EV Digest 4098
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Does Such an Electric Vehicle Exist?
by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Does Such an Electric Vehicle Exist?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:"Current EVents" was: EV snow blowers?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Watering BB600's.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Red Beastie specs
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) optima vs flooded...again
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Watering BB600's.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) optima vs flooded...again
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 500A battery load tester
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fun, regrets, and performance of 200sx
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Making our own batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hopper cars
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Red Beastie specs
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Red Beastie specs
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "Current EVents" was: EV snow blowers?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hydraulic eff.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I had plans for a SAFT-aware controller for the PFC-20 but never built it.
When you say "PLANS" Ralph is that a circuit or a wish? If it is a circuit
could you share with the list? Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like I need to clarify what I'm looking for.
I need a small electric bike/motorcycle/car that can tow a small trailer
that has a heavy freezer on it, roughly 800 lbs. + the driver. The EV will
make lots of stops & needs to get good mileage per charge.
Any direction & help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mac
= = =
Looking for electric vehicle with good range (50 miles +) & that can tow
around 900 lbs.
Please send suggestions/links/ideas/contacts.
Thanks!
Mac
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Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I am out of luck. It sounds very much like my Think Neighbor
charger. Just a little louder. It does diminish during float. I'm still
having trouble with the float on the 12v system. It just won't go to 1 amp.
It think the battery is bad. I tried another charger and it won't taper to
1amp. Every good battery I ever had tapered. This is a Trojan 85 amp 12v
24MT I think. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Does Such an Electric Vehicle Exist?
Dave wrote:
Would isolating the transformer with rubber padding or similar material
help? I assume it is vibrating against a solid metal object.
I suspect the noise is coming from a constant-voltage transformer in the
charger. This type of transformer drives the iron core into saturation.
The iron actually flexes and changes shape due to the tremendous force
in it. This flexing of the core causes the audible "buzz" you hear.
Of course, the buzz can be *substantially* worsened by poor mounting or
loose parts.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Jim Coate"
>In the Nov/Dec issue of "Current EVents"
Whats that? Have a link too it? Hard to find it with a
search engine considering the words..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have got to be kiddin! LR..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
Are you serious??
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/14/05 3:33:28 PM >>>
Here's my note:
Thank you for stepping away from your pseudo-econazi persona long
enought
to help sue the state of California into some semblence of rationality
over the global warming fiction and other transportation balderdash.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was warned streniously not to consider auto watering. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: Watering BB600's.
I was thinking about options on building an auto-watering system for BB600
batteries in my head today. One of the problems though would be the danger
of having a water system connecting a 300+ volt string of batteries. Could
be odd.
However what if one built several watering circuits, each one say serving
48 or so volts of battery? Would this work, or would there still be
voltage potential issues?
Are the TEVan watering circuits one long string or a bunch of little ones?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the best/easiest one i know is MAX712, you can charge all cells you want
using this nicad careful brain :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
> I had plans for a SAFT-aware controller for the PFC-20 but never built it.
>
> When you say "PLANS" Ralph is that a circuit or a wish? If it is a
circuit
> could you share with the list? Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.........
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just the kind of EV I want
So John, you use the FB-4001, not the 4001A? Is the cost of the dual shaft
not worth the potential of hooking something up to it? And 40 T-105's, wow,
2,400 lbs, so obviously a set of HD springs. Have you ever considered using
L-16's? they are about the same in AH, but only 6 inches taller (420 AH at
20 hr rate, 11.5" x 7" x 16.75" and weight 121 lbs each, much heavier to
move around....) so you save about 3 cu ft and that would mean only 1
string instead of 2 strings at 120 VDC. Does hooking up 2 strings mean more
hardware? it means more cable/metal/lugs/crimping/$/etc. Also the footprint
of the batteries is much smaller, 20.5 sq ft for the 105's vs 11.35 sq ft
for the L16's, 35% smaller.
Want range?. I'd go with 20 t-145's.
What about your controller? The description of the 'Beastie' says a
DCP-1200, but one of the pictures shows a liquid-cooled Auburn Kodiak MPC
controller. Here in AZ it gets pretty hot in the summer and under the hood
even hotter, so I guess liquid cooled components are the best way to go if
they don't drain too much power for the pumps. Or a Zilla?
I also see that the battery connections are bus bar types. Is that a better
connector for the amps than a cable and lug? easier to make?
Charger - at home I can use 240 so what is a good 120/240 charger?
A PFC 50. at least. www.manzanitamicro.com
Also I still don't grasp the concept of not shifting, leaving it in 2nd
gear and letting the rpms do the work - on the highway, wouldn't it be
better to shift up to 3rd or even 4th or is it that the torque would not be
enough to sustain the speed?
If you let motor rpms drop too low, things will get very hot, not good.
And I understand that it
is possible to shift with out using the clutch?
I wouldn't recommend shifting without the clutch.
Anyway, all and any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
You are indeed welcome. Regards, A.K. Howard in the cool Las Vegas
valley, in amateur rant mode and enjoying life at 8 cents per kwh.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings everyone.
I'm looking for your knowledgeable opinions concerning this possibility.
The candidate: a early 1980's Datsun sedan. It has a 114 volt system
containing 19 T-105 type batteries.
The possiblilities: A new pack of ten 12 volt optima d-31 (75 ah) for 120
volts. Pack would weigh about 600 lbs.
Or putting in a new pack of 19 t-105's weighing about 1200 lbs.
Range is not an issue. Candidate vehicle not expected to exceed 20 miles
before recharging.
Acceleration is very important, to keep up with average traffic,
especially when starting out when a stoplight turns green. Long moderate
grades (3-4 percent) are involved here.
In the summer 110 degrees in the shade is common.
Charger issues have been addressed.
Please do not use cost as a factor here.
Watt do you think. Regards, A.K. Howard in Las Vegas.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread has now wandered away and is about to sink into the abyss of
endless posturing and probably ill chosen words.
Can we just drop it now?
There are some wildly divergent opinions in this thread, but this list is
not the place to share them. If you wish to exchange views on this feel
free to do so by direct email, but please don't do it here.
In the future it would be a good idea if we all tried to refrain from
intentionally inflammatory comments.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2005 at 21:04, Chris Zach wrote:
> Are the TEVan watering circuits one long string or a bunch of little ones?
I don't know how the TEVan is set up, but Saft's documentation recommends
limiting voltage across a single watering circuit to 60 volts.
> would it not be possible to essentially put a T
> fitting on the top of each BB600 cell ...
Scroll to the bottom of this page :
http://www.tokki.org/ev/pages/saft.htm
for a drawing of the Saft watering caps and a description of their
operation.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sigh. Some people just get their jollies by seeing other people get angry,
so they deliberately post inflammatory material. I think the Usenet term
for such people is "trolls."
The best way to deal with trolls is to isolate them - never respond to ANY
of their posts, even the non-controversial ones. Eventually they get bored
and toddle off to play in the traffic.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
War is an option whose time has passed; peace is the only
option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous
no man's land between peace and war, a time of growing fear
that our miltary might has expanded beyond our capacity to
control it and our political differences [have] widened beyond
our ability to bridge them ... the only way to achieve a
practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is
to take the profit out of war.
-- Richard Nixon, "Real Peace"(1983)
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:24 PM -0800 2-14-05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Count amount of resistors, capacitors, ICs and heat sinks in both
types - roughly the same.
So just about the same effort to produce (provided software amortized
100%). So the price difference manufactirer choose to charge customer
does not directly reflect manufacturer's cost. It is what cistomer
willing to pay.
I think it is only because AC inverters *typically* do more
sophisticated things than just PWM battery power to the motor.
If AC inverters would do just that, their cost would be only
as much higher as cost of power stage semiconductors is, not
more. Main coat comes from the software developing and extra
features already there (like regen) people get charged for
(it doesn't nesessarily mean it is more difficult to produce).
I think industial AC inverters made in millions cost less
than Zilla made in small quantities, are they?
Certainly not!
Take my most popular Zilla, the 156V rated Z1K-LV that sells retail
$1975. That's 160 HP. Try finding a 160 HP AC controller for under
$2000. I think you'll have a hard time finding that. A quick look at
the Grainger catalog shows the largest one they sell being 125 HP,
and costing from $15,000 to $20,000. But to be fair, most AC drives
can do 2X overload for peak power so lets compare to a 75 HP drive.
Those range from $9600 to $15,000. Still at least 5 times the cost
of the Zilla DC drive.
Or take the top of the line 348V 2000A Zilla that sells for $4900.
That's about 700 peak HP at the shaft if you had the batteries to
drive it. This comes to about $7.14 per HP. Try finding that in a AC
drive of any sort.
I have built both AC and DC systems and of course I pay a lot of
attention to cost. I agree that the development cost is higher for AC
drives, but even when that is fully amortized (or as is more common
in this industry, given away!) the AC drives do cost more.
AC controllers are quite a bit more expensive per KW to build. They
have 6 times the gate driver circuits, more than twice the processor
power, three times or more the cost to measure current and the power
section (which includes the heatsink in my calculations) costs 2 to 4
times as much as a similar DC controller. Resistors don't matter on
the price, but power devices, current measuring, gate drive and
heatsinks sure do.
Of course all these effects are highly dependent on the particular
design and application. The best representative case that I know of
was one where I was asked to replace a DC controller that I had
designed with a AC one. The application was identical and *very* cost
sensitive. In the end I worked the AC controller down to 140% of the
cost of the DC controller. This was for a very high volume design so
the development costs were next to nil. I think this is a reasonable
target, and I hope that someday I can offer a 150 HP AC drive for
about $3000.
The difficulty in comparing EV controllers that you can buy on the
market today is that they are optimized differently. The Siemens
controllers, like many AC controllers, try to keep the controller
cost down by raising the system voltage. This makes sense if you are
trying to make a cheaper controller, but the economics become worse
if you look at the balance of the system. You are now severely
handicapped by requiring a high voltage battery system. This of
course increases costs quite a bit, and theoretically reduces
reliability. You can thankfully run them at lower voltage, but then
the power is closer to that of a Curtis.
Still, I understand their logic because building a high power low
voltage AC controller really showcases the increased cost of the AC
controller.
Don't get me wrong, I drove AC for many years, and I like it a lot,
but one thing it's not is "less expensive".
Now, if you take the motor into consideration then the argument can
become much closer. When you start producing hundreds of thousands of
AC systems (motor and controller) the situation gets much closer
because the AC motors are much cheaper to make than the DC motors.
The AC system still costs more, but it's not that much more and as
power electronics slowly get better the argument for AC gets better
as well.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a.k. howard wrote:
>The possiblilities: A new pack of ten 12 volt optima
>d-31 (75 ah) for 120
>volts. Pack would weigh about 600 lbs.
>
>Or putting in a new pack of 19 t-105's weighing
>about 1200 lbs.
Neither.
How about 26 Optima D750 yellowtops in series for 312V or
two strings of 156V in parallel? Would weigh 1,170 pounds.
You'd have amazing range AND acceleration, regardless of
whether either is an issue or not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:35:17 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As someone who DOES have one of these testers (from Northern tool but the
same thing), I have to disagree. This is an adequate tester for the
average DIYer. That is, someone who is not going to be testing batteries
all day every day. It applies the load, it reads the volts and amps with
adequate accuracy and it beeps when the time is up. Not much more one
could ask.
Faults? yep, it has a few. The tempco of the pile (more likely the
stainless steel mechanism) is such that as it heats up one must "ride the
gain" to keep the amps stable. The beeper is lame sounding. It gets
quite hot. After a couple of tests the fixed resistor elements are
glowing red hot.
I also have one of these testers, and I agree completely. While not the
highest in quality it is a useable tool for the hobbyist. Two things I might
add
though. It is not designed for 6V batteries, however I tried it on a 6V SLI and
was able to draw 230A Maximum. This may not be too useful for Golf car batt
users. Also mine has the occasional bad habit of not removing all of the load
when I am cranking down the load. This usually happens while I am being slow
about turning the dial. Apparently the mechanism sticks with about 40A left. A
light rap on the front panel cures the problem instantly.
Rick Miller
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick buddy, I've forgotten your pack voltage. Let's
see... 875s are the 8 volters, if I recall, so that
puts my resting pack voltage of 153V on a 144 V pack
at 2.125 VPC. You have 80 cells, so that's 170V, as
you (correctly) note.
All I can figure is you've got some current leak
somewhere dropping the voltage down somewhere.
Is your DCDC constantly on? Hmmm. That doesn't
square with you saying you disconnect "all loads".
I'll bet another LISTer says tests of individual
batteries will indicate you've got a stinker in the
pack somewhere.
Nothing else seems to fit... (:-<
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I recently watered the 20 Trojan T-875 batteries
> which are in my Jeep.
> As per Trojan's recommendation, I added water after
> a charge cycle, and
> used distilled water.
>
> Before the watering, I'd noticed that after the
> charger would finish,
> the battery pack voltage would fall until it hit
> about 168 volts, where
> it would rest (no load on the batteries). According
> to specs, 100%
> state of charge open circuit voltage should be about
> 8.49 volts per
> battery or 169.9 volts for the pack.
>
> Well, now when the charge cycle ends, I see the
> battery voltage rest at
> 163 to 164 volts. Even if I disconnect all loads
> immediately after the
> charger times out, the voltage will fall (fairly
> quickly) until it gets
> to 163-164 volts. I've also just noticed that the
> pack voltage seems to
> sag a lot more than it used to under load, and my
> range has decreased.
>
> Did I do something wrong here? I've now charged the
> batteries 4 times
> since adding water, and nothing seems to be
> improving. Maybe this is all
> a coincidence and has nothing to do with my watering
> the batteries?
>
> P.S. I do still have a Lee Hart battery bridge LED
> circuit connected to
> the pack while driving. I've yet to see any of the
> red LEDs light up...
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone!
I've been having a blast driving the 200sx. For all of you that put in
a guess for the 0-60 time - are you ready....??
10.9s
...just kidding :) That would be great!
I'm waiting for better weather. At least 50 degrees, and clear roads.
That free CafeElectric T-shirt will still be coming to the winner. I've
had about 20 entries so far. Everyone is still welcome to throw their
guess in the pot.
I thought I'd comment on one thing from this post.
Rush wrote:
Also I still don't grasp the concept of not shifting, leaving it in
2nd gear and letting the rpms do the work - on the highway, wouldn't
it be better to shift up to 3rd or even 4th or is it that the torque
would not be enough to sustain the speed? And I understand that it is
possible to shift with out using the clutch?
I have been very happy with my clutch. I don't use it very much, but
when I do, I'm glad I have it. I really like knowing that I have a
physical disconnect between the motor and driveline if the breaker,
fuse, and controller fail open.
I usually keep the 200sx in 2nd gear up to about 35mph. 3rd will
probably take it up to as fast as I can legally drive within my 6 mile
range. Yep, you heard it right - my range right now is maxxed out at
about 6 miles. It's been a bit of an adjustment, but I really love
driving it!
There aren't that many things I would have done different on the
conversion. The only change I'm considering at this point is leaving
the DC/DC converters on all the time except for when the traction pack
is being charged. I've found my 12V battery dead a few times. The
Zilla draws 30mA or so even when off. The dashboard clock draws a
little. Those combined with the interior lights when opening the doors
seem to be enough to drag it down. And where I drive so little each
day, the SLI battery doesn't get charged up enough. Half the problem
might be that I bought the cheapest 12V battery Autozone sold. I'm
kicking myself for that.
Eventually I will design some circuitry to shut the motor blower off if
the motor isn't at a certain temperature. I am also going to re-design
my heater circuitry to prevent the elements from being on if the blower
isn't *moving* air through the heater elements. I designed it to take a
12V signal from the blower switch, as well as the heat slider selection
switch to choose how hot the air should be. Then one night I left the
ignition on to charge up that 12V battery, and came out a couple hours
later to the smell of melting plastic. It turns out that the blower
switch was in between settings, and the blower wasn't turning. The 12V
signal was telling my circuitry that it was fine to leave the heater
elements blazing away. Fortunately, the ceramic elements do self-limit
themselves, preventing the vehicle from burning down, but I'm still
living with a fairly distinct smell of burnt plastic everytime I turn
the heater on. That's very frustrating. I think I would have put in
the Mass Air Flow sensor that came from the original motor to detect air
flow. If air isn't flowing - don't let the heater elements be on.
Those are my biggest complaints - not too bad I think for a first
conversion. I'm often very surprised that it is driving down the road
with great acceleration and fairly reliable (I'm hoping to have it very
reliable as I work out little bugs here and there). It's very fun to
hear people's reaction to the car. Most people are quite amazed.
I promise I will eventually get pictures on the EV Source website. Once
again, homework, work, and family has taken precedence. But eventually
I get it up!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Makeing lead acid batteries is probably not feasable from the cost
standpoint, to many people already doing large volumns at good costs.
-- Not worth the effort--
I have been looking at makeing li-ion to see if it is feasable, on the
outside chance that
a) importing adds significant cost
b) a choice that I would make that is not in the current battery makers'
best interest may pay off in long run
i.e. changing the anode material to achieve 10X cycle life but at
a 2.5 Volt cell. So a loss of 20+% capacity.
personally a longer life pack that lies between lead acid and
litium-ion cap/lb and < 7% self discharge/month would be ideal
c) the simple 100 cells per month operation has very minimal equipment
amortization , allowing to start small and grow.
d) Low cost cathode material, internal Thermocouple, and
re-sealable/rebuildable case design options.
the magenase cathod material is 1/10 the cobalt based, are the cells
significantly cheaper? No.
In a 100ah cell ~1400grams is cathode material, it constitutes 3/4 of
the cell price in cobalt based chemisties.
wouldn't a set off inexpensive and recyclable litium-ion cells be great.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
Can you tell us how much those bags cost or can you direct to a price list?
Not only would they be worth a look for EV suspensions, but 4 of them might
just be the ticket for a battery pack lift for my G-vans. I was thinking of
using a Mat Jack, but the air springs are very appealing. Is there any
particular units that you would recommend for say 500 lbs lift (ea) and 6-8"
or better extension? And is this doable with 125 psi compressed air? If so,
I could build basically a large HD 6 wheel creeper with an airbag at each
corner. Roll it under the van, extend the bags to the bottom of the pack and
then pull the bolts, let the air out and then skate the pack right out from
under. Would make a tough task fairly simple. BTW, if anyone in your circle
needs some lightweight HP bottles, I have a pair of helicopter LG blow down
bottles for sale relatively cheap. Would be easy to hide along the frame
rails or such, 4"dia x 4'long, 525 CI, 3,500 psi.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: Hopper cars
Everthing I seen being done for competition out here in California is with
a nitrogen bottle ,expansion tank and air bags. Some vehcles are trailered
to the site and don't even have a motor in them. Some use remote tanks and
a nitrogen hose to the vehicle.
I am afraid the revolution has already occured.
<shamefull plug>
If anyone on the list thinks airbags will help there EV suspension
woes, drop me a line. We make the "slam bags" where I work and they can
handle the added weight no problem.
I personally like the simplicity of springs and they are easier to
dampen. I have heard the slam bags are so stiff that they have a natural
dampening effect.
http://www.slamspecialties.com/
</shamefull plug>
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--- Begin Message ---
Rush,
There was a fellow in AJ that had a Mazda with IIRC an 11" GE and a power
shuttle type torque converter setup that I think he was considering
finishing or selling. I looked at it a couple 3 years ago, made a couple
suggestions but have never seen it around or even up for sale. Then again
hes on the other side of the world, Phx wise. Maybe you could track him
down? Sorry, other than he was a real nice fellow and had a bitchen
house/acreage/shop and lived on the outskirts I can't remember his name or
contact info. Barring that why not look for a Mazda or similar small PU and
do a conversion? Especially if you are going to build a custom flatbed, room
for plenty of batts, should be lots of rustfree trucks with dead engines
floating around here. I always liked the Mazda extended cab B-2600s or
similar, cheap and plentiful and were a pretty solid chassis, easy to get
parts for , pretty good looking with modern interiors.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Red Beastie specs
John,
Just the kind of EV I want
I am in Tucson AZ, actually outside in 3 Points and so if I go into town,
shopping, movie whatever, then it is about a 80-100 mile trip. Coming back
to my place I have a slight incline, 1% for about 4 miles. The truck I am
looking for can be anything, S-10, Ranger, Toyota... I plan to take the
bed out, lower the batteries as much as possible and put in a flat bed
(wooden? no sides, just stake holes) so that if I want I can put stuff on
top.
So John, you use the FB-4001, not the 4001A? Is the cost of the dual shaft
not worth the potential of hooking something up to it? And 40 T-105's,
wow, 2,400 lbs, so obviously a set of HD springs. Have you ever considered
using L-16's? they are about the same in AH, but only 6 inches taller (420
AH at 20 hr rate, 11.5" x 7" x 16.75" and weight 121 lbs each, much
heavier to move around....) so you save about 3 cu ft and that would mean
only 1 string instead of 2 strings at 120 VDC. Does hooking up 2 strings
mean more hardware? it means more cable/metal/lugs/crimping/$/etc. Also
the footprint of the batteries is much smaller, 20.5 sq ft for the 105's
vs 11.35 sq ft for the L16's, 35% smaller.
What about your controller? The description of the 'Beastie' says a
DCP-1200, but one of the pictures shows a liquid-cooled Auburn Kodiak MPC
controller. Here in AZ it gets pretty hot in the summer and under the hood
even hotter, so I guess liquid cooled components are the best way to go if
they don't drain too much power for the pumps. Or a Zilla?
I also see that the battery connections are bus bar types. Is that a
better connector for the amps than a cable and lug? easier to make?
Charger - at home I can use 240 so what is a good 120/240 charger?
Also I still don't grasp the concept of not shifting, leaving it in 2nd
gear and letting the rpms do the work - on the highway, wouldn't it be
better to shift up to 3rd or even 4th or is it that the torque would not
be enough to sustain the speed? And I understand that it is possible to
shift with out using the clutch?
Anyway, all and any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Midsized pickup, 9 inch series wound motor, 5 speed tranny, 40, T-105 6V
golf car
batteries @120V. A real 120 miles range under ideal conditions, 80 or so
under less than
ideal conditions, and able to tow 4000+ lbs. for 45 miles at 50-55 mph.
See the EV photo Album and check out Red Beastie in the Toyota section:
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
Rush, I forgot to mention that I have a very nice 240-480 volt input
Chloride Electronetworks outdoor charger for sale pretty reasonable. I
believe its currently set up for 36 x 6 volt flooded (108 cells). I forget
the exact specs without lookin at the Data plate, but it was originally
designed/used to recharge the large G-van packs, probably be great for your
needs (if you do a red beastie type conversion). Contact me OL if you would
like more info, pics etc.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Red Beastie specs
John,
Just the kind of EV I want
I am in Tucson AZ, actually outside in 3 Points and so if I go into town,
shopping, movie whatever, then it is about a 80-100 mile trip. Coming back
to my place I have a slight incline, 1% for about 4 miles. The truck I am
looking for can be anything, S-10, Ranger, Toyota... I plan to take the
bed out, lower the batteries as much as possible and put in a flat bed
(wooden? no sides, just stake holes) so that if I want I can put stuff on
top.
So John, you use the FB-4001, not the 4001A? Is the cost of the dual shaft
not worth the potential of hooking something up to it? And 40 T-105's,
wow, 2,400 lbs, so obviously a set of HD springs. Have you ever considered
using L-16's? they are about the same in AH, but only 6 inches taller (420
AH at 20 hr rate, 11.5" x 7" x 16.75" and weight 121 lbs each, much
heavier to move around....) so you save about 3 cu ft and that would mean
only 1 string instead of 2 strings at 120 VDC. Does hooking up 2 strings
mean more hardware? it means more cable/metal/lugs/crimping/$/etc. Also
the footprint of the batteries is much smaller, 20.5 sq ft for the 105's
vs 11.35 sq ft for the L16's, 35% smaller.
What about your controller? The description of the 'Beastie' says a
DCP-1200, but one of the pictures shows a liquid-cooled Auburn Kodiak MPC
controller. Here in AZ it gets pretty hot in the summer and under the hood
even hotter, so I guess liquid cooled components are the best way to go if
they don't drain too much power for the pumps. Or a Zilla?
I also see that the battery connections are bus bar types. Is that a
better connector for the amps than a cable and lug? easier to make?
Charger - at home I can use 240 so what is a good 120/240 charger?
Also I still don't grasp the concept of not shifting, leaving it in 2nd
gear and letting the rpms do the work - on the highway, wouldn't it be
better to shift up to 3rd or even 4th or is it that the torque would not
be enough to sustain the speed? And I understand that it is possible to
shift with out using the clutch?
Anyway, all and any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Midsized pickup, 9 inch series wound motor, 5 speed tranny, 40, T-105 6V
golf car
batteries @120V. A real 120 miles range under ideal conditions, 80 or so
under less than
ideal conditions, and able to tow 4000+ lbs. for 45 miles at 50-55 mph.
See the EV photo Album and check out Red Beastie in the Toyota section:
See Ya......John Wayland
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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--- Begin Message ---
"Current EVents" is the newsletter published by the Electric Auto
Association (http://www.eaaev.org/)
The EAA is "a non-profit organization for the promotion of Electric
Vehicles"... it is made up of mostly grass-roots EV types, rather than
being a slick industry group. And yes, I'm a member :-)
If you are lucky there is a chapter near you, or you can join at the
national level.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
From: "Jim Coate"
In the Nov/Dec issue of "Current EVents"
Whats that? Have a link too it? Hard to find it with a
search engine considering the words..
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> How about a hollow shaft AC motor with a limited slip diffy and
>> single reduction inside at each axel, then conventional CV axles
>> from there.
Could work. Just remember that there are some pretty intense magnetic
fields in a motor; if you try to put gears or other "stuff" in there, it
could be adversely affected! Like, wear particles sticking to the teeth
of the gears, where they cause accellerated wear or drag.
Frank Schmitt wrote:
> I've always thought it would be neat to build an induction motor with
> two rotors and one stator. The one with more slip (in the motor, less
> slip at the tire) would get all the torque. I guess you'd optimize the
> vector control for whichever one is turning more slowly.
This has been done. As I recall, it didn't really make much difference
in the size or weight of the motor. The only real problem is that it
turned an ordinary mass-produced motor into an exotic special motor
(more cost for no particular advantage).
But, there is an even odder way to do this -- the twin rotor motor. This
is motor with two rotors and NO stator! The inside rotor directly drives
one axle, and the outside case rotates in the opposite direction, and
drives the opposite axle via a 1:1 planetary reversing gear! By doing
this, your single motor operates at an effective rpm double what it
would have been if used normally; thus it lets you build a wheel motor
that runs at twice the speed of the wheel.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Definition games.. :-) OK, I should say brushed motors (AC or DC)
> can't run as fast as brushless motors (AC or DC) because commutation/
> arcing at high speeds presents... challenges, as well as mechanical
> integrity of the commutators.
Not so much the commutator; they can be built arbitrarily strong.
Certainly strong enough so they are no longer the limiting factor.
However, such commutators cost more. Most motors nowdays use crude cast
commutators, where the bars are held in by little more than plastic,
phenolic, or glue.
The ultimate limit is the brush. The higher the rpm, the faster it has
to slide over the commutator or slip ring surface. That generates
friction, heat, and wear. At some point, you can no longer cool it, and
its life is too short to be useful.
> It is far more reliable to transfer energy (to the rotor) using
> magnetic field than mechenucal sliding contacts (brushes).
Well... "reliability" is not quite the word. Brushes are very
dependable, and there are lots of examples of them working for decades.
But, they have a wearout mechanism, and need periodic maintenance and
replacement.
Brushes make sense when you can predict how long it needs to work (how
many years, or how many miles), and when there will be routine
maintenance, and repairs. Properly used, brushes have no problems
lasting for the life of a car.
Solid state inverters make sense when the life is unknown, and you don't
plan to ever do any maintenance, and will throw it away when it breaks.
So, they fit in better with the modern "use and discard" mentality.
> Count amount of resistors, capacitors, ICs and heat sinks in both
> types - roughly the same.
Not normally. The usual PWM DC motor controller has just one big
transistor and one big diode (or perhaps many small ones in parallel).
The usual 3-phase AC motor controller has 6 transistors and 6 diodes
(again, sometimes using paralleled devices). Now, each of those
transistors and diodes is about half the power rating, so you basically
have 3 times the amount of high-power silicon in an AC controller.
> I think it is only because AC inverters *typically* do more
> sophisticated things than just PWM battery power to the motor.
Yes, quite true. DC controls tend to be simpler and cheaper. They could
build AC controls the same way, but they don't.
> I think industrial AC inverters made [by the] millions cost less
> than Zilla made in small quantities, are they?
Of course. This is a the main reason EV controllers are so expensive;
they are all essentially hand-made.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
