EV Digest 4085
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) A Drinking Problem
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) fuel economy rating for cars
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OT Zap smart cars
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: fuel economy rating for cars
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: fuel economy rating for cars
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 500A battery load tester
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question, comments
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: fuel economy rating for cars
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: fuel economy rating for cars
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 500A battery load tester
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) New GBR auto ratings give only BEVs an "A"
by Gravity Girl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question, comments
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: OT Zap smart cars
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Dyno Was: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Custom lightweight clutch and flywheel
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Dyno Was: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have two Saft NI-Cad STM-180's I'm testing in my 20 6V battery pack and they
seam to use about 3x the water that the flooded wet cells use. The main issue
is I can't see how full the cells are since they are in a pack and can't see
the sides of the batteries. One I'm evaluating in the front if the vehicle is
visible and last night when watering, the distilled water goes in one end and
dribbles out the other. The last cell was still down to the plates. I put
water in the opposite end and the low cell filled up slowly (like the filling
valve was stuck). How can you tell the water level on these batteries? This
seams like a fundamental problem. Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Roy, this guy is not on the fringe, although some of his
statements are questionable, in my opinion. I am an electrical contractor,
not an electrician (which simply means I don't know the NFPA code as well as
an electrician should!) The NFPA is NOT the definitive body on electrical
safety - they are a fire prevention body, and although they write the NEC,
there is a lot of stuff in the NEC that is not safety related, it is
political and at times totally ridiculous in terms of safety. I'd rather
take the advice of an older electrician, someone who's been around and seen
it all, than the advice of some young inexperienced engineer or someone from
the NFPA or someone with an axe to grind!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 9:55 PM
Subject: Fringengineer? was Re: High Voltage - let go!
>
> Fellow EVDL folks take heed!
>
> I am afraid that I have drawn the elusive "Fringengineer" out of his
> hideyhole here.
>
> You would not believe the emails I have received from him.
>
> I seriously suspect that this is him.
>
> Read and compare from the following info.
>
> Google "McCotter Technologies" and check my EVDL posting #32849 titled
"Sick
> EV Humor Revisited".
>
> It is the same guy IMHO.
>
> Do any of you remember Troy Heagy? This guy is worse.
>
> Have fun! :^D
>
>
>
> johnk wrote:
> >
> Greetings,
> >
> > I hate to come out larkdom, but I'm afraid if I don't say something,
> >someone might die. NFPA 70E is the national standard for electrical
> >safety[hard period]. I cannot point you to a link because there is none.
If
> >you want read 70E you must buy it or find a very good library. The best
> >experts for EV enthusiast are going to be power conversion engineers and
> >electrical safety officers from the national labs. Not your bother the
> >electrician or Joe the TV guy. So if you have question about electrical
> >safety try getting a hold of someone from Sandia, SLAC, LBL, ArGON,
> >Fermi-lab.
> >
> > Here are few things you guys have kicked around but to my estimation
> >didn't
> >pin down.
> >
> > The 5mA number is cited in 70E. This is a current it takes to put heart
> >into fibulation.
> >
> > High Voltage = 50V and above! Go ahead and work on your 48V buss with
bare
> >hands, but I wouldn't.
> >
> > The 10 joule limit. This is the limit for stored energy the tells you
when
> >to put on your PPE (personal protection equipment). Lets face it a
battery
> >bank = mega joules = safety equipment.
> >
> > Skin Resistance = 50 ohms typical. the problem here is once skin is
> >punctured that's it! This is why taking the Simpson meter in the ohms
mode
> >and to sticking the sharp probes in your temples is a bad idea!
> >
> > Arc Flash Point. This is where your engulfed in a plasma ball that is
ten
> >times hotter then the sun. For the EVers this should not be an issue but
> >you
> >need to know that it takes 480v (577 peak) and 10,000 amps to vaporized
> >yourself. I'm fearful that someday someone will build a EV with 600v
motor
> >and some really fast batteries.
> >
> > 1 amp for one second. This is lower limit for cooking yourself. Not much
> >is
> >it? Electricial burns are like radiation burns. The doctor has to wait to
> >see how much damage there is before he cuts something off.
> >
> > I have scared you yet? I hope so, because some of you need it. I know
> >there
> >are a bunch of really bright people out there. But please don't assume
> >anything when it comes to electricial safety.
> >
> > I really think there's a need for a EV builders safety manual and best
> >practices guide. More and more people will be rolling their own EV's and
it
> >would be real nice if not one of them got hurt. A few bad accidents will
> >set
> >EVs back decades and invite government interference.
> >
> >John K
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I heard on the radio this morning that the government is to introduce
a rating scheme for new cars, based on their efficiency (like the
rating chart you already get on light bulbs, fridges etc).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4250987.stm
I was pleased to hear that for the A (best) category, they only
mentioned one type of vehicle available able that qualifies - an EV!
A <100 g/km Battery electric vehicles
B 101-150 g/km Toyota Prius 1.5 petrol-electric hybrid, Smart car
0.7 petrol, Citroen C2 1.4 diesel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First the 42-volt system is really what we would call 36volts. Second
don't hold your breathe waiting for the 42volt systems ever see production.
Though it is not dead-dead, it might as well be. The big players have halted
completely or phased back their research quite a bit.
The biggest hurdle they found was the main fuse to the battery. When it
blows it is more of a grenade than a fuse, so safety issues surrounding it
are enormous. Break throughes in rectifier design in past couple of years
have made the 42-volt system possible a non-necessity as well. With the
advent of new stator designs, oil cooling, and Mosfet (sp?) rectifiers,
engineers are now thinking 12 volt 400amp alternators are possible. Though
the exist now, they are too bulky for most cars.
If you want more information about the 42volt system I suggest contacting
my stepfather at [EMAIL PROTECTED] . He will take awhile to respond as he
doesn't check his emails frequently. My industry has kept a close eye on the
development of the 42 volt systems. We are in constant communication with
the OE advisors about the systems. Since mid last year we were told to
pretty much consider it dead, or at least not in production for about ten
years. (GM was supposed to have a system in a truck by this year). They were
one of the biggest players, as they have 17KW of devices approved for use in
vehicles, just not enough power to use them.
One reason why I have always thought that a diesel generator and an AC or
DC drive made sense. It works on big trucks and trains, why not cars?
Hyster's new AC drive forklifts seem to be doing quite well as well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question for listers, and we can take it off list if needs be.
Ever since the announcement that the Smart Cars were going to be
available in the US (first by Zap and later by Mercedes). I have been
chewing on my wife's ear to buy one. She likes the idea and we are
likely going to buy one but I have one concern, how much do they cost?
Go do Zap's web site and you'll see lots of great marketing hype (they
are masters of this we all know) and several things like "Over 55
million dollars in advanced orders etc."
I'm guessing they are taking all the people who, like me are on their
mailing and "interested parties" lists and multiplying that by the cost
of the car and getting their numbers. But nowhere on their website can
I actually find a PRICE for one of the cars.
I have e-mailed them twice asking them what the cost will be and each
time I get a form letter saying how great the Smart Cars are (I agree)
but they always say something like "price to be determined once DOT
approval yadda yaddda yadddddda."
If they can't set a price yet, how can they say 55 million in advance
orders.
Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy have to do to
get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:24:39 +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
> I heard on the radio this morning that the government is to introduce
> a rating scheme for new cars, based on their efficiency (like the
> rating chart you already get on light bulbs, fridges etc).
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4250987.stm
>
> I was pleased to hear that for the A (best) category, they only
> mentioned one type of vehicle available able that qualifies - an EV!
>
> A <100 g/km Battery electric vehicles
> B 101-150 g/km Toyota Prius 1.5 petrol-electric hybrid, Smart car
> 0.7 petrol, Citroen C2 1.4 diesel
A SMART diesel has CO2 emissions of about 90-95 gCO2/km. A Lupo 3L TDI
has even less with 81-88 gCO2/km. Please compute the CO2 emissions of an
elektric car with the average of 650gCO2/kWh. Every electric car with
more than 15 kWh/100km would fall into the B category.
We had this off-topic discussion just a few month ago. Please look into
the archive.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:40:19 -0500, James F. Jarrett wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy have to do to
> get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
Its probably to expensive for most people:
http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2004-12/artikel-4216979.asp
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861/
I live in germany and own a convertable which is tuned to 75 hp. 5 years
ago it costed about 12.000 US$. A current one with the current currency
rate would cost more than 15.000 US$. So don't expect that they will be
cheap. Especially when they are a hot item ZAP will squeeze everything
out they can.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I saw the bidding go astronomical, but I think PART of that was
the hype that this is the "first one" and that gives some Nimrod with a
lot of money bragging rights. Of course he/she could have just REALLY
wanted one.
Based on what has been said and intimated in the past, I expect the
smart cars to to cost somewhere in the 13-16K range. I don't exactly
*WANT* to pay that much, but I'm willing. I don't think I'd spend much
more than that. Before they went out of business, and when I thought
they would do it, I was saving up for a Sparrow, and if this costs about
the same, then I'll do it.
James
PS, I'd love a sporty convertible, but I'll settle for a dependable
"standard".
JJ
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 09:53, Emil Naepflein wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:40:19 -0500, James F. Jarrett wrote:
>
> > Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy have to do to
> > get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
>
> Its probably to expensive for most people:
> http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2004-12/artikel-4216979.asp
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Raymond Knight wrote:
> First the 42-volt system is really what we would call 36volts. Second
> don't hold your breathe waiting for the 42volt systems ever see production.
> Though it is not dead-dead, it might as well be....
Let's not forget the 42-volt system's biggest connection to the EV world that
has already
come and for the most part, gone from us...the TMF batteries. The thin metal
film lead
acid batteries that powered Maniac Mazda to scary 1/4 mile times, the small
Inspira 12V
modules, were prototypes designed for use in the 36V battery setup for the 42V
system. The
batteries were lightweight and very compact but able to supply HUGE cranking
power. They
were made for a limited time. I still have one on the shelf as a momento of the
by-gone
days, the period of EV drag racing where Bolder and Inspira TMF batteries
brought us the 8
second Current Eliminator, the 9 second Killacycle, and the 11 second Maniac
Mazda.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:40:19 -0500, James F. Jarrett wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy have to do to
get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
Its probably to expensive for most people:
http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2004-12/artikel-4216979.asp
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861/
I live in germany and own a convertable which is tuned to 75 hp. 5 years
ago it costed about 12.000 US$. A current one with the current currency
rate would cost more than 15.000 US$. So don't expect that they will be
cheap. Especially when they are a hot item ZAP will squeeze everything
out they can.
Scarily enough, that /is/ cheap for the American market. 12 - 15
grand would make it cheaper than almost anything short of the
ultra-cheap Asian econo-boxes like the low end Kias.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:42:24 +0100, Emil Naepflein
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:24:39 +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > I heard on the radio this morning that the government is to introduce
> > a rating scheme for new cars, based on their efficiency (like the
> > rating chart you already get on light bulbs, fridges etc).
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4250987.stm
> >
> > I was pleased to hear that for the A (best) category, they only
> > mentioned one type of vehicle available able that qualifies - an EV!
> >
> > A <100 g/km Battery electric vehicles
> > B 101-150 g/km Toyota Prius 1.5 petrol-electric hybrid, Smart car
> > 0.7 petrol, Citroen C2 1.4 diesel
>
> A SMART diesel has CO2 emissions of about 90-95 gCO2/km. A Lupo 3L TDI
> has even less with 81-88 gCO2/km. Please compute the CO2 emissions of an
> elektric car with the average of 650gCO2/kWh. Every electric car with
> more than 15 kWh/100km would fall into the B category.
>
> We had this off-topic discussion just a few month ago. Please look into
> the archive.
I remember the discussion, and did not take part in it because it was off-topic.
This is a different discussion, where you are calling into question
the bbc's statement that only BEVs fell into class A (out of
*available* cars in the UK) - that's fair enough, but who's right?
Firstly, it's 430g CO2/kWh in this country with the standard mix, or 0
CO2/kWh at no extra cost using renewable energy. I don't know how
many Wh/km the available Peugeot Citroen (and Reva) cars use, but I
have seen it stated that they account for approx 80g/km in the UK
(here: http://tinyurl.com/3ovd6). Firmly in the A category?
Is the 3L Lupo available? The smallest diesel engine listed on the VW
UK website is a 1.4, and is rated at 119.00 g/km. The Smart website
says 113 g/km for the smallest petrol engine model, the diesel is not
available.
Please note, I'm not arguing with your assertion that certain, very
efficient diesel cars can produce less CO2/km than say a conversion EV
running on fossil-fuel derived electricity. But mainly because it's
off topic, and a bit irrelevant anyway.
Regards
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: 42-volt starting batteries
> Hello to All,
>
> Raymond Knight wrote:
>
> > First the 42-volt system is really what we would call 36volts. Second
> > don't hold your breathe waiting for the 42volt systems ever see
production.
> > Though it is not dead-dead, it might as well be....
>
> Let's not forget the 42-volt system's biggest connection to the EV world
that has already
> come and for the most part, gone from us...the TMF batteries. The thin
metal film lead
> acid batteries that powered Maniac Mazda to scary 1/4 mile times, the
small Inspira 12V
> modules, were prototypes designed for use in the 36V battery setup for the
42V system. The
> batteries were lightweight and very compact but able to supply HUGE
cranking power. They
> were made for a limited time. I still have one on the shelf as a momento
of the by-gone
> days, the period of EV drag racing where Bolder and Inspira TMF batteries
brought us the 8
> second Current Eliminator, the 9 second Killacycle, and the 11 second
Maniac Mazda.
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
Hi EVerybody:
Thanks John, for the link to reality with the TMF battery. Read the
above and weep! At Woodburn I stood next to Bill Dube and watched that
"Kilocycle "Bike rip off a 152 or so quarter mile. Our jaws dropped to our
knees! What sheer JOY to see that bike go, like shot from a cannon,
controlled perfectly, in a streight line down the strip. Vast power, under
control! Brought to us by Bolder cells. I went home bought 700 bux of their
stock, figuring that the Bolder cell would be a good start for our Perfect
World dream battery, as a booster cell for our led acids, at least.
Again politics raises it's ugly head, like the Ovonic battery, bought
away from the market, too. Maybe the Chinese, out of our political sphere,
will pick this one up?Last stock report quoted my Bolder (Bold) @ 04 CENTS.
Sigh!
And I thought the "8 second Current Elininater, the 9 second Killacycle,
and the 11 second Maniac Mazda" was just the beginning. Wait til NEXT year!
Seeya
Bob
> PS Oh yeah! Don't they sell these little booster car starter packs at
China*Mart and Sears, didn't or don't they use this technology.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: 500A battery load tester
> Yes but at ten times the price....
> Mike G.
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> > Hi All;
I looked at their stuff, too. NO price evident! Guess they arehamed
to say it! If it's 10 times the price of the Harbor Fright one<g>! I'm about
to gofur the HF one, whatdoya think? I feel it would be worthwile thing for
all EVer's to be able to really wring out their batteries to find the bum
ones BEFORE being stranded. Well maybe not 500 amps but it sez that it is
adjustable, like a more on road 200 or so? Been happy with other HF stuff in
the past.
Seeya
Bob
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> I'm just now repairing an EVcort. 108V, regen up to 150A on the
> battery. Drives up to 400A. Sep Ex GE motor 11" motor...
> I think it's a nice system, and the car is very nice to drive,
> but as with my previous experience with Sep Ex and Regen systems
> it's got tradeoffs. Ther is no holy grail here.
Otmar,
Does the motor have interpoles or other compensating windings? If not,
then it is still going to have problems with the optimal brush timing
moving with current. I wouldn't expect it to be much (if any) better
than the same motor as a series motor with regen.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and controllers on Ebay with
about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid for both is in the
range of comparable DC motors and controllers. Granted, it is the small
motor and the non integrated controller, but they look ideal for a small
car conversion. I am suprised that no one is bidding yet. I don't
think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge Caravan conversion, but I
could be wrong.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:57:50 +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
> This is a different discussion, where you are calling into question
> the bbc's statement that only BEVs fell into class A (out of
> *available* cars in the UK) - that's fair enough, but who's right?
Sorry, I didn't know that this low consumption vehicles aren't available
in UK.
Cheers,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:44:57 -0600, Michael Hurley wrote:
> Scarily enough, that /is/ cheap for the American market. 12 - 15
> grand would make it cheaper than almost anything short of the
> ultra-cheap Asian econo-boxes like the low end Kias.
I thought that with all the rebates most of the smaller cars have a
similar price. And of course, the SMART has only two seats.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:24:39 +0000, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
>> I heard on the radio this morning that the government is to introduce
>> a rating scheme for new cars, based on their efficiency (like the
>> rating chart you already get on light bulbs, fridges etc).
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4250987.stm
>>
>> I was pleased to hear that for the A (best) category, they only
>> mentioned one type of vehicle available able that qualifies - an EV!
>>
>> A <100 g/km Battery electric vehicles
>> B 101-150 g/km Toyota Prius 1.5 petrol-electric hybrid, Smart car
>> 0.7 petrol, Citroen C2 1.4 diesel
>
> A SMART diesel has CO2 emissions of about 90-95 gCO2/km. A Lupo 3L TDI
> has even less with 81-88 gCO2/km. Please compute the CO2 emissions of an
> elektric car with the average of 650gCO2/kWh. Every electric car with
> more than 15 kWh/100km would fall into the B category.
Where are you getting your "average of 650gCO2/kWh" from? I think that is
for the US. England has a different power production makeup, 37% Coal,
31.5% NG and the rest is mostly nuclear, hydro and renewable (no net CO2
production). My off-the-cuff calculations indicate an average of
~535gCO2/kWh.
A well built (purpose built) EV could easily do better than 200Wh per mile
or about 125Wh per km, which works out to ~67g/km or <100g/km.
There are a few folks on this list who have built EV conversions that get
~200Wh per mile.
Most (all?) of the "production" EVs from the major US automakers didn't do
this good, but then automakers didn't want them to succeed anyway.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
None of these prices impress me now that I understand what you can do with a
bucket of water.
I made my battery tester with the clamps from an old pair of jumper cables,
some 4 guage and some 18 guage wire. I connected a short piece of 4 guage
wire to each clamp, just long enough to reach from the battery into the
bucket of water. I connect the ends of the 4 guage wire together with 18
guage and keep the 18 guage wire submersed. I short the whole thing across
the battery and read the amps. If I want more amps to flow I make the piece
of 18 guage wire shorter. This is my implemetation of the coat hanger in
the bucket of water trick.
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 500A battery load tester
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:27:19 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: 500A battery load tester
> Yes but at ten times the price....
> Mike G.
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> > Hi All;
I looked at their stuff, too. NO price evident! Guess they arehamed
to say it! If it's 10 times the price of the Harbor Fright one<g>! I'm
about
to gofur the HF one, whatdoya think? I feel it would be worthwile thing for
all EVer's to be able to really wring out their batteries to find the bum
ones BEFORE being stranded. Well maybe not 500 amps but it sez that it is
adjustable, like a more on road 200 or so? Been happy with other HF stuff
in
the past.
Seeya
Bob
> >
> >
>
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While inexpensive small cars *DO* exist in the US, the fact of the
matter is that most cars are in the 15-20k range and up. In fact if you
go to most dealerships and ask what you can purchase in the 10-15K range
the either don't have anything, or they have to special order a
stripped-down, no option model.
One trick a lot of automotive retailers pull is they place an ad saying
something like "Full sized pickups starting at $9898." But when you get
to their lot, they have exactly 1 at that price, it is a butt ugly color
and has -0- options. This is on purpose. The really sad part is just
TRY and buy that truck. They won't sell it to you, because if they did,
their ad would now be a lie, seeing how the *NEXT* least expensive
fullsized truck on their lot is $15,999 or something equally crazy.
James
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 12:26, Emil Naepflein wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:44:57 -0600, Michael Hurley wrote:
>
> > Scarily enough, that /is/ cheap for the American market. 12 - 15
> > grand would make it cheaper than almost anything short of the
> > ultra-cheap Asian econo-boxes like the low end Kias.
>
> I thought that with all the rebates most of the smaller cars have a
> similar price. And of course, the SMART has only two seats.
>
> Emil
>
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4252359.stm
Ratings show how green cars are
Cars will be rated via their CO2 emissions
A new scheme is being launched to tell drivers and car buyers how
environmentally-friendly vehicles are.
Cars will be rated on a scale from A to F, based on their carbon
dioxide (CO2) emissions - the same system already used for fridges.
Only electric vehicles get an A grade. Smaller cars score a C while
4x4 vehicles, such as Land Rovers and Range Rovers, score an F grade.
However, some motoring experts say the government scheme is flawed.
Examples of which cars are in which grade
Under the Department for Transport's new rating system, no petrol or
diesel car gains the A grade for being environmentally-friendly.
Some smaller cars, such as the Ford Focus or Golf, gained a C grade.
'Bowing to pressure'
Most large saloon cars are graded as "E".
Motoring journalist Steve Berry told the BBC there is a basic flaw in
the scheme.
"I wonder if an internal combustion passenger car can ever been truly
green," he said.
"I think it might just be a way of bowing to the pc lobby that seems
to be intent on demonising 4X4s and the people that buy them and drive
them."
He said if the industry was going to really help the environment, it
needed to "move away from diesel and petrol" and "think seriously"
about hydrogen-fuelled technology.
However, he added that all the elements that went into building a car
caused more environmental damage than the car did during its whole
working life. "The most damage to the environment that's ever done by
a motor car is in its creation," he said.
Rating band
CO2 Emissions
Examples
A
<100 g/km
Battery electric vehicles
B
101-120 g/km
Toyota Prius 1.5 petrol-electric hybrid
Smart car 0.7 petrol
Citroen C2 1.4 diesel
C
121-150 g/km
Fiat Panda 1.2 petrol
Ford Ka 1.3 petrol
VW Golf 1.9 TDI diesel
Jaguar X-type 2.0 diesel saloon
D
151-165 g/km
Mini One 1.6 petrol, manual
Ford Fiesta 1.6i petrol
Peugeot 307 1.4 petrol
E
166-185 g/km
Ford Mondeo 1.8i petrol
Vaxhaul Vectra 1.8 petrol
Rover 75 1.8 petrol
Toyota Avensis 1.8 petrol
F
>185 g/km
Land Rover Freelander 2.0 diesel
Audi A4 1.6 petrol saloon
BMW X5 4.8 petrol
Jaguar X-type 2.0 petrol saloon automatic
Toyota RAV4 2.0 petrol
Lamborghini Murcielago 6.2 petrol
Source: Dept for Transport
CO2 emissions can vary significantly within the same model according
to specification, fuel type and whether the car is manual or automatic
--
La Bola Ocho Magica dice: TAL COMO LO VEO, SI
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> Scarily enough, that /is/ cheap for the American market. 12 - 15
> grand would make it cheaper than almost anything short of the
> ultra-cheap Asian econo-boxes like the low end Kias.
Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn all have cars available for less than $12,000.
In fact chevy has one for less than $10,000. Hyundai and Kia both offer
sub $10K, and toyota has at least one for just over $10K.
There are about 40 different cars and trucks available for less than $15k.
Considering how small and light the Smart is, $12-15K seems a little steep
to me.
Now if it was Electric like it should be....
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At 10:37 AM -0800 2-10-05, Lee Hart wrote:
Otmar wrote:
I'm just now repairing an EVcort. 108V, regen up to 150A on the
battery. Drives up to 400A. Sep Ex GE motor 11" motor...
I think it's a nice system, and the car is very nice to drive,
but as with my previous experience with Sep Ex and Regen systems
it's got tradeoffs. Ther is no holy grail here.
Otmar,
Does the motor have interpoles or other compensating windings? If not,
then it is still going to have problems with the optimal brush timing
moving with current. I wouldn't expect it to be much (if any) better
than the same motor as a series motor with regen.
Lee,
As far as I can see, this one does not have interpoles, so yes, that
is sure to be a contributing factor.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: James F. Jarrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: February 10, 2005 6:40 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: OT Zap smart cars
>
>
> I have a question for listers, and we can take it off list if
> needs be.
>
> Ever since the announcement that the Smart Cars were going to
> be available in the US (first by Zap and later by Mercedes).
> I have been chewing on my wife's ear to buy one. She likes
> the idea and we are likely going to buy one but I have one
> concern, how much do they cost?
>
> Go do Zap's web site and you'll see lots of great marketing
> hype (they are masters of this we all know) and several
> things like "Over 55 million dollars in advanced orders etc."
>
> I'm guessing they are taking all the people who, like me are
> on their mailing and "interested parties" lists and
> multiplying that by the cost of the car and getting their
> numbers. But nowhere on their website can I actually find a
> PRICE for one of the cars.
>
> I have e-mailed them twice asking them what the cost will be
> and each time I get a form letter saying how great the Smart
> Cars are (I agree) but they always say something like "price
> to be determined once DOT approval yadda yaddda yadddddda."
>
> If they can't set a price yet, how can they say 55 million in
> advance orders.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy
> have to do to get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
James,
The Smart is already available in Canada, though only the diesel version
is offered. I wouldn't expect the US price to differ significantly.
If you go to the Smart Canada page, you can use the 'configurator' to
get an idea of price (in Canadian $), then convert to $US. FWIW, it
appears the base price is C$16,500 (US$13,300) or C$19,500 for the
'cabriolet' version. A member of our local EV group has one on order,
and as I recall it was up to about $18,000 (US$14,500) by the time he
added some options (such as the paddle shifter for the 6-speed
sequential tranny ;^).
<http://www.smart.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/mpc-ca-content-Site/
en_CA/-/-/SVCPresentationPipeline-Start?Page=issite://smart-Site/smart.c
om/RootFolder/smart/home.page>
>From what I understand, these vehicles are built such that the entire
powertrain drops out easily as a unit for servicing, which should make
it relatively easy to drop the diesel unit and replace it with an
electric one, even though you can't buy an EV version from the factory.
In theory anyway ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn all have cars available for less than
$12,000.
In fact chevy has one for less than $10,000. Hyundai and Kia both
offer
sub $10K, and toyota has at least one for just over $10K.
There are about 40 different cars and trucks available for less than
$15k.
Considering how small and light the Smart is, $12-15K seems a little
steep
to me.
Point taken. But it's a bit disingenuous to compare what in most
important respects is a Mercedes to the stripper versions of the little
econoboxes that GM and the Korean mfgs are cranking out ;).
They also don't get 70 mpg, or attract babes.
-Frank
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If you are going to spend $250 you be better to get
a G tech pro RR ($299)http://www.gtechpro.com/rr.html
On my list of things to do to day. Jeg's is down the street.
Then we could show each other G tech slips and graph's.
Robert Salem
> Not exactly a real Dyno, but I ran accross this last night.
> http://www.auterraweb.com/
>
> This is the universal OBD-II interface and Palm software
> that I use in my Insight. They have a NEW! Dyno Scan!
>
> I'm going to go home and update my old Scan-Only software
> to the new Dyno-Scan and see what it will do. They say
> that it does engine HP/Torque, 0-60, 1/4 mile, and mileage.
>
> Anyway, I guess it doesn't do much good without OBD,
> just thought I'de mention it as yet another method.
> Might be cheaper and more accurate than other windshield Dynos.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
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Are we talking about standard gas Smarts here, or electrics? Because the
last I heard, Zap had (or was getting) the gas ones, but was still trying
to figure out how to convert them to electric.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:26:07 -0500, "Raymond Knight"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First the 42-volt system is really what we would call 36volts. Second
>don't hold your breathe waiting for the 42volt systems ever see production.
>Though it is not dead-dead, it might as well be. The big players have halted
>completely or phased back their research quite a bit.
Yes, the same word I get from my contacts within the industry.
> The biggest hurdle they found was the main fuse to the battery. When it
>blows it is more of a grenade than a fuse, so safety issues surrounding it
>are enormous. Break throughes in rectifier design in past couple of years
>have made the 42-volt system possible a non-necessity as well. With the
>advent of new stator designs, oil cooling, and Mosfet (sp?) rectifiers,
>engineers are now thinking 12 volt 400amp alternators are possible. Though
>the exist now, they are too bulky for most cars.
I haven't heard the fuse as a reason which is not to say it isn't one.
I'd be surprised, though, considering how mature low voltage fusing
technology is.
Reasons I've heard include cost, the expected difficulty of keeping a 36
volt battery equally charged (nothing new there for us), the (finally)
admission that a 12 volt subsystem could not be eliminated and would
therefore require dual systems and probably dual batteries and yowls from
the fringe of the public safety lobby about "high voltage cables".
Another generally unverbalized but know by most involved is the specter
of civil liability gone wild. How could one possibly make a new "high
voltage" (oh my!) system safe enough to escape the personal injury
industry? This is different from the hybrids which contain their high
voltage systems nicely, in that the 42 volt power would be piped around
the car in pretty much the same way as 12 volts. After some knucklehead
pried off whatever protective covers, touches a 42 volt conductor and
claims to have been injured, some scumbag personal injury lawyer would
shop courts in Alabama until he could find a 9 digit verdict.
One other consideration is that there seems to be a general mood of "let's
batten down the hatches and see what happens" for a year or two at least.
Ford, for example, just killed their large 3 valve "hemi killer" truck
engine because of "development costs". In reality the costs were quite in
line with other such programs. These moods come and go, sometimes very
quickly.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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>From all I've ever read about this company, I feel they
would be willing to make a "custom" aluminum flywheel.
Options like: minus the starter ring gear and maybe even a
slight reduction in diameter so long as the pressure plate
still fit.
Scroll way down and look at that lightweight option for the
pressure plate:
http://www.specclutch.com/products.html
http://www.specclutch.com/
Check out the torque capacities for the various clutch
"stages" on the main page for your car.
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>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>If you are going to spend $250 you be better to get
>a G tech pro RR ($299)http://www.gtechpro.com/rr.html
>On my list of things to do to day. Jeg's is down the
>street.
>Then we could show each other G tech slips and graph's.
If you get one, after you post your results from it, you
could potentially mail it to someone on this list and after
they use it, mail it to another person ,and so on. Could be
a way to get some quick hard numbers on various vehicles
using the same test device.. Something to consider atleast.
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