EV Digest 4087
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Controller bypass question
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 42-volt starting batterie-long and partly OT
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Electravan Aux. Battery. The times have changed but are the batteries
better?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Controller bypass question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 42-volt starting batterie-long and partly OT
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 42-volt starting batterie-long and partly OT
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay and other 3 phase motors
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Miscellaneous Set of EV Parts - eBay again!
by "Jeff Dobereiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Smart EV and others
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Controller bypass question- GE control
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay and other 3 phase motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: 500A battery load tester
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Controller bypass question- GE control
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
29) DCDC chip for e-meter
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: What does ELIISA stand for?
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/10/05 12:00:04 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Let's not forget the 42-volt system's biggest connection to
> the EV world that has already come and for the most part,
> gone from us...the TMF batteries. The thin metal film lead
> acid batteries that powered Maniac Mazda to scary 1/4 mile
> times, the small Inspira 12V modules, were prototypes
> designed for use in the 36V battery setup for the 42V system.
> The batteries were lightweight and very compact but able to
> supply HUGE cranking power. They were made for a limited
> time. I still have one on the shelf as a momento of the
> by-gone days, the period of EV drag racing where Bolder and
> Inspira TMF batteries brought us the 8 second Current
> Eliminator, the 9 second Killacycle, and the 11 second Maniac Mazda.
>>
LETS NOT FORGET CIRCUIT BREAKER IT holds the 2nd quickest qt.mile run for an
EV. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For someone who does want AC power in a larger vehicle, it looks to me
like the inverter in question:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525638887
plus one of these Ford motors:
http://tinyurl.com/3nby7
would make a decent relatively inexpensive combination... (?)
--chris
Victor Tikhonov said:
> Wow, an entire section of my web page just copied and pasted on ebay.
> I don't mind, but not even sure if it is legal to do it,
> the site stating that it is copyrighted...
>
> No, this motor will not work well in Caravan - too little thermal
> reserve, despite water cooling. But inverter will since the same
> one used with 45kW rated motors (The one Carl is selling is 18 kW rated).
>
> Victor
>
>
> Paul Wallace wrote:
>> I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and controllers on Ebay with
>> about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid for both is in the
>> range of comparable DC motors and controllers. Granted, it is the small
>> motor and the non integrated controller, but they look ideal for a small
>> car conversion. I am suprised that no one is bidding yet. I don't
>> think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge Caravan conversion, but I
>> could be wrong.
>>
>> Paul Wallace
>> '91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The idea of an auction is to exploit human nature to be competitive,
otherwise you'd just do a sealed bid auction.
With this human nature in mind, it is of no benefit to you to enter a
bid on ebay any sooner than you have to. Bidding early just gives
others more time to outbid you. The trick is to use one of the
sniping services (http://www.esnipe.com or http://www.ezsniper.com)
that will enter your bid in the last few seconds.
The sniping services will make auctions more like Mark's ideal --
people will enter their max bid into the sniping service, and there
will be a flurry of activity in the last few seconds, with no time to
up your bid. It'll be de facto a sealed bid auction then.
EV content: I bid on one of the "Naked Gun" Fieros on Ebay, and got
outbid with about a minute to go by something like $20.
--- Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> The correct behavior on ebay is to bid the maximum you're willing
> to pay
> and be done with it. However, most bidders do not completely grasp
> the
> proxy system (or at least don't bid like they do). Most bids are
> only a
> few bid increments above the current highest bid and buyers
> experiment
> with higher bids after rexamining other bidders activities. The
> more
> likely a bidder feels their chances are to "save a bundle", the
> more
> likely they'll actually bid.
>
> In studies of ebay auctions the existence of a reserve price
> generally
> resulted in a lower final offer, and a much higher rate of auctions
> that
> closed with no bids at all. Its hard to explain, and not at all
> logical, but most bidders do not want to enter their highest bid
> right
> away, and a "reserve not met" message is a strong damper on
> bidding.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a situation where the controller is bypassed, and the
motor is connected directly to the battery pack, how many
amps is the motor pulling in that situation? I know it
depends on the size of the pack in use; but I would like to
know for the setup it's been done with. Has only one person
on this list done it so far?
Basically, was the motor pulling more then 2,000 amps when
directly connected to the batteries?
Also, I keep seeing references that are giving me the
impression where the controller pulls X amps from the pack
and outputs Y to the motor, and somehow, Y is more then X?
How is that so?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I apologize for not being able to quote things properly, and responding all
in one email. One day I will figure out how to get my computer and this list
to work together. LOL.
The film batteries have been copied, or borrowed by Xstatic BatCap. Though I
don't think the performance they have is equal to the Bolder Cells. I also
could be wrong, not knowing the Bolder cells too well.
The safety issue of touching a 42-volt wire is not really any worse than
24volts. 42 volts was chosen as the highest usable voltage because the
charging systems can spike to 52 volts (I think, or close to this). Whatever
the upper threshold is, it is just below what can kill a human being on
contact. Going 48 volts would have made a lot more sense, if it wasn't for
this factor. No matter what voltage it is, there will always be idiots. The
US Navy released a memo telling mechanics not to insert the test leads from
a multi-meter into your skin to check internal resistance, as two guys died
from the 9volt battery.
As far as I know the 42-volt system was always going to have a 12volt system
as well. The 42-volt generator/motor was to be integrated with the flywheel,
and a regular alternator up front. Then with new LED technology rising, some
thought was given to discarding the 12-volt system. I think it is the
lighting that is the only problem with the higher voltages.
"8 second Current Eliminator, the 9 second Killacycle, and the 11 second
Maniac Mazda." I so dearly would love to see any one of these in action. I
brag about what you guys have done all the time, as well as Rod, Otmar, and
a few others. It has helped me get some big time ICE drag racers interested
in EV's. I finally put some customers on hold and started working on my
48-volt bike, it will be done this spring for sure. My main objective is the
100mph club. Next step after that is saving my pennies and getting a Zilla,
going to 144volts, and then chasing Mr. Dube. Also looking to do a door car.
Have a Street Racing Legend up here really interested in it. It will be zero
emissions, i.e. not all electric, and faster than ICE cars in its class. He
got really interested when I showed him how easy it would be to put
15,000+ftlbs to the rear wheels for launches. If my bike works this project
could happen quickly. But one step at a time for now.
So there is some hope for the future. Everyone seems to be getting faster
and faster, records were falling all over the place last year, including
mine. LOL. Rest assured I will be back for vengeance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
This gets back to a question I've raised before. How hard is it to make a
battery? Any product has two main ingredients: what you do, and how you do
it. The "how" is probably not hard. The materials should be available, and
anything a hobbyist can't do should be easy to contract out. Even in small
quantities. Even thin film metal deposition. The "what" is more in the
realm of the electrochemists, but I'm thinking someone with an
electrochemical background could use the patents as a starting point and
come up with something racers and hobbyists would value.
If you could figure out what and how, you will just become
another ordinary battery manufacturer.
If you want to only make a battery for yourself, set up costs
will far exceed the cost of the most exotic battery you can buy.
Same if you want to make a one off nice plastic enclosure case
(like those for GPS'es) and order the form for injection molding
to be used once or twice.
I work for a manufacturer which uses clean room environment.
If I'd be in charge and some one comes to me asking to make
one off thing, I'd most certainly ignore such request even
thiugh technically it is not difficult to execute. Not worth
to bother. And, you can't have clean [enough] room in your
garage, which is *required* for more-less decent batteries.
Not to discourage you, but align with reality.
Now, welcome to still try if you like - there is nothing
to stop anyone from trying, it may even work, but I think it
is better to know ahead of time what are you getting into
to make more educated decision.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Roger Stockton"
>OK; short circuit ratings *are* available for Hawker
>Genesis batteries
>(1400A for the G13, 1600A for the G16, and 2400A for the
>22.3lb G26).
>As I recall, John told me that the G13 (or was it G16?)
>interconnects
>fail at 750A for something like 10s (this data may have
>originated with
>Dennis Berube).
Has there been any attempt to contact the company that makes
these batteries to see if they would be willing to change
the battery to where it could sustain a short circuit rate
to full discharge? Or at least get the interconnects to
hold up better?
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/productInfoDetail.asp?id=100&brandID=3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
That would be me. I was thinking that after owning it for a bit and getting
over the warentee issues I would consider what it would take to make it
electric.
It's been done before, I saw many Smart EVs and almost got a chance to
ride in one. Not too difficult, and some EV components (made by MES-DEA)
are made to fit Smart.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons, delivering Smart
(and labor if needed) to my door.
Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and emails.
Victor
Evan Tuer wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:58:14 -0800, Electro Automotive
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are we talking about standard gas Smarts here, or electrics? Because the
last I heard, Zap had (or was getting) the gas ones, but was still trying
to figure out how to convert them to electric.
Yeah, someone with a Zap email address sent a message to a less busy
EV yahoo group I'm on, offering payment for someone to take Li-ion
batteries and a Smart and cobble them together. This was only a few
months ago.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In 1980 when the 750 was made the Exide Aux. Battery was 90 ah 50 pounds.
The Trojan of today is 105 ah at the same weight. Is this really a better
battey? I just put in the smaller MT24 I believe. 85ah and 6 pounds
lighter. The battery rack was modified for that size battery. I guess 85
to 90 ah is enough aux. battery for the 120v pack.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > You must be bored since you want to argue this point.....
>
> Not really; I just didn't expect there to be an argument. My intent was
> to caution EVers that it may be risky to run out and buy a bunch of
> Orbitals and count on them to reliably deliver several times what the
> *manufacturer* rates them for based on incomplete tests of a few
> samples.
>
It's a LOT less risky when one of us has tested them, and shows the results.
Hence last spring's efforts.
> > I do like the I 2t rating concept.. it's worth keeping in
> > mind and reporting as a figure of merit for Drag racing only
> > bench mark tests. It's pretty clear we took the Orbs close
> > thier limit, but not over it.
>
> Right; you know you were close to the limit, but until you actually push
> the battery over the edge you don't really know how close you were. It
> would be useful to know how many amps they will deliver for 20s (since
> the vast majority of car running 40lb batteries are in the 14-18s range
> rather than 10-12s) without blowing, and then run some tests to see what
> they will survive for say 15s, 10s, and 5s.
>
20sec 15 10 5 OK you owe me 4 Orbitals!!
Not on my budget.
> No, I don't have a pallet of Orbs to send you for testing, and I realise
> you aren't made of money any more than I am. ;^>
>
> > I have been warned that the quality may suffer with newer
> > Lots and designs. We have not seen that yet. Let hope we
> > don't.
>
> Agreed. I just fear that the initial production may have been
> overbuilt/over-designed, and once the Orbital has established itself in
> the marketplace it will be cost-reduced to have a smaller, but still
> adequate, safety margin.
>
> > There is another Data point that you have not
> > mentioned as a published bench mark... and it's the short
> > circuit rating. I don't have it, and I am not sure who would.
>
> > Most of us can't draw even 1000 amp for very long in a real
> > EV, you just run out of road or Guts first.
> >
> > Even Wayland has to work in getting the batteries to be
> > pulled hard from one end of the track to the other. With as
> > much abuse as we did to Gone Postal Nobody ever saw more than
> > 1000 battery amps. Even the motor amps just flicked up to the
> > 1800 to 2000 amp range briefly. We tried to get up there,
> > but things broke first and fast!
> >
> > So... when you draw 1000 amps from a 16 lbs battery... a
> > Hawker or a SVR or a Baby Yellow top, of course you are going
> > to blow it up. Asking for the same amps from a 40 lbs Orb
> > that can dishout almost 2k amps.. well the battery is not the
> > limit... somthing else is. And this is why you can get
> > consistant runs.
>
> OK; short circuit ratings *are* available for Hawker Genesis batteries
> (1400A for the G13, 1600A for the G16, and 2400A for the 22.3lb G26).
> As I recall, John told me that the G13 (or was it G16?) interconnects
> fail at 750A for something like 10s (this data may have originated with
> Dennis Berube).
>
> This certainly suggests that if even the hottest racers can't pull more
> than about 1000 battery amps, then they could almost certainly boost
> their performance with a same voltage string of 22lb G26s than 40lb
> Orbitals, since the G26 interconnects ~ought~ to be good for a fair bit
> more than those of the little G13/G16s. Yeah, it would be nice to have
> tests confirming this too.
>
> > Roger... it LOOKs like we can ask for 1800 amps from most
> > XCD34s, I didn't say I tested the whole lot!! If you doubt
> > me, You run the tests on your cashflow.
>
> I don't doubt your test results, I just caution against extrapolating
> from tests on a few samples to predict the performance of the entire
> production. The samples you tested certainly did what you report, but
> that doesn't mean that every battery on the pallet I buy next month
> will.
>
> Until I build a drag racer, it really doesn't matter to me personally if
> every Orbital can survive 1850A for 10s, but if/when I do build a drag
> race vehicle I will run my own tests on whatever batteries I plan to
> use.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
Yes the Hakwer G26 lbs er...looks like a good match for amps and wieght.
Clearly it's got enough stuff in it to hold most controllers open for a
couple of seconds.
This may be all that is needed. Going too light causes fast pack
aging....(Dennis??? care shed some light on this??) I know John had years of
iffy performance with a set of 16 amphour hawkers.
When they went boy they made some power!!!, But aging and battery to battery
unballences made for lots of not so good runs. Bigger is better for repeat
runs. Well untill you get way too much lead weight and you end up killing
your ET.
Goldie with 40 lbs AGM will have about 4 times the lead She needs to get
down and back. But... I want some street range also.
Anybody had a Orbital fail in high amp mode?????
I think you are over blowing the quality issue. So far it has been very
good. At least here in the States.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on way to many factors to give a simple number as an answer.
It depends on the size of the motor (or more specifically, it's internal
resistance), how fast the motor is turning when the bypass is engaged, the
back EMF of the motor, the voltage of the pack, how stiff the pack is, the
weight of the vehicle, etc. etc. etc.
My truck has one of the old GE controllers with built in bypass contactor.
However, the controller is programmed not to engage the contactor until
certain conditions are met (throttle position, pwm duty cycle, etc.)
I don't recall ever seeing the current go above ~300 amps when the
contactor initially engages.
> In a situation where the controller is bypassed, and the
> motor is connected directly to the battery pack, how many
> amps is the motor pulling in that situation? I know it
> depends on the size of the pack in use; but I would like to
> know for the setup it's been done with. Has only one person
> on this list done it so far?
>
> Basically, was the motor pulling more then 2,000 amps when
> directly connected to the batteries?
>
> Also, I keep seeing references that are giving me the
> impression where the controller pulls X amps from the pack
> and outputs Y to the motor, and somehow, Y is more then X?
> How is that so?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> US Navy released a memo telling mechanics not to insert the test leads
> from
> a multi-meter into your skin to check internal resistance, as two guys
> died
> from the 9volt battery.
Now it's TWO guys, don't you love how these myths spread? (see earlier
posts on ths topic)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I drove the 42 volt GM pick up and was very impressed with it. Small V8 with
lots of power, it would light up the tires at 25 MPH when you stand on it.
Allison trans with the steel rotor plates welded to a small torque converter
and the motor-alternator windings on the inside of the bell housing, under
the back seat was 3 - 12 volt sealed batteries along with the electronics.
They are offering them to fleets for testing, the boss wants them for the
120 volt AC outlet in the bed.
I was at the Allison transmission plant in September and they said things
were still a go, we expect to see some this year.
>From what I remember of the conversation with the rep. the 42 volt system is
more than what we had been originally told, starter-alternator (no alt.
under the hood), has regen, assist acceleration with engine off at a stop
and powers the 120 volt inverter even with the truck turned off with the
keys out, the motor would start to recharge the batteries and then shut off
again.
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
President, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
...
no comparison to retail
Victor does not post the complete price for the drives. (I assume this
is because exchange rates are always changing and he buys the drives
from a European supplier) Without an easy comparison its hard for a
bidder to get excited about how much money they are likely to save.
I do not publish prices per agreement with my supplier. This have
nothing to do with currency fluctuation - I do publish prices for
MES BRUSA and others, and update price list frequently to reflect
current exchange rate - the process is scripted and pretty much
automated, based on exchange rates posted on xe.com
For you all's info, the customer's prices for Siemens hardware,
if expressed in Euros, haven't changed since end of 2001
and are still the same today. What you see in USD is entirely due
to weak dollar, but situation since few weeks ago rutned around
and getting better now.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They probably each stuck one lead from the same multimeter in their
skin and died in instant they shook hands :-)
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
US Navy released a memo telling mechanics not to insert the test leads
from
a multi-meter into your skin to check internal resistance, as two guys
died
from the 9volt battery.
Now it's TWO guys, don't you love how these myths spread? (see earlier
posts on ths topic)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
This is the first time I've seen the Seimovert.
Is that a big Semikron module in the power stage?
Just curious, we used many of those at Baldor.
I have a schematic tucked away in the file cabinent
with all of the gate drive and protection features
included. I wonder how well this would work
with an inverter rated Baldor motor? I know it's
tweaked for that motor but I wonder if there are
settings that can be changed for other motors?
This is standard practice for vector industrial
controls but not sure if this flexability is
incorporated in a dedicated EV control?
Rod
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wow, an entire section of my web page just copied
> and pasted on ebay.
> I don't mind, but not even sure if it is legal to do
> it,
> the site stating that it is copyrighted...
>
> No, this motor will not work well in Caravan - too
> little thermal
> reserve, despite water cooling. But inverter will
> since the same
> one used with 45kW rated motors (The one Carl is
> selling is 18 kW rated).
>
> Victor
>
>
> Paul Wallace wrote:
> > I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and
> controllers on Ebay with
> > about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid
> for both is in the
> > range of comparable DC motors and controllers.
> Granted, it is the small
> > motor and the non integrated controller, but they
> look ideal for a small
> > car conversion. I am suprised that no one is
> bidding yet. I don't
> > think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge
> Caravan conversion, but I
> > could be wrong.
> >
> > Paul Wallace
> > '91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some more clean-up-effort stuff. Nothing big enough to sell on its own,
hoping I can get rid of it as a lot. Afterall, it is listed wicked cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4527211166
I'm trying to make an eBay name for myself, and I figured this might be a
good way to start. After all, you guys know me already! Happy bidding!
-Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
English version of it:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=132&cat_id=1
Few more models:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=131&cat_id=1
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=9&cat_id=1
Few scooters:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/list_catalogo.cfm?cat_id=4&Submit.x=19&Submit.y=8
Vans/trucks
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/list_catalogo.cfm?cat_id=2&Submit.x=14&Submit.y=7
Twike:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/list_catalogo.cfm?cat_id=3&Submit.x=15&Submit.y=12
Victor
Evan Tuer wrote:
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:34:41 +0000, Richard Bebbington
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If Zap are still trying to figure how to "electrify"
Smarts, they should go talk to Zytek.
They did it years ago ( I saw their demonstrator at
EVS17 in Montreal, the first time I sat in a Smart car )
Apparently an electric version is now for sale, with the
Zebra battery system....
That'll be this one.. http://tinyurl.com/5nj8m
Seats : 2
Emissions : CO2/km 0-10
Propulsion type : electric
Number of wheels : 4
Speed : 120 km/h
Consumption : 15.00 kWh/100 km
0-10g/km? That's a bit better than the Diesel one, isn't it Emil? :)
(so I guess Switzerland has all hydro power or something)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unlike DC cyctems, they are not the same. An AC motor will
not work very well unless its parameters are programmed in
in inverter's software - about 20 or so parameters if I recall.
Without it the rotor will sure rotate but it is not safe
for inverter since it muct know stator resistance and
inductance to deal with timing, etc. It will not ride smooth,
overheat, efficiency will be low and other art effects of
mismatch will be very apparent.
For DC sustems you program mainly *limits* for protection
of motor, battery and/or other parts (like you may want to
limit torque noty to break CV joints or strip gears).
As far as I know there is no software motor model
downloadable to a DC controller since controler manufacturer
in general doesn't know what particular motor is going to be
used, unless it is the same manufacturer for both.
May be there are controller accepting DC motor's software
models so the optimal parameters set is applied.
There are many people on this list better qualified to
comment on modern DC setups than me.
Victor
Christopher Zach wrote:
Inverter:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525638887
Hm. Would an inverter like this function as a drop-in replacement for
say a Dolphin based auto? What makes AC motors unique so to speak, or
are they the same from the controller's point of view like an 8 or 9
inch or 11 inch Warp would be to a Zilla?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
I wrote a special program for the EV15 when I was
testing a Taylor Dunn flatbed truck (like the one
mentioned recently on this list).
I pulled in bypass at 55% duty cycle and pulled 800
battery amps (I had a chart recorder going, I wasn't
watching a meter). Peek 800 and quickly dropped.
I think I still have an extra chip laying around if
you want to break your transmission.
Why did I do this test at GE? Just screwing around on
company time :-).
Rod
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It depends on way to many factors to give a simple
> number as an answer.
>
> It depends on the size of the motor (or more
> specifically, it's internal
> resistance), how fast the motor is turning when the
> bypass is engaged, the
> back EMF of the motor, the voltage of the pack, how
> stiff the pack is, the
> weight of the vehicle, etc. etc. etc.
>
> My truck has one of the old GE controllers with
> built in bypass contactor.
> However, the controller is programmed not to engage
> the contactor until
> certain conditions are met (throttle position, pwm
> duty cycle, etc.)
> I don't recall ever seeing the current go above ~300
> amps when the
> contactor initially engages.
>
> > In a situation where the controller is bypassed,
> and the
> > motor is connected directly to the battery pack,
> how many
> > amps is the motor pulling in that situation? I
> know it
> > depends on the size of the pack in use; but I
> would like to
> > know for the setup it's been done with. Has only
> one person
> > on this list done it so far?
> >
> > Basically, was the motor pulling more then 2,000
> amps when
> > directly connected to the batteries?
> >
> > Also, I keep seeing references that are giving me
> the
> > impression where the controller pulls X amps from
> the pack
> > and outputs Y to the motor, and somehow, Y is more
> then X?
> > How is that so?
> >
> >
>
>
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Yes, Simotions use Semicron 6 pack IGBT modules. No secret,
this stage is really generic for many inverters though.
Victor
Rod Hower wrote:
Victor,
This is the first time I've seen the Seimovert.
Is that a big Semikron module in the power stage?
Just curious, we used many of those at Baldor.
I have a schematic tucked away in the file cabinent
with all of the gate drive and protection features
included. I wonder how well this would work
with an inverter rated Baldor motor? I know it's
tweaked for that motor but I wonder if there are
settings that can be changed for other motors?
This is standard practice for vector industrial
controls but not sure if this flexability is
incorporated in a dedicated EV control?
Rod
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Wow, an entire section of my web page just copied
and pasted on ebay.
I don't mind, but not even sure if it is legal to do
it,
the site stating that it is copyrighted...
No, this motor will not work well in Caravan - too
little thermal
reserve, despite water cooling. But inverter will
since the same
one used with 45kW rated motors (The one Carl is
selling is 18 kW rated).
Victor
Paul Wallace wrote:
I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and
controllers on Ebay with
about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid
for both is in the
range of comparable DC motors and controllers.
Granted, it is the small
motor and the non integrated controller, but they
look ideal for a small
car conversion. I am suprised that no one is
bidding yet. I don't
think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge
Caravan conversion, but I
could be wrong.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
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--- Begin Message ---
Raymond Knight wrote:
> First, the 42 volt system is really what we would call 36 volts.
Absolutely correct. Calling it "42 volts" is idiosyncratic obfuscation
of its intrinsic modality. :-)
> Second, don't hold your breathe waiting for the 42 volt systems
> ever see production. Though it is not dead-dead, it might as well
> be.
Well, it is dead for now. But it will resurface. The basic idea is
sound; raise the system voltage to get the current down. They already do
this in trucks, buses, aircraft, etc. Only they had the sense to move
from 12v to 24v; not 36v.
I think 24v is the logical next move for cars. Change everything to 24v,
and eliminate the 12v system. Every part they need -- lights, relays,
motors, switches, fuses, etc. are already designed and available.
>> The biggest hurdle they found was the main fuse to the battery.
Neon John wrote:
> I haven't heard the fuse as a reason which is not to say it isn't one.
> I'd be surprised, though, considering how mature low voltage fusing
> technology is.
I agree. With any decent fuse, this can't be a problem.
Now, if they wanted to keep using 12v fuses on 36v, no wonder they fail
dramatically! Most 12v fuses are junk; made with flammable plastics,
cheap metal alloys, and worthless fuseholders. They even melt and start
fires on 12v!
> Reasons I've heard include cost, the expected difficulty of keeping
> a 36 volt battery equally charged (nothing new there for us), the
> (finally) admission that a 12 volt subsystem could not be eliminated
> and would therefore require dual systems and probably dual batteries
These are the reasons I hear cited, too. Most fundamentally, the
purported cost savings of a "42v" system just plain did not materialize.
> Another generally unverbalized but know by most involved is the
> specter of civil liability gone wild. How could one possibly
> make a new "high voltage" (oh my!) system safe enough to escape
> the personal injury industry?
This is mostly a bogeyman -- a plausible sounding excuse not to do
something you've already decided you don't want to do. As soon as there
is a real cost savings, these bogeymen are quickly shoved back into the
closet and forgotten.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
At 04:32 PM 2/10/05 -0800, you wrote:
Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons, delivering Smart
(and labor if needed) to my door.
Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and emails.
Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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--- Begin Message ---
I did a search on the part numbers and came up with the prices. Keep in
mind I'll bet the Autometer load tester is of a quality much higher that
the HF one, but for $50 I will probably buy it also.
Mike G.
Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: 500A battery load tester
Yes but at ten times the price....
Mike G.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Hi All;
I looked at their stuff, too. NO price evident! Guess they arehamed
to say it! If it's 10 times the price of the Harbor Fright one<g>! I'm about
to gofur the HF one, whatdoya think? I feel it would be worthwile thing for
all EVer's to be able to really wring out their batteries to find the bum
ones BEFORE being stranded. Well maybe not 500 amps but it sez that it is
adjustable, like a more on road 200 or so? Been happy with other HF stuff in
the past.
Seeya
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Rod Hower"
>I think I still have an extra chip laying around if
>you want to break your transmission.
It's rated at 600 lb-ft:
http://ddperformance.com/3550tko5spd.htm
How much torque can a 9" Warp put out using the bypass and a
300 volt setup?
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--- Begin Message ---
Despite horrible reputation of ZAP I don't care about, I'd do it
for fixed fee - for learning experience if not anything else.
But when they offered stock shares as a apyment instead,
that was the end of conversation. They never sounded serious.
Electro Automotive wrote:
At 04:32 PM 2/10/05 -0800, you wrote:
Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons, delivering Smart
(and labor if needed) to my door.
Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and emails.
Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7953647547
I'd love a controller that I could build myself, but "My home built controller
is not made of relays or contactors or electronic circuitry" - maybe, but at
what kind of efficiency?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
Just clearing out unused parts from CivicWithACord.
I had bought this power supply (E-meter needs +/- 12V
supply, of course), then made it useless by upgrading
my vehicle DCDC to the model that has the power supply
for the E-meter _built in_.
So, if you have $12, I'll ship it. It has been
carefully soldered to perfboard and fuse added, but
you can still desolder and put it into your own board.
You won't be able to beat the price.
I'm at 1137 NW Morgan Lane, Grants Pass, OR 97526.
First come, first serve.
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:28 PM -0500 on 2/8/05, EAA-contact wrote:
I thought I saw a recent email from someone who had a
definition for "ELIISA", but I can't find it. Anyone
know if this is an abbrev. for something tangible?
-Ed
This is for the Eliisa EV in Japan, successor of the KAZ. I thought
someone described it as Electric Lithium Ion .....
The successor to the KAZ is the Eliica, not the Eliisa.
http://www.eliica.com/
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
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--- Begin Message ---
This has been definitely been answered before by those who have tried.
But maybe people could actually read replies to posts...
Seth
On Feb 10, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Edward Ang wrote:
If you find it hard to believe one way or the other,
just do a test with 2 shunts and 2 E-meters and watch
the current sharing behavior. You could have the 2
shunts/E-meter always connected just in case there are
long term problems.
Then, tell us one way or the other.
Ed Ang
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No one has authoratatively said yes. Some say not
no. I am totally
confused and went to one string on a different
vehicle. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
Quick verify: Can one run strings of flooded NiCDs
in parallel?
Chris
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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