EV Digest 4122
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 11 K miles on NiCads
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 2 motor S 10
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 11 K miles on NiCads
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) simple fuse indicator
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 600 Volt limit?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Multiple Breakers
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 600 Volt limit?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) PFC charger capabilities -was- 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: PFC charger capabilities -was- 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 600 Volt limit?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 600 Volt limit?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Multiple Breakers
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) max. wet cell temperatures.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: max. wet cell temperatures.
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I can see where the Clouds( Dave and Steve) want the wattage limits.
Steve is into Electrathons, and Dave has more than a few range Racing
awards. Given these guide lines.... The Clouds are as competitive as Dennis
Berube is in all out Ev dragster motors.
Actually, the last time I heard, Steve Cloud was pushing for
battery weight divisions.
This seemed completely illogical to me. I talked with Dave about
it a couple of times. I gave him a few examples to show why it doesn't make
sense. He then agreed with me. Steve Cloud and I haven't talked about it
person-to-person yet. He seems to still be pushing for battery weight
classes. I guess he hasn't talked with Dave about it yet. :^)
I have a real problem in changing rules to favor any one racer, and his
skill sets.
One of the goals of NEDRA is to promote advances in EV technology.
I'm not sure if wattage divisions would advance EV technology as well as
voltage divisions. Perhaps it would, but I have no clue on how you would
inspect such a thing simply and fairly. I also can't figure out how you
could easily prevent unethical racers folks from cheating.
You keep writing that "things need to change" but you haven't
offered up any specifics and solutions. You need to spend the time to come
up with a working rule set and a logical, well-written argument showing
step-by-step why your rules would be better. You can't just wave your hands
in the air and talk in generalities.
You will find it is not at all easy to write rules that work and
are reasonably fair.
Chip and others... when the 240 and up class was introduced there were about
3 racers up that high. I can clearly see a 240 to 360 and now a 360 and up
class. Since we don't have anyone runing above 360 right now...
Actually, I am. I think Dennis may be as well.
This
effectivley creates a OPEN voltage class. I would strongly suggest that
anyone running in the 360+ class have all thier Safety equipment papers in
order! Because we should do a senior Nedra Tech inspection on them before
the NHRA guys are even called over to look. AKA we should police our own
before NHRA track guy gets involved.
I've already been juiced with 360 and it wasn't that bad. :^)
I think the real turning point for voltage would be something near
600 volts. This is where the National Electrical Code draws the line in the
sand and requires a different set of wiring rules. I think they have it
pretty much under control in terms of electrical safety, so I tend to go
with their judgement on this.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:28 PM 2/23/2005, you wrote:
How about classes based on the weight of the motor and controller? Do
anything you want for a motor and controller and their cooling systems are
less than 100 lbs, 200 lbs, 300 lbs, etc.
I would think that a fun class might be based on what is called in
horse racing a "claiming" race. In horse racing, there is a type of race in
which all of the horses are automatically up for sale at a "claiming
price", typically $2,000. If you enter, you must be willing to sell your
horse for $2000.
If you have a REALLY fast horse, it is likely to be worth a lot of
money. if you were to enter such a horse in a claiming race, you would win,
but someone is likely to buy it for $2,000.
I would think that it would be very interesting to have some sort
of claiming race for EVs. Perhaps just the battery pack (and/or some other
components of the drive system) could be "claimed." Folks would figure out
a cheap way to make an EV go fast, that is for sure.
Just a thought.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I noticed that I have about 11,000 miles on the SAFT 100 MRE flooded
NiCads. The Emeter says that they have 339 cycles. This is about right
because my one-way commute is 28 miles and I take the car to lunch every
day in the middle of the charge.
They show no signs of wear yet. They have exactly the same voltage and
capacity as the day I put them in.
I accidentally crammed 120 a-hrs of overcharge into them once. They did
not seem to mind. We shall see how much this took off their lifespan.
I still am having problems with minor leaks in the cooling system. It will
be fine for a couple of weeks and then it will start to drip somewhere. I
guess all I can do is fix the leaks as they appear.
It is very nice to have full capacity in the winter. Running the heater
without a care makes the car much more pleasant to drive in the winter.
>>> Ecomonics <<<
I don't know how fair a comparison it is, but if I were driving my van, I
would have spent about $1500 on gasoline, and $100 on oil changes. Figure
that the $4,000 engine will last 150k miles, so would have used up $300 of
it. With the Wabbit, I spent about $100 on electricity, since I charge for
free at work.
I figure that the NiCads would have to last 61k miles for me to save money
over driving my van. Since they are rated at 3,000 cycles at 100%
discharge, (and I am only cycling them to about 60% on average,) I have a
very good chance of making 100k miles.
We shall see.....
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James, try http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html
Also, where are you getting the http://www.nedra.com/records.html link from?
Is it from a link within the NEDRA site. I'd like to know so I can correct
it since the page should be going to "record_holders.html"
Chip
On 2/23/05 10:18 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
> From: James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:55:11 -0500
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
>
>> I just checked and the Records page seems alive and well.
>
> It doesn't seem to like me:
> http://www.nedra.com/records.html
> "The requested URL /records.html was not found on this server"
>
>> Also, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by backwards. I'm guessing you
>> mean that the "A" voltage division should be 24 volts and below and "J"
>> should be 241 volts and above.
>
> Exactly. A more flexible solution would have been to simply use the
> maximum voltage as a subclass indicator (SC-120, SC-240, etc.), which
> would allow the creation and dissolution of subclasses without leaving
> gaps or having to invent new letters of the alphabet.
>
> David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Donald Lives not to far form me and is selling his boat , and taking up
Electric cars as his new hobbie. :-) . He came by and we drove around in my
EV's and talked about a project he had in mind. I often forward EVDL post
to people I think are intrested but of some reason don't want to get on
the list yet . I have no real first hand info on making very fast EV's .
Donald was asking me about using 2 9"s instead of 2 8" , . He wrote Otmar ,
who took the time to write him some good info which might help others also .
.
hello otmar. my name is don. i was hopeing you would give
me >a little advice. i read about the white zombie
and would like to build a electric go fast. i recently
bought a 97 s10 pickup and removed entire drivetrain.
aquired a ford rearend 8.8 ring gear 3.73 ratio with drive
shaft. would like zero to 60 as fast as i could possibly
afford.will build piece bypiece as funds permit. is 0 to 60
in under 4 seconds possible? i met with steve clunn at
grassrootsev.com and he only 8 inch motors. i was thinking
9 >inch motors would be quicker?? i will be driving 5
miles to work 5 days. what would be best ??? 2 9inch motors
, >zilla 2k 348 volt ,28 0ptimas 336 volt.
from what i have read this seems good to me. please help me
with this big important decission. s10 weight 3200
pounds. steve sugested 8 inch motors and z2k 300 volt.
please let me know what you think. netgain motors?
thank you
donald davin
Hi Donald,
Hitting 4 seconds 0-60 is hard, and you are starting with a
tank which makes it harder. Is the 3200 lbs as a gas car?
Before batteries? Do you plan to replace the body with a
fiberglass one? There is much math you'll need to do to try
to figure your end weight and then try to guess performance
by comparing to others.
My 914 does 0-60 in 5 seconds and weighs 3000 lbs converted.
It runs 240V of Orbitals.
If you are planning on driving single ratio, then you might
need the 9" motors if the car is heavy. This is in order
for them to survive, but the 8" motors are slightly more
efficient and weigh less. Usually 8s are better. Add a fan
if it need more power rating. You get the same peak HP out
of a 8 as a 9. I suggest keeping the transmission so you
can shift gears and keep the motors cool when cruising.
You didn't mention range. If cost is less of an issue you
can use Hawkers to get more power out of lighter batteries.
I have not used Netgain motors myself so I don't know much
about them. John Wayland seems happy with them in White
Zombie.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cafe Electric llc.
586 College ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306
(866) 860-6608 Fax and voice mail, 24 hours.
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
Thanks Otmar for your letter to Donald , I'm seeing more and more people
intrested in building fast EV's here in florida . You suggest keeping the
transmission but I'm wondering if a s 10 tranny could handle two motor 2k
power , I'd think the stock clutch would slip also . He could use a tranny
form somthing else. But then there would be the adaptor plate , along with
getting a clutch that will handle the torque ( these are the things we're
trying to get away form by using the 2 motor s/p set up) . Your thinking a
tranny becuse the 3.73 isn't low enough ? Somebody else who contacted me is
thinking about the net gain 11" which can come with a spline shaft that will
fit a Linco or lesco ( sorry , don't know the spelling ) racing
trannsmision . I'm wondering if this might not be better ( it will be more
money ) . I'll forward any post on ,
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good to hear they are still kicking.
11K miles that's over 1/6 of the way to pay off. Not bad!
3 and 4 10 mile cycles a day..gets old... fast.
Goldie's Staked out on the Dyno Like a frog, so I am not getting many miles
on her even though it's clear sunny and warm here in Seattle...
I am going to attempt to fire off the Fiero... and get the old lead into
that sled, and the new Orbs into Goldie...
Way too many semi Dead AGMS of all sorts littering the place.
Joe has my pack of Saft 188s in the Golf cart... They made nameplate
amphours... after 3 years in the Black berries out back, after a years
sitting on a pallet. The story is they are a Decade old this year.
Paul Wallace has most of them.
Amazing....little beasts!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:18 PM
Subject: 11 K miles on NiCads
> Well, I noticed that I have about 11,000 miles on the SAFT 100 MRE flooded
> NiCads. The Emeter says that they have 339 cycles. This is about right
> because my one-way commute is 28 miles and I take the car to lunch every
> day in the middle of the charge.
>
> They show no signs of wear yet. They have exactly the same voltage and
> capacity as the day I put them in.
>
> I accidentally crammed 120 a-hrs of overcharge into them once. They did
> not seem to mind. We shall see how much this took off their lifespan.
>
> I still am having problems with minor leaks in the cooling system. It will
> be fine for a couple of weeks and then it will start to drip somewhere. I
> guess all I can do is fix the leaks as they appear.
>
> It is very nice to have full capacity in the winter. Running the heater
> without a care makes the car much more pleasant to drive in the winter.
>
> >>> Ecomonics <<<
>
> I don't know how fair a comparison it is, but if I were driving my van, I
> would have spent about $1500 on gasoline, and $100 on oil changes. Figure
> that the $4,000 engine will last 150k miles, so would have used up $300 of
> it. With the Wabbit, I spent about $100 on electricity, since I charge for
> free at work.
>
> I figure that the NiCads would have to last 61k miles for me to save money
> over driving my van. Since they are rated at 3,000 cycles at 100%
> discharge, (and I am only cycling them to about 60% on average,) I have a
> very good chance of making 100k miles.
>
> We shall see.....
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On some old machines, a neon bulb was placed accross the fuses, when the
fuse blew the potential accros it rose and lit the neon bulb.
A newer machine has a resistor and an LED, the neon would draw less
current I think.
This may be a nice addition and doesn't consume power unless there is a
problem Not that 42 LED's is that much, < 10W
PS only works if there is 1 fuse in each circuit or only one blows :-)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just curious, why is 360 Volts the present voltage limit for dc
systems. (I initially typed "current voltage limit" and confused myself
LOL)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If, with two parallel strings of batteries, you want the ability to turn off
either one separately, or both together via a second breaker that also
functions as an emergency shutoff, would the following setup work?
+-------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+
| Bat. Str. A |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===O| 400A Breaker |O==> 1231C
+-------------+ +--------------+ |+--------------+
|
+-------------+ +--------------+ |
| Bat. Str. B |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===+
+-------------+ +--------------+
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
360 volts is the current limit of specially prepared Zillas. No one in EV
racing history has built a more powerful DC motor controller than Otmar.
www.cafeelectric.com
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: 600 Volt limit?
Just curious, why is 360 Volts the present voltage limit for dc systems.
(I initially typed "current voltage limit" and confused myself LOL)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> was under the impression from reading the PFC charger manual that there
> shouldn't be any draw from the traction pack while charging. Is this
> correct Rich?
NOT true at all!!
I have been using Goldie as the drive for the Dyno the last couple of
weeks.
I have the PFC30 supplied from a Iso transformer, and the Raptor 1200
drives
the motor on the Dyno, NOT the drive motor in Goldie.. and I have the
charger on all the time while I am sucking a few Hundred motor amps at will
from the Pack. The charge keeps up, when I am doing signal conditioning
designs between pulls.
So... don't worry about small loads or even monster loads while the charger
is on. The charger will fingure it out, and keep on stuffing what it can
into the pack.
This is great to know Rich.
I get inquiries all the time from folks who want to make a hybrid drive
system and need a good/reliable genset/charger setup.
I know that Sheer used 2 PFC-20s to charge his pack from a genset while
driving.
I didn't recall you giving him any kind of warnings except to provide
sufficient cooling input. (which he could have done better, it was a hot day
:-)
But... I was unsure as to whether this type of use was well within the
design parameters of your chargers.
So... you are saying that the PFC chargers can be considered to be a
reliable device for use under dynamic charging/discharging conditions?
Like a homebrew hybrid?
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This hybrid operation has been an intended application from day one. The non
buck enhanced chargers will even run from a low rate pack to charge a high
rate pack. The buck enhanced models need the input current sensor changed to
allow control of a DC input.
The only thing in this application that can kill the charger is an
overvoltage surge from the genset. This can happen on poorly regulated
alternators. The logic power supply can only take a 400 volt peak surge
before it blows its input capacitor. This can be avoided by running the
logic supply from a 120 volt source (isolation not required) or from a step
down transformer that can be installed inside a PFC-50. I'm not sure we can
find an appropriate size transformer to fit the available space inside a
PFC-20 or PFC-30.
Call Rich. He should be able to do the research and get back to you within a
few days.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:46 PM
Subject: PFC charger capabilities -was- 12V battery stuff - capacitors
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > > was under the impression from reading the PFC charger manual that
there
> > > shouldn't be any draw from the traction pack while charging. Is this
> > > correct Rich?
> >NOT true at all!!
> >I have been using Goldie as the drive for the Dyno the last couple of
> >weeks.
> >I have the PFC30 supplied from a Iso transformer, and the Raptor 1200
> >drives
> >the motor on the Dyno, NOT the drive motor in Goldie.. and I have the
> >charger on all the time while I am sucking a few Hundred motor amps at
will
> >from the Pack. The charge keeps up, when I am doing signal conditioning
> >designs between pulls.
> >
> >So... don't worry about small loads or even monster loads while the
charger
> >is on. The charger will fingure it out, and keep on stuffing what it can
> >into the pack.
>
>
> This is great to know Rich.
>
> I get inquiries all the time from folks who want to make a hybrid drive
> system and need a good/reliable genset/charger setup.
>
> I know that Sheer used 2 PFC-20s to charge his pack from a genset while
> driving.
>
> I didn't recall you giving him any kind of warnings except to provide
> sufficient cooling input. (which he could have done better, it was a hot
day
> :-)
>
> But... I was unsure as to whether this type of use was well within the
> design parameters of your chargers.
>
> So... you are saying that the PFC chargers can be considered to be a
> reliable device for use under dynamic charging/discharging conditions?
>
> Like a homebrew hybrid?
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.cloudelectric.com
> http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
>
> Cloud Electric Vehicles
> 19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
> Kent, Washington 98032
>
> phone: 425-251-6380
> fax: 425-251-6381
> Toll Free: 800-648-7716
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do the solar aircraft use?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> >Has anyone figured an estimated ET and terminal speed for a solar car
that
> >would fit in within the size specs. It's just my cuiosity acting up
again.
> >They say there is a cure.
> >
> >Roderick Wilde
> >"Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >www.suckamps.com
>
>
> I doubt there is a cure for whatever it is you got Rod, I think it is a
> permanent condition :^D
>
> Seriously, we don't yet know what kind of weight will be pushed, but we
can
> guesstimate the wattage available depending on the PV array used.
>
> PV comes in a wide variety of forms with various mounting schemes, some
> weigh alot more than others.
>
> If you used 12 of these multicrystalline panels-
> http://store.solar-electric.com/bpso125wasop.html
> That would 1500 rated watts.
>
> You could use lightweight flexible amorphous panels and save some weight-
> http://www.uni-solar.com/cons_products.html
> These are less efficient in direct sunlight than crystalline panels.
>
> If you used 21 of the Uni-Solar FLX-32 panels (looks like would fit) that
> would be 672 rated watts.
>
> There is also amorphous PV that is extremely thin and lightweight,
attached
> to like a metallized mylar type of plastic, this stuff is very light.
>
> It will be interesting to see what folks come up with :^D
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.cloudelectric.com
> http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
>
> Cloud Electric Vehicles
> 19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
> Kent, Washington 98032
>
> phone: 425-251-6380
> fax: 425-251-6381
> Toll Free: 800-648-7716
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 5:52 PM -0800 2-23-05, Sherry Boschert wrote:
I think this is the study that Otmar referred to:
http://www.ilea.org/downloads/MazzaHammerschlag.pdf
Sherry Boschert
San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association
That's the one! Thanks!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:01 PM -0800 2-23-05, Roderick Wilde wrote:
360 volts is the current limit of specially prepared Zillas. No one
in EV racing history has built a more powerful DC motor controller
than Otmar. www.cafeelectric.com
Thanks for the kudos Rod!
But I must correct you. The limit is 348V nominal, not 360.
Just because Dennis is getting away with it does not mean that it is
ok to do. Dennis has the the receipts to prove he is a true racer...
:-)
And the reason I don't design to higher voltage? I've had shocks at
336V nominal and that was enough for me.
Also, capacitors are easier to get at 450V and below. This gives
enough room for spikes on top of the full charge battery voltage. And
then there are IGBTs which have 600V ratings, and are more sensitive
to spikes.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A 360 volt pack will charge up to a peak Voltage of about 450 volts. When a
motor chopper is operated with free wheel diode and ripple capacitor, the
Voltage overshoots about 50 to 100 volts on top of the peak input Voltage
producing about 500 to 550 volts peak Voltage on the IGBTs or MOSFETs which
are rated at typically 600 Volts.
It is a matter of engineering margin on how close to the rating you want to
run the devices. The closer you run them, the less reliable they become. I
personally like at least 15% overhead and typically 25% to be comfortable.
Motor controllers can be built with 1200 volt parts but they switch slower
and make roughly twice the heat as the 600 volt parts. A higher voltage
motor controller can be built but the noise is irritating and the box gets
quite a bit bigger to deal with the increased heat load.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: 600 Volt limit?
> Just curious, why is 360 Volts the present voltage limit for dc
> systems. (I initially typed "current voltage limit" and confused myself
> LOL)
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:50 PM 23/02/05 -0700, Bill Dennis wrote:
If, with two parallel strings of batteries, you want the ability to turn off
either one separately, or both together via a second breaker that also
functions as an emergency shutoff, would the following setup work?
+-------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+
| Bat. Str. A |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===O| 400A Breaker |O==> 1231C
+-------------+ +--------------+ |+--------------+
|
+-------------+ +--------------+ |
| Bat. Str. B |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===+
+-------------+ +--------------+
Hi Bill (and all)
That is almost what I'm doing with fuses on my dual strings, except that I
am putting the string fuses in the middle, so that with the middle fuses
out, and the + and - fuses out, I will have no more than 60V anywhere.
(120V dual string setup). your breaker values are similar to my fuse
values, too.
Regards
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
We have been making an autonmous survey vehicle that will be taken into the
Australian outback and drive itself in (programmed) circles all day towing
a survey sled. Yes, we've been having a ball doing this project, and will
miss it once it's gone. If we are lucky they will be back in a year for a
bigger, better, longer autonomy vehicle, possibly solar/electric.
However, it will be warm where it is going, and all the systems are running
from a wet cell 12V battery (charged from a 'lighting coil' on the ICE).
They estimate 50 to 60 degrees C may be encountered under operating
conditions (allowing for insolation onto the battery). If they have to
replace the battery every year or so, they are not concerned, but if they
are going to have to replace it every couple of months they would be
looking at alternatives.
The battery is a normal wet cell mixed-duty (not a deep cycle, but deeper
than starting). The charging regulator is not adjustable, just a typical
Honda regulator. If need be they will change the regulator.
What will be the effect of running the battery at these temperatures?
Is the battery likely to last around 12 months?
Should we be looking for a temperature compensated regulator for them?
Should we be looking at a special permutation battery? if so, what?
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James
High temperatures are the enemy of batteries. Temp compensation is
definitely reqd for lead acid batteries. You could use a NiCd or NiMH
battery which wouldn't be too troubled by the heat but it would be much
more expensive. Lifetime estimate needs more info.
David Sharpe
Solar Engineer
Melb Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, 24 February 2005 7:09 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: max. wet cell temperatures.
Hi all
We have been making an autonmous survey vehicle that will be taken into
the
Australian outback and drive itself in (programmed) circles all day
towing
a survey sled. Yes, we've been having a ball doing this project, and
will
miss it once it's gone. If we are lucky they will be back in a year for
a
bigger, better, longer autonomy vehicle, possibly solar/electric.
However, it will be warm where it is going, and all the systems are
running
from a wet cell 12V battery (charged from a 'lighting coil' on the ICE).
They estimate 50 to 60 degrees C may be encountered under operating
conditions (allowing for insolation onto the battery). If they have to
replace the battery every year or so, they are not concerned, but if
they
are going to have to replace it every couple of months they would be
looking at alternatives.
The battery is a normal wet cell mixed-duty (not a deep cycle, but
deeper
than starting). The charging regulator is not adjustable, just a typical
Honda regulator. If need be they will change the regulator.
What will be the effect of running the battery at these temperatures?
Is the battery likely to last around 12 months?
Should we be looking for a temperature compensated regulator for them?
Should we be looking at a special permutation battery? if so, what?
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The whole tone and substance of this article is pretty much out of
touch with what the industry is actually doing. I'm attaching an
article to the end of this that came over my clipping service this
morning. This is about Peugeot's introduction of a production BAS
system. Strangely enough, it is a factual article.
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:10:01 -0800 (PST), bruce parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The devices allow for start-stop operation similar to hybrids,
>where the engine can be shut off at a stoplight or when idling,
>but at a price premium of just a few hundred dollars instead of
>the thousands required for hybrids.
>"While a BAS system is less-expensive than a true hybrid, it
>doesn't come close to matching the full functionality of a
>hybrid," says ABI Research senior analyst, Dan Benjamin. "A BAS
>doesn't provide any sort of assist in actually propelling the
>vehicle, and will often have far less capability for regenerative
>braking, if any."
This is, of course, completely wrong. BAS units have been available
to the OEMs from contractors for years in the 20hp range. This will
only go up if the 36/42 volt scheme ever gains footing. The Big Three
auto manufacturer for which I have personal knowledge has been working
with this technology for at least 5 years, probably longer. It takes
that long to bring a new technology up to the reliability level
required for moderns cars.
How the BAS is deployed is strictly the decision of the OEM. It can
be programmed for strictly stop-start duty, as with the Citroen
described below. Or it can be programmed to provide assist. I expect
to see this mode to be selected more commonly as the hybrid battery
development proceeds. I have seen (but unfortunately not had the
opportunity to drive) a prototype with a BAS-boost system.
The limiting technology, interestingly enough, has been the belt. A
single belt that can reliability handle 20 or more HP had to be
developed, as none existed. The almost universal goal in the industry
is for mission-critical components (things that leave you stranded if
they fail) to last the entire 100,000 mile EPA emission warrant
period.
>
>For the consumer, this means that any improvement in fuel economy
>will be negligible under any driving conditions, with the
>exception of extended stop-and-go driving or idling. It also
>means that there will be no performance boost, a trait currently
>associated with several existing and upcoming hybrids. It should
>prove useful only in urban markets.
Again, wrong. First off, the hybrid setup does little to nothing at
steady state cruise. This is the efficiency-optimized operating
condition for modern engines. Several things happen that the driver
isn't aware of. The timing is mapped for optimum efficiency. Excess
EGR is gradually introduced which reduces pumping losses both by
directly raising the intake manifold pressure and by forcing the
driver to apply a little more throttle which in an EFI system does not
add additional fuel. This happens gradually enough that the driver
doesn't notice. Full size cars with V8s can easily achieve
instantaneous mileage of 50mpg or better.
Unfortunately steady-state cruise isn't possible most of the time.
Traffic causes the speed to have to be varied slightly and frequently.
Many drivers have the unfortunate habit of slightly (or not so
slightly) cycling the accelerator, probably just to have something to
do with that foot. Drive-by-wire systems now appearing on many
vehicles, can filter out that movement, generating the slight feedback
the driver needs by slightly dithering the timing. Then there are
hills and curves.
The light transient conditions are where both the hybrid and the BAS
systems can help by being programmed to supply the transient power
when slight acceleration is called for and absorbing power when slight
deceleration is required. A full sized car such as my Caprice
requires only a few HP to maintain speed on level ground. My Caprice
requires 23 and change to maintain 65 mph (yes, I've measured it.) A
BAS system that can supply or absorb even 10 HP can have a major
effect in this operating regime.
>ABI Research's new study, "Hybrid Electric Vehicles" examines the
>hybrid vehicle's production potential for all major OEMs, as well
>as the technological and supply choices that can be made for
>platform development. Forecasts are provided through 2012.
I bet that's a fun read, in the fiction category, of course.
This is a perfect example of how, while the car haters rant and rave
and demand radical, impractical and un-implementable solutions such as
pure EVs, the industry quietly goes about implementing solutions that,
while not so radical, have a profound effect. BAS has been under
active development for at least 15 years that I know of. At least
that long ago papers began being published in SAE journals on the
subject. Several related technologies had to mature, such as high
powered semiconductors and better batteries. That has happened and so
this technology is being rolled out into production.
While not as "pure" as a traditional hybrid, this technology returns
much of the benefit at dramatically lower cost. Actually this IS
hybrid technology, simply delivered via a belt instead of gears and
couplings. Why am I not surprised to hear the usual suspects
criticizing this technology instead of praising it?
John
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peugeot's New Stop & Start System: 6-15% Fuel Savings
September 07, 2004
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/09/peugeotrsquos_n.html
PSA Peugeot Citroen today introduced its new Stop & Start system for
fuel savings and emissions reduction.
Such idling stop-and-start is a standard feature of hybrid electric
vehicles. Peugeot's is the first implementation of idling
stop-and-start on a standard internal combustion engine vehicle. The
big difference between Peugeot's Stop & Start vehicles and hybrids
is that when the Peugeot engine shuts off, there is no electric
motor to take over.
With Stop & Start, the engine automatically turns off and enters
standby mode when the vehicle halts at traffic lights and traffic
jams. The engine re-starts within 400 milliseconds when the brake
pedal is released, with the vehicle pulling away once the
accelerator is pressed. The Stop & Start system reduces fuel
consumption by 10% for city driving, 6% in a standard combined cycle
and up to 15% in heavy traffic. CO2 emissions drop by a similar
proportion - if the engine is not running, it's not consuming or
emitting. Pretty straightforward.
The Citroen C3 1.4i 16V Stop & Start, which will be rolled out in
early November, will be the first mass-produced car equipped with
this system. Peugeot will gradually extend the system to other
Citroen and Peugeot vehicles.
Stop & Start activates when the vehicle exceeds 6 mph for the first
time and the battery is sufficiently charged. A driver can shut the
system off manually. The system automatically deactivates under
certain conditions for safety and comfort - if the defroster is on,
for example, or if the outside temperature is too hot, requiring
continuous air conditioning.
Stop & Start consists of three primary elements:
* A reversible alternator that works both as a starter motor and
alternator, and is driven by a special belt and tensioner.
* An electronic control unit
* A battery capable of a high number of charge/discharge cycles
The engine restart is silent and, according to Peugeot, transparent
to the driver. Restarting the engine consumes fuel equivalent to two
to three seconds of idling. Thus, if the car is stopped for more
than three seconds, the Stop & Start system begins saving fuel.
This is good work, and a good example of hybrid-like technology
making its way into mainstream vehicles.
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I reported at EVS-20 and mentioned in a question session that the
"hydrogen economy" of running vehicles off of H2 goes against the laws of
physics and therefore won't happen, I was told by Ford (and other auto
companies on the panel conceded ) "Shhhh, we're just following the
government dollars". Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Siebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
> Roderick:
>
> Here are a few.
>
> Hydrogen – the “Do Less with More” Fuel
>
> Alec Brooks
> September 16, 2004
>
> A favorite vision for hydrogen powered transportation in the future is
> that hydrogen would be produced by electrolysis with renewable energy.
> System diagrams often show an electrolyzer next to a graphic of a
> windmill or solar array to symbolize that the hydrogen will be ‘green’.
> Such an approach is said to provide zero emissions driving with no
> greenhouse gas emissions. It is certainly feasible to hook an
> electrolyzer up to a solar array or windmill – but the question is
> whether this is the best use of the energy. The problem with making
> hydrogen with electricity is the large amount of electricity that is
> wasted. Fully three quarters of the electricity used to make and
> compress hydrogen is lost in the process; the electricity coming out of
> the fuel cell to drive a vehicle’s motor is only one quarter of the
> energy used to make the hydrogen. This begs the question as to whether
> there might be alternate, less wasteful uses of this energy.
>
> In a recent Los Angeles Times article, writer Dan Neal described his
> experiences driving a Honda FCX fuel cell vehicle fueled by hydrogen
> made at Honda’s solar hydrogen fueling station. He was struck that a
> vehicle could be propelled by energy from the sun. He rhapsodized, “I'm
> driving pharmaceutical-grade California sunshine: hydrogen generated in
> an experimental solar-powered station at Honda R&D America's facility
> in Torrance”, and “I’m driving on pure hydrogen, the converted essence
> of the sun itself.” He went on to explain that Honda’s large solar
> refueling station was designed to generate enough solar energy to
> produce hydrogen sufficient to drive the FCX about 10,000 miles a year.
> This works out to about a half a kilogram of hydrogen a day, good for
> up to 28 miles in the FCX. Honda’s published data for the solar
> refueling station shows that it takes about 64 kiloWatt hours (kWh) of
> electricity to produce, purify, and compress each kilogram of hydrogen.
> So on a daily basis, 32 kWh is consumed to make 1/2 kilogram of
> hydrogen. Of that 32 kWh, only about 8kWh is provided by the fuel cell
> system to run the vehicle’s drive motor; the other 24kWh is wasted.
>
> Studies comparing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to other alternatives
> often have comparative bar graphs showing well-to-tank efficiency, and
> tank-to-wheels efficiency. These do not promote a good understanding of
> the real situation. Vehicle drivers know and care about how much energy
> (fuel) their vehicle uses, not what the tank-to-wheels efficiency is.
> Vehicle fuel economy is an all-inclusive measure of utilization of
> energy stored in the vehicle per unit of distance traveled.
> Tank-to-wheels efficiency is a related concept, but is not a very
> accurate measure of vehicle energy consumption. Vehicles with very
> efficient engines can and often do get poor fuel economy.
>
> To illustrate how that 32 kWh consumed every day to make hydrogen could
> be used more effectively, consider electrical loads that are familiar
> on a daily basis.
>
> First off, we’d like to provide the same 28 miles of transportation
> electrically. With a battery electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid vehicle
> of the same size as the FCX, it will take about 0.30 kWh/mile for
> battery charging, or 8.4 kWh for 28 miles. This leaves 23.6 kWh (about
> three quarters) of the energy left over to be used for other purposes.
> With an overall energy budget of 23.6 kWh, all of the
> following common household loads can be served using energy
> efficientappliances:
>
> 1. Run ten compact fluorescent light bulbs for 5 hours
> 2. Provide the daily energy needs of the refrigerator
> 3. Run the television for 4 hours
> 4. Run the computer for 4 hours
> 5. Run the dishes through the dishwasher, including
> electrically heating the water
> 6. Run a load of laundry through the washer, including
> electrically heating the water
> 7. Dry the load of laundry (gas dryer)
> 8. Heat water for four showers
> 9. Run a 3-ton (36000 btu/h) central air conditioner for 5
> hours
>
> This is a lot of utility and illustrates just how much energy is
> squandered in the hydrogen vehicle route. The comparison is simple: Use
> 32 kWh to (a) run a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle for 28 miles, or (b)
> provide energy for all of the functions above PLUS run a battery
> electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle for 28 miles.
>
> All forms of energy, renewable and otherwise, result in some form of
> environmental impact. Energy should be treated as an increasingly
> precious commodity to be used effectively and efficiently. It is hard
> to imagine that society would want, or would tolerate, the costs and
> environmental impacts of thousands of windmills dotting the landscape
> churning away to make hydrogen, knowing that 75% of the energy
> generated is thrown away. Better and easier alternatives exist that can
> serve the same transportation needs with only one quarter of the
> energy, leaving the rest of the renewable energy to serve other
> loads. Hydrogen produced with electricity, renewable or not, is a bad
> idea. I call hydrogen the “Do less with more” fuel. California needs
> electric expressways, not hydrogen highways.
>
> Alex has an excellent paper comparing actual installations in real
> cars. He comes up with a 4:1 ratio for energy required by the FCV vs
> BEV. So do others. You may want to contact him.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --------------
>
> Comments from people working on fuel cells:
>
> "As far as I know, no one who is technically literate is an
> enthusiastic supporter of fuel-cell-powered vehicles," said Donald R.
> Sadoway, professor of materials engineering and faculty fellow at the
> Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a nationally recognized
> battery expert.
>
> "I doubt I will ever see a hydrogen car for personal consumption in a
> showroom. I said this years ago and see no reason to change my mind:
> The family-owned, garaged vehicle is the last vehicle that's going to
> get a fuel cell. " -- Geoffrey Ballard.
>
> "Hydrogen cars are a poor short-term strategy, and it's not even clear
> that they are a good idea in the long term," Alexander Farrell,
> assistant professor of energy and resources at the University of
> California, Berkeley.
>
> "Even though fuel cells are great devices, you can still do unwise
> things with them," Patrick B. Davis, a team leader in the Energy
> Department's fuel cell program, told a recent meeting of experts at the
> University of South Carolina examining the engineering challenges.
>
> Reuel Shinnar, a professor of chemical engineering at City College of
> New York, reviewing the options for power production and fuel
> production, concluded in a recent paper, "A hydrogen economy is at
> least twice as expensive as any other solution."
>
> "Don't hold your breath on fuel cells. Every 10 years they say
> commercial deployment is only 10 years away. We're still not seeing any
> real fuel cells that can
> run, say, a car," said Robert Lifton, chief executive of Medis
> Technologies.
>
> sessment came from Joseph J. Romm, the chief Energy Department official
> in charge of conservation and alternative energy in the Clinton
> administration. His book "The Hype About Hydrogen" will be published
> this spring.
>
> "Fuel-cell cars will not be environmentally desirable for decades,
> because there are better uses for the fuels you can make the hydrogen
> out of," said Joseph J. Romm chief Energy Department official in charge
> of conservation and alternative energy in the Clinton administration.
> New York Times, Feb. 6, 2004.
>
> He [Bill Reinert, U.S. manager of Toyota's advanced technologies group]
> is less optimistic about fuel cells. Asked when they might replace
> gas-powered or gas-and-electric-powered vehicles, he replied wistfully:
> "If I told you 'never,' would you be upset?" January 2005.
>
>
> Hydrogen Hokum
>
> While politicians of both stripes promote the hydrogen-powered "Freedom
> Car" as a solution to many of the ills associated with
> gasoline-dependent vehicles, serious automotive and aerospace
> engineers, acutely aware of stubborn problems involved in its
> development, are less optimistic. Bruce a. McHenry, MIT Alumni
> Association magazine, March 19, 2004.
>
> Producing the hydrogen equivalent in energy to the oil now used in U.S.
> transport would require 10 trillion kilowatt hours of electric energy;
> we would have to triple our electric generation capacity. James Jordan
> and James R. Powell , Washington Post Sunday, June 6, 2004. James C.
> Jordan is a former energy program director for the Navy. James R.
> Powell, a former senior scientist at Brookhaven National Laboratory.
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> > I need some info showing fuel cell vehicles to be half as efficient as
> > electrics, from what I remember reading. If you have any links you can
> > respond to me off list.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> > Your Online EV Superstore
> > www.evparts.com
> > 1-360-385-7082
> > Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
> > PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
> > 108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
> >
>
--- End Message ---
