EV Digest 4117
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV digest 4116
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Honda EV using too many amps?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Battery Pack Advice
by "Richard R. Marcus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Constant rpm
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) No reverse
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) BLDC vs Induction
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Constant rpm
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV digest 4116- BLDC motors
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BLDC vs Induction
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) "on light"
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Calculator update OT: Conversion Musings
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BLDC vs Induction OT: Insight turbo
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: reversing DC motor
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 12V System Battery Info
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Pack Advice
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Regenerating a series wound motor
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction and hydraulics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Running Amps
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Running Amps
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Running Amps
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I just checked and the Records page seems alive and well.
Also, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by backwards. I'm guessing you mean
that the "A" voltage division should be 24 volts and below and "J" should be
241 volts and above.
With having "A" as being 241 and above we haven't left room for people
running 400 volt plus vehicles since they would be grouped with the 241 +
volts. Is that what you mean?
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> >This pushes the limits and the sport whenever existing records fall. It
> >makes the person that just lost their record try harder to reclaim it.
> >This is the competitive spirit we wish to capture.
>
> On that subject, the Records page of the NEDRA website has wandered off
> the Internet.
>
> David Thompson, oh and y'all set up the voltage classes backwards...
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I am digest mode, but two comments...
Keith-
I think people mean viscous torque (which I assume is eddy current
losses), not cogging torque when they speak of BLDC losses.
As for BLDC vs induction? (Rod Hower)
http://www.baldor.com/products/servomotors/n_series/perf_graph.asp?
catalognumber=BSM100N-4250AA
I don't see how a motor at 300VDC on that curve has broader speed&
torque than AC induction once you field weaken an induction machine, as
the curve extends well past the BLDC curve knee at 1800 RPM. Field
weakening BLDC is pretty inefficient and if you lose control of the
weakening you usually pop the controller from overvoltage.
Power per pound and a hollow rotor are two big advantages I can think
of. (Victor, etc)
Finally, is there a paper that talks about using the electric motor to
smooth out the 3 cylinder insight? I can't see Honda doing it AND
getting the mileage at the same time. I bet they did BLDC for packaging
and mass, not any electrical reason, as I can't see why you couldn't
fluctuate the torque in an induction machine fast enough to cancel
vibration, assuming that is what they really did in the Insight. I
don't have time tonight (or this week) to see what the sort of
frequency of vibration you would cancel on a 3 cylinder would be, but I
bet it is achievable with an induction machine (of which, half the
anatomy is shared with BLDC). I could be wrong, but I suspect this is
internet folklore.
Seth Allen
On Feb 22, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
EV Digest 4116
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Siemens motors
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: reversing DC motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: reversing DC motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: reversing DC motor
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 12 v system battery question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: another 12v solution
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: another 12v solution
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fwd: Re: 12 v system battery question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: reversing DC motor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: reversing DC motor
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: reversing DC motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Calculator update
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Honda EV using too many amps?
by Iron Mountain Films <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fwd: Re: 12 v system battery question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Calculator update
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<EV__digest_4116>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
1) 290 wh per mile is actually pretty good!
2) Lynn Adams (CO) has the other Civvy, not Lee Hart
(MN, I think). (;-p
3) I have confirmed 35 miles (partial charge, and
Lynn is the expert at getting a confirmed 44 miles. If
I recall, he is around 45-55 mph on his commute, not
65, though...
4) Remember, we're carrying 1270 pounds of lead,
though. (144V) More lead = more range.
5) Get on the EV Album!
6) Weights:
DX with air conditioning is 2220 lbs. Subtract 375
for engine block and the rest of unused parts. New
weight for my rig, w/o me, is 3300. This is actual,
not calculated.
Delighted to see you corresponding on the list! Most
times you'll find you can flag all, and delete the
batch, but on one of them, you'll want to uncheck so
that you can read a pearl of wisdom from one who has
"been there, done that".
Hope this helps. Say a prayer for dropping NiMH
prices, and LiPB prices, if range is critical. Best
to you, fellow EVCivvy pilot!
I run about 150 to 170 amps at 55 mph
> on the flat. Car was weighed before I bought it and
> I believe that figure is about 3100 lbs. I am using
> a Zivan NG 3 charger. I've checked the specific
> gravity of the batteries, all looks excellent.
> resting voltage 102.5 volts hours after charge. My
> range is about 25 miles max. around the 20 mile
> mark I have to watch for voltage sagging below 80
> volts. Do I have a problem with internal battery
> resistance or drive train dr!
> ag? How
> can I check these things? I tried Uve's calculator
> using the 88 civic dx vehicle, it says I should get
> like 60 or 70 miles range I must be doing something
> wrong there. Lee Hart's and Bob Bath's civics do 45+
> miles at 144 volts. I would be estatic with even 30
> or 40. Anybody have any ideas?
>
> Mike Malmberg
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am new to the EV world so forgive my ignorance. I
need to replace a battery pack and would like advice.
It is a Ford Escort body currently with 6 Trojan 5SHP
(72 volts). This is a commuter so I want to maximize
range (even at the expense of performance). I thought
about a dozen T-145s (are my calculations right that I
would expect about a 50 mile range)? Does someone
have a better battery suggestion? A modest
modification suggestion? Thanks!
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I don't know much about hydraulics, but I suspect rpm stability will be
terrible with a series motor. Speed would bog down under heavy load, and
you might overspeed something in no load. You could put in a speed control
feedback loop and controller, but that would be relatively complicated and
maybe more expensive than a new shunt motor. You could have a series motor
rewound as a shunt motor. A permanent magnet motor would also work. Or a
constant frequency inverter and an induction motor. All these solutions
would require some research to work out the details. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 10:11 AM
Subject: Constant rpm
Hi guys, Zamboni conversion fellow again, I am having a hard time locating a
20 hp Shunt wound motor with 2400 rpm. If I use a series wound with a
controller what kind of rpm stability will I achieve? The motor will be
running hydraulics only( Hydrostatic trans and pump for augars etc) I am
nervous that the motor will change it's rpm under different loads and
battery voltages.
All comments welcomed
Ellery
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--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if the no reverse condition can be cured by putting in
neutral bumping the "go" pedal and then slipping it into reverse. I
assume this would work with a clutched set-up but not sure about
clutchless set-ups.
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--- Begin Message ---
Help me here. What is a BLDC motor ? Is it a brushless dc motor?
Mike G.
Frank Schmitt wrote:
I think the Prius, Insight and Civic Hybrids use
Brushless DC motors (synchronous AC or permanent
magnet brushless). Since these motors are more
expensive to produce, why do all of the hybrids use
this type of motor?
BLDC motors generate a good deal more torque for a given size than a
reasonably-low-pole-count induction motor, and in the Toyota and Honda
hybrid configurations the electric motor(s) need to be on the same
page, torque/speed-wise, as an ICE (or have a lot of extra gearing
added).
The downside for a pure electric vehicle is that they are (for lack of
a better term) "self-excited," so that even when no power is applied
they produce some drag, both in the form of cogging torque and iron
(eddy current) losses. Also, I suspect it's tougher to build a BLDC
with as wide a speed range as an equivalent-power induction machine.
-Frank
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--- Begin Message ---
BLDC are also available in a high aspect ratio, ie 10" round and 2.2"
thick, For the insight this replaces the space normally for cylinder 4.
If I was a rich kid, what would be fun is to buy another insight unit
and slip it in, double the power unit and battery pack and wheeeee.
Insight Turbo!
If I was really rich I would buy 4 units and tie them all togather, then
find a beefy controller and a llarge li-ion pack. so it would be a 4
rotor instead of a 4 banger.
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been wondering about this: The Elec-Trak snowblower and tiller are
both powered by series wound motors, and both seem to not overspeed
without loads. Also the snowblower seems stable as a rock under load
until it's seriously bogged down.
It's possible they have compound-shunt windings in there somewhere, but
I'm not sure how they would be fed. Anyone have any thoughts on why GE
chose series wound for the big power devices (and used shunt wound on
the main tractor drive motors)?
Chris
Mark Thomasson wrote:
I don't know much about hydraulics, but I suspect rpm stability will be
terrible with a series motor. Speed would bog down under heavy load, and
you might overspeed something in no load. You could put in a speed control
feedback loop and controller, but that would be relatively complicated and
maybe more expensive than a new shunt motor. You could have a series motor
rewound as a shunt motor. A permanent magnet motor would also work. Or a
constant frequency inverter and an induction motor. All these solutions
would require some research to work out the details. Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this article,
http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cpr/pres/107190_.pdf
BLDC is better than AC induction if the cost of the
motor is competetive. I think this is feasable in the
long run.
It certainly appears to be competitive in the Toyota
and Honda Hybrids.
Rod
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am digest mode, but two comments...
>
> Keith-
> I think people mean viscous torque (which I assume
> is eddy current
> losses), not cogging torque when they speak of BLDC
> losses.
>
> As for BLDC vs induction? (Rod Hower)
>
>
http://www.baldor.com/products/servomotors/n_series/perf_graph.asp?
>
> catalognumber=BSM100N-4250AA
>
> I don't see how a motor at 300VDC on that curve has
> broader speed&
> torque than AC induction once you field weaken an
> induction machine, as
> the curve extends well past the BLDC curve knee at
> 1800 RPM. Field
> weakening BLDC is pretty inefficient and if you lose
> control of the
> weakening you usually pop the controller from
> overvoltage.
>
> Power per pound and a hollow rotor are two big
> advantages I can think
> of. (Victor, etc)
>
> Finally, is there a paper that talks about using the
> electric motor to
> smooth out the 3 cylinder insight? I can't see Honda
> doing it AND
> getting the mileage at the same time. I bet they did
> BLDC for packaging
> and mass, not any electrical reason, as I can't see
> why you couldn't
> fluctuate the torque in an induction machine fast
> enough to cancel
> vibration, assuming that is what they really did in
> the Insight. I
> don't have time tonight (or this week) to see what
> the sort of
> frequency of vibration you would cancel on a 3
> cylinder would be, but I
> bet it is achievable with an induction machine (of
> which, half the
> anatomy is shared with BLDC). I could be wrong, but
> I suspect this is
> internet folklore.
>
> Seth Allen
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 22, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List wrote:
>
> >
> > EV Digest 4116
> >
> > Topics covered in this issue include:
> >
> > 1) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> > by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 2) Re: Siemens motors
> > by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 3) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 4) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 5) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 6) Re: 12 v system battery question
> > by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 7) Re: another 12v solution
> > by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 8) Re: another 12v solution
> > by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 9) Re: Fwd: Re: 12 v system battery question
> > by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 10) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> > by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 11) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 12) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 13) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
> > by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 14) Re: reversing DC motor
> > by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 15) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
> > by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 16) Re: EV Calculator update
> > by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 17) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
> > by "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 18) Honda EV using too many amps?
> > by Iron Mountain Films
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 19) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
> > by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 20) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> > by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 21) Re: Fwd: Re: 12 v system battery question
> > by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 22) Re: EV Calculator update
> > by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > <EV__digest_4116>
>
>
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I like it !!! But why cant we use the flywheel that is already there and
install a large stator?
I checked Google and now I understand what a bldc motor is. We use them
for power steering motors on our newer fork lifts.
Thanks
Mike G.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
BLDC are also available in a high aspect ratio, ie 10" round and 2.2"
thick, For the insight this replaces the space normally for cylinder 4.
If I was a rich kid, what would be fun is to buy another insight unit
and slip it in, double the power unit and battery pack and wheeeee.
Insight Turbo!
If I was really rich I would buy 4 units and tie them all togather,
then find a beefy controller and a llarge li-ion pack. so it would be
a 4 rotor instead of a 4 banger.
--- End Message ---
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I just found an interesting tidbit.
Doorbell buttons light up dimmly on 12vdc
To make a short story long, I broke the bracket on the front of the
motor that holds everthing including the front motor mount on my grand
am(don't ask) and can't fix it right now so I resurected my ole
mitsubishi PU, It was all race prep and is not very comfy. Lowering the
seat and putting in a roll cage put the 15" steering wheel to close and
I have gained weight and it was hitting my gut! LOL
I dug out an old 13"steering wheel my neighbor gave me and installed
that but I needed a horn button (for traffic education in Fresno
California) They wanted $20 for the button at Kragen and it had a giant
chevy logo on it.(not) The steering wheel had a small hole that a door
bell button from orchard supply fit in. I didn't even notice it was
"lighted" when I bought it. Since my horn is tied to the ignition, I now
have a lighted indicator of when the ignition is on. (not that it needs
it, it sets off all car alarms for a block when I start it up, slated
for conversion summer 2006 ) but I like the idea for my 300 zx, A
lighted horn button to indicate "power on".
What do you guys do to remind yourself your car is "on"
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi yall,
Thanks John for yet another great post. I'm very glad I went with the
twin 55 amp IOTA power supplies. The only thing I'm not sure I'm happy
with is that two relays (the P&B ~15A ones) separate the power supplies
from the traction pack when the vehicle is off. I did this because I
was under the impression from reading the PFC charger manual that there
shouldn't be any draw from the traction pack while charging. Is this
correct Rich?
Because of this, my 12V battery has been found dead a few times. And
since those relays I mentioned are fired into action from the 12V
system, if the 12V system is down, the relays don't go. It's a nasty
cycle...overcome with a little bypass wire that just has to be touched
from the 144V fuse block to the power supplies. I think my 12V battery
is a piece of junk. I got the cheap one from Autozone thinking I didn't
need a good one. Boy, was that stupid!
One other thing - when I pull 1000 amps from my Orbitals on a EV
grinning stoplight takeoff, and the pack dips down in the 80V range, the
12V output drops (which makes sense since the power supplies are only
being fed with 80V instead of 144V - I'm guessing they just turn off).
So here's what I'm wondering - could I find some bulky capacitors to
help out either with the 144V side, or the 12V side? I'm guessing I'll
have better luck with 12V caps. Can someone recommend a specific part
that will help keep the 12V system from dimming during those
accelerations? Maybe a better battery would solve the problem? Whatever
the case, it will have to be a fairly inexpensive solution as the EV
funds have dried up :)
I imagine some fat caps on the 144V side would help make a faster speed
run since the voltage wouldn't drop as fast. That will have to be a
later modification.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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--- Begin Message ---
Re: EV Calculator update OT: Conversion Musings
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
David Dymaxion worte:
>Are you sure the wind is not a tailwind? If you put
>in 0 wind do the
>numbers get better or worse?
With 0 wind speed hitting the car head on, the results
improve some. If I remember correctly, I think range to 100%
improved by about 15 miles with 0 wind speed set on the
'efficient' conversion concept. Not 100% sure on that, as I
wasn't interested much in that figure.
>What is the "relative wind factor?" Is that for
>crosswinds?
Yes. Counts relative wind velocity from drag pushing against
all other directions of the vehicle. More aerodynamic
designs are generally less affected by it, according to
Brandt's book. 1.4 Cw might be suitable for a car with a .33
coefficient drag, 1.2 for a .25 coefficient drag, and 1.6
for a .55 coefficient drag.
>Here is a real-life data point for you: Silent
>Thunder went 133 mph
>on the Salt Flats. I believe it was lowered, had
>smooth hubcaps, and
>an air dam in front, and was lightened a bit. It was
>a Ford Taurus
>with 28 Optima Yellow Tops and 4 Advanced DC motors.
I read of it. Isn't that car and record over 10 years old?
I'm willing to bet if Otmar used his highest gear, he could
hit over 130, no problem. I remember his top speed estimate
for his 914 being 140 MPH, and it's not as aerodynamic as my
car will end up. His uses twin 8's though.
>Here is a 2nd data point: The GM Impact did 184 mph.
184 MPH on 135 horsepower. I will be making 140-145
horsepower at the flywheel for sure assuming 55% motor
efficiency at 1,000 motor amps. 'Maybe' 200+ horsepower. All
depends on how the numbers are manipulated, accounting for
motor modifications and varying efficiency levels. I may
have to go with a twin-motor setup, thus I might worry about
efficiency losses associated with that(Otmar's car is a good
example of that! Wayland's Zombie seems to do ok though,
with 15 mile range @ 80 MPH on only 20 Orbitals, or 6kWh?
Good efficiency. Otmar’s motor belts and 930 turbo tranny
must be eating amps.). Calculations are never certain
though. Until I actually get this car going as an EV, I'm
pretty much talking out my ass since it's all estimates and
theory, and not the real McCoy. Not factored in is human
error. Since this is a first conversion(and restoration),
and I've never done a major project like this before, I
expect to screw something up that will cost money and set it
back a few months(Or a year). I may very well start with a
smaller battery pack(Like 204V) to get a feel for it,
although the idea of stuffing 300V or more of Optimas in a
small car like this is very appealing. It may very well mean
range + performance. The range I’d like to have for show.
The performance though, is wanted to a reasonable degree,
but I’m not looking to build a ¼ mile record breaker. I
just want enough performance to scare people.
It's evil fun as the gas car it currently is. That engine
sounds like something from a 50s or 60s Ferrari or Maserati,
and I will miss that hell-raising sound. It's also kind of
like the sound a Harley Davidson makes. LOUD! Creeping up
behind unsuspecting SUVs and minivans that can't see it
since it's so low, then flooring it to 100+ while passing
them and letting that thing sing like a banshee sounds like
great fun to me(Although a great way to get killed). But
turning it into an EV ends that noise. Maybe it will make a
high-pitched whine as an EV like Silver Bullet does; that
would compensate nicely, although I wouldn't want no huge
efficiency losses from it. That would be hilarious,
especially racing people at the track with a noise like that
and beating $35,000 sportscars like TTs and 350Zs, ricers,
and the occasional musclecar. "SCREEEEEEEEEEECH!" *click*
"SCREEEEEECH!" 2nd and 4thand the race would be over
somewhere around 14 seconds. It would perhaps be able to be
driven to a track, raced all day, and driven home on one
charge under the condition that simulation is any bit
accurate. Even more intriguing is the prospect of doing
circuit-track racing. With range like that, it would be able
to race almost any type of race, barring endurance races. A
Li Ion upgrade would be needed for those.
Then later on is the idea of changing the tranny and
differential out and upgrading from a Zilla 1k to a Zilla
2k. Won't be done at first though, too expensive and a
differential change would require a full overhaul of the
rotoflex suspension, adding to the cost way too much. Not to
mention the time involved. I'm a college Sophomore, and
college is only going to eat away more of my time as I
advance.
"Green Meanie", "Greenpeace" or "The Green-Eyed Monster". I
cannot decide what to name what will be the terror of St.
Louis. Although before I name it any of those, I have to get
rid of the temporary yellow paint job that was tacked on to
protect it from rust and paint it Jaguar D-Type style BRG.
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Jeff Shanab wrote:
>If I was a rich kid, what would be fun is to buy
>another insight unit
>and slip it in, double the power unit and battery
>pack and wheeeee.
>Insight Turbo!
That reminds me.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-hybrid/message/12630
Insight Turbo!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi-
When I converter the "Ledgend Car", I used the reversing switch made for Golf
Cart. I replaced the stock buss bars with thicker, wider ones, just rember not
to shift under load.
Father Time
Lee Hart wrote:
> Brian Staffanson wrote:
> >
> > I have a Curtis 1231. It is going in a 1974 VW bug. Would these work for
> > my application? This seems to be an easier solution than taking it to the
> > local transmission shop to look at and fix.
> >
> > Thanks everyone for the information. Is there any other suggestions to
> > follow? Do I keep the contactors right by the motor? And other questions
> > like this.
>
> Yes, a reversing contactor and a Curtis 1231 will be just fine. You will
> see the circuit for wiring it in the Curtis manual.
>
> An advantage to this setup is that you can hook up the plug braking
> option if desired; this provides a small amount of "engine braking".
> Beware, though! Plug braking is intended for only very light use, not
> extended long downhill runs.
>
> On wiring; the motor wiring is carrying high currents, so you generally
> want to keep it as short as practical. This means mounting the reversing
> contactors close to the motor.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> John Wayland wrote:
> It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a
> small stout AGM type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works
> better than the car's original system,
I guess the success of this system really depends on how powerful the
DC/DC converter is?
My current 12 volt system setup is a DCP DC/DC converter and a Hawker
Odyssey PC625 battery. I still have a lot of voltage fluctuations in the
system (dimming lights, etc..) using this setup. I know that my MR2
power steering pump is the main cause, as I have it connected directly
to 12 volts anytime my Jeep is on and it pulls a lot of power.
It seems that the 30-amp output of the DC/DC isn't enough when I'm using
this pump and other things (vacuum pump, headlights, wipers, etc) or
when I'm making tight turns, as the voltage sags down in the 12 volt
range (even though the DC/DC "ignition on" voltage is set to the highest
setting).
I'm (slowly) building a PWM circuit for the P/S pump, so hopefully that
will take some load off the 12 volt system (as I'll be able to slow or
stop the pump when not turning).
At least things have improved some since I ditched the flooded U1
battery I had and got the Hawker. Though, the amount of voltage sag is
still borderline unacceptable...
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 2005-02-22 at 07:55, John Wayland wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> John O'Connor wrote:
>
> > For those that use a DC/DC converter along with a 12 volt battery in
> > their conversions, what battery do you use. In particular I am wonder
> > how heavy of a battery people use.
>
> I understand that John was really only looking to get a weight figure here,
> but since so
> many others have replied and since it's one of those 'EV subjects' I take
> seriously, I'd
> like to speak up on this. Because of the way it impacts the ease of
> operation, as well as the
> way other non-EVers perceive our on-road EV conversions, the 12V system needs
> to be done right.
>
> Like others who have replied, over my 2.5 decades of EVness, I've used many
> types of 12V
> system setups. I like to think I get better at things as time goes on, and
> feel I have
> arrived at the best method of doing the 12V system in a conversion type EV.
> The best
> system is one that is affordable, one that takes up the least amount of
> space, one that
> gets rid of mechanical pieces, one that is reliable, one that is efficient,
> one that
> delivers solid performance, and in the end, one that puts the EV a notch
> above the gas car
> with a 12V system that doesn't vary in output with motor rpm, as does the gas
> car whose
> lights dim and wipers slow down at every stop light, then brighten back up
> once the car is
> moving again. Anytime you can get your EV to do something better than the gas
> car, why not
> take advantage of it?
>
> The worse type, in my opinion, is a large un-assisted 12V battery thrown
> under the hood,
> like a deep cycle RV or marine style 52 lb. 100+ ahr type. Such a battery
> takes up space
> that could be better utilized for another traction battery, adds 52 lbs.
> unnecessarily,
> and is inferior to what the car's 12V system originally had when powered by a
> belt driven
> alternator that put things at 14.2V or so. With just the big battery, lights
> are dim,
> wipers are slow, HVAC blower runs slows, rear window defrosters run tepid,
> etc., as the
> battery sags down in voltage with the addition of each load, and, as time
> goes on as you
> drive while the battery is constantly being discharged....12.5V, 12.4V,
> 12.3V....11.8V,
> 11.7V, etc. Such a setup makes for a miserable EV, as from the beginning of
> your trip, the
> system just keeps getting worse and worse with constantly declining
> performance. This type
> of 12V system makes your EV's performance inferior to the gas car...not good,
> and not
> pleasant for the recipient of such a system. Have I ever used this system? Of
> course. I
> think we've all done the quick and dirty deed of tossing in a spare 12V
> battery to get the
> EV on the road.
>
> You could use an alternator driven off the drive motor via a belt. This works
> 'OK' when
> used in conjunction with a 12V battery and 'almost' mimics the original gas
> version's
> system. The downsides are big, though. I say 'almost', because the gas car's
> engine stays
> at an idle when the car is not in motion, and though rpm is way slower at
> idle, there is
> still enough to keep the alternator spinning and the 12V battery in the 13+
> volt range,
> where the EV drive motor version of things comes to a complete stop (or at
> least it
> should) when the car is not in motion, thus no spinning alternator, thus a
> 12V battery now
> sagging down from 14+ volts to 12-something as lights noticeably dim....not
> cool. This
> setup takes up valuable space under the hood, space that is batter utilized
> for traction
> batteries. This setup also introduces mechanical problems such as having the
> alternator
> belt too tight, adding wear to the drive motor bearings, or, having the belt
> too loose,
> creating slippage that costs in efficiency and worn alternator belts. Then,
> there's the
> issue of having the belt break. This setup also adds too much weight. The
> alternator
> weighs around 15 lbs., it's needed bracketry, drive pulley, and belt at
> another 5 lbs.,
> then you still need a 12V battery, one big enough to keep it's voltage high
> under the
> unassisted stopped alternator loads, so there's another 30-40 lbs...in total,
> about 50-60
> lbs. of 'stuff', all to have a 12V system that is still inferior to the gas
> car's
> system....again, not cool, and certainly not the most efficient setup,
> either. Yes, you
> could keep the electric drive motor spinning at stop, but that's a terrible
> idea.
>
> The best solution is a reliable DC-DC converter with a small and light 12V
> backup battery.
> A 30 amp Todd DC-DC weighs just 5 lbs., and a powerful Hawker 13 ahr Genesis
> battery
> weighs 10.5 lbs., so such a combo only weighs 16 lbs.! At about 90%
> efficient, the DC-DC
> takes the least amount of traction allocated power, too. With its dual output
> mode, you
> can set the DC-DC to float the 12V battery at just above 13V when the car is
> not being
> run, and have it kick up to 14+ volts when the car is 'on'. This system gives
> the same
> 14+ volt performance as a gas car's alternator-charged system, but without
> any of the
> problems such as mechanical parts, alternator whine, the extra weight and
> space used, and most
> importantly, without dimming lights when the car is not in
> motion....everything stays
> crisp and bright, all the time.
>
> Blue Meanie's primary system (the car has twin DC-DC converters, with a rear
> one that
> kicks on to give the competition grade sound system's amplifiers extra power
> as they
> charge the trunk mounted capacitor bank) uses a Todd PC40 DC-DC that is set
> up for dual
> mode output, with a baby Optima yellow top, a rare, never offered to the
> public, hand
> assembled miniature version of the Optima Yellow Top. It's a cool looking 15
> lb. battery
> that is also a deep cycle type. It's really too bad they never put this
> battery into
> production. The original one I used in this car, finally gave up after 7
> l-o-n-g years of
> service in this application. I have another one back in the car, the battery
> that served
> as White Zombie's 12V supply. It is now in its 8th year of service. I also
> have another
> baby YT, also on its 8th year, installed in my Honda Insight as the
> under-hood 12V
> battery....amazing life from these batteries! What happened to Blue Meanie's
> original baby
> YT? When left for long periods un-driven, an electric car with the described
> DC-DC with
> backup battery in the dual mode (13+V-14+V) will ever slightly, over-charge
> the 12V
> battery, even if it's at a 13.1V float. Over the years, the little 12V
> battery was
> subjected to positive plate erosion from a constant low level over-charge,
> but note, it
> took 7 years to finally do the deed.
>
> Why float the 12V battery at all? If you have a conversion based on a
> pre-70's type car,
> there is little need to do so, unless you have an Emeter or other devices
> that require
> small amounts of juice to run in sleep or standby modes. Such modes, though
> only sipping
> 20-40 milliamps, can eventually pull down a small 7ahr-15 ahr 12V battery to
> a full
> discharge. In Blue Meanie's case, there's twin Emeters to feed in sleep mode,
> and a stereo
> head unit and four amplifiers' need for memory power. A reliability
> note...the Todd PC40
> has never failed. The stereo-specific compact and fan cooled 35 amp DC-DC,
> also made by
> Todd, has never failed.
>
> As stated, whenever possible, try to flaunt and take advantage of EV systems
> that make
> your EV conversion superior to a gas car. If doing up a heating system, why
> use a warmed
> liquid type that needs a warm up period (like a gas car) before making good
> heat, when you
> can use instant-on electric element or ceramic cores? Why belt drive off the
> EV traction
> motor for AC, when you can have a dedicated electric motor for the AC
> compressor? In the
> case of 12V system power, why settle for an unassisted 12V battery or a
> traction motor
> driven alternator, when you can have a crisp 14+ volts all the time and never
> have to put
> up with a varying 12V system like the gas car folks do?
>
> It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a small
> stout AGM
> type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works better than the car's
> original system,
> it's more efficient, it's reliable, and it takes up little under-hood space.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One way to look at it, is about 700 pounds of lead for
a 20 mile range or so; about a gallon of gas.
(;-p
--- "Richard R. Marcus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I am new to the EV world so forgive my ignorance. I
> need to replace a battery pack and would like
> advice.
> It is a Ford Escort body currently with 6 Trojan
> 5SHP
> (72 volts). This is a commuter so I want to
> maximize
> range (even at the expense of performance). I
> thought
> about a dozen T-145s (are my calculations right that
> I
> would expect about a 50 mile range)? Does someone
> have a better battery suggestion? A modest
> modification suggestion? Thanks!
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Sirs
I have a converted Diahatsu Charade that I bought from the CSIRO here in
Melbourne Australia. It has a 4001A 9" motor and DCP1200 controller on
144V 99Ahr Panasonic batteries. I would like to get engine braking
automatically. Can the controller be arranged to supply the field only
and connect the armature direct to the batteries during braking? Has
anybody tried this? My own thoughts are that there should be no special
skills reqd to drive the car. A ICE driver should be able to do so.
Regards
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a BLDC as powerful as an 8" ADC at 96v? The closest I've found is the
D&D Motor that is equivalent to a 6.7" but it is marketed for golf carts and I
didn't see any technical information on their website. This all goes back to my
idea for hybridizing my pick-up. How stout are air conditioner clutches like
one lister was talking about? Strong enough to stand up to the weight of a
small pick-up?
Also, at the risk of being off-topic, does anyone know of a source for
reversible hydraulic motor/pumps like the one used by Permo Drive
(www.permo-drive.com) to make big rigs hydraulic hybrids? Their units, even if
available to the public, would be way too big for a Nissan pickup. I was
googling and came across the Permo website and it got me thinking that maybe a
hydraulic launch assist might be cheaper and lighter than a lead acid, dc motor
setup. Any ideas? Thanks.
John
__________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With regard to speed v/s Amps for a smallish veh such as a Charade could
anyone advise likely current needed for traction at various speeds up to
60mph
Regards
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there David,
> With regard to speed v/s Amps for a smallish veh such as a Charade could
> anyone advise likely current needed for traction at various speeds up to
> 60mph
I'm in Sydney, also converting a Charade!
I've built up an Excel spreadsheet that attempts to compute these sort of
things. Its, well, a little organic in nature, and entirely unvalidated, but I
could send it over to you if you like.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Claudio
I would like to see your spread sheet. The battery voltage is 144V. I
assume at least 10% droop under loads such as 50A. I can give you the
full specs on the Elec Charade if you wish. I was first converted by
Huntingdones but has had a few extra mods to satisfy a speed demon at
CSIRO. I will eventually develop a ICE to provide energy for trips
outside its range. That is why I wanted to know traction Amps so that
ICE sizes can be calculated.
Regards
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2005 5:57 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Running Amps
Hi there David,
> With regard to speed v/s Amps for a smallish veh such as a Charade
could
> anyone advise likely current needed for traction at various speeds up
to
> 60mph
I'm in Sydney, also converting a Charade!
I've built up an Excel spreadsheet that attempts to compute these sort
of things. Its, well, a little organic in nature, and entirely
unvalidated, but I could send it over to you if you like.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
