EV Digest 4083
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Vanadium Battery
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:tire growth
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) (non) lethal multimeters (was High Voltage - let go!)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: (non) lethal multimeters (was High Voltage - let go!)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fault detecting contactor control relays
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Flooded NiCDs in parallel
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Vanadium Battery
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Vanadium Battery
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Vanadium Battery
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: tire growth
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Free CAD Program?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Tour de Sol 2005 Announcement
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) White Zombie Range
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Free CAD Program?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question, comments
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Brake Drum as Motor Adapter?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Brake Drum as Motor Adapter?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
"the advent of 42-volt systems in cars and maybe even
widespread electric vehicles."
http://www.exideworld.com/pdf/2001_exide_brochure.pdf
When are these 42 volt batteries going to be on the market?
What effect will they have as far as conversions go?
Right now manufacturer's are slow to convert. Toyota has a production
vehicle in Japan (Crown?) that uses a 42Vbatter/starter for idle stop.
GM's mild hybrid (idle stop) full sized pickups are expected to have a
42v system. Believe it or not the biggest hurdle being quoted is coming
up with a battery connection standard that prevents people from
connecting jumper cables to the 42 battery and blowing up themselves or
the 12v system in another vehicle.
Once the systems are on vehicles you will start to see a slow migration
of higher power accessory loads. I expect the hybrids will see it first
with 42V electric AC and power steering powered when the engine is
stopped. Since most designs seem to involve a 42V alternator with a
DC/DC to run the 12v loads most conversions will need to switch to a 42v
DC/DC. That will be good for us, since DC/DCs are typically current
limited.. we'll get more power for the same silicon. 42v AC and power
steering will be a blessing.. it will eliminate two of the bigger
hassles in conversion.
Mark
Marl
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.sae.org/42volt has more info.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
"the advent of 42-volt systems in cars and maybe even
widespread electric vehicles."
http://www.exideworld.com/pdf/2001_exide_brochure.pdf
When are these 42 volt batteries going to be on the market?
What effect will they have as far as conversions go?
!DSPAM:42094941307675313812468!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend Down Under sent me an article on a newly developed Vanadium Bromide
Redox Flow Battery.
http://www.cegt.com.au/documents/CEGT_Vanadium_Bromide_Redox_Battery_Media_Release_12_J.pdf
Plans are to develop 5 and 50 kW sizes. Market targets are solar homes and
electric vehicles. Highlights are that it is "infinitely rechargeable" (the
BS meter got pegged!!) and has an 80% efficiency. The battery was created
by Maria Skyllas-Kazocos, a professor and scientist at the University of New
South Wales.
However, I did a search and Maria Skyllas **is** connected with the
University of New South Wales:
http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/staff/Maria_Skyllas-Kazacos/Skyllas.htm
**with** references and patent numbers connected to the above battery.
I did find this URL which has a few pictures and schematics:
http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/vanart2a.htm
Thought I'd ask if anyone knows anything about this battery?
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:50 PM -0800 2-8-05, Rich Rudman wrote:
>Ok folks I have not been paying much attention to the EV
> >photo album...
> >where do I send this Shot of Dennis's Current Eliminator.
Rich has sent me the picture of the Current Eliminator at Speedworld.
I figured it was such a good shot it belongs on my home page.
You can see it here: http://www.CafeElectric.com/
Click on the image for the full size one.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David and Lee for pointing out that the 260 uses only a 1.5V
battery for measuring Ohms.
I am not completely convinced that this is a myth. Does anyone on this
list seriously believe that 1.5 volts is enough to push a lethal current
from one thumb to the other even if you penatrated the skin?
Remember that all the figures folks have been posting about how much
current it takes to kill you are based on 60hz AC current. 60hz happens
to be about THE most deadly frequency for AC, higher and lower frequecies
are "relatively" safer.
DC is commonly considered to be 4 or 5 times safer than AC, i.e. it takes
4-5 times as much DC current to have the same effect as 60hz AC.
FWIW, back in the day (early '80s) when I first joined the military we
used to have 90V 20hz ring generators in the tech controls. We used to
form human chains of two to three people holding hands with one end of the
chain firmly grabbing the 90V lead and the other end lightly touching an
unsuspecting victim.
Oddly enough, even though the victim got a shock strong enough to wake
them up and make them jump out of their chair, the folks in the chain
didn't even feel the 90V 20hz going straight through their torsos from one
hand to the other.
> Peter,
> Operator's Manual for the 260-6XLP and 6XLPM (Naval use in early '80s),
> page 1-4:
> "The maximum current drawn from the 1.5V ['D' cell] battery is 250 mA (RX1
> with test leads shorted)."
>
>>Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 18:57:19 -0700 (MST)
>>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> <snipage>
>>
>>I'm not even sure the Simpson 260 can source that much current on the
>> test
>>leads. Anyone have a Simpson 260? How much current does it put out went
>>set to the x1 ohms scale?
> <snip>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Who figured out that it'd take 4.8 Megawatts to vaporize a person and
> why and what drugs they where doing?
> OTOH, now we know how much power a Star Trek hand phaser puts out on
> level 5 (vaporize monster setting).
I always wanted to build one of those. Now I just need to find my
spare nuke reactor and a handy monster to test it on.
> On a (slightly) more practical and electrical note, anybody know of a
> good link for voltage and power needed to strike an arc in dry air?
> Somewhere there must be tables for designing arc lamps like these from
> the 1890s :
> http://www.voltnet.com/arclamps/adamsbagnall.shtml
I ran across that when looking at specs for high energy ignition systems
specifically spark plugs. Been too long to recall where the page was tho
but that might help narrow the search a bit.
>
> "Mad" Mike
> Free range software engineer
I wanna be a fringengineer too! Problem is the only notable wierd thing
I do is use my mig welder to charge my watch battery. Don't even have
to take it off either....
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Peter VanDerWal"
> the folks in the chain didn't even feel the 90V 20hz going
> straight through their torsos from one hand to the other.
How many amps were you dealing with?
----
This Friday on the Discovery Channel, that "American Hotrod"
program; from the preview, it looks like someone is holding
a Tig "torch" and he has a "spark" going from it to the
ground that is about two or three feet long and shocks
someone with it. Anyone else see that? Be sure to watch it
this Friday as I think there is some more shocking action
going on in it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/americanhotrod/americanhotrod.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Getting ready to wire up some of the contactors and stuff. My contactors
are higher-voltage coil types, so they're being driven by control relays.
I'm going to use Lee Harts' "slugger" circuit (putting a resistor in series
with the coils, with a capacitor across them to 'snap' them shut).
The control relays I'm going to use are industrial changeover contact
types, single pole. Two relays per control circuit for safety. Since these
are likely to be ignored once in and working, there would be the potential
for one relay to weld shut and not know about it. I'm thinking of using the
'back' contact of the relays to detect a relay non-opening. Something like:
Relay 'a' and 'b' are two independent relays, with coils in paralell. Small
isolated DC/DC to provides a signal power source that is isolated and only
on when the vehicle is on.
[from traction B+ via slugger
and contactor coil]
|
|
| o----------[to + of isolated DC/DC]
| o
| \
| \_________
| Relay 'a' |
| o |
|__| |
|
___ |
| o |
| o |
| \ |
| \_________|
| Relay 'b'
| o
| |__[to traction B-]
|
|
[to opto or relay to signal back
to 12V side a de-energised position confirmation]
|
Return to isolated DC/DC
Comments?
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick verify: Can one run strings of flooded NiCDs in parallel?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone working on any EV projects with sep-ex/shunt-wound motors? I rarely
see any mention of them, and there are only a few motors for sale on the retail
sites. The 1244 Curtis I was considering getting rid of is 36-48V/400A - would
it be better to look for a golf cart place to sell it to rather than expecting
someone to use it on a street vehicle (unless it's a motorcycle)? Any idea how
efficient a sep-ex system is when compared to a similar series system?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many Club car golf carts use sepex and NEV's like the
GEM use them as well. Check out those list's for
buyers. Is this a control that Cursit was using to
compete with GE's NEV controls?. Maybe you could
advertise this as a high performance option for a Club
car golf cart? I think those controls are sepex 48V
and less than 300A current limit.
Good luck.
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is anyone working on any EV projects with
> sep-ex/shunt-wound motors? I rarely
> see any mention of them, and there are only a few
> motors for sale on the retail
> sites. The 1244 Curtis I was considering getting rid
> of is 36-48V/400A - would
> it be better to look for a golf cart place to sell
> it to rather than expecting
> someone to use it on a street vehicle (unless it's a
> motorcycle)? Any idea how
> efficient a sep-ex system is when compared to a
> similar series system?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A friend Down Under sent me an article on a newly developed Vanadium Bromide
> Redox Flow Battery.
>
Not too "new" - this site was revised a couple times in the past, and now reads
"last updated July 2002":
http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/
Search the phrase "Vanadium Redox Battery" for others
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As long as the parallel strings are the same temperature, it should work
fine.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
> Quick verify: Can one run strings of flooded NiCDs in parallel?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy Holmquist at canev.com was building a Sep-ex system last summer. He
might be able to give you some information.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:32 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
Is anyone working on any EV projects with sep-ex/shunt-wound motors? I
rarely
see any mention of them, and there are only a few motors for sale on the
retail
sites. The 1244 Curtis I was considering getting rid of is 36-48V/400A -
would
it be better to look for a golf cart place to sell it to rather than
expecting
someone to use it on a street vehicle (unless it's a motorcycle)? Any idea
how
efficient a sep-ex system is when compared to a similar series system?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Wed Feb 9, 2005 12:55 am
>Subject: Vanadium Battery
>A friend Down Under sent me an article on a newly developed Vanadium Bromide
>Redox Flow Battery.
Descriptions of this, and other types of "flow" batteries, are also available at
http://www.electricitystorage.org/tech/technologies_technologies.htm .
Typical for these cells is that the electrodes are not part of the chemical
reactions,
and thus are not damaged/consumed through charging and discharging.
This is probably meant by "infinitely rechargeable".
Stationary "USV" plants already exist, but the low energy density of these
batteries
makes them unsuitable for any EV smaller than a bus.
Except ZnBr maybe, but thats a quite toxic mixture.
Regards, Jens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cowtown wrote:
> Not too "new" - this site was revised a couple times in the past, and now
reads
> "last updated July 2002":
> http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/
True, but the date on the press release from the following site is 12 Jan
2005:
http://www.cegt.com.au/documents/CEGT_Vanadium_Bromide_Redox_Battery_Media_Release_12_J.pdf
An article by Sean Berry entitled: "Sun and wind-charged battery unlocks
infinite power source", appeared in the Sydney Sun-Herald on January 30,
2005 with essentially the same information but with an added graphic
depicting the battery's use in a solar home. This article was the catalyst
for the original inquiry. Both are very recent...
The article also mentions a prototype "scheduled for release halfway
through next year". Wondered if anyone had any better or more detailed
information.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 22:54 PM
Subject: Re: Vanadium Battery
> > A friend Down Under sent me an article on a newly developed Vanadium
Bromide
> > Redox Flow Battery.
> >
>
> Not too "new" - this site was revised a couple times in the past, and now
reads
> "last updated July 2002":
> http://www.ceic.unsw.edu.au/centers/vrb/
>
> Search the phrase "Vanadium Redox Battery" for others
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You really mean that a Goodyear or BF Goodrich street tire (not a slick)
will grow 2.5 to 4 inches in diameter ?
Sorry, as I said before, a slick is built to do that, to alter the gear
ratio and improve the performance figures, specially the max speed.
But street tires, specially steel belted radials, simply cannot do it.
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Rich Rudman
Enviado el: martes, 08 de febrero de 2005 19:56
Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Asunto: Re: tire growth
I don't consider 2.5 to 4 inches of total tire growth Little or
unmeasurable.
In fact it's quite critical for final motor RPM and trap speed calculations.
When we are all touching Rev limits or the highest speeds we dare... knowing
the Mach number of our Comm Bars is a nice data point.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: tire growth
> Drag tires are built to do that, that growth changes the ratio, and the
car
> achieves a higher speed at the end of the 1/4 mile, street tires do grow,
> but it's so little that it is no use measuring it, and high performance
> tires (the hard ones, or rubber bands) grow even less.
>
> Ivo.
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre
> de Rich Rudman
> Enviado el: martes, 08 de febrero de 2005 15:53
> Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Asunto: Re:tire growth
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 2:29 PM
>
> .I sent this
> > picture to Rich Rudman(cost me 20 bucks) to post on the ev album,its one
> of the
> > best shots ever of the CE,with all its new graphics.The tires in the
> static
> > position hang over the rims almost 3 inches.The tires would grow another
2
> in.
> > with speeds in excess of 150. Dennis Berube
> >
>
>
> Ok folks I have not been paying much attention to the EV photo album...
> where do I send this Shot of Dennis's Current Eliminator.
>
> It does really show the tire growth.. I need Dennis to get a side shot in
> the pits so we can infer the tire growth from Static to 125 MPH.
> Right now it's good for about a .5 ratio change, with another 2 inches
that
> more like a entire integer ratio change.
> This is a go fast trick, that Rod, or anyone else with slicks should
> use. Why add another Gear set when you can just find the right tires..
> Just when your EV motor is back EmFing itself... this "Gear change" comes
> in just when you need it to.
>
> Big Hint... Dennis spent some real time figuring out the right tire and
rims
> for this to work.... Don't expect this to work for everyone...
> As everything Dennis does to go fast, it looks so darn simple......
> --
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Now onto the real question: What is a good CAD program to
> draw up my adapter plates? Emachineshop
> (http://www.emachineshop.com) has a nice simple CAD program
> they'll use to make your part. I haven't been able to figure
> out how to print dimensions on the drawing, though, anyone
> figured that out? Question B: Is there a free CAD program
> worth using? My goals are just to have a diagram to work
> from, have the double-check of the computer that dimensions
> agree, and to document what I do.
Hi David,
If you have a particular machine shop in mind, I suggest you ask them what
files they can import and what files have given them trouble. Most people
think you just give the machinist a drawing and that's it. That will work,
but you're making the machinist work harder and increasing the possibility
of errors.
Even small shops these days use CNC (Computer Numerical Control) machines
with varying degrees of sophistication. If he has the choice, the machinist
will import your drawing file into the machine programming software and
generate the program that way. The difficulty arises when you get software
incompatibility. Generally speaking, any drawing package that can export in
.dxf format will be safe. In general. It's best to check with your
machinist whether his software will read your files before you get too far
into it.
When making your drawing, be precise. The machine programming software
probably doesn't even look at the dimensions you've added to your drawing -
it looks at the characteristics of the drawing elements (lines, arcs,
centers, etc.). Make sure your drawing elements are located where you think
they are. All too often I've had a drawing look right on the screen but
when I zoomed in I found, for example, a line starting at a "parallel to"
instead of the endpoint I wanted.
And of course you're creating this drawing based on reliable measurements.
I've read of people creating adapters based on measurements made with good
equipment and good intentions, but were little more precise than using a
ruler. Using very accurate and precise tools only gets you accuracy and
precision if your methodology is correct. Frankly if it was me, I'd take an
empty transmission housing to the machinist and have him get the
measurements with a CMM (Coordinate Measuring Machine). An adapter is too
critical and expensive to risk getting wrong. (As several on the list can
confirm.)
Chris
P.S. Why an empty transmission housing? Next time you have a transmission
out, grab the end of the input shaft and see how far it wiggles around.
Where's the center? You may be able to get away with using a complete
transmission if they can get the CMM probe on the input shaft bearing bore
in three places. (Make sure it's drained and *sealed* - they really hate it
when a trans pukes gear oil all over the CMM table.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On behalf of the Tour de Sol 2005
Dear friends of the Tour de Sol:
Plans for the May 13-16 Tour de Sol are really exciting -
and we hope that you will want to be part of it all!
Early registration Deadline is March 1
Final registration for the Tour de Sol Championship is March 15.
Please let us know of your intent to register:
Nancy Hazard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pat Skelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
And visit www.TourdeSol.org for details!
Registration Forms are at:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2005championship.html
Here are some highlights of the Tour de Sol Championship:
Tour de Sol in Saratoga Springs, NY:
Teams: Please plan to arrive on Thursday, May 12 -
we may have a special event for you!
May 13: Tech testing, Autocross, and team-to-team sharing
May 14: The Tour de Sol will be featured at Saratoga's Spring Auto show
NESEA's new Monte Carlo-style Rally participants will join us.
5,000 visitors, 500 vehicles on display, food court,
and much more!
May 15: Range day to an area attraction & e-bike day,
And a seminar on plug-in hybrids, hydrogen vehicles and more!
Tour de Sol in Albany, NY:
May 16: Awards Ceremony & meet NYS legislators at
Albany's Empire State Plaza
Stay tuned for special afternoon activity
Teams: To learn more - join us for a conference call:
Thursday, Feb 10, between 5:30 - 6:30 PM
To join call: 508-995-6619 passcode: 523
Contact Pat Skelly with your registration questions:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
609-586-6992 day or evening
Nancy Hazard, NESEA Executive Director
PS. We have a separate reg form for those interested in the e-bike event,
or the Monte Carlo-style Rally.
They will be posted on the www.TourdeSol.org web site early next week.
--
Mike Bianchi
Foveal Systems
973 822-2085 call to arrange Fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com
http://www.FovealMounts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
42v AC and power steering will be a blessing.. it will eliminate two of
the bigger hassles in conversion.
Mark
Marl
This will be just about perfect for me. I'll finally be able to add air
conditioning to my motorcycle :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
>From John Westlund:
> I was lurking around and found a Datsun1200 message board
> where you quoted Zombie with a 288V setup as having 10 miles
> range. I suspect the figure may be outdated from when you had the
> 336V of Hawkers installed, but just checking.
>
I've never run White Zombie at 288V before, so something's funky about whatever
you found.
I went to the page you referenced:
<http://datsun1200.com/modules/nsections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=69>
Wow, I was not aware that someone had put up all that info on what I've been
doing...geez,
it even has a picture of the gas powered 411 hp Datsun 1200 I and my brother
put together!
Though most of the info is fairly accurate, the author, whoever it is, gets the
timeline
screwed up often, so battery packs and performance figures don't always match
up right.
I do remember writing about how the little 336V, 378 lb. pack was capable of a
10 mile
range, because that's what it did. I live exactly 9 miles from downtown
Portland, a
gradual slope going to, and a gradual pull in elevation going back home. The
car would
easily fly down the freeway to downtown with power to spare on arrival. The 9
miles uphill
back home was also on the freeway, but after the 55-60 mph cruise to my house,
the pack
was sagging when I got home...hence, the 10 mile rating.
Rich Rudman wrote:
> John...... nice skills with the Archive searching.
> BUT the White Zombie now has 26 Orbitals at 40 lbs each.
> It last ran at 240 volts with only 20 Orbitals.
> Give John some credit for changing battery packs every decade or so.....
> Right now it has the heaviest battery pack it ever has, and if John Keeps
> the volts down.. one of the most reliable runs it's ever had.
> His 30 to 40 miles range.. is Ummmm Wayland esque.... Add copy. But you
> will loose money if you bet him on his range. He's good at it, if he
> tries!!
OK, here goes.....Blue Meanie with just 585 lbs. of Optimas, can do 25 miles.
It's
actually done 30+ on a hot summer day with a full 100% discharge at tepid 35
mph speeds,
but that's not realistic driving. It does do 25 miles with batteries in top
condition.
Now, same car (White Zombie) with 960 lbs. of very similar batteries....a 64%
pack
increase! When it had less weight in batteries, 800 lbs. at 240 V, driving it
the 15 miles
home after an evening of drag racing, I could fly down the freeway at 80 mph
all the way,
with no noticeable pack degradation as I pulled into the driveway...lot's of
volts still
on tap, very little sag under load.
>From John Westlund:
> Whoa, 35-40 miles range? At what speed? At acceleration
> enough to keep up with traffic?
>
>From Steve Clunn:
> This seems quite beleavable , but how about some numbers , at 50 mph how
> many amp dose it pull.
>
White Zombie always keeps up with traffic :-) It's fairly easy to get good
range with the
little, light, and fairly areo 1200 sedan, a car that stock, weighs a scant
1587 lbs. It's
got a very small frontal area and rolls with very little effort. As a gas car
in the 70's,
before modern 4 valve engines with computer controlled timing and ignition were
the norm,
when other so called economy cars were getting 25 mpg @70 mpg (this was also
before the
adopted national 55 mph speed limit), the 1200 got 35 mpg @ 70 mph. At 55 mph,
a 1200
could easily turn in 52 mpg...again, this was with the old tech engine design.
The Datsun
1200 was America's gas mileage champ 3 years in a row, from '71-73, the full
run for this
model.
45 mph is what I travel at going to the track along scenic Marine Drive
following the
Columbia River, and at this speed with the late 2004 -2004 race season 240V pack
(nominal) the current draw was about 30 amps @ 250V, or around 7 hp to move
the little
car along under that light of a load. At 50-55 mph current draw went up to
about 40 amps
and 246 volts, right around 10 hp. The Orbitals can give 40 amps for about 30
minutes, so
that's about 27 miles at 55 mph. Slow down to 45 mph to draw less current, and
the
batteries can give 30 amps continuously for about 45 minutes for an estimated
33 miles.
With 4 more batteries the car is now heavier, but at 288V, current draw is even
less now.
Less current draw from a pack that just grew 20% larger in capacity, means
considerably
more range. I'll have to take it out for a test spin, but I believe at 55 mph
it will draw
about 35 amps, so that's 36 miles or so. Slow down to 45 mph and it comes in at
over 40
miles per charge.
>
> > Those tires are anything but low rolling resistance, and
> > with no transmission, you're going to be guzzling amps like
> > hell just to get the thing moving.
When street driving, the rear drag radials are pumped up to 35 psi, so they
roll a lot
easier. The car is light, and the rear ratio is low at 4:56, and with twin
motors wired in
series there's huge torque per amp available, so it really doesn't take all
that much
juice getting up to speed.
> >....the car can only make one 1/4 mile pass
> > before it runs out of juice?
In the old days running the little brick sized Hawkers, yes, it was pretty
tired after a
1200+ amp pass down the strip. With the beefy Orbital pack, capacity is not a
problem at
all. I recharge after each run to keep the performance at its top level.
> I'd be interested to know the ah used my guess it less that 10 ah .
With the car at 1995 lbs. and with the light Hawker pack...3.7 ahrs for a full
throttle
1/4 mile run, and at a C/250th discharge (aprox.), yes, the 16 ahr C/10 rated
pack was
fully exhausted.
See Ya....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
I had always understood it to be a 36 volt battery with a 42 volt system
voltage, just as we currently use 12 volt batteries in a 14 volt
system. If they start calling 36 volt batteries 42 volt batteries things
could get a bit confusing. :)
I could not get the pdf, I think I need to update my reader.
_____________
Andre' B.
At 06:38 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
http://www.sae.org/42volt has more info.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
"the advent of 42-volt systems in cars and maybe even widespread electric
vehicles."
http://www.exideworld.com/pdf/2001_exide_brochure.pdf
When are these 42 volt batteries going to be on the market? What effect
will they have as far as conversions go?
!DSPAM:42094941307675313812468!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:31 PM
Subject: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
> Is anyone working on any EV projects with sep-ex/shunt-wound motors? I
rarely
> see any mention of them, and there are only a few motors for sale on the
retail
> sites. The 1244 Curtis I was considering getting rid of is 36-48V/400A -
would
> it be better to look for a golf cart place to sell it to rather than
expecting
> someone to use it on a street vehicle (unless it's a motorcycle)? Any idea
how
> efficient a sep-ex system is when compared to a similar series system?
>
Hi All;
I wish there was! I have been a big believer in the Sep Ex system after
driving Doug Dow's homemade Sep Ex systen back in the 60's at Electric Fuel
Propulsion, Bob Aronson's setup. Doug Dow was old as the hills back, gees he
was in his 70's REALLY old to us young guyz in our 30's<g>! then, his Dad
helped found Detroit Edison power Co was a friend of Tom Edison, way back.
He always said that a DC motor was a dumb, easily fooled beast. It cares
little WHERE the field strength comes from, it is just gunna run, anyhow. He
took a stock Baker 10 inch, I think? Series motor we were using on the Mars
Two Renault R -10 conversion, hand rewound the field, many turns of wire, so
he could fake, in magnetic strength the coiled buss bar that passes as a
field in a series motor. Not knowing how to play the field strength game
electronucly, he did it with the contactrer controller we used in the stock
Mars, PLUS his setup, a box of contacters that filled the back seat. When
the car ran it sounded like a Pachinko game, or a pinball a wonderful
cacopany of clicks and clacks, with the smoothness<g>? of a contacter
controller, smoothed out by the car's 4000lb weight. It took a bit of
getting used to. To slow down, in, a series of streetcar like steps, as you
let up the "gas" pedal slowly, it would haul you right down at several
hundred amps, to say a stoplite, and fade as you rolled to a stop, less to
NO back EMF. All you OTHER train drivers know that feeling. But , MAN it
was impressive, going down hills DUMPING in to the hungry batteries loads of
amps and a REAL braking effort. No wimpy 20 amps! Ocassionally something
would hang up and it would lock up the wheels, embarrasing in traffic! So
strong the Regen effort COULD be, well it did each wheel at a time through
the Renault diff. IT didn't like that and the half shafts would snap, a real
PITA to fix!
Ok.. Bottom line: I was/am SOLD on Sep Ex!! You have probably heard me
extol the virtures face to face when ya met up with me at EV functions. I
STILL drive Sep Ex as the older AEM- 7 locomotives are set up this way the
ASEA ones that haven't been "Upgraded" to AC drive. We still hava bunch of
them in stock Sep Ex form, my favorites.
I have gotten tacet approval from the guyz that can make it happen
,Damon at DCP, Jerry Warfield at Warfield Electric.IE They think it's fine!
It would take a team effort between the motor and the controller builder, as
they hafta be a perfect match. With a clean slate we could go to higher
voltages, 200 plus, to get Ohm's law in your favor. It costs money to build
up a few protypes!! But I think it could give DC a new competitive edge
against AC as it could be done with a hellova lot less sillycon! Of course
if it was so great Howcum GM didn't go that route with the EV 1? All, hah!
FEW production EV's money relatively no object went AC.
Maybe I'm too late, in the AC DC thing, trying to hold out for a DC
system, EVen my beloved Acela Express is all AC. Maybe for homebuilders,
offered a sep ex for about what you're paying for a Warp and a Zilla, Or
Oatmar had a sep ex Zilla for a few extra bux?
My Perfect World would be a big box from the EV WhEVer supply house, a
motor and big green or purple box. Install motor in car, batteries, too.
Hook up controller/charger box to the right places and yur in biz! Why let
your sillycon loaf when charging, it sniffs out the imput charging voltage
like a PFC Whatever, adjusts, charges away, then runs the car when you
unplug and drive off. Nothing new, Wally Rippel and Ron Gremban were working
on this concept at EFP 35 years ago. The 3 in one BOX, controller, charger,
and regen. Old ideas die hard with an olde EVer!
Nice to see Ron Gremban back into EV's again, on the Cal Cars thing, the
Plug In Prius. We worked at EFP thousands of years together, had a great
time! The '71 Great Clean Car Race MIT to Cal Tech, those were the daze!
EV's were just around the corner. Sigh! Never gave up on that, hence the
Rabbit .I got tired of waiting for the Big Three.4-5 or whomEVer. We ALL
did, That's why there are so many new faces on here.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Paul Compton, Ryan Stotts, Don Cameron, James F. Jarrett, and
Chris Tromley for the good answers.
First an overall summary: Looks like you get what you pay for. Here
are compromises I see:
Something quick and easy: Emachineshoponline's free software.
It's really more meant for machines and not humans to work from,
there is a chance for human error when manually labeling the
dimensions.
Next step up: Use a cheap 2D cad program that can spit out a dxf
file, and then import this file into emachineshop's program to get a
3D view.
Best but most expensive: Get a true 3D CAD program, may be able
to get a used one on ebay cheaper.
Some more specific comments:
Don: Awesome research on CAD programs! Thanks for posting your list.
James: DeltaCAD + emachineshop as a 3D viewer might be the best
low-cost compromise. I certainly have nothing to lose trying the free
45 day trial.
Chris Tromley: Good comment on being compatible with CNC, I'll make
dxf a requirement. Since I'm the computer and machinist on this one,
I know I'll be compatible :) . Good points on the accuracy, too. I'm
lucky with the Porsche, things are centered by an inset step on the
tranny mounting surface that is an ~11 inch diameter circle. All I
have to do is machine the 4 inch centering hole for the motor that is
concentric with the ~11 inch "hole." I'll do both holes without
unbolting the part from the machine to make sure they stay concentric
with high accuracy. Some folks warned me the Kostov 4 inch centering
circle wasn't very accurate, but mine measured to be within 0.001
inch of concentric with the motor shaft (i.e. perfect as far as I can
tell).
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe the Dodge TeVan had sepex.
I'm going to give sepex a try in my conversion. I'll let the list
know how that goes. The theoretical benefits I see:
regen
better efficiency
more area under the torque curve
Now I just have to build an analog computer (my conversion) to see if
the theory is right :) .
I believe the efficiency will be better (in addition to regen)
because the sepex doesn't need to do current multiplication. If
losses go as I^2R, then multiplying current increases motor losses. I
realize this will be a small effect as series DC is already pretty
efficient.
Fatter torque curve: Someone recently posted dynoing at 170 hp at
2000 rpm, and 100 hp at 5000 rpm (or something like that) with series
DC. With sepex, in theory, you should be able to have 170 hp at 2000
and 170 hp at 5000 rpm. The reality might be weakening the field
enough to get high hp at high rpm might lead to arcing problems -- I
plan to creep up on this and find out.
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> But I think it could give DC a new competitive
> edge
> against AC as it could be done with a hellova lot less sillycon! Of
> course
> if it was so great Howcum GM didn't go that route with the EV 1?
> All, hah!
> FEW production EV's money relatively no object went AC.
> ...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:31 PM
> Subject: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question
>
>
> > Is anyone working on any EV projects with sep-ex/shunt-wound
> motors? I
> rarely
> > see any mention of them, and there are only a few motors for sale
> on the
> retail
> > sites. The 1244 Curtis I was considering getting rid of is
> 36-48V/400A -
> would
> > it be better to look for a golf cart place to sell it to rather
> than
> expecting
> > someone to use it on a street vehicle (unless it's a motorcycle)?
> Any idea
> how
> > efficient a sep-ex system is when compared to a similar series
> system?
=====
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I did some measurements and drew up an adapter, and woke up in the
middle of the night realizing I had just drawn a brake drum! Has
anyone used a truck brake drum as a starting point for an adapter?
Here is a picture of a VW adapter, you'll see the similarity:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=31&product_id=3181>
I figure a truck brake drum needs to support ~2000 lbs of truck, and
withstand ~2000 lbs of braking torque, so it should be up to 200 lbs
of electric motor and 500 ft-lbs of torque. I realize the drum will
need some machining, and may need to fit to a tranny plate. Are there
any gotchas I'm missing?
=====
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Weight... most brakes are steel.. most adapters are alum. You really
don't need a huge amount of strength. Also the VW adapter is
smaller/rounder than many others. Most tranny bell housing are bigger
diameters and not at all round. A flat piece of plate and a spacer is
fast and easy to build (does require a mill.. your system might be
do-able with only a lathe).
Mark Farver
David Dymaxion wrote:
I did some measurements and drew up an adapter, and woke up in the
middle of the night realizing I had just drawn a brake drum! Has
anyone used a truck brake drum as a starting point for an adapter?
Here is a picture of a VW adapter, you'll see the similarity:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=31&product_id=3181>
I figure a truck brake drum needs to support ~2000 lbs of truck, and
withstand ~2000 lbs of braking torque, so it should be up to 200 lbs
of electric motor and 500 ft-lbs of torque. I realize the drum will
need some machining, and may need to fit to a tranny plate. Are there
any gotchas I'm missing?
=====
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!DSPAM:420a5c1877852077516640!
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