EV Digest 4144
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Poll Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) power transmission (was: Re: NEDRA rule changes)
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Easy two motor adapter for Pan Bug.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: NEDRA rule changes
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Dave Clouds Rules ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Poll Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Poll Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) test
by "Virtual Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: NEDRA rule changes
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Slot Car Idea.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Here's an ev for ya!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Electric Slot Drags was Re: NEDRA rule changes
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas.
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas.
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) SFEVA meeting Saturday
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: power transmission (was: Re: NEDRA rule changes)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: NEDRA rule changes
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to take an informal poll to find out who on this list
would build an electric race car if we had "Claimer Rules" and they
wouldn't otherwise build one because of the voltage divisions. I
would like to find out how much actual interest there is in this.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple of more thoughts. An alternator can produce continuously about
22amps without having to be cooled, so at 40amps it still will not be
producing tons of heat. About the same as two three light bulbs. More what I
would like to know about is, the Etek is very efficient, but a what rpm
ranges? Especially when you look at it as a generator, it might be very
efficient at one rpm, but worse than an alternator in another rpm. Some of
the newer designs of alternators, particularly the new Denso square wire
stator units found on the newer Chrysler products might actually out perform
it in the efficiency at certain rpms. They are a fair bit more expensive
than the CS130 series of alternators, but still a less expensive option than
an Etek.
Another thing to consider is serviceability. Can the Etek be serviced easily
on a Saturday afternoon at Jimmy Jack's Bait and Marina?
I may be a bit defensive but. OE manufacturers are really trying to make
good alternators. More efficient alternators reduce fuel consumption and
increase power output. They also provide all the power for the toys that
sell new cars. GM alone has 17KW of approved devices that they would like to
put in their vehicles. So they have a lot of incentive to create better
alternators, hence the whole reason they looked at 42 volts.
But to say that alternators are cheap, inefficient junk is unfair. How much
would I pay for one of the motor conversions you guys talk about, that has
all the same features as any typical modern alternator. Features such as
2200-18000 rpm operating range, load dump protection, over voltage
protection, avalanche diodes (voltage spike suppression at 32volts),
temperature compensation, soft start, compact size, adjusts to load 333
times a second, and last but not least it should last for 100,000+ miles
without being serviced in a 150F+ environment.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Etek is a bad idea. I am just
curious if it is all that it is held up to be, and at the same time whether
or not everyone understands exactly what an alternator is capable of doing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read of a dirt circle track club that puts a $1000 price on the
winner's engine.
An analogous idea for electrics would be to put a $5k (about twice
the price of Orbitals, and the price could have classes, too) claim
price on the battery pack. Then you wouldn't be depriving someone of
their winning baby, and they could get another pack into it much
easier than rebuilding the whole EV.
Maybe another way to do this is to have a lead acid, or
Orbital/Optima spec class? The current winning setups of Godzilla + 2
DC motors + Orbitals can be had for less than the price of a new car,
it's hard for me to see how throwing money at the controller or motor
will buy you much. The easiest way to "buy" a win would be to get
Lion or Lipo batteries.
--- Virtual Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVDL Folks...
>
> The people at Cloud Electric will be posting to this forum for Dave
> Cloud,
> hence the name "Virtual Dave Cloud".
>
> We shall see how this goes.
>
> Here is the first posting by Virtual Dave -
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> To set the record straight...
>
> It looks like I made a typo error in my original post. The word it
> should
> have been _if_ instead of _it_. So it appears everyone
> misunderstood me.
> (Sorry). So I will attempt to explain claimers one more time.
> Dragsters
> will always compete against Dragsters, Street cars will always
> compete
> against Street cars, and so on for the rest of the classes we have
> now. Lets
> say we divide into six different classes.
>
> First division unclaimable. This means no one can claim your
> vehicle. This
> is what we have now. Nothing will change This division is for
> competitors
> that wish never to sell their vehicles at any cost. The next five
> divisions
> might be like this.
>
> 100 K Division
> 50 K Division
> 20 K Division
> 10 K Division
> 5 K Division
>
> You can choose what division you enter. In other words what you
> would sell
> your vehicle for, plus extra to meet one of the categories. For
> example, if
> you are not willing to sell your vehicle for less than 75k , you
> would enter
> in the 100 K division. I hope this is clearer to everyone.
>
> Also any vehicle in the claimer division can be purchased at the
> end of the
> race not just the winning vehicle. This still excludes the
> unclaimable
> division which no one can purchase ever. If two or more people want
> to claim
> the same vehicle, then the Race Director or someone else could
> auction off
> even higher then the claimer division they entered.
>
>
>
> Yours Truly,
> Dave Cloud
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 425 788 9293
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to offer some real figures to consider.
John Wayland said that his Datsun would at 50mph need 156V & 47A. This
is 7.3kW. I have data for a Yanmar 1 cylinder Diesel type L100AE (24.78
cub inch & 3000RPM) that it would use 1.6kg per hour when producing
6.5kW at the shaft. Converting to electrical output this is at 90% eff
5.85kW. Not enough to power John's car at 50mph. Now say we use a
slightly bigger engine same efficiency, we will need 7.3/5.85x
1.6=2kg/hr. Distillate is quoted at .82 to .95 SG so using the mean of
.885 we need 2.26 litres per hour to drive it. You will have driven 50
miles on this much fuel which is .49 Imp gall and .59 US gall. This is
about 85mpg US. Of course the car would do 10% better if driving direct.
You may get the magic 100 if you went slower.
There may now be more efficient engines around.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, 3 March 2005 10:54 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 3 phase alternator-why not an induction machine?
>> I *have* a Prius, and it *does* work like this.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I don't doubt that it does cycle the motor on and off, what I'm
> saying is that I don't think it's more efficient than if they
> were to use the exact same motor and exact same car MINUS all
> of the hybrid parts at a steady cruise speed, even 20-30 mph.
Ah, but it is. You can see this on the built-in mpg display.
If the hybrid battery is off-line for some reason (too cold, too hot,
broken, etc.) the mpg at high speeds where the engine runs continuously
is hardly affected. But at low speeds where the engine would normally be
able to cycle on/off, mpg drops considerably.
Here's a simple test. The Prius computers are programmed so the engine
*must* run at over 42 mph. So, if I drive at a constant 43 mph, I get 55
mpg. If I drive the same route at 41 mph (so the engine can cycle
on/off), it jumps up to 65 mpg.
> If you look at the mileage specs for the Prius it gets far better
> mileage in stop and go city traffic than it does at steady highway
> cruising.
Well, it's not far better; but it is a little better. The published
specs for the Prius have the problem that they are tested using EPA
standard tests, which aren't structured to take into account it is a
hybrid.
> If you need less than 50% of the power, simply turn off some of the
> cylinders.
I don't think this helps much. Most of the losses in an ICE (friction,
oil and water pumps, air pumping losses, etc.) will remain the same
whether the cylinders are firing or not.
> Better still, build an ICE that is actually two separate ICEs
> linked together and shut down 1/2 of it entirely when not used,
Now *that* should work.
> I stated that a SERIES hybrid will never be more efficient than
> a straight ICE at steady cruising speed and you gave an example
> of a series/parallel hybrid that /might/ be. You can't really
> prove that it is without removing all of the hybrid parts and
> checking the mileage, at your hypothetical speed, without them.
I agree; the Prius isn't a perfect test bed, since it can operate as
either a series or a parallel hybrid. Also, we don't know exactly what
its computers are doing (much less have a way to control them).
However, the Prius *does* operate as a series hybrid, a parallel hybrid,
a pure EV, and a pure ICE at different times. And, the multi-function
display *does* show you which mode it is in, and the mpg you are getting
in that mode. I'm just saying that a casual reading of these displays
seems to contradict your statement.
> Can you build one that gets better mileage than a highly optimized
> ICE designed to maximize fuel economy? I don't think so, in fact
> I'm sure you can't.
The Toyota Echo is very similar to the Prius; almost the same size, same
shape, same engine; but no hybrid system. The Prius gets better gas
mileage, even though it weighs more. Again, this is only anecdotal
evidence and not a rigorous experiment.
All high mileage records have been set straight ICE setups.
True; but I think that is because of the contest rules. Also, they don't
care how you drive; most of the winners start the engine and run it
right at its peak efficiency point (which makes the car accellerate);
then shut off the engine and coast; and repeat as necessary. It's an
impractical way to drive.
>> Obviously, you need a very efficient motor and generator...
> You forgot about battery efficiency.
No; I didn't forget. But you may or may not be using the battery. For
example, aiesel electric locomotive is a pure series hybrid; the
electric motor and generator are just acting like a continuously
variable transmission.
If you *are* using a battery for temporary energy storage, then its
efficiency matters too. So will whatever you have for a controller and
battery charger.
> Building a series hybrid that gets over 100 mpg is certainly possible.
> For an individual to expect cobble one together in his garage, is
> perhaps overly optimistic.
I agree; it ain't easy! But, I would not want to discourage anyone from
trying by saying it is impossible.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > How about a large electric winch on a truck at the far end of the
> > track... Strip everything out of the car except the brakes :)
> Naa... make it a slot racer! Embed copper strips on the pavement, power
> them from a huge battery in the pits, and pick up the power with brushes
> in the car. :-)
speaking of blue sky:
would it be possible to xmit power via a plasma conduit? perhaps guide
the plasma with a beam of light (would that work? dunno my high-energy
physics well enough)
...so maybe not practical for a moving vehicle, but - more realistically
- I've been wondering recently if it is possible to use a plasma arc to
power a free-floating (eg: magnetically suspended) rotor... another
possibility would be to have a bunch of (unobtainium?) high-power
photo-electric material in the rotor and zap it with a high-powered beam
of light to charge the rotor's electromagnets...
ok, I'll shut up now
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Otmar has two motors in Poppy. From pictrues and experience I know
there is some room above the axles on a VW Bug. With two motors and one
input shaft it seems to me this would be a good design for two smaller
motors linked with belts. Simple plate with two motors above the input shaft
& tucked up above the axles. Belts do work don't they? Poppy and Gone
Postal are examples. Maybe two 5" ADC'
s at 72v might give highway speeds and good range if you could get 12
flooded's in. Should be dooable. You could base it on that motor Adapter
from Utah. Flip it left to right for the other motor. Use it as a
template. Easy Two motor adapter. Belts might not work however. Maybe
chain would be better.
O--O
\o/
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah real life scalextric!! Every boys dream
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA rule changes
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:12:36 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > > Hmmm...I think it would be an interesting event, building a vehicle
that use
> > > a cable instead of a battery pack. Lighter vehicle, with the quick
> > > disconnect acting as the shut down at the end of the 1/8 or 1/4
mile...Do
> > > the rules explicitly state that the vehicle must be self contained?
> >
> > How about a large electric winch on a truck at the far end of the
> > track... Strip everything out of the car except the brakes :)
>
> Naa... make it a slot racer! Embed copper strips on the pavement, power
> them from a huge battery in the pits, and pick up the power with brushes
> in the car. :-)
>
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>> I *have* a Prius, and it *does* work like this.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> I don't doubt that it does cycle the motor on and off, what I'm
>> saying is that I don't think it's more efficient than if they
>> were to use the exact same motor and exact same car MINUS all
>> of the hybrid parts at a steady cruise speed, even 20-30 mph.
>
> Ah, but it is. You can see this on the built-in mpg display.
>
> If the hybrid battery is off-line for some reason (too cold, too hot,
> broken, etc.) the mpg at high speeds where the engine runs continuously
> is hardly affected. But at low speeds where the engine would normally be
> able to cycle on/off, mpg drops considerably.
Turning the hybrid system off is NOT the same as not having it there.
Among other things, you have the extra weight and the extra
(non-functional) rotating parts adding friction, etc.
Even if the Prius *IS* more efficient at 30 mph with the hybrid system
than without, it's beside the point.
The Prius *IS NOT A PURE SERIES HYBRID*!!!!
>
>> If you need less than 50% of the power, simply turn off some of the
>> cylinders.
>
> I don't think this helps much. Most of the losses in an ICE (friction,
> oil and water pumps, air pumping losses, etc.) will remain the same
> whether the cylinders are firing or not.
>
>> Better still, build an ICE that is actually two separate ICEs
>> linked together and shut down 1/2 of it entirely when not used,
>
> Now *that* should work.
>>> Obviously, you need a very efficient motor and generator...
>> You forgot about battery efficiency.
>
> No; I didn't forget. But you may or may not be using the battery. For
> example, aiesel electric locomotive is a pure series hybrid; the
> electric motor and generator are just acting like a continuously
> variable transmission.
If you build a series hybrid and design it to always run the engine at
peak efficiency or not at all, then the their are only two times when not
either charging or discharging the batteries.
The car is either parked OR you are opperating it at the point where you
gain the least benifit from the hybrid, i.e. you are using ALL of the
power the ICE can produce just to move the vehicle and overcome the dual
conversion losses.
And I don't think the list needs another arguement about whether or not
deisel-electric locomotives are hybrids or not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like the slot car drag idea Lee, could even regen back into the pack
to save brakes and recoup some of the energy for the next run.
Could you imagine getting a bill for eletric usage at end of race?
Certainly create a focus on regen in the higher brackets :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about mechanical failures and DNF's
Many time a race is lost because of a small critical piece, oops I blew
a fuse.
I can imagine this as a secondary event that would be a great way of
selling EV's to gassers, but they would have to go head to head with the
EV's.
Could one car be "for claim" (sale) and the other not and still race in
same class against each other?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would be willing to compete this way.
The way I see it, there are two principle competing views about the value
of one's efforts and the resulting value of the vehicle they've built.
On the one hand, there's the view held by many who have posted on this
subject that a dragster is an immutable expression of a particular
builder's/designer's/team's skill, and is the result of enormous effort
that produces a sense of attachment that is beyond monetary compensation.
Also, the idea that the vehicle is a continuing testbed, and if it were
"bought away" following a race, that much of that work would be lost or
the effort of redoing what was done would be an undue burden.
On the other hand, there's the opposing view that if you have
appropriately factored the cost of your materials *and your labor* into
the bracket you're racing in, then if your car is purchased at the end,
you now have the resources to build another car. Having played a
supporting role in the design and construction of a few EVs so far and
currently in the early stages of the first project of my own, I can't
imagine someone completing a vehicle and not feeling like there are
aspects that could have been executed better. Money is a limiting factor
for many of us in "doing it over again"; this seems like a great way to
give someone with demonstrated talent the opportunity to perfect the skill
of high-performance EV design.
The end result is that instead of *one* really fast car making positive
impressions at drag events, the world now has *two*.
The only serious problem in fairness that I can see is the issue that was
mentioned earlier of a wealthy person spending a lot of money on a car and
then running it in a lower price bracket to buy the record. The only
mitigation I can think of off the top of my head is to make the records
periodic: a record for each bracket for each year, for example. This
would also make sense when considering the changing value of money over
time, and the changing value of components as manufacturing expands and
horsepower [hopefully?] becomes cheaper.
Of course, this pretty much implies that these records hold an auxiliary
status to some other form of ranking or classification that can record
permanent all-time records. Like, say, voltage.
I think the current system is appropriate for what it's doing -- giving
folks a goal to attain, to push the performance of EVs ever higher. I also
think that a claimer system could help spread interest in EV drag racing
as an activity. Perhaps they both have a place.
--chris
Roderick Wilde said:
> I would like to take an informal poll to find out who on this list
> would build an electric race car if we had "Claimer Rules" and they
> wouldn't otherwise build one because of the voltage divisions. I
> would like to find out how much actual interest there is in this.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> NEDRA President
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod's Wilde informal poll vote:
Count me as a NO.
Claimer rules would not make me build a drag vehicle.
But then, I likely wouldn't build one regardless.
HOWEVER, with the Claimer Rules, I might be tempted to show up
at the races with a $10,000 cashier's check...then who knows?!
Thus, indirectly, the "claimer rules" would indeed expand the number
of EVs being built to race since the guy who had to sell his car
to someone with a check but no racer would go back and build
another one to replace his loss.
BTW- I cast a sympathy vote for a full scale slot car bracket----that would
be neat! A subcategory could be R/C full scale EV slot cars.
-Myles
Off topic: A friend of mine is building a steam-powered dragster and hopes
to enter it in next year's centennial drag races on the beach at Ormond
Beach, Flordia. The centennial celebrates the centennial of Fred Marriott
setting the world speed record of 127.66mph in a coffin-shaped, lightweight
Stanley Steamer. That record went unbroken for 4 years until 1910 when a
Benz beat it---even then, unofficially, in 1907 it was reported that
Marriott had been going over 190mph on the beach when his steamer caught
air, largely disintegrated and ended up in the water---Marriott survived.
Anyway, it'll be quite a steam event next January.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I
> would like to know about is, the Etek is very efficient, but a what rpm
> ranges? Especially when you look at it as a generator, it might be very
> efficient at one rpm, but worse than an alternator in another rpm.
The efficiency curves of motors run as generators is almost the same
either way.
Based on the published torque curves for the etek and some experimenting
I've done with other PMDC motors, I would /estimate/ that in order to
produce 40 amps @ 14V, the etek would need to spin a little faster than 1k
rpm and would be running at about 80% efficiency.
The main problem (as I see it) in using an Etek as a generator is that
it's actually a little too efficient. Allow me to explain.
The more efficient a PMDC motor is the flatter it's RPM curve becomes. A
hypothetical 100% efficient PMDC motor when fed a given voltage from
perfect source would have the same RPM at no load as it does at full load
Using real PMDC motors as a generator/charger, with no external regulator,
the only way to control current is by changing RPM.
In the case of the Etek zero current would be somewhere around 990 RPM, 40
amps out around 1050 rpm and 100 amps out at perhaps 1150 rpm.
Note: in order to keep the battery from causing the motor to, umm, 'motor'
at low RPMs (less than ~850 in this case), you'll need a blocking diode.
In order to overcome the voltage drop in the diode, you'll need to spin
the generator 6-7% faster.
So, assuming 40A @ 14V charing current and a standard regulator type
diode, you're talking something like 1100 RPM.
Final note: Unless you babysit the pack while it's charging, you are
going to end up with a taper charger. It will start off with maybe 100
amps charging current and then taper off during the whole charging period,
unless of course, you play around with the steam engines output speed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Virtual Dave writes:
>
> You can choose what division you enter. In other words what you would sell
> your vehicle for, plus extra to meet one of the categories. For example, if
> you are not willing to sell your vehicle for less than 75k , you would enter
> in the 100 K division. I hope this is clearer to everyone.
And most likely be beat by someone that actually did spend $100k on their
vehicle?
> Also any vehicle in the claimer division can be purchased at the end of the
> race not just the winning vehicle. This still excludes the unclaimable
> division which no one can purchase ever. If two or more people want to claim
> the same vehicle, then the Race Director or someone else could auction off
> even higher then the claimer division they entered.
What I don't inderstand is why anyone would want to enter this type of
race. What's the incentive? Do the racers win cash in each division?
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
test
.
Yours Truly,
Dave Cloud
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
425 788 9293
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Could you imagine getting a bill for eletric usage at end of race?
> Certainly create a focus on regen in the higher brackets :-)
Not really... consider that even if a car managed to consume a full
600kW for an entire 10s run, this only amounts to 1.67kWh, or about
$0.10 worth of electricity.
Look at it another way, the slot cars wouldn't have batteries to
recharge, and so this would be the total energy consumed for a run (no
charger/chemcical efficiency to account for). At the present time, the
racers all have batteries that get recharged in the pits largely on the
dragstrip's dime from outlets provided free of charge (e.g. at
Woodburn); the total electricity consumption for the day isn't
significant enough to show up on the track owner's radar.
Just think how many runs you could get in for the cost of a gallon of
high octane fuel! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Getting OT a bit here but, did you all check out the Power Tool Drag Racing
on Discovery last week?
Two 70 foot long, 18" wide tracks made of plywood that you run your
contraptions powered or made by some sort of power tool. And yes they run
down the tracks with extension cords trailing behind.
Pretty crazy.
Chip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA rule changes
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:12:36 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > > Hmmm...I think it would be an interesting event, building a vehicle
that use
> > > a cable instead of a battery pack. Lighter vehicle, with the quick
> > > disconnect acting as the shut down at the end of the 1/8 or 1/4
mile...Do
> > > the rules explicitly state that the vehicle must be self contained?
> >
> > How about a large electric winch on a truck at the far end of the
> > track... Strip everything out of the car except the brakes :)
>
> Naa... make it a slot racer! Embed copper strips on the pavement, power
> them from a huge battery in the pits, and pick up the power with brushes
> in the car. :-)
>
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Naa... make it a slot racer! Embed copper strips on the pavement, power
> them from a huge battery in the pits, and pick up the power with brushes
> in the car. :-)
How practical is this idea? Not nesecarily for the strip,
but on the freeway where you need extra range.
If it were installed on the uphills you could replace
high uphill current draws with battery charging current.
Anyone ever tried this experiment at home?
Doesn't it pretty much come down to a type of "drive over"
charging system with a very long pickup conduit.
Think "bumper car" pickups.
Forget the Hydrogen Highway.
How about a real "Live" Electric Highway!!
Talk about turning the disadvantages of recharging into
a unique advantage of charging while still in transit!
Implimentation Thoughts:
How about a pair of embedded rails that could be driven over
and synced up with. There could be multiple short segments such
that each segment could be made safe with ground fault/brakers.
The segemnts could also help distribute loads and increase the
load carrying capabilities to meet changing demands as use grows.
|___ ___|
Vehicle \/ Pickup device.
_____ ___________
|^| |^|
\__/
Pair of rails with center guide slot.
( How about using old railroad rails,
since we're not using them any more ) <Sarcastic Grin>
L8r
Ryan
PS. Wonder if the DOT would let us use some sholder for "testing"?
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--- Begin Message ---
Alan Batie wrote: ( nothing? )
(everything was stripped and hidden for me)
Here's the link he was trying to share (pretty kewl):
http://www.peak.org/~kmr3/M&LKRailroad/viewpics.html
L8r
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeff, Your fantasy is already a reality. Go to
http://www.reent.com/karts/dragster/dragsterdetail.htm I beleive there are
others like this as well around the country.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: NEDRA rule changes
I like the slot car drag idea Lee, could even regen back into the pack
to save brakes and recoup some of the energy for the next run.
Could you imagine getting a bill for eletric usage at end of race?
Certainly create a focus on regen in the higher brackets :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
If multiple bidders want the car, auction it off. If the price goes out
of the bracket it raced in, it would invalidate the win (and record),
and probably the sale. (since it would no longer be considered the
winner).
I admit such a system might make me nervous, but it is interesting. It
deserves some thought.
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:35 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas.
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You're missing Peter's point. See it as an appraisal how much
> people think it worth, just like a house. No one can force
> you to sell it, the only purpose is to put you in fair
> competition bracket.
Actually, as I understand this sort of 'claimer' system, it is exactly
the case that if someone wants to buy the vehicle at the end of the
race, you *must* sell it. That is the point; otherwise, I could put
$30k into a car but claim it was only $5k and then refuse to sell it
after blowing all the real $5k vehicles away.
Since 'claimer' type systems are apparently in place in other forms of
racing, does anyone know what would happen if someone like Ryan were to
race his vehicle in the appropriate price class and win, but then refuse
to sell it if someone wanted to buy it? I would expect this should be
allowable, but that if the owner refuses to sell then they immediately
lose any record they might have had claim to with that vehicle since it
immediately becomes suspect of belonging in another class.
To answer someone else's question, I assume that if more than one person
wants to buy the vehicle that either some lottery would be held to
determine the winning buyer, or the car would go to the highest bidder
(i.e. there is no reason why supply and demand could not result in a $5k
class vehicle selling for $10k if several people are interested in it,
although I expect that might just force the new owner to run it in the
$10k class ;^>.
I think that the price brackets are a good idea as it really is money
that makes you go faster, not voltage, etc., just as Dave Cloud says.
Ultimately the NEDRA recordbook will be dominated by those with
sponsorship (it already is, so some extent) or deeper pockets and
without some form of differentiation based on vehicle cost, etc. the
hobbiests, etc. will be driven away. The claimer system is a form of
'self-policing' to keep people honest in which class their vehicle races
in, but I don't see it working at the present time because there simply
isn't the required 'critical mass' of racers and serious wannabes for
there to be any real concern that someone might actually 'claim' a $5k
or $10k or higher vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Until it gets wet and starts to corrode ;)
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Sure. Pure math. 8 strings and 16,000A then must be
no problem either, right? And, so on...
I would rather have to deal with high currents than high voltages. In
the extreme, you could make your frame out of two aluminum bussbars,
with the batteries and motors connected between them. Tens of thousands
of amps would still be no problem. :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
Join us at the March meeting of the San Francisco
Electric Vehicle Association this Saturday, March 5,
from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. at 847 Haight Street, between
Scott and Divisadero; 415-861-7278 for more info.
Here's what's on tap:
- Talk about creating an SFEVA lending library of
tools, videos, and more.
- Update on the ongoing vigil to save 77 EV1s in
Burbank, Calif. Write postcards (which we'll supply)
supporting the vigil.
- Create an issue statement to offer to political
parties so that EVs and the PV/EV concept get
incorporated into party platforms.
- Talk about potential Earth Day activities for April
and other fun events.
Hope to see you there!
=====
Sherry Boschert
President
San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association
415-681-7731
www.sfeva.org
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> I like the slot car drag idea Lee, could even regen back into the pack
> to save brakes and recoup some of the energy for the next run.
>
> Could you imagine getting a bill for eletric usage at end of race?
> Certainly create a focus on regen in the higher brackets :-)
That *would* be cool, wouldn't it? The actual energy usage with regen
would be pretty small. Even without regen, I'll bet the drag racers will
tell you that the watthours used per run is just pocket change.
In a mad sort of way, you really *could* human-drivable electric
vehicles where the power was brought in externally. Slot cars, or
overhead wires like a city bus, or carnival-style bumper-cars with a
metal floor and overhead mesh.
I wonder if anyone running the indoor electric go-kart tracks has
considered a metal floor and overhead mesh to power them instead of
on-board batteries?
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
> speaking of blue sky:
> would it be possible to xmit power via a plasma conduit? perhaps
> guide the plasma with a beam of light (would that work? dunno my
> high-energy physics well enough)
>
> ...so maybe not practical for a moving vehicle, but - more
> realistically - I've been wondering recently if it is possible to
> use a plasma arc to power a free-floating (eg: magnetically
> suspended) rotor...
Sounds sort of like a rail gun... an electrically powered cannon that
propels the "shell" with a moving magnetic or electric field.
They sell a lot of solar-powered car kits to schools and hobbyists. Most
come with utter junk for the solar panels and motors, so they barely
work even in bright sunlight. One way around this (so the kids don't
feel like a complete loser) is to shine a bright light on them, or use
handheld mirrors to concentrate sunlight enough to make them work.
As for your solar motor; I once put two solar cells on the arms of a
"windmill" that was mounted on the shaft of a small AC motor. The solar
cells were wired back-to-back to the motor coil. When you positioned it
so the sun only illuminated 1 solar cell at a time, it ran! The solar
cells were alternately in sun/shadow/sun/shadow as it turned, and so
produced the AC needed to run the motor.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AND (Not to perpetuate a silly idea) the technology already exist in
electric subway trains. Seriously, though, this kind of discussion is good,
in that we are thinking outside the box, and that is where all the good
ideas come from.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: NEDRA rule changes
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Could you imagine getting a bill for eletric usage at end of race?
Certainly create a focus on regen in the higher brackets :-)
Not really... consider that even if a car managed to consume a full
600kW for an entire 10s run, this only amounts to 1.67kWh, or about
$0.10 worth of electricity.
Look at it another way, the slot cars wouldn't have batteries to
recharge, and so this would be the total energy consumed for a run (no
charger/chemcical efficiency to account for). At the present time, the
racers all have batteries that get recharged in the pits largely on the
dragstrip's dime from outlets provided free of charge (e.g. at
Woodburn); the total electricity consumption for the day isn't
significant enough to show up on the track owner's radar.
Just think how many runs you could get in for the cost of a gallon of
high octane fuel! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray-
> 22amps without having to be cooled, so at 40amps it still will not be
> producing tons of heat. About the same as two three light
> bulbs.
I'm not sure about that...double the amps and you'll quadruple the power
loss in the windings. Are you saying that at 40amps you'd expect 200watts
loss and only 50watts loss at 20amps? If so, then that alternator would be
delivering around 500watts, losing 200watts, for an efficiency of 82%.
I'm skeptical if low cost alternators are that good at 40amps---please
convince me because I WANT ONE!!!
> More what I would like to know about is, the Etek is very efficient, but
> a what rpm ranges?
The better question for the ETEK is "over what load or current ranges?"
Etek data shows:
Kb^-1 = 72RPM/v
Speed decay with load: 500RPM/173a ~ 2.9 RPM/amp
Rint ~ .040ohm ( I erred in saying this is .025ohm...)
The ETEK spec curves show:
At 48v, efficiency doesn't reach 80% until 20amps are drawn (~3500RPM)
then it peaks at 88% between 70 and 110amps (~3300-3250RPM)
and drops to 87% at the Imax(cont) = 160amps (~3200RPM)
At 36v, efficiency doesn't reach 80% until 20amps are drawn (~2450RPM)
then it peaks at 89% between 70 and 90amps (~2350-2300RPM)
and drops to 86.5% at the Imax(cont) = 160amps (~2200RPM)
At 24v, efficiency doesn't reach 80% until 26amps are drawn (~1650RPM)
then it peaks at 86% at 70amps (~1540RPM)
and drops to 83% at the Imax(cont) = 160amps (~1370RPM)
While I don't see a graph for 12v.
I'd estimate from above that 80% efficiency would be for:
30amps < Ig < 160amps
(780 - 400RPM)
In my friend's steam gen case, for 40amps output into 13.2v, I'd estimate:
Speed = (13.2+.040*40)*72RPM/v = 1066RPM
Loss: 1.6v * 40a = 64watts
Efficiency: 100* (13.2/14.8) = 89% (resistive losses only)
Clearly there'll be other losses in the motor besides the resistive.
Still, on paper, this motor looks like it'll do quite well as an efficient
generator at this power level and should dissipate well under 100watts.
> Some of the newer designs of alternators, particularly the new Denso
> square wire stator units found on the newer Chrysler products might
> actually out perform it in the efficiency at certain rpms.
We want efficient generation at low RPMs---ideally 1400RPM or less.
> Can the Etek be serviced easily on a Saturday afternoon at
> Jimmy Jack's Bait and Marina?
No, but neither can the 15HP Bryan industrial boiler, the twin 10HP Tiny
Power 2-cylinder steam propulsion engines, the 2-cylinder steam gen engine,
the 2 feedwater pumps, the 2 vacuum pumps or even the 2 shell condensers.
So that's not a big issue at all.
In my case, I've used my ETEK now for a year and a half, with probably
200hours on the motor. I haven't checked them, but I'm still on the first
set of brushes. I have 2 extra pair just in case.
Dave's steamboat may see 50-100hrs runtime/year max.
He probably won't need to see Jimmy Jack.
> I may be a bit defensive but. OE manufacturers are really
> trying to make good alternators.
And I say "bring 'em on!"
I don't want to see my buddy shell out $400 for an ETEK when he can get a
suitable cheaper alternator which'll give him 40amps into 12v from 1-1.5HP
of steam.
But our luck hasn't been good so far.
Here's what sucks: you buy an alternator from Jimmy Jack's alternator
shop---you get ZERO specs. No curves, no idea what the internal resistance
is, no idea what the thing's output capabilities vs RPM is.
The data you provided with your email was among the first I'd ever seen for
alternators.
Dave picked up a new alternator from the Jimmy Bob and was told that it was
a high 100amp output alternator and worked at low RPM...but got no data or
curves or even a part# I could look the info up on the internet to figure it
out...the best we could do was hook it up correctly, fire up the boiler,
open up the steam valve and let'r rip---once again being disappointed with
the result.
> But to say that alternators are cheap, inefficient junk is unfair.
For our application, many are junk.
Sure, wide operating range and all the features you'd expect with a
decades-mature product, but as someone already pointed out, low weight,
compact size and reliability have all played greater importance in
alternator design than high efficiency.
In our case, we don't care about light weight or compact size.
> not everyone understands exactly what an alternator is capable of doing.
I understand perfectly.
If I have an application which has a 2k-12kRPM mechanical source, ample
ventilation, needs light weight and a small package for a generator and all
for a low cost, the standard automobile alternator is the way to go.
IF on the other hand, the power source is limited (e.g. low-HP steam),
efficiency is key, low-RPM operation is crucial, cooling is undesired, space
and weight aren't that big of a deal and low cost is not the primary
concern, then a very-low internal resistance, high Back EMF generator such
as the ETEK motor may be the best choice.
Believe me, I'd rather just bolt in another alternator and be done with it-
-Myles
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