EV Digest 4148
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Two Boost Options
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Additional outside funding
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 100,000 volt DC power supply
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: the VOLTSWAGON (was: Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Disturbing energy use.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: That other VW kit
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 100,000 volt DC power supply
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Additional outside funding
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Two Boost Options
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: 100,000 volt DC power supply
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Warning sound for approaching EV
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: That other VW kit
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Shunt Regulators
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Disturbing energy use.
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Warning sound for approaching EV
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Compound wound motors
by Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill and All,
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm probably going to install a boost pack of BB600
> Nicads along with my TS
> cells and am considering two options, on which I
> wanted to get some
> opinions:
>
> 1) Use a circuit like Doug Hartley designed, where
> the two packs are
> connected via a Schottky diode at their positive
> terminals. The Nicad pack
> is slightly lower in nominal voltage than the TS
> pack, so the Nicads kick in
> only when the voltage sags on the TS pack (Doug
> posted some good
> explanations of this on the list last fall, using TS
> and PbA).
I'd go with 1 as it with a little experience it
will be easy to make automatic by adjusting the
numbers of ni-cad cells.
You should make it where both run out about the
same time to get max range also. With the stiffness of
the nicads and the sag of the TS's start with about
8-10% less charged resting voltage of the TS's for the
nicads and adjust from there with experience from
using them as your guide.
Watering shouldn't be as bad a problem if you
don't overcharge them by just equalizing them every 5
charges or so and not charging until you run them at
least 1/2 way down if possible.
You'll have to charge them seperately but you can
use one charger by making a cut-off circuit for the
nicads and let the charger go on to finish the TS's.
Instead of the diode a contactor on each bank
would be better so the nicads can get recharged if
heavy currents are used a lot from the TS's while
coasting, stopped at a light, ect. If the voltage is
too close together the ni-cads could become discharged
and reverse a cell.
So put voltmeters or better E-meters on each bank
until you achieve the best voltage ratio between the
banks.
An E-meter can also control the charging of the
ni-cads by turning off a relay or the bank contactor
when they are charged, 105-110% of the withdrawn
amphrs, then letting the TS's go on until they are
charged by whatever means you will use for them. An
e-meter may be the ticket for them too but I don't
know that much about them yet on charging.
What are you putting these in?
Which TS cells?
Pack voltage?
Charger?
Motor?
Both batt types will need a break in period before
they settle down into a steady pattern, the ni-cads
about 5 cycles and the TS's ? cycles.
>
> 2) Keep the two packs separate (tied together at
> negative, but separated at
> positive), with the Nicad voltage higher than the
> TS, right up to the max.
> voltage that the Curtis 1231C can handle. When
> extra power is needed, the
> driver manually switches from one pack to the other
> via a dashboard switch.
> BB600s were intended for high current draws to begin
> with, so this might
> make sense and add some capacity, but at the expense
> of being manual vs.
> automatic, and of not allowing sharing of the load
> between the Nicads and
> the TS cells. Plus, of course, I'd be carrying
> around the extra Nicad
> weight all the time, even when not using it.
>
> First option probably still seems the best to me,
> but I wanted to see what
> others thought.
>
> I picked Nicads over PbA because, even though
> watering will be a minor
> hassle, I've got a long uphill climb at the end of
> my daily commute. Lots
> of power needed for about a 15-minute stint.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
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In a message dated 3/3/05 12:57:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What is something where you think "If I only had a lithium pack and the
bms to support it______, I could
finally run lo 7s at over 178mph_in the qt.mi.____ ."Dennis Berube
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Ray, for the generous offer on the alternator.
I've sent email to my friend to ask him if he's interested---I'll email you
off list if he's interested.
>On my test bench a regular fan cooled alternator will not get
>to hot too touch, barely warm, at 40amps, even after an hour.
>Mind you, the more I think about it could be displacing
>600watts of heat.
And that would be the problem for the steamgen application.
If to deliver 520watts ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) it means giving up 600watts to heat,
then
we need at least 1120watts of mechanical power, meaning 2-3HP of steam to
get only 520watts of electricity.
Are there performance curves for these that we could look at?
> The older style GM alternators were considered to need 1hp
> for 22.9amps of output, times the pulley ratio.
And that comes out to around 43% efficiency at 14v charge voltage.
> The new Bosch SAE J180 mount units and the EcoAir are the only
> two units I know of that have published efficiency ratings over 70%.
Checking the internet:
The Bosch units look nearly affordable ~ $300?
The Ecoair costs an arm and a leg ~ $1700+...
Both appear to claim good idle charge performance---which is the way to
think of our needs.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$25,000 plus who knows how much time plus only a few runs a year? Yes that is
high dollar. I know people who spend lots less with a gasser that goes faster
and they run a lot more.
David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are those cars really high dollar undertakings? $5k worth of orbitals
+ $5k work of motors + $5k worth of controller + $5k for the glider +
$5k for other stuff ($25k total) + lots of sweat equity means they
are still cheaper than any new gas car that could run those times. I
see the glass as more half full, you can actually be nationally
competitive for surprisingly cheap (relative to racing a gasser) with
an electric.
--- Roger Stockton wrote:
> ...
> Let's face it, where is the incentive for people to go out and
> build a
> vehicle that would end up competing against Maniac Mazda, Gone
> Postal,
> White Zombie or the KillaCycle in order to win a record when
> setting a
> record is the only (official) reward one gets?
>
> The only reason for singling these vehicles out is that they all
> happen
> to be fairly high dollar undertakings that most hobbiests simply
> can't
> compete with. We can't all get sponsorship from a battery company
> or
> motor company, or controller company and this makes it difficult to
> compete with teams that can afford multiple motors and controllers,
> or
> batteries the rest of us can't.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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--- Begin Message ---
Maybe as a cute gee-wiz lightning effect at the back of your car, you
could switch it on when motor current goes above a certain threshold to
make a show of really pouring on the juice... Or you could give your car
a self-defense mechamism to stun any intruder who tries to make off with
your stereo.
Other than that, there's probably not much use for it.
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Is there anyway this could be used for EV R&D purposes?
>
> http://www.unitednuclear.com/hvsupply.htm
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most working individuals can find a place to work on an EV, find the
knowledge they need and overcome the fear of failure, but the one thing that
just comes hard is Money. Any one with gumption can make an adaptor and
figure out how an EV should be wired but the big stopping point is always
the motor and controller. I am using a 500 amp continuous controller that I
built with parts from Wal-Mart for less than $100. Like the man said, it may
not be perfect but it works. A cheap motor is in the works. If we can get
these two items down on price there will be many more EV's on the road.
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Why bother saving Factory EV's when you can convert a VW to electric
power for around $2,000.00. I've been looking at the kit from
http://www.e-volks.com/about.html and the simplicity & logic
plus the fact that this would be a one weekend project makes me
think that a simple plan that could be followed by many people
might be more powerful than support from the big auto manufacturers.
It's a great idea, but I don't know enough about this particular kit to
say whether it actually works or is junk.
As you say, the old VW Beetles are an attractive "glider" due to their
simplicity. They are small and light, which scales down all the EV parts
needed, to keep the price low. If all you are striving for is NEV type
performance, it could indeed be a very simple and inexpensive
conversion.
I'm trying to imagine the "typical" person that wants to try an EV
conversion (if there is such a thing! :-) I see someone who is:
- sick and tired of the high cost of driving
- has serious environmental or political concerns with our present
imported-oil-based transportation system
- has a reasonable amount of mechanical skill
- likes "tinkering" with things to get them to work
- actually enjoys being a bit "different" from others
- already has an old car they would like convert
Now, what is stopping them from actually doing an EV conversion?
- doesn't have much money
- no good place to work on it
- lack of knowledge
- knows very little about EV parts
- fear of failure
The EV list goes a long way towards addressing these concerns. I think
once a person discovers the EV list, it goes a *long* way towards
encouraging them to proceed. Information is POWER!
But, the EV list isn't very good at providing *complete* information.
People are more likely to say "This is how I did it" rather than
describe "How *you* can do it" in sufficient detail so a beginner
actually *can* do it. Good directions are difficult to write!
A good conversion kit helps a lot, but they are only available for a few
specific vehicles. And (wouldn't you know it) many potential builders
don't happen to have (or are not interested in) those vehicles.
What I think would help is a more generic "basic parts kit" with all the
parts needed to convert any normal car. Companies like KTA have offered
them for years. But, to really get the builder to buy them, it would
have to include sufficiently detailed directions to make or get the
necessary specialized pieces needed for your specific vehicle at low
cost.
Things like the motor coupler and adapter plate. These are typically
quite expensive. There is no special reason that a motor coupler and
adapter plate cost $500. If you ordered 100 of them, they would be more
like $50 each. It's the specialized one-of-a-kind nature that causes the
high price.
I have noticed in my BEST EV projects that kids often come up with
expedient ways to solve difficult problems. They aren't perfect, but
they are "good enough". For instance, they cut to fit rather than
meticulously measure things. They scrounge cheap used parts that are
close enough, or can be modified to work. They use "tricks", like
putting the motor coupler on the motor itself, running the motor, and
holding a file against it to true it up or cut it down to fit.
I wonder if a motor coupler and adapter plate might be able to be
fashioned with similar techniques. Something a "guy in his garage" could
make with hand tools. Perhaps by using the vehicle's existing engine
block and crankshaft end as patterns (cut 'em off with a torch or
sawsall and use them?)
The goal is to provide sufficiently detailed instructions, that do not
require too many special skills or tools, and with sources and prices
for parts, so that a reasonable person can look it over and say, "Yes! I
can do that!"
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
> Sounds like a serious small business opportunity -- build 'em and
> sell 'em.
>
> Heck, it could be done as a non-profit -- have high school kids
> (or anyone else who wants to sign up for a free "learn how to
> build an EV conversion" course) cycle through and do the
> conversions, sell the cars off relatively cheap and use the
> profits to buy new materials and pay for the overhead and
> permenant staff...
Hmm... what if we started something like our BEST program (see
www.bestoutreach.org) only for high school students.
Set it up as a class to learn about science and engineering. The goal is
to build a working electric car for less than $1000, and compete in a
series of events at the end of the school year.
You'll have to provide written documentation on where your parts came
from, and what they cost. The organization will reimburse you for the
cost of parts up to $1000. You also have to document HOW it is built;
i.e. produce a set of plans sufficient so someone could duplicate it if
desired.
At the end of the races, the cars will be autioned off to the highest
bidders. The only way to take your own car home is to bid the most for
it! :-) The money raised by the sale of the vehicles is what funds the
program for next year. The plans provide the documentation so whoever
buys your car can fix it.
This way, teams don't need to buy their own parts (motor, controller,
batteries, etc.) because the organization will pay for them (up to
$1000). Teams can scrounge, donate, or recycle any materials they like
(such as using a cheap or free donated car as their glider). But because
of the "must sell at the end" rule, no one is going to use exotic
batteries or unobtainium parts that they have to pay for themselves
(i.e. in excess of the $1000 that will be reimbursed by the
organization).
The "race day" contests would be things like range, accelleration,
weight, load-carrying capacity, a slalom, tractor pull, technical
presentations, car show (beauty contest :-) etc. Many of them are
mutually exclusive, so no one team is ever going to win everything. In
fact, I would suggest that the students themselves pick the performance
categories for each year's race -- this way, the vehicles are certain to
be "interesting"!
To insure that they are at least nominally "practical transportation",
you could require that all vehicles need license plates, registration,
and insurance to compete.
I think you'd wind up with a lot of really imaginitive contraptions that
might not be all that useful as daily drivers -- but people would have a
lot of fun, and learn a LOT in the process!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> I just checked my Electravan and the SOC meter read 89%. It had been
> sitting in Garage 6 hours after charging . The temp there is 65°.
> Yesterday the meter went down to 90% just coasting down a hill. I
> frequently go 5 or so miles and I am down 50%. The car seems to
> effortlessly glide along at 50 amps or less. What could be going on? I
> thought I could go 30 miles and the SOC would be 50%. What could be
> draining the pack? It loses voltage just sitting there. My golfcart never
> did this. It's SOC stayed up till I drove. Same with all my other
> EV's........
What kind of SOC meter is this? Just a voltmeter with a scale labelled
"State of Charge"? If so, then all you're saying is that the battery
voltage falls off fast after charging or under light loads.
Are these old batteries, whose fully-charged voltage has declined to
what would have only been 90% SOC when they were new?
Could your charger be shutting off too early, before they are fully
charged?
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search for "VW" on EVParts.com. They have raw castings as well as
machined adapters for the 8" and 9" ADC motors.
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd say that a VW would _not_ make a good glider for a "for profit"
conversion. As the well has run dry, the Beetles remaining, though
still plentiful, are on average probably 35 years old. They also have
lots of potential rust areas that are difficult to spot. On those that
have been babied or restored, the price is probably too high even
compared to a new econobox, and the dirt cheap ones will need
too much work to be profitable.
I think kits for Beetles would be great--especially if they can be
done for about what one would pay for a new aftermarket
Beetle engine, but I don't think the conversions themselves would
be worth it.
If I were getting into that business, I'd be having a serious talk
with Malcolm Bricklin about the next generation Yugo's that were
slated to come into the country starting at $4,995. Get a great
deal on already certified gliders and drop in an AC drivetrain, and
you could have a zippy little NEW car for under $15k with styling
that doesn't match ANYTHING being sold in America. Thus, a "new"
car rather than a "very expensive Geo Metro."
Tim
--------
> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:27:16 -0800
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Why bother saving Factory EV's when you can convert a VW to electric
> > power for around $2,000.00. I've been looking at the kit from
> > http://www.e-volks.com/about.html and the simplicity & logic
> > plus the fact that this would be a one weekend project makes me
> > think that a simple plan that could be followed by many people
> > might be more powerful than support from the big auto manufacturers.
>
> It's a great idea, but I don't know enough about this particular kit to
> say whether it actually works or is junk.
>
> As you say, the old VW Beetles are an attractive "glider" due to their
> simplicity. They are small and light, which scales down all the EV parts
> needed, to keep the price low. If all you are striving for is NEV type
> performance, it could indeed be a very simple and inexpensive
> conversion.
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thou it would look COOL in your EVs rear window :)
I've been dreaming to have Jacobs ladder up there. Or between rear
spoilers holders.
How would V8 guys react when you shoot your EV from lights screeching
tires.. and with lightning .... uuuh.
-Jukka
fevt.com
Bruce Weisenberger kirjoitti:
2 milliamps won't get you anywhere.
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Is there anyway this could be used for EV
R&D purposes?
http://www.unitednuclear.com/hvsupply.htm
---------------------------------
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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--- Begin Message ---
Dennis Berube wrote:
>"If I only had a lithium pack and the bms to support it, I could
> finally run low 7s at over 178mph in the qt.mi."
Are you referring to these?
http://www.metricmind.com/battery.htm
Or these?
http://www.metricmind.com/battery2.htm
Using this price list:
LiIon high energy cells (tested, cycled and sorted by capacity):
- Price per 1Ah for 1-10 cells $3.00
- Price per 1Ah for 10-100 cells $2.50
- Price per 1Ah for > 100 cells $2.00
How many do you need / what is the total cost for what you need?
http://www.metricmind.com/prices.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/bms.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Jerry. Can you just clarify the term "resting voltage" for me? The
Nicads get charged to 1.55V per cell, but nominal voltage is 1.2V. The TS
cells get charged to 4.25V per cell, but quickly fall to 3.9V or lower upon
use. So what would I consider the resting voltages of the two packs?
Here are the answers to your questions:
> What are you putting these in? (Geo Metro Convertible--very light car)
> Which TS cells? (200Ah cells)
> Pack voltage? (35 cells at 3.6V/cell = 126V)
> Charger? (still deciding--maybe Delta-Q)
> Motor? (8-inch ADC)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:09 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Two Boost Options
Hi Bill and All,
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm probably going to install a boost pack of BB600
> Nicads along with my TS
> cells and am considering two options, on which I
> wanted to get some
> opinions:
>
> 1) Use a circuit like Doug Hartley designed, where
> the two packs are
> connected via a Schottky diode at their positive
> terminals. The Nicad pack
> is slightly lower in nominal voltage than the TS
> pack, so the Nicads kick in
> only when the voltage sags on the TS pack (Doug
> posted some good
> explanations of this on the list last fall, using TS
> and PbA).
I'd go with 1 as it with a little experience it
will be easy to make automatic by adjusting the
numbers of ni-cad cells.
You should make it where both run out about the
same time to get max range also. With the stiffness of
the nicads and the sag of the TS's start with about
8-10% less charged resting voltage of the TS's for the
nicads and adjust from there with experience from
using them as your guide.
Watering shouldn't be as bad a problem if you
don't overcharge them by just equalizing them every 5
charges or so and not charging until you run them at
least 1/2 way down if possible.
You'll have to charge them seperately but you can
use one charger by making a cut-off circuit for the
nicads and let the charger go on to finish the TS's.
Instead of the diode a contactor on each bank
would be better so the nicads can get recharged if
heavy currents are used a lot from the TS's while
coasting, stopped at a light, ect. If the voltage is
too close together the ni-cads could become discharged
and reverse a cell.
So put voltmeters or better E-meters on each bank
until you achieve the best voltage ratio between the
banks.
An E-meter can also control the charging of the
ni-cads by turning off a relay or the bank contactor
when they are charged, 105-110% of the withdrawn
amphrs, then letting the TS's go on until they are
charged by whatever means you will use for them. An
e-meter may be the ticket for them too but I don't
know that much about them yet on charging.
What are you putting these in?
Which TS cells?
Pack voltage?
Charger?
Motor?
Both batt types will need a break in period before
they settle down into a steady pattern, the ni-cads
about 5 cycles and the TS's ? cycles.
>
> 2) Keep the two packs separate (tied together at
> negative, but separated at
> positive), with the Nicad voltage higher than the
> TS, right up to the max.
> voltage that the Curtis 1231C can handle. When
> extra power is needed, the
> driver manually switches from one pack to the other
> via a dashboard switch.
> BB600s were intended for high current draws to begin
> with, so this might
> make sense and add some capacity, but at the expense
> of being manual vs.
> automatic, and of not allowing sharing of the load
> between the Nicads and
> the TS cells. Plus, of course, I'd be carrying
> around the extra Nicad
> weight all the time, even when not using it.
>
> First option probably still seems the best to me,
> but I wanted to see what
> others thought.
>
> I picked Nicads over PbA because, even though
> watering will be a minor
> hassle, I've got a long uphill climb at the end of
> my daily commute. Lots
> of power needed for about a 15-minute stint.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger, I will agree that most people, including myself go racing for the
sport and not the vision of gaining wealth. Another point I need to correct
you on. Dennis Berube has taken home more total prize money in his short
time racing in NEDRA than in all the years he has bracket raced. Another
point is that in actuality we have a greater percentage of electric vehicle
racers in relationship to the number of EVs on the road than the gas
vehicles have.. There are over 200 million registered vehicles in the US.
This is not counting trucks of course. The NHRA has 80 thousand members. The
most common statistic on the number of registered EVs in the US is about
seven thousand. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. NEDRA's membership has
been as high as 70 but even if you take only the active racers which is
between 30 and 35 and relate it to the total EVs on the road we still have
over 10 times the percentage as the NHRA. I actually think that is doing
quite well. The NEDRA board will be considering a Claimer Class and may have
something for Woodburn to see just how much interest there is. From the
people I have talked to it appears as if everyone who entered would all be
in the under $5000.00 class. I personally don't see how that would advance
EV technology. The NEDRA board and myself do not want to squelch any new
ideas off hand and welcome this discussion on Claimer Racing.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
Roderick Wilde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Roger, a slight correction. Woodburn has always given prize
money as far as I can remember which was back to the first
race in 1997. We also give out valuable product prizes
besides just certificates.
Thanks for keeping this accurate, Rod. I was aware of the product
prizes, but not the monetary ones. My point is that there are no *big*
money prizes yet; while the prizes awarded are certainly a nice bonus, I
don't believe any of them have yet been significant enough in value to
act as any sort of incentive to go out and race. I'm pretty sure that
more people have come out and run their vehicles just for the fun of it,
or to take a shot at a class record than because they might go home with
a new DVM, etc.
As far as sponsorship goes. People do not sit around and wait
for sponsorship. It is just as hard work to get sponsorship
as it is to build a competitive machine. Most sponsorship
only comes in the form of product or a discount on product.
And I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise. My observation is
merely that no matter how hard they try, not all racers are going to get
sponsorship, and it is going to be very difficult for someone without
sponsorship to compete against those with.
The quickest EV in the world has gotten very little
sponsorship over the years until recently. It has been
his sweat equity and hard work at his business that has
made him competitive.
He's also not racing under NEDRA, is he? He's bracket racing under NHRA
rules *for money*. (I'm not suggesting he is making money racing, just
that he is racing where there is a reasonable probability of taking home
reasonable prizes.)
What you call high dollar vehicles in NEDRA
palls in comparison to the money hobbyists put into their
weekend gas racers in this country.
This may be true, but the reality is that there are precious few NEDRA
racers as a proportion of the EV-driving public than there are gas
racers as a proportion of the gas-driving public. I assume one of
NEDRA's goals is to see that number increase, and I think that perhaps
looking at the differences between the incentives available to gas
racers and electric racers is one place to start.
Most people in this country spend more money
on a new car than the cost of building a highly
competitive EV. For a cost comparison you can build
a top competitive fuel rail dragster for only
several million dollars or you can build one of the
quickest EVs on the entire planet for the cost of a
new car. Please let us have some perspective here.
There isn't an EV in existence that approaches the performance of a
competitive top fuel dragster *at any cost*, and how many top fuel
dragsters are built and owned by weekend racing individuals?
A far fairer comparison, in my opinion, is to compare what it would cost
the weekend gas racer to build a 12s machine (competitive with the top
EVs) vs what it would cost the EVer.
You can't deny that cost remains an issue for electric racers even if it
is relatively cheaper to build a competetive EV than ICE. Your own
Maniac Mazda is a prime example.
The fact is we are an oil based economy and the EV
Racing movement here is but a spec on a fly's behind.
Fair enough.
Make EV racing attractive or exciting enough and gassers will start
building EV racers even if they keep driving gassers. Watching a 15s or
18s EV go down the track just isn't all that exciting for people in the
stands, even when they are EVers. But, that is where I think most of
the racer action is since there appears to be very few EVers with the
interest or deep pockets to build vehicles to compete with the Maniac
Mazda or White Zombie for their records (but watching 12-13s EVs go down
the track is more exciting for the spectators).
I think that NEDRA could generate more spectator interest by encouraging
more ICE vs EV racing, because even if neither vehicle is particularly
quick, the ICE provides the audible clues that the spectators need to
appreciate the speed, power, and effort of the racers. The difficulty
here is finding ICEs slow enough for most EVs to race against heads up.
Another area I think is worth development is Jr. Dragsters. EV 1/4 mile
racing is just too quiet and usually too slow/long to hold spectator
interest for very long, but 1/8 mile is short enough for spectators to
(usually) not get bored waiting for the vehicle to finish its run. So,
EV Jr's racing each other could stand a better chance of holding
spectator's interest, and certainly EV vs ICE Jrs could since there is
then also the ICE's audible clues for the spectators.
Just a few random thoughts from a not (yet) racing EVer,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
You could mount it under the hood with the copper leads poking through
the hood as a kind of "EV hood ornament"...
It would be really cool at night at stop lights.....
Or you could wire it in with the stereo so it would go off with the beat
of the music...
Or you could put it in the back window as an "EV Brake light" and wire
it in with the brakes so it goes off when you touch the peddle...
Any of these would go nicely with the whole electric/high voltage theme
of the street EV....;-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: 100,000 volt DC power supply
Is there anyway this could be used for EV R&D purposes?
http://www.unitednuclear.com/hvsupply.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He wasn't trying to force anything on me. Just a personal concern that a
drunk or little old lady would end up getting a rude awakening.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Clevenger
Sent: Friday, 4 March 2005 6:38 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Warning sound for approaching EV
I don't know the laws of Australia, but I can't believe that a vehicle
inspector
can just make up rules about equipment on a vehicle. I would ask for
the
specific rule in whatever vehicle codes apply to you. Normal cars can
be
awfully quiet at low speeds, so I don't know how he could single you
out.
Perhaps just a backup beeper like commercial vehicles use, so you could
signal pedestrians when backing up, would suffice. (Or find a different
inspector.)
Second option, of course, is some kind of noisemaker that's easily
removable
once you pass the inspection.
Tim
--------
> > From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Warning sound for approaching EV
> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:17:16 +1100
>
> A vehicle inspector warned that my EV (Diahatsu Charade) poses a risk
to
> pedestrians cyclists because it is too quite. It needs according to
him
> a continuous sound. I seek comments from other EV or hybrid users.
> Perhaps we could amplify the sound the brush gear makes or replicate
the
> horn of a main line loco. What do you think?
> David
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter Vanderwal stated:
> You know the PMDC motor efficiency curve shape as well as I
> do; it falls like a rock below some minimum load.
Yes, but the knee is at a lower load level than you suggest.
For the ETEK, the knee of the curve is around 20amps in each of the curves
offered: 24, 36 and 48v applied. 40amps is well above the knee in each case
and well into the 80% zone.
Further, one analysis which modeled 4 different motors, including the ETEK
vs a Lynch Motor, shows the ETEK outperforming the Lynch motor for currents
BELOW 40amps (though not below 23v). BOTH of these are shown with 86%
efficiency in this modeling with 23volts applied to each and a load of
40amps.
At 30amps: ETEK 86%, LEMCO 83%;
20amps: ETEK 83%, LEMCO 78%;
10amps: ETEK 70%, LEMCO 58%.
See analysis at:
http://www.engineer.gvsu.edu/faculty/yackish/Tom%20Yackish%20Index/dcmotoref
ficiencycomparison.htm
Now, those were plotted only at an applied voltage of 23v.
With the voltage varying and the current held at 40amps, the same model
shows:
Vapp ETEKeff LEMCOeff
4v 55.4% 69.4%
8v 74.7 80.6
12v 80.9 84.0
16v 83.9 85.3
20v 85.5 85.9
At 30amps:
Vapp ETEKeff LEMCOeff
4v 64% 73%
8v 78 81
12v 82 83
16v 84 84
20v 85 84
At 20amps:
Vapp ETEKeff LEMCOeff
4v 70% 75%
8v 79 79
12v 81.5 80
16v 82 79
20v 83 79
Sure, garbage-in...garbage-out...maybe the model sucks, and it depends on
data from the manufacturers, which can vary widely in production.
Still, IF the model holds, it appears to me that the ETEK should be good for
80% efficiency above 12v applied and for 20-40amps current. We're looking
at more like 14-15v internal generated voltage which is even better.
>From EVarchives, July2001:
http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/200107/msg00316.htmlLooking
I found this point made by Rick Woodbury regarding the Lynch motor curves:
"Keep in mind that when reading the efficiency from the [Lynch] motor
curves, you should be relating the efficiency to torque, not RPM.
Many people, I believe, misunderstand the chart and think that the
motor is most efficient at a certain RPM, not at a certain torque."
------------
That is the key point---and why you don't see much relative drop in
efficiency with voltage applied for much of the voltage range for these PM
motors. The efficiency largely varies with torque or load. It is clear
though that there is a knee in the efficiency curve as f(voltage), but that
the knee is down more around 8v than 12v.
> If it were my money, I'd be inclined to take Raymond
> up on his offer of a $100-200 alternator instead,
> especially since he's just offered a money-back guarantee.
Yeah, but it means yet another test (obtain, install, twiddle, wire up, fire
boiler up, etc...) on an alternator without curves, models, etc. I want to
see the specs!!! Why is it so difficult to get detail specs on alternators?
A: because the average consumer doesn't care.
With the ETEK, I at least know this and can model the motor with it:
Rint ~.0413 ohm
Kb ~ 0.1411 V/rad/sec
Ifric ~ 2.1668 amps
damp ~ 0.0041793 A/rad/sec
I don't have a clue how to predict losses from an alternator I don't have an
internal resistance number for. At 40amps, I only see 60watts of loss with
the ETEK. Let's see an alternator beat that!
-Myles Twete, Sunny Portland, Or.
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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Frank Schmitt wrote:
> Search for "VW" on EVParts.com. They have raw castings as well as
> machined adapters for the 8" and 9" ADC motors.
That's it alright. Where was it made at, and how did whoever go about
getting it made in the first place? It just seems like a rather
unique item all things considered and compared to what else is
available.. That somebody somewhere did whatever it took to get those
produced.
What's the story behind them?
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>Are those cars really high dollar undertakings? $5k worth of orbitals
>+ $5k work of motors + $5k worth of controller + $5k for the glider +
>$5k for other stuff ($25k total) + lots of sweat equity means they
>are still cheaper than any new gas car that could run those times.
Ah, but you can pay for that more expensive gas car a little bit at a
time via financing, while building the electric car requires most of the
money up front.
David Thompson
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I'd like to build a shunt regulator to soak up excessive regen current
and thereby provide better braking and hopefully protect my battery
(36V NiMH).
What I'm planning to do is use a 40V zener diode in series with a
resistor across the battery terminals, the middle connection of which
would drive the base of a big TO-3 transistor shorting the battery
terminals (the idea being that it would never turn completely on). Does
this seem like a reasonable approach?
I also thought of doing a hysteresis-mode switching setup with a
diode-clamped inductor in series with a resistor in series with a FET
across the terminals, where some combination of the battery voltage and
the current through the resistor would trigger a comparator that would
switch the FET on or off. But these seems like a lot of work when a
200W BJT costs under $5.
-Frank
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, the SOC meters on Jet's an just not very accurate or
reliable. Since it determines state of charge solely based on voltage, it
just hasn't got enough info to do so properly. My Jet 007 twice fooled me
when the percent charge gage read 100% but the charger had never been on at
all. The batteries were probably at about 60% charge, but after sitting 14
hours the meter indicated 100%. I suspect yours is even less accurate for
some reason, probably corrosion. After all, it is 25 years old isn't it?
I would get an E-meter or at least an accurate digital voltmeter. Right
now you don't even have a good guess at the true state of charge.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Clevenger writes:
> I don't know the laws of Australia, but I can't believe that
> a vehicle inspector can just make up rules about equipment on a vehicle.
They can't. And none of the 4 registered electric vehicles I know of in Sydney
have needed a "noise-maker".
I suggest finding a new vehicle inspector.
Cheers,
Claudio
PS. I really liked Lee's idea of a "red herring", and have used it on previous
(non-EV) projects myself! That said, I suspect my first, in-progress EV will
have sufficient defects to not require this approach :-)
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You seem to have misunderstood how the shunt winding differs from the
series winding.
<teacher mode on>
The amount of field that each winding produces is the current times the
number of turns in the winding.
Current is Voltage divided by the Resistance of the coil (I=V/R)
The Shunt winding is made of many turns of fine wire and is supposed to
carry a couple amps at full voltage (e.g. 5 amps @ 48 volts)
The Series winding is a few turns of fat wire and is supposed to carry
ALL the amps that go through the armature, but to only drop a few volts
in doing so (e.g. 200 amps at 5 volts, with the other 43 volts dropping
across the armature).
Using these admittedly made up numbers you'd have the following resistences:
Shunt = 48v/5a = 9.6 ohms
Series=5v/200a= 0.025 ohms
Since you've put the shunt in parallel with the much smaller resistance
series winding, there will be the same voltage across both and most of
the current will go through the series with the shunt having only a
small effect. This may be why you don't see much change when you
connect it this way.
Since you where using it on a 42' boat, the resistance of the water
would limit the motor speed in series mode, and may mask small changes
in motor behavior.
Look at the diagrams on my first link (fig.12-7) for how a shunt
winding is expected to be connected, which is in parallel with the
armature (short shunt)
or in parallel with both the armature and the series winding (which are
in series with each other).(Long Shunt)
Now to make things more confuzzling, the two windings don't have to be
of equal effect.
It might have a wimpy series winding so that it mostly behaves well as a
shunt motor, or it might have a Beefy series winding so it mostly is
torquey like a series, but is a little better behaved (with regards to
speed regulation).
<teacher mode off>
I'm not sure how you'd determine which flavor you have without a
specification sheet or counting the coils.
Maybe a good Ohm-meter would help?
You can get more power out of it (at a given RPM and field strength) the
same way we do for series motors, increase the voltage to the armature
to push more current thru it. This will increase the current in the
series winding, increasing the field, but it would not change the
current in the shunt field, so it's contribution to the field remains
the same. The two fields add together to give the total magnetic field
that the armature get to play in. The two windings are usually wound on
the same hunk of iron, IIRC.
I know folks often use double the nameplate voltage as thier peak (and
pack) voltage on series motors and report good results. I don't know if
you'd want to change the voltage on the shunt field the same way, but
I'm guessing not. Anyone know for sure?
Jack Knopf wrote:
Thanks Lee, you put me on a good train of thought. I reread the info
on compound motors that Michael Shipway pointed me to, the one with
all the math, and what you were saying about reducing the shunt field
current for low rpm HP, which is what I am after, and came to the
conclusion that I am not sure what will happen If I do this your way
or the Ward-Leonard way, which has a fixed shunt field, if I
understand correctly. The info says the Ward-Leonard way is used in
elevators for good starting torque. Right now my shunt field is
connected in parallel to the series field and my controller controls
both. I wonder what will happen if I connect my shunt field directly
across the batteries without control and leave the series field on the
controller? The other thing I want to try is , which runs with your
advice , if I understand correctly is, modify my controller to control
both series and shunt fields so when I press the electric pedal the
shunt field is max and the series field is minimum and they both
reverse as the electric pedal is floored where the shunt field is
minimum and the series field is maximum. My ampmeter and some time
this weekend should make me more sure. Thanks for your time, Jack.
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