EV Digest 4141
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) charger
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 3 phase PM
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 3 phase PM
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas.
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(World's fastest EV, Nakashima's Super Elexceed exceeding 350 kph)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(pih: the solution is already with us)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 3 phase PM
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 3 phase PM
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE:Dennis Berubes 7000 hp ev ride
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 3 phase PM
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 3 phase PM
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Does only size matter? (For DC motors?)
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) GM does issue individual responses to EV-1 comments
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC vs. DC / 100 mph club with AC?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you have some old batteries. You are using flooded batteries?
Not old batteries I bought brand new Exide flooded batteries because I
couldn't get Trojan 12 volts here in beautiful Springfield Illinois. It is a
pack of 10 12 volt batteries or 120 volts.
As batteries age they take more current at finish voltage. As my pack of
US8VGC's was dying they would run at around 10 AMPs at finish voltage. I
suspect you have one or more bad batteries.
There could be a bad apple in the pack. I guess to find out I would have to
charge each battery separately?????? However, I think that I need to take a
better look at the charger to see if the float setting is broken. I read in
an old list posting that the K&W Charger has a transistor that can go bad or
come loose. If the transistor is bad I'm not sure if I can just get one at
Radio Shack (if they still sell that type of stuff) or I'll try to get in
touch with K&W.(the owner and I played phone tag today) In the mean time
I'll clean up the spillage, add some go juice for the boil over and lower
the volts dial and the charging time.
Please let the list know the kind of EV you have, the batteries you are
using and where you are located. Contacting a local EV club would be one of
the best things you can do.
There really isn't any close clubs. Springfield Illinois is an island in a
sea of corn. I did join the FVEAA. It was the closest club but it is still
200 plus miles away.
My first Ev is a 1992 GEO tracker I bought on the GSA web site. It has 4000
miles on it and works perfectly. (well expect for this little problem.) It
was converted with a kit supplied by Electric Vehicles of America, Inc. (
<aoldb://mail/write/www.EV-America.com> www.EV-America.com ) The conversion
was done with 0 miles on the Tracker and the conversion is top shelf....
every thing was done like a pro. I have spoken via email to Bob Batson of
EVA a few times and he has been more than helpful.
My other EV is a 1995 S-10 truck. I thought the kit was also by EVA.
However, I don't think that is correct because the S-10 truck has a clutch.
I had to pull the tranny out and take the 9" Advanced DC Motor to a shop to
get it reworked and cleaned up. It was arching something fierce. I'll put
that back together soon. I hope to get a bed lift and move the batteries
out of the bed.
Did you measure that voltage while the charger was operating, or after you
had shut it off? If the former, there is something very wrong.
I shut the charger off. The instructions say
B. Connect the BC-20 to AC primary power. Observe that the green light on
the front panel is lit indicating that AC power is present, and that the GFI
light is out. If necessary, press the R (reset) button on the GFI. If
necessary,
also push in the AC circuit breaker front panel button to reset it. Refer to
Section 4 in case of difficulty.
C. Slowly rotate the front panel VOLTAGE control counterclockwise until
the desired float voltage is reached. Use an external meter to set float
voltage. Alternatively, adjust the VOLTAGE to achieve the desired charging
current in the float condition. The float charging current will normally be
set
lower for extended charging than for overnight charging.
Your 120v nominal battery should reach about 148 to 150 volts with current
declining to about 2% of the amp hour capacity, ^with the charger
operating^.
My voltage only went to 131.6 and didn't reach 148-150. However, I did
wonder if there could have been a voltage drop because I had to use the
jumper cables as extensions of the test lead. There are 8 batteries in the
back and 2 under the hood.
If one assumes that based on the gassing and spillage that the 131.6 reading
was low I read the above to mean I can turn the voltage down so that the
current reads 1 or 2 amps.
(BTW, be careful with those jumper cables. You are dealing with a lot of
power and energy.)
Safety first I have an insulated floor mat rubber soled shoes and lineman's
gloves rated for high voltage. I have not yet gotten around to taping off
or coating a set of wrenches and other tools but that's on the list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Ray, for the specific alternator suggestions.
That kind of technical (speed vs current output) detail is hard to find when
looking at alternators, sad to say.
But 65% efficiency in conversion would mean wasted energy in heat and a
20-25% reduced electric output compared to what I'd expect to get out of an
ETEK PM motor. On the other hand, the $100 solutions may look much better
than the $400 to my friend.
Lee suggested steppers.
Interesting option also.
But the added bridge rectifiers and the unknowns make it a non-starter since
any tinkering will end up being something I end up having to do.
> For example, a Superior Electric M093 "Slo-Syn" stepper is rated 2.86
> ft.lbs torque at 300 rpm = 120 watts = 1/6 hp, and weighs 7.8 lbs.
Let's see: That's getting down to direct steam engine speed now---nice.
But 120watts generated with 7.8# weight isn't as good as what I'd expect
from an ETEK---easily 1-1.5kw (if enough mechanical power available) and 20#
weight.
I guess I'll keep lobbying for him to ditch his PMA SC12 for an ETEK.
The problem with going to a 65% efficient alternator is that with our need
of at least 40amps into 13v, we'll end up having to cool 280watts of heat.
That may be fine on a car, an airplane, or in another air cooled
environment, but we don't need more heat to get rid of in the engine
room...at 40amps output, the ETEK should put out far less than even 100watts
of heat.
BTW, wanna know where you can spend the MOST $$$$ for an ETEK ?
Why it's Thermodyne Systems: http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/manta.html
Not only do they sell the ETEK for $995 or more ($1195
http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/pma.html ), but they also call it a
"MANTA" and will deny "high and low" that it's an ETEK motor.
Funny thing is that the specs and pictures undeniably show it to be an ETEK
and despite all that, they show the same type of lame performance curve as
their PMA motors.
Don't support these guys! Support your friends and colleagues on the EVlist
instead: EVparts, Cloud, Thunderstruck, KTA, etc.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Didn't I read somewhere that stepper motors output a more or less fixed
voltage?
Really fuzzy 10+ year old memory here.
> You could start with a PM "stepper" motor as a generator. They are
> typically 200 or more steps per revolution, so they are very happy
> running at 300 rpm. Most are two phase, so you need two bridges to
> rectify each winding (or at least 6 diodes if the two windings share one
> pair of higher-current diodes). But I doubt you'll find one big enough
> to convert the entire 1.5hp.
>
> For example, a Superior Electric M093 "Slo-Syn" stepper is rated 2.86
> ft.lbs torque at 300 rpm = 120 watts = 1/6 hp, and weighs 7.8 lbs.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: 3 phase PM
Snipped<
The problem with going to a 65% efficient alternator is that with our need
of at least 40amps into 13v, we'll end up having to cool 280watts of heat.
That may be fine on a car, an airplane, or in another air cooled
environment, but we don't need more heat to get rid of in the engine
room...
How about a water cooling jacket on the alt itself? Thermosyphon system or
suck in water underhull and dump the heated water overboard? DC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What makes a vehicle go faster is more money, not more voltage.
Dragster class might have something like 6 divisions: $5K, $10K, $20K,
$50, $100K, Unclaimable. For example, it you entered your vehicle in
the $10K category, you would have to sell it at the end of the event
for that price.
No offense to Dave Cloud, but this has got to be the most ill conceived
idea for classes I have ever heard! So if I sink $5K into an electric
motorcycle and race it at a NEDRA event, I have to sell it for $5K at
the end of the day?!? Ridiculous! I've probably got far MORE than $5K
worth of labor into the unit, not to mention the fact that I just MIGHT
like to race it more than one day.
So if someone does well at the track, I can buy their rig after the very
first day of racing, put in some cost free labor tuning it, and buy a
record myself in the very same class, building on someone else's work
without having to pay for the vast majority of the labor involved.
Then the original builder could buy back his own rig, and race it again.
Kinda dumb, not to mention that there is nothing to determine what
happens if two people want to buy the rig. If the rig HAS to be sold for
the race class price how do you resolve two buyers wanting the same rig?
First offer made? If that is the case, most of the "sales" would happen
in the pits first thing in the AM before any racing. Again, ill
conceived.
While I understand the rationale behind the axiom that money wins races,
it is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify that acurrately. How about Richie Rich who
sinks $200K worth of custom exotica parts and another $100K worth of
hired expert labor into his ride, races it in the $5K class, then sells
it for $5K at the end of the day? Richie just bought himself a world
record. It's an exreme case, but it illustrates the point pretty
effectively.
While there are arguments to be made on all sides of this issue, I have
not heard of any method that is easier to visually verify than the
number of batteries and the voltage of the battery pack. Maybe that's
why the current class system has lasted this long.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A EV streamliner shattered the 300 MPH mark on the salt flats this past
year and holds the current record as world's fastest EV. A hypothetical
350kph EV is not even close and it sounds like it is only someone's
dream at this stage anyway.
-Ken Trough
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hypothetical Bush said:
"It is now possible to build cars that are powered by a combination of
electricity and alcohol-based fuels, with petroleum as only one element
among many. My administration is going to put in place a series of
policies that will ensure that in four years, the average new American
car will get 300 miles per gallon of petroleum. And I fully expect in
this period to see cars in the United States that get 500 miles per
gallon."
Stupid lackey writing this article added:
Replace the conventional fuel tank with a flexible-fuel tank that can
run on a combination of 15 per cent petroleum and 85 per cent ethanol
or methanol, and you get between 400 and 500 miles per gallon of
gasoline. (You donât get 500 miles per gallon of fuel, but the
crucial task is to lessen the use of petroleum.
This argument is TOTAL NONSENSE. If we converted ALL the airable land in
the US to corn production (where ethanol comes from), you still would
not have enough ethanol to replace today's foreign oil dependence. Not
to mention the little fact that if you look at the NET energy equation,
it takes far more oil to cultivate, seed, grow, harvest, and refine the
corn than you are saving by reducing gasoline with ethanol.
Ethanol = FOREIGN OIL pure and simple, and is a huge boondoggle that is
designed to keep the giant corn agribusiness sucking at the teat of
government waste.
Methanol is not much better, due to the very limited supply of natural
gas and the already huge demands on that supply. All the known and
suspected sources of natural gas in the entire world would not allow us
to replace gasoline with methanol for our current domestic usage
patterns. We need to be conserving our limited natural gas resources,
not trying to expand the usage.
That is why this foreign oil problem is so systemic. Fuel based
solutions are no solution at all. Merely more smoke (cough) and
mirrors.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sirs
Having heard considerable discourse on PM alternators/motors etc I must
now put in my two bobs worth. (olde English/Australian expression).
Auto alternators have dreadful efficiency because they are designed to
be as light and cheap as possible. There couldn't be a better example of
how the bean counters have had their way in price reduction. In a weird
way the philosophy has some merit. Cars only need to quickly charge up
the battery following starting, using whatever gas was needed. There
could be a lighting load too but most of the time the load would only be
a handful of Amps. So why lug around a heavy electrical machine to gain
efficiency? These days there is more continuous load such as fans,
computers etc and the philosophy is probably out of date. Now to get to
the point-the windings are of small section & the laminations (steel
stampings) too thick for high efficiency. I am not certain if the steel
is of silicon steel but wouldn't be one bit surprised if it was mild
steel (higher losses) as Si steel is harder to cut & dearer to buy. If
it wasn't for the fan that blasts enormous volumes of air thru the
machine these machines would do a Chernobyl in minutes for any high
loads. How do you like that-more power is needed to remove the waste
heat! Put any high continuous load on them and they are outside what was
intended.
Your best bet is to go to a winding shop or manufacturer and have a
three phase induction motor converted to permanet magnet using rare
earth magnets stuck on a suitable armature and to low voltage. Choose a
frame size twice what you want and then you can control the efficiency.
If enough people are interested prices should be reasonable. I will
leave it to others to do a design for you.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Wednesday, 2 March 2005 3:10 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 3 phase PM
I looked at the web page for Hornet and am somewhat confused when they
talk
about needing high speeds (18,000 rpm) to make the fan cooling effective
and
in the same breath talk about how these are effecient at low speeds. I
guess
Im confused. How high a speed would be needed to output 240 volts? Would
this be fast enough to make the fan function properly? Just wondering if
these PM alternators could be used as a direct charging method for
higher
voltage packs. Rectified of course. And are these alts 3 phase? I have a
lot
of 400 cycle transformers, I think I even got in a couple last week that
are
3 phase. I would have to determine the specs tho, don't think they are
marked. This indeed might be a solution, gear the thing up 4-6 X. I
wonder
how lossey this would be?
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: 3 phase PM
> The voltage regulator will usually keep this from blowing up things,
at
> least short term. A PM alternator doesn't have this sort of control
> available to it, but the wound rotor alternator does.
>
> If Myles were to speed up that alternator and feed the unrectified
output
> through an appropriate stepdown transformer (maybe a lightweight 3
phase
> 400Hz surplus military job would do) to step the voltage down, he
should
> get a lot more power out of that PM alternator.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Mar 1, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Ivo Jara wrote:
>
>> Odd, it says:
>>
>> (You will never be able to see voltages this high because the battery
>> pulls
>> all power inputs DOWN to its own voltage level AND that's why you
NEVER
>> pull
>> off the battery cables when an engine is running because your fuses,
dash
>> board lights and regulator blow up !!!!!!! (Especially if you rev the
>> engine! ,,,, NO battery---- NO buffer!!)
>>
>> I have unhooked my batt from the car, even revved up, and nothing
>> happens,
>> when I was a kid I used to take it out, just to save weight on the
strip,
>> this just doesn't soud right.
>>
>> Ivo
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> nombre
>> de Peter VanDerWal
>> Enviado el: martes, 01 de marzo de 2005 12:15
>> Para: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Asunto: RE: 3 phase PM
>>
>>> Jeff asked:
>>>> I can't find the link I had to a less expensive unit but here
>>>> is a ready made unit. Anyone tried one of these?
>>>> http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html
>>>
>>> Yes---sad to say that I have.
>> -snip-
>>> That, coupled with the rudest and least technically knowledgeable
>>> response
>>> I've ever received from anyone running a high tech manufacturing
>>> business,
>>
>> Yeah, reading the statements on the website like:
>> " NOTICE FOR ANY OF YOU A.E. NOVICES OUT THERE:
>> If these voltages seem high just remember that standard
automotive
>> alternators are usually putting out 40 to 50 volts into the 12
volt
>> battery in your car. "
>>
>> Makes it pretty clear the guy doesn't quite understand what he's
talking
>> about.
>> That and the fact that he uses a short circuit to measure the output
>> current??!??!!
>> Why not hook the thing up to a battery bank and post current vs RPM @
X
>> voltage?
>> That would be usefull info, the stuff on his website is just about
>> useless
>> for the average person, especially since he doesn't post internal
>> resistance figures.
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.4 - Release Date: 01/03/2005
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.4 - Release Date: 01/03/2005
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of folks have really slapped the following idea upside the head, I
personally have to agree, not a good idea.
Dennis Berube first then Ken Trough...
---------------------------
Dave Cloud wrote:
What makes a vehicle go faster is more money, not more voltage.
Dragster class might have something like 6 divisions: $5K, $10K, $20K,
$50, $100K, Unclaimable. For example, it you entered your vehicle in
the $10K category, you would have to sell it at the end of the event
for that price.
Dennis Berube wrote:
I wouldn't typically post to this kind of thing but this one gets to me
because I am considering trying to actually race eventually.
Fundamentally I disagree with the claimer system...
I w
ill NEVER...EVER... show up for an event if someone has the
possibility of buying my sweat and blood out from under me once I win...
If I was rich I wouldn't care because I would just pay someone to build
me another one. This is not the case however. I will be in my small
garage sweating for months with lots of elbow grease and ingeniuty to
try and win. My sweat is worth a lot of money to me but that won't go
into the price of the vehicle which someone could purchase at what would
be a MAJOR discount... >>
I SUPPORT THIS ABOVE STATEMENT>I would never put the CE in this position
Dennis Berube
--------------------
Ken Trough wrote:
Dave Cloud wrote:
What makes a vehicle go faster is more money, not more voltage.
Dragster class might have something like 6 divisions: $5K, $10K, $20K,
$50, $100K, Unclaimable. For example, it you entered your vehicle in
the $10K category, you would have to sell it at the end of the event
for that price.
No offense to Dave Cloud, but this has got to be the most ill conceived
idea for classes I have ever heard! So if I sink $5K into an electric
motorcycle and race it at a NEDRA event, I have to sell it for $5K at
the end of the day?!? Ridiculous! I've probably got far MORE than $5K
worth of labor into the unit, not to mention the fact that I just MIGHT
like to race it more than one day.
So if someone does well at the track, I can buy their rig after the very
first day of racing, put in some cost free labor tuning it, and buy a
record myself in the very same class, building on someone else's work
without having to pay for the vast majority of the labor involved.
Then the original builder could buy back his own rig, and race it again.
Kinda dumb, not to mention that there is nothing to determine what
happens if two people want to buy the rig. If the rig HAS to be sold for
the race class price how do you resolve two buyers wanting the same rig?
First offer made? If that is the case, most of the "sales" would happen
in the pits first thing in the AM before any racing. Again, ill
conceived.
While I understand the rationale behind the axiom that money wins races,
it is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify that acurrately. How about Richie Rich who
sinks $200K worth of custom exotica parts and another $100K worth of
hired expert labor into his ride, races it in the $5K class, then sells
it for $5K at the end of the day? Richie just bought himself a world
record. It's an exreme case, but it illustrates the point pretty
effectively.
While there are arguments to be made on all sides of this issue, I have
not heard of any method that is easier to visually verify than the
number of batteries and the voltage of the battery pack. Maybe that's
why the current class system has lasted this long.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--------------------------------------
Additionally... If you have got this far...........
I personally have come to believe that Dennis is ultimately right about
electric drag racing. It will eventually have to compete directly within the
existing structure of the NHRA.
Drag racing IS personal.
The vehicle you build/tweak/sweat over becomes a part of you.
It IS also as much about the driver as it is the vehicle.
Dennis is lucky, after years worth of blood, sweat, and tears, he just races
against himself now :^D
No offense intended to Roderick or any of the NEDRA board members or NEDRA
competitors. You all know that I am gung-ho for the promotion of electric
drag racing. I think I have proven that. If it wasn't for NEDRA there might
_be no_ electric drag racing. I appreciate all that the NEDRA folks did to
help bring the NEDRA national EVent at Woodburn back from the (almost) dead
last year. [I thought I did an acceptable job organizing the EVent
considering the time frame that I had to work with] I even have a hat that
says- "NEDRA Official" :^D
The problem is...
We shouldn't want to be a separate organization from the NHRA.
If electric drag racing is to succeed, it will have to play in the larger
field.
Folks are gonna have to step up and spend the 50K+ it might take to create
some EVs that run in the mid 10s and under if major interest is to be
generated.
EVs will continue to compete against EVs, people will want to see that.
At the present time, it is cheaper to build an ICE car to run in the 10s
than it is an EV.
This can change. As the technology improves it will become mainstream, mass
produced, and cheaper.
This doesn't mean the little guys can no longer compete, they just become
part of the much bigger show, just like the NHRA is today.
If you go to your local dragstrip during a run-what-you-brung event, you
will see teenagers running mom's 19 second car down the strip. This remains
the heart of drag racing, that anyone can go out and run. It gets folks
interested.
Critical mass of spectators, participants, and sponsors needs to be reached
if EV drag racing is to succeed.
The evolution of rules and regulations for electrics will continue to be a
major issue into the foreseeable future.
Can't we all just get along?
That is what it is gonna take if we are ever gonna reach the critical mass
needed for electric drag racing to succeed.
nuf said
Crude but accurate...
Opinions are like a**holes, we all have one.
[my opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer]
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:00:18 -0800, Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Maybe...who knows?
> We've tried 60amp and 100amp alternators.
> Neither put out much more than 20amps at full-out steam rate.
What voltage is at the output terminals of the alternator? It sounds
like the voltage is approaching 14V and the alternator is backing off.
Two possible reasons for this: 1) your batteries have high internal
resistance, perhaps due to sulphation, and their voltage is rising
quickly. 2) the voltage drop in the cable from the alternator to the
batteries is too high. Simple EV lessons :)
If you're really spinning the alternator too slowly to charge
properly, gear it up. It has nothing to trying one exotic alternator
after another!
Regards
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan asks "Are you talking about 0 - 60 mph in 7 seconds or doing a 1/4 mile
in 7 seconds?"
I wouldn't be stirring the pot with a 7 second 0-60 mph car. I am
collaborating with some big name ICE racers on this project. On paper it
should easily hit the 7's, probably mid 7's in the 1/4 mile. It will have
enough power to get me back and forth to work as well. Maybe even further
with regen braking. It is going to take me a couple of years to put together
the 30K Canadian to build it. Once it is done it will see racing at the two
top Canadian and American street racing organizations. It will be a zero
emissions vehicle, just not all electric. And I am not telling what power
number two is going to be so don't ask. There will be lots of why didn't I
think of that afterwards.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
7000HP no kidding!!!! THE POWER,what a ride,it even carries an added spray
to increase traction while running down the track.It has the potential to spin
its wheels at any point on the track A first class ride!
I have always wanted
a ride on the front side of a train,I got my wish this past sunday.Bob took me
from New Haven to New Yorks Penn station and back on 2 different evs.From the
older Meatball to the Acella I sure had a great view and learned a little on
how the trains work. I will let Bob explain the details. Dennis Berube
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--- Begin Message ---
I've been thinking about this thread lately, and Roy LeMeur says it best below:
-------------- Original message from "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
> If you go to your local dragstrip during a run-what-you-brung event, you
> will see teenagers running mom's 19 second car down the strip. This remains
> the heart of drag racing, that anyone can go out and run. It gets folks
> interested.
>
I've been to a heck of a lot more local test and tune events than NEDRA events.
I've been to 3 different local tracks in my state. Only 1 NEDRA event. I'd
like to hit more different tracks.
I guess I'm saying the showing we put on at actual NEDRA competitions is only
one part of the EV message we're putting out there. I've been taking my drag
bike to the annual Harley Drags at the local strip. Gets quite a bit of
attention. I've had guys say 'That's a lot cooler than somebody building a
camaro with a small block chevy'. I've had guys come over an congratulate me
for spanking a $40K vette to the 330' mark - twice.
I guess we can all bring the EV experience to the general public in our own
way. Running EVs at an NHRA Powerade National Event on ESPN2 is a little ways
off.
Just keep on keeping on in your own way.
Darin Gilbert
Bad Fish Racing
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--- Begin Message ---
I like racing under the NHRA rules,I can race most any friday sat.or
sunday.It is what 96% of my fellow racers do we bracket race.The faster more
modified
cars go in the super pro class, the more street production vechiles go in the
slower class.I believe the slowest car has to run 19.99 for brackets now.
Evers, take your car bracket racing under the nhra rules you will not
only have lots of fun there may even be a check at the end of the day for your
efforts. Nedra has a great place in this also,as there is no present
record keeping of ets and speeds at nhra for electrics. Nedra can be the
record keepers.They can continue to keep their voltage classes as is now but
with
possibly an A and B in each class ------for low tech batteries and hi tech Hi
wattage batteries. Dennis Berube (not a nedra member but
still racing every weekend)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 07:25:42 -0500, Raymond Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It will be a zero
> emissions vehicle, just not all electric.
Hmm. Compressed air, hydraulic accumulators or a big steel spring?
Can't be much else :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Didn't I read somewhere that stepper motors output a more or less fixed
> voltage?
The name "stepper" motor is really describing the application rather
than the motor type itself. Lots of different types of motors are used
for steppers.
If you want to use it as a generator, then you want a permanent magnet
synchronous motor. Many steppers are this type. They can be recognized
because they have strong cogging or detent action if you rotate them
with no power connected. Steppers that lack this strong "bump-bump-bump"
as you rotate them are types of motors other than PM (typically salient
pole or switched reluctance).
The Superior Electric "Slo-Syn" family of stepper motors are really PM
synchronous motors. They run just fine on 60 Hz AC, for instance, with
one phase directly across the line and the other phase powered thru a
series capacitor like a permanent split capacitor motor.
A synchronous PM motor has a precise relationship between rpm and
voltage, just like a PM DC motor. Doubling the rpm will double the
voltage, etc.
I mentioned the "Slo-Syn" in particular because they are available in a
wide range of voltages, from just a few volts to 240v. They also have a
large number of poles; i.e. 300 rpm at 60hz.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman suggested:
> How about a water cooling jacket on the alt itself?
> Thermosyphon system or suck in water underhull and dump
> the heated water overboard?
That would work...and we've already got pumped overboard water for the 2
shell condensers onboard---one of which is directly below the genset.
It's the cheap solution to keeping the generator cool, but we'd still need
one of the better, higher current, low-RPM alternators mentioned earlier.
What I don't like about this proposal is the added complexity of coolant
flow to get rid of heat which doesn't need to be there in the first
place---i.e. there are not too spendy solutions (like an ETEK) which will
dish out the juice without dishing out the heat---and frankly, I've
volunteered enough of my time already trying to get the latest alternator
choice to perform.
David Sharpe suggested winding a custom motor.
Great solution! But big cost! And once again, with he not knowing
electrons from atoms, I'd end up having to work on the design...not what I
want to do.
My friend has already dumped waaaay more $$$$$$ into his steamboat and
wouldn't bite for that solution.
Evan asks:
>What voltage is at the output terminals of the alternator?
I don't recall.
>It sounds like the voltage is approaching 14V and the alternator is backing
> off.
I would say 'maybe' if it weren't for the fact that we've tried alternators
w/o regulators (e.g. Thermodyne's lame SC12 PMA) and have seen little
difference in output.
>the voltage drop in the cable from the alternator to the batteries
>is too high [?]
Not likely.
I installed 1/0 Gauge cables between each battery AND between the batteries,
the 2kw Xantrex inverter, Xantrex shunt, and the primary power switches and
fuses. From the 12v mains to the generator is something like 4gauge cable
and a 150amp fuse. When charging the batteries from shore AC power, the
Xantrex charges the 8-battery 12v bank at as much as 100amps if I recall
correctly.
No, it's real simple and visible on the ammeter: automobile alternators DRAW
current (a couple amps) up until the speed gets high enough for the Back-EMF
to exceed the battery bank voltage. This is several hundred RPM. We're
only able to spin the alternator to around 2000RPM max---without rebelting
with a jackshaft. We're simply not able to spin the common alternator up to
the speeds needed to bring the generated output voltage (and hence charge
current) up high enough to get what we need.
The better low speed alternators mentioned earlier are one solution---though
we still are looking at inefficiencies of 35% or so. That kind of loss will
make it difficult to get 500watts electric out of 1-1.5HP of steam.
Thanks for all the suggestions folks---and I apologize for using the
bandwidth up on a marginally on-topic item.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys,
am looking for some advice here.
I'd like to beef up my elec-trak E20. It has a fully enclosed 36V DC
motor, rated continuous at 1.2 HP (power curve see
My motor there has some vibration issues, I have already replaced
the bearings and the brushes on it but now am faced with having
the armature balanced which is a higher-dollar item. So I was
thinking if I should rather try to get an ADV 6.7" rated at 4HP
continuous.
The GE motor is fully enclosed, which is good as the motor is
mounted underneath the tractor where all the grass clippings and
dirt fly around. The ADC is open, air cooled and also a bit shorter.
So I am thinking is the GE actually a more powerful motor because
it seems to be heavier, longer and just slightly less in diameter.
The rating may be very conservative. What I want is a beefy motor
down there that can deliver lots of torque for small periods of time.
(I would like to take it to a garden tractor pull at some time)
What do you guys suggest? Should I get the existing motor fixed and
invest another $100 or so into it or should I go with a new motor
(prob. $400 or more) which may also give me more torque.
Thanks for any advice
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, for those who would like to support the EV-1 vigil remotely, I was
somewhat surprised by the (somewhat) personalized reply to my comments to GM
from a 'real' person.
-Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 6:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FW: 1-58Oxxx
Dear Mr. Donnaway,
Thank you for contacting us regarding General Motors' EV1s. We appreciate you
advising General Motors of your concerns and providing us the opportunity for
review, as we recognize individuals have many different views. Your comments
have been documented with the Customer Assistance Center under file number
1-31691xxxx.
Your feedback is very helpful to us. We have documented your concerns and will
forward your comments to the appropriate department for their consideration.
Thank you again for taking the time to let us know how you feel.
If you should need to contact us in the future, simply reply to this message or
call our General Motors Customer Assistance Center at 1-800-222-1020. Customer
Relationship Managers are available Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to
11:00 p.m., Eastern Time.
Sincerely,
Michael Goonan
Customer Relationship Manager
General Motors Customer Assistance Center
Originating Email Address: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
#Subject=GMability
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/1/05 9:59:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: GMability
------------------------------------------------------------
Name : ay
Address :
:
Daytime Phone Number :
ex.
Evening Phone Number : () -
ex.
Comments : I am a avid vehicle enthusiast,
with cars ranging from 1965 to a
Y2K model pickup for towing the
collectibles. However, I am
appalled by GM's behavior
surrounding the EV-1, and if the
rest of these vehicles are indeed
destroyed, you have my guarantee
that I will never purchase a GM
vehicle again. Fuel cell vehicles
are a smokescreen for the status
quo, and GM's hybrids are way
behind Toyota, with no catching up
in sight. GM led the way with a superb
Electric vehicle, and now seems
Determined to erase it from history,
By dragging these cars from the hands of
Willing buyers.
------------------------------------------------------------
Email Address :
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea Seth I read that PCIM issue also.
I did some checking and it's like $200 for a To-220 device. But the specs
are too kill for.
It's clear these devices will revolutionize power silicon archatechture.
But they are out of production and Cost range for now.
Put another way, When the get down to 2 times the cost of my APT2X61D60s in
the Iso top TO-227 package.. I will install them in my chargers.
Yea Lee would be right using the Cree TO-220 package right now. And they are
available, I just am NOT on the military procurement schedual.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
> Add a zero to that sixty volts, Rich. Cree makes 600V Schottky SiC
> diodes. A spinoff of making all those blue LEDs...
>
> How about that in a motor controller. Forward voltage drop still isn't
> great, but they burn less power switching off.
>
> Caveat Emptor on these, as I haven't used them (much at least), but
> they are available in Otmar's favorite package, the TO-247.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Mar 1, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > OK Lee...
> > Schottkys can only be gotten up to about 60 volts, The voltage spikes
> > ring
> > higher than that while boosting.
> >
> > Good fets usually have good body diodes or are co-packed with better
> > diodes..
> >
> > Yup... unless you can't use Schottkys then fets are your only choice.
> >
> > I predicted a full Fet bridge was going to be better. Switching the top
> > allows you to reduce rectification losses. A ON fet is a LOT lower
> > than
> > even a Schottky.
> >
> > They staid with diodes on the top side. ...I think. We had long
> > arguments
> > about what was doable and what was right and cost effective. Yea to do
> > topside sync rect they needed encoders,
> > Not cheap and easy. Doing this with BEMF sensing and a DSP... Would...
> > allow for cheap commutation control.
> > Then again they didn't want to use a expensive Micro, they used a
> > MicroChip
> > of some sort.
> >
> > So... there are ways to suck Trons from small sources... elegantly...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 10:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: Question: Max efficiency charging with 3 phase alternator
> >
> >
> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >>> The best in the Buisness are PM windturbine power sections.
> >>> They use FETs and Diodes. The top of the 3 phase bridge is Diodes,
> >>> Low voltage, low conduction losses. Ultra fast soft recovery.
> >>
> >> Who cares if they are fast or soft recovery? We're only dealing with
> >> low
> >> audio frequencies. I would think they would choose the diodes based on
> >> forward voltage drop (probably schottkys).
> >>
> >>> The bottoms are FETS that can be PWMed. This allows normal
> >>> rectification when there is enough windblowing.
> >>
> >> Presumably by using the MOSFET's body diode? This is a high-drop
> >> diode.
> >>
> >>> When there is not sufficient wind for conduction into the Batteries,
> >>> but there is voltage, they switch the bottoms Fets as a boost
> >>> converter.
> >>
> >> Clever.
> >>
> >>> Fet can be better than a diode, if switched properly.
> >>
> >> True, but if they are using ~1v drop body diode and non-schottkys,
> >> there
> >> goes efficiency.
> >> --
> >> If you would not be forgotten
> >> When your body's dead and rotten
> >> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> >> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> >> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> >> --
> >> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> >> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Encourage Otmar to do so. He wants one in hand like NOW, but he is VEry busy
with Zillas.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: AC vs. DC / 100 mph club with AC?
> >Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > At a 10sofK$ for AC inverters that can make 600 amps per phase... it's
not
> > cheap or easy to pull it off.
>
> I remember a while back Otmar mentioned on this list making an AC
> inverter... What if some people payed in advance for it? Would that
> get it into production this year?
>
> I want a Zilla style AC controller. Keep it simple and not a fancy
> ~$30,000 item. ;)
>
--- End Message ---
