sprockets and I'll
see how well those work.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(CSmonitor looks at Tango & PIHs)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0127/p14s01-stct.html
Sci/Tech > Computers & Technology from the January 27, 2005
edition
(Photograph) BATTERIES INCLUDED: Rick Woodbury sits in the Tango,
a two-seat electric car he invented and hopes to start selling
this year. PETER G. WILLIAMS/AP
Hybrids? Some opt to go all-electric.
By Mark Clayton | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Not long after Dan Kroushl got his new 2004 Toyota Prius, he
began to wonder about the mysterious button on the dash. It
didn't seem to have any function. Didn't boost the turbo or
engage an ejector seat. In online discussions with other Prius
enthusiasts, Mr. Kroushl soon discovered the button did have a
hidden function: It could turn the gasoline-electric hybrid into
an all-electric car - for a mile or so on limited battery power.
This "stealth mode" button works fine in Japan and Europe where
it's handy for drivers to roll politely about densely packed
subdivisions in the early morning and late evening. But the
button has been disconnected for North America's Priuses.
(Photograph) CHARGING UP: Future plug-in hybrids could run for a
year with just six fill-ups, a UC Davis team estimates. HYBRID
ELECTRIC VEHICLE CENTER/UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS
Now, scores of Prius owners in the United States are activating
the button on their own - despite company warnings that altering
the car will void its warranty.
Some drivers, including Kroushl, are going even further: adding
battery capacity - and a plug. The hoped for result: a high-tech
commuting car that plugs into a socket at night and gets amazing
gas mileage the next day.
In effect, these backyard mechanics have turned the hybrid car's
appeal on its head. Instead of emphasizing gasoline over electric
power and the convenience of today's cars, they're aiming to
create less polluting higher-mileage vehicles that emphasize
electricity over gasoline - even if it's a bit less convenient.
"One guy I know plugs his Honda hybrid into a windmill for
power," Kroushl says. "It costs him practically nothing to
drive."
Since before the Model T, electric cars have been among the most
efficient modes of transportation. They made a bit of a comeback
in the mid-1990s, when General Motors and other automakers
reintroduced electric-only cars to meet a proposed California
clean-air mandate. But with the weakening of that requirement,
which called for some vehicles to be zero-emission in 2003, GM,
Toyota, and Honda stopped production of their electric vehicles.
Some automakers, which had leased the cars, began taking them
back to be destroyed.
Only the dedication of enthusiasts has kept them from
disappearing completely. This past summer, after Ford Motor Co.
announced it would scrap its electric Think vehicles,
environmental groups occupied the roof of the company's Norwegian
offices and held a mock funeral at a San Francisco dealer. Within
two weeks, Ford agreed instead to ship its vehicles to a
Norwegian electric-car manufacturer. Just last week, Ford also
reluctantly agreed to let Dave Bernikoff-Raboy, a California
rancher, buy the all-electric pickup truck he had been leasing.
He was so devoted to the vehicle, which recharged off a solar
panel, that he camped out near a Ford dealership in Sacramento,
Calif., to protest that automaker's plans to dispose of its
remaining electric fleet.
Now, a growing interest in hybrids has rekindled the hopes of the
electricity-firsters. Global demand for hybrids is estimated to
rise from about 200,000 units produced annually to more than 1
million vehicles a year by 2010, according to ABI Research, an
international market-research firm, in a report last year. If
only 1 percent of these were converted to run primarily on
electricity, it would create a base of more than 30,000 vehicles
by the end of the decade.
"We're not talking about electric vehicles, but about plug-in
hybrid vehicles that can be topped off with electricity for short
trips," James Woolsey, former director of the Central
Intelligence Agency, said last month during the unveiling of a
report by the 16-member National Commission on Energy Policy.
"The potential in terms of national policy, and in terms of
global warming, ought to be focused on by anyone" concerned about
terrorism or "paying over $2 a gallon."
Other experts are also urging automakers to take a new look.
"We think the transportation fuel sector should be diversified by
utilizing more electricity as a fuel - plug-in hybrids that can
get 100 miles per gallon and allow you to run on electricity
alone for 20 to 30 miles, then shift to the combustion engine,"
says Gal Luft, director of the Institute for the Analysis of
Global Security, an energy-security think tank in Washington.
But automakers show little interest.
"Why would anyone want to do that?" wonders Sam Butto, a Toyota
spokesman in Torrance, Calif., when told some Prius owners are
creating their own plug-in Priuses. "One of the great features of
the Prius is that you don't have to plug it in."
It is also unlikely Toyota would make a plug-in Prius - though
"nothing is impossible," he hedges. The problems are many,
including a "much, much, much larger battery" needed to increase
range, which would add hundreds of pounds, says David Hermance, a
Toyota environmental engineer.
How green is that plug-in?
Anyway, plug-in hybrids are not that green, Mr. Hermance argues.
They run on electricity that's often created by coal-fired power
plants. So, such a car would be only marginally better from an
environmental and economic perspective than a regular hybrid and
have limited appeal, he concludes. Case closed.
While Andrew Frank concedes that an electric car powered
indirectly by coal isn't much better for the environment, he
argues it is still more efficient transportation - and it makes a
world of difference from the standpoint of energy security.
With engineering students at the University of California at
Davis, Professor Frank has spent more than a decade turning
production vehicles into plug-in hybrids using off-the-shelf
parts. "We just built a high-performance plug-in hybrid Ford
Explorer," he says. "It's 325 horsepower - 200 of that horsepower
is electric and 125 is gasoline. This car goes like a rocket, but
still gets double the fuel economy of a regular hybrid. And for
the first 50 miles it is all electric - zero emissions."
That's enough for many drivers to complete their daily commute.
Compared with conventional cars, the annual fuel consumption of
the modified cars "is only about 10 percent, because you're using
gas so infrequently," he says. "Our studies show [that] the
average person would only go to the gas station six times a year
compared with maybe 35 times a year."
Built on a stock Explorer platform, the hybrid retains all its
original interior space. There is also more space in the engine
compartment because the vehicle lacks moving parts like a fan
belt, generator, water pump, and even a transmission. Because it
has fewer than one-fifth the number of moving parts of a
conventional SUV, the hybrid's weight, even with a heavier
battery, stays the same. Assembly is simpler and reliability,
better. In production, it might cost $40,000 or less, he says.
A nibble from Toyota
Despite repeated presentations to the Big Three automakers in
Detroit, Frank has received little interest from them. But last
year, Toyota flew his Explorer to its research facilities in
Japan so engineers could pore over the vehicle. "There's no
question in my mind that Toyota has plans for a plug-in hybrid
right now, but they aren't talking about it," he says.
Certainly, plug-in hybrids are for real. DaimlerChrysler is
reportedly near delivery of the first batch of what is expected
to be as many as 100 Sprinter delivery vans that permit travel of
up to 20 miles on electricity alone. This will come in handy in
car-clogged European cities currently considering bans or other
limits on gas- and diesel-powered delivery vehicles.
AC Propulsion had demonstrated a converted VW Jetta with a
plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) system. Renault is
offering its Kangoo PHEV that can go 60 miles on a charge before
switching back to gas. Commuter Cars Corp. of Spokane, Wash., is
offering a low-volume electric car called the Tango for $85,000.
Meanwhile, a not-for-profit outfit called CalCars in San
Francisco is modifying two Priuses by adding more battery power
and a plug. The group has discovered an empty space under the
hatch near the current battery that looks almost as if Toyota
intended to do this itself one day. "We hope to get significantly
more miles per gallon with the additional battery power," says
Felix Kramer, the group's founder. "Our purpose is to show Toyota
that there is demand for this kind of vehicle."
Will Toyota - or Detroit - respond? Not without major
breakthroughs in technology, says Dan Bedore, a Ford spokesman.
"It's become pretty clear that our ... non-plug-in hybrid system
is the direction we see the market going."
"The answer is they really don't want to do it," Frank says.
"We're just a bunch of students. If we can build this with
off-the-shelf technology, they can too - and do things better
than what we do. If they really were interested in doing
something in the short term, they could do it."
(Photograph) A CORNER TURNED: This Ford Explorer hybrid,
converted by a team from the University of California at Davis to
emphasize electric power, took third place at a 2002 competition
for alternative-technology trucks. HYBRID ELECTRIC VEHICLE
CENTER/UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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EVLN(EVs go where polluters can't)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050127/nyth152_1.html
Press Release Source: Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company, L.L.C.
Introducing a New Caribbean Destination: West Caicos Reserve, The
Protected Island Thursday January 27, 1:17 pm ET Previously
Uninhabited Island Features Powdery White-Sand Beaches, Crystal-
Clear Turquoise Water, a 500-Acre Wildlife Preserve and Unspoiled
Natural Beauty Debuting a New Boutique Ritz-Carlton Resort and
Villas, a World-Class Marina and Environmental Stewardship
Program
TURKS & CAICOS ISLANDS, British West Indies, Jan. 27 /PRNewswire/
-- Today, Logwood Development Company, the Turks & Caicos Island
Government and The Ritz-Carlton Hotel Company announced the
opening of the newest destination in the Caribbean -- West Caicos
Reserve, The Protected Island, http://www.WestCaicosReserve.tc.
For the first time in nearly 100 years, the approximately
11-square-mile, 6,000-acre island of West Caicos will open its
shores to a new settlement. West Caicos features some of the most
sublime, virgin beaches and brilliant azure water in the
Caribbean. It is home to the 500-acre Lake Catherine, a natural
wildlife sanctuary and breeding ground for pink roseate
flamingoes, as well as Molasses Reef, rumored to be the final
resting place of Columbus' Pinta and ranking among the world's
top dive sites. Reachable only by boat, small plane, or
helicopter, transportation on-island will be primarily by
electric vehicle and bicycle.
[...]
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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