EV Digest 4160
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RAV4 Info link changed
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Emeter & charge voltage=undercharged batts.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Virtual Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Emeter question
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) just one more thing
by "Virtual Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 600 volt AC S10
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 0-10V controller input?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC motors and Siemens AC Motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC motors and Siemens AC Motors
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Contactor Straight to Motor Test OK?
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) 4 wd at?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Railroad - or roller coaster?
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: 0-10V controller input?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 4 wd at?
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Contactor Straight to Motor Test OK?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We've got 4 people so far interested in a joint order
of the RAV4 Info, and we need at least 10.
The link to read about RAV4 Info has changed -- you
can find it at http://dme-inc.com and click on RAV4
Info.
Let me know off-list if you're interested in ordering
with us.
Sherry
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea all my meters and E-meters are within 1/2 a volt charging and
discharging.
I have had no real issues with not trusting a E-meter.
I have had some really noisey chargers and the E-meters hold up very well.
The chargers are darn near silent...compared to the way the BETAs
radiated.
Today's RF night mare is the PWM from a OLD T-Rex controller getting into my
Measurement Computing's PMD-1608FS 16 bit A to D module.
The RPM channel on the Dyno has eaten up few Days if tinker time...
Yesterday We put the Scope on it, and read the PWM Frequency and could see
the turn off spike move as the PWM command was changed. No issues seeing the
PWM percent... then we realized the socpe was not hooked up yet!! THAT's
some RF!. Keep in mind that almost all the time a PFC20B right out of
inventory...read well broken in.. Is keeping the 96 volts of the carppiest
Yts I have left topped off. Blip dyno, listen to the Iso former moan... Note
that the Batteries are almost already back up to voltage before the motors
coast down.
So.. I am battleing RF cross conduction, Ground loops, and AC coupled
noise, and all this then gets dumped into this DELL. So.. a screwup on the
dyno can NUKE my $2500 main PC.
Dinner calles see ya, GOT data.. almost goode enough to share..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Emeter & charge voltage=undercharged batts.
> Really? That's odd. The E-meter in my Prizm matches the voltage in the
> Dolphin sensor and the Magnecharger to a T. Only diff is a slight shift
> in current (because the Dolphin pulls [EMAIL PROTECTED] for it's computer and
> the MC doesn't see that)
>
> Chris
>
>
> Bob Bath wrote:
>
> > Well, as you might've followed, my last posts have
> > been on a) why my meter won't flash "full"; why my
> > batteries always (after 8 mos., 900 miles) have a low
> > (1.500 or so) state of charge on the hygrometer, etc.
> >
> > Turns out that I set my charger voltage based on what
> > I saw through the E-meter. My last analog voltmeter
> > had bitten the dust. Once I got a new digital
> > multimeter, I was reading 20V lower than what it
> > should be set at.
> >
> > Bottom line: don't read the E-meter voltage and think
> > that it's accurate during charge. Something about
> > it's algorithm as it takes readings only sees a
> > certain portion of it, and a PFC-20 doesn't give off
> > pure DC (as I'm sure most chargers don't)!
> > Sign me,
> > "Resetting the charger cutback voltage, hoping I
> > haven't damaged a new set o' batts."
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland must not have read my last post. One would always have the
choice to register in the unclaimable division which means their vehicle
could never be claimed under any circumstances.
If you choose to enter in the $100K and your vehicle is claimed, this would
not be a "hostile take-over". I would consider it a reward for all the long
hours, hard work, dedication and creativity it took to build the vehicle.
Take the $100K, quit your job and build a new and better EV for the next
year.
The rest of the divisions are most about providing a conduit to supply NEDRA
with new members. It's not about the existing NEDRA members. We are already
in the game, we have the passion. It's not even about money. It's just
about using money to keep the playing field even to create closer
competition and to hold the cost down for low budget teams.
I could be wrong about this and I understand if people disagree. It was
just an idea that I thought would help bring in new NEDRA members. I
absolutely did not mean to offend anyone.
When I said that what makes a vehicle go faster is more money not more
voltage, what I really meant was money is a better basis than voltage for
dividing classes. By money I mean the total worth of the vehicle which,
obviously, includes all the hours of labor, price of parts, and value of
sponsorship. How these things are all utilized by the builder's CREATIVITY
and INGENUITY all determine the ultimate performance of the vehicle.
Certainly, the performance history in voltage division reflects lower ETs
with higher voltage. I would contend that the vehicles in higher voltage
divisions also have more monetary value as described above.
My objection to using voltage as the basis for divisions precedes the
existence of NEDRA. Even when I was racing electric boats, I realized that
higher voltage did not necessarily result in higher speeds. I could spend
less money and go faster with less voltage and more amps.
I realize I am a very competitve person, but I also care about the growth
and expansion of EVs for both competition and street use. I have converted
more than 2 dozen street cars for practical transportation.
I have just never liked perpetuating the myth that dangerously high voltage
is the only answer to high powered EVs since I believe that there are better
lower voltage/lower cost solutions.
John Wayland wrote "It's also irritating when the same people who want to
change rules so that individuals can 'win', are often the same ones who are
secretive about their designs, secretive about what
worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and
doing that."
I sure hope John was not talking about me. I have built 34 electric race
vehicles and raced in well over 100 EV events. I have always been open with
all my designs, ideas and component parameters (e.g. battery capacities &
motor efficiencies) with everyone who asked (and some who did not). I have
also helped my competitors prepare their vehicles before races and repair
them during races.
John also said, "To Dave Cloud, I simply say, show up with a steel bodied
street legal car, one that isn't mutilated and totally dysfunctional, run it
at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave, bring it on!"
I would have to spend between $10K & $20K to accomplish this goal and that's
more than I can afford right now. I hope to prove my point about voltage by
using either a 96V or 108V system in my dragster that will have faster ETs
than many higher voltage vehicles in the same class.
I don't have the time to engage in on-going debate over my ideas so I won't
continue posting. I am much happier in my shop trying to further develop
electric vehicles in my own way.
Yours Truly,
Dave Cloud
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
425 788 9293
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Link-10 EMeter with RS232 Interface, 500V prescaler and 500A shunt cost
438 USD.
BTW the Link10 is made Xantrex, a Canadian Company. Although the meter is
manufactured in China.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: March 7, 2005 9:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Emeter question
John,
I already sent second email 5 minutes after this one acknowledging broken
link, and posted correct one. BRUSA moved docs around and I just forgot to
update mine on the web - will do that.
The cost of the most expensive Ah counter perhaps is 4 times of the cheapesr
e-meter. The cost of basic model is probably *about the same*.
How much the emeter cost (add all those prescalers, the shunt, isolated 12V
source, everything you need to make it functional)?
As of eurosnobbery: it was asked about alternatives, so I pointed to the
alternative. Others will decide for themselves if the price worth the
product and may not see other optiions as snobbery just because it is not
made in the USA.
So get patriotic and use US emeter if you want, no problem.
It doen's look good labeling others (not me, people looking for
alternatives).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Neon John wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:55:10 -0800, Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Other option - Brusa Ah counter. Does everything Link10
>>does (except has no RS232) and some more, depending on the model.
>>
>>http://www.metricmind.com/counter.htm
>
>
> At over 4 times the cost of an E-meter, I'm scratching my head trying
> to figure out what this line of meters has to offer. Other than
> eurosnobbery, of course. BTW, Victor, the link to the user's manual
> on the above page is broken. Here is the only one I could find on the
> Brusa site:
>
> http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/manuals/bcm_155.pdf
>
> John
>
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all those who understood and supported me and defended me with
their posts.
There is always a better way, claimers just might not be it.
.
Yours Truly,
Dave Cloud
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
425 788 9293
_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correction - Elfa is dual inverter - essentially two separate
power stages sharing common CPU. So 6 phases total, driving
two 3 phase motors simultaneously, Battery current is shared, then,
too. Most likely higher voltage but the same current ratings as for
Simoverts are used, as it is 280A per "channel", = 560A total.
So each motor will see no more than 400A rms, but if you
want to see pair of them as "one system" this is 800A rms "motor".
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Don Cameron wrote:
What is most likely going to be the max amps the big AC motors are going
to be able too take as soon as higher amp inverters are available?
On the specs you cited, it says the max current for the inverter is 564
Amps. On the motor spec is says max current is 400 Amps. So the max
current would be 400 Amps. This would be Power = Volts * Amps = 600V * 400A
= 240,000 Watts. Or 322 Horsepower. That's a lot of electrical power
available.
If you get all the specs for the EV set up (frontal area, weight, wheel
radius, gear ratios), you can plug it into one of the EV calculators or
spreadsheets. It will tell you lots about your car.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: March 6, 2005 9:54 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: 600 volt AC S10
Playing with the numbers:
Orbitals weighing 40lbs each and costing $100 a piece.
50 of them at 600 volts weighing 2000 lbs costing $5000.
Each orbital having 300 Wh? If so..
Range at 250 Wh/mile: 60 miles
Range at 150 Wh/mile: 100 miles
I think they will fit in a 4' by 6' pickup bed if they are 10" long and 7"
wide. 5 rows of 10.
Range is good... How about the performance? I'd be very disappointed if it
was very slow..
What is most likely going to be the max amps the big AC motors are going to
be able too take as soon as higher amp inverters are available?
650v Siemens 4WS24 motor specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
Elfa 650v inverter specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/inverter.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to say: Alltrax serie controllers have a Taylor Dunn parameter for
their controller (they indicate something about 6 to 10V command signal)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:21 AM
Subject: 0-10V controller input?
> Hello all,
>
> Was just trying to get my new Taylor Dunn cart operational. Seemed the
controller was toast. Turned on once, wouldn't turn off, then died for
good. Pulled out another Curtis out of an abandoned project. Mounting
pattern the same, wiring the same, except for the throttle input. Typical
KSI input terminal. But the Taylor Dunn has only 1 input terminal for speed
control. The replacement is a 0-5K. The input to the Taylor Dunn varies
from 0-10Volts when the pedal is pressed. Pulling apart the pedal reveals
some type of fancy pickup, either inductive or hall effect? Looks like a
really nice setup, would be nice to keep instead of hooking on a pot.
> So is there a simple way to interface this high end throttle with this low
end Curtis???
>
>
> Thanks folks,
>
> Darin Gilbert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www2.automation.siemens.com/mc/mc-sol/en/ad9ac8bd-8bd3-4434-b703-941d92bce32b/index.aspx
http://www2.automation.siemens.com/mc/mc-sol/en/8ecc45b0-3694-4dd5-8dff-7774d518da2a/index.aspx
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Currently, are the 8" and 9" DC motors used in forklifts? Is that
their intended and purpose built application? What are the 11" and
13" DC motors used for? What is their present intended non EV use?
What in the world besides EV's are the Siemens AC motors currently
being used for and in?
Why is this EV stuff so "mystical" and "elusive"? There seems to be
so many details that are unknown and not common knowledge.
Like for example, is there some factory somewhere, right now, at this
minute; where people are building and assembling brand new AC motors
and controllers? Who is currently making use of these and what are
they using them for? (non EV use)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the record I would like to say that David has always been open with tech
tricks and has helped many at the tracks. He is very creative and
knowledgeable and is a great asset to the EV racing community. Now I can get
back to slamming him, I mean constructive disagreement.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Virtual Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
John Wayland must not have read my last post. One would always have the
choice to register in the unclaimable division which means their vehicle
could never be claimed under any circumstances.
If you choose to enter in the $100K and your vehicle is claimed, this would
not be a "hostile take-over". I would consider it a reward for all the long
hours, hard work, dedication and creativity it took to build the vehicle.
Take the $100K, quit your job and build a new and better EV for the next
year.
The rest of the divisions are most about providing a conduit to supply NEDRA
with new members. It's not about the existing NEDRA members. We are already
in the game, we have the passion. It's not even about money. It's just
about using money to keep the playing field even to create closer
competition and to hold the cost down for low budget teams.
I could be wrong about this and I understand if people disagree. It was
just an idea that I thought would help bring in new NEDRA members. I
absolutely did not mean to offend anyone.
When I said that what makes a vehicle go faster is more money not more
voltage, what I really meant was money is a better basis than voltage for
dividing classes. By money I mean the total worth of the vehicle which,
obviously, includes all the hours of labor, price of parts, and value of
sponsorship. How these things are all utilized by the builder's CREATIVITY
and INGENUITY all determine the ultimate performance of the vehicle.
Certainly, the performance history in voltage division reflects lower ETs
with higher voltage. I would contend that the vehicles in higher voltage
divisions also have more monetary value as described above.
My objection to using voltage as the basis for divisions precedes the
existence of NEDRA. Even when I was racing electric boats, I realized that
higher voltage did not necessarily result in higher speeds. I could spend
less money and go faster with less voltage and more amps.
I realize I am a very competitve person, but I also care about the growth
and expansion of EVs for both competition and street use. I have converted
more than 2 dozen street cars for practical transportation.
I have just never liked perpetuating the myth that dangerously high voltage
is the only answer to high powered EVs since I believe that there are better
lower voltage/lower cost solutions.
John Wayland wrote "It's also irritating when the same people who want to
change rules so that individuals can 'win', are often the same ones who are
secretive about their designs, secretive about what
worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and
doing that."
I sure hope John was not talking about me. I have built 34 electric race
vehicles and raced in well over 100 EV events. I have always been open with
all my designs, ideas and component parameters (e.g. battery capacities &
motor efficiencies) with everyone who asked (and some who did not). I have
also helped my competitors prepare their vehicles before races and repair
them during races.
John also said, "To Dave Cloud, I simply say, show up with a steel bodied
street legal car, one that isn't mutilated and totally dysfunctional, run it
at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave, bring it on!"
I would have to spend between $10K & $20K to accomplish this goal and that's
more than I can afford right now. I hope to prove my point about voltage by
using either a 96V or 108V system in my dragster that will have faster ETs
than many higher voltage vehicles in the same class.
I don't have the time to engage in on-going debate over my ideas so I won't
continue posting. I am much happier in my shop trying to further develop
electric vehicles in my own way.
Yours Truly,
Dave Cloud
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
425 788 9293
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:31 PM 3/5/05 -0600, you wrote:
Currently, are the 8" and 9" DC motors used in forklifts? Is that
their intended and purpose built application?
The Advanced DC 8" and 9" motors are built specifically for electric
vehicles. They also make other motors of that size for other applications,
but they redesigned these motors based on feedback from EV parts suppliers
like us.
Like for example, is there some factory somewhere, right now, at this
minute; where people are building and assembling brand new AC motors
and controllers? Who is currently making use of these and what are
they using them for? (non EV use)
Solectria (recently merged with Azure Dynamics of Canada) is currently
building new AC motors and controller specifically for EVs.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Battery Gurus,
I am about to ship my two elec-traks overseas and it looks like
I can't ship them with the flooded batteries in. It seems I now
have two options
1) remove the acid and ship them dry. Then purchase new sulfuric acid
upon arrival. Questions here
1) should I remove the acid when they are fully discharged (so how many
volts/cell?) or when they are fully charged?
2) what to do with the old acid, where to bring it, in what container to
store it?
2) sell the batteries. In that case I have a set of six brand new (not a
single cycle)
DEKA 215 Ah golf cart batts for sale in SW Virginia and a set of six used
Trojan T105 with plenty of life left (just moved and spread 10 tons of
gravel
with them on a single charge and they were still going strong)
Any advice? Golf cart batteries are 2x the price in Europe than here. Thanks
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if its a boat shipment, i would say ship them indicating they are AGM
batteries...
ok, otherwise ask at deka and trojan the best way to make such operation, i
find it to simple to be exact (remove acid then refill...)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:40 PM
Subject: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
>
> Hi Battery Gurus,
>
> I am about to ship my two elec-traks overseas and it looks like
> I can't ship them with the flooded batteries in. It seems I now
> have two options
>
> 1) remove the acid and ship them dry. Then purchase new sulfuric acid
> upon arrival. Questions here
> 1) should I remove the acid when they are fully discharged (so how many
> volts/cell?) or when they are fully charged?
> 2) what to do with the old acid, where to bring it, in what container to
> store it?
>
> 2) sell the batteries. In that case I have a set of six brand new (not a
> single cycle)
> DEKA 215 Ah golf cart batts for sale in SW Virginia and a set of six
used
> Trojan T105 with plenty of life left (just moved and spread 10 tons of
> gravel
> with them on a single charge and they were still going strong)
>
> Any advice? Golf cart batteries are 2x the price in Europe than here.
Thanks
>
> Markus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Cloud said: "Certainly, the performance history in voltage division
reflects lower ETs with higher voltage. I would contend that the vehicles in
higher voltage divisions also have more monetary value as described above.
David, I couldn't agree more with this statement and it is so much more
evident in gas racing than electric where the price spread is enormous. The
cars that get all the press, TV and sponsorship are sub four second rails
and "Funny Cars". This is just the way it is. People don't want to come to
an event to see sub twenty second lead sleds. In order to gain the respect
of the gas crowd we have to go head to head with them. Although I think it
is great to see what people can put together on a shoestring I don't think
it does that much for the acceptance of EVs. People are going to judge them
by their appearance and how quick they are. It's just the way it is. I
didn't create this culture, I just wish to change it and I believe this is
the intention of NEDRA as well.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Virtual Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
John Wayland must not have read my last post. One would always have the
choice to register in the unclaimable division which means their vehicle
could never be claimed under any circumstances.
If you choose to enter in the $100K and your vehicle is claimed, this would
not be a "hostile take-over". I would consider it a reward for all the long
hours, hard work, dedication and creativity it took to build the vehicle.
Take the $100K, quit your job and build a new and better EV for the next
year.
The rest of the divisions are most about providing a conduit to supply NEDRA
with new members. It's not about the existing NEDRA members. We are already
in the game, we have the passion. It's not even about money. It's just
about using money to keep the playing field even to create closer
competition and to hold the cost down for low budget teams.
I could be wrong about this and I understand if people disagree. It was
just an idea that I thought would help bring in new NEDRA members. I
absolutely did not mean to offend anyone.
When I said that what makes a vehicle go faster is more money not more
voltage, what I really meant was money is a better basis than voltage for
dividing classes. By money I mean the total worth of the vehicle which,
obviously, includes all the hours of labor, price of parts, and value of
sponsorship. How these things are all utilized by the builder's CREATIVITY
and INGENUITY all determine the ultimate performance of the vehicle.
Certainly, the performance history in voltage division reflects lower ETs
with higher voltage. I would contend that the vehicles in higher voltage
divisions also have more monetary value as described above.
My objection to using voltage as the basis for divisions precedes the
existence of NEDRA. Even when I was racing electric boats, I realized that
higher voltage did not necessarily result in higher speeds. I could spend
less money and go faster with less voltage and more amps.
I realize I am a very competitve person, but I also care about the growth
and expansion of EVs for both competition and street use. I have converted
more than 2 dozen street cars for practical transportation.
I have just never liked perpetuating the myth that dangerously high voltage
is the only answer to high powered EVs since I believe that there are better
lower voltage/lower cost solutions.
John Wayland wrote "It's also irritating when the same people who want to
change rules so that individuals can 'win', are often the same ones who are
secretive about their designs, secretive about what
worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and
doing that."
I sure hope John was not talking about me. I have built 34 electric race
vehicles and raced in well over 100 EV events. I have always been open with
all my designs, ideas and component parameters (e.g. battery capacities &
motor efficiencies) with everyone who asked (and some who did not). I have
also helped my competitors prepare their vehicles before races and repair
them during races.
John also said, "To Dave Cloud, I simply say, show up with a steel bodied
street legal car, one that isn't mutilated and totally dysfunctional, run it
at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave, bring it on!"
I would have to spend between $10K & $20K to accomplish this goal and that's
more than I can afford right now. I hope to prove my point about voltage by
using either a 96V or 108V system in my dragster that will have faster ETs
than many higher voltage vehicles in the same class.
I don't have the time to engage in on-going debate over my ideas so I won't
continue posting. I am much happier in my shop trying to further develop
electric vehicles in my own way.
Yours Truly,
Dave Cloud
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
425 788 9293
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm only getting 200A at full throttle from my Curtis 1231C-8601 to the
motor on my 1981 Jet Electrica. I've tried all the tests in the Curtis
manual and everything checks out OK. I am considering wiring the
contactor directly to the motor and closing the contactor momentarily to
see how many amps I get with the controller out of the loop. Are there
any potential problems in doing this?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a solution for you, but if you *DO* decide to sell them,
I'm in NC and I need new bats for my ET-12M and my golf cart, so I'm
interested.
James
On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 14:40, Markus L wrote:
> Hi Battery Gurus,
>
> I am about to ship my two elec-traks overseas and it looks like
> I can't ship them with the flooded batteries in. It seems I now
> have two options
>
> 1) remove the acid and ship them dry. Then purchase new sulfuric acid
> upon arrival. Questions here
> 1) should I remove the acid when they are fully discharged (so how many
> volts/cell?) or when they are fully charged?
> 2) what to do with the old acid, where to bring it, in what container to
> store it?
>
> 2) sell the batteries. In that case I have a set of six brand new (not a
> single cycle)
> DEKA 215 Ah golf cart batts for sale in SW Virginia and a set of six used
> Trojan T105 with plenty of life left (just moved and spread 10 tons of
> gravel
> with them on a single charge and they were still going strong)
>
> Any advice? Golf cart batteries are 2x the price in Europe than here. Thanks
>
> Markus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops...brain freeze....I wasn't consistent with variable labels.
Here's the corrected consistent labeling:
log(capacity) = n * log(amps) + k
or,
capacity = 10^(n * log(amps) + k )
where n ~ - .046
k ~ 0.2
> log(capacity) = m * log(amps) + n
>
> or,
>
> capacity = 10^(m * log(amps) + n)
>
> where n ~ - .046
> k ~ 0.2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please reply OFF-LIST if you would be interested in purchasing some never-
used military surplus BB-600 NiCad cells.
These are manufactured by Saft. They are flooded 34ah aircraft starting
battery individual cells.
3.3 lbs
1.2 volts
34 ah
772 amps discharge rate
How about a buck a cell, plus shipping, initial offering.
Reply off list.
-
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
It kills me that I have to plug-in my car to keep it
warm, when I could be using that energy to charge the
batteries.
1-Has anyone converted either an AWD or 4wd vehicle to
electric?
2- does anyone have contact info for EA
JDM or EVCC adapter plates?
3-Are there cheaper ways to convert a car?
I don't think I need more than 35-45mph and a 30ish
range, perhaps even less range since we got 120v
plugins all over my city (fairbanks, ak)
Thanks
Mike
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
did you catch that:
The new ICE-S is an experimental high-speed train of the Deutsche Bahn AG,
Siemens and Adtranz. It consists of two motor units (derived from the ICE 2)
and three coaches with test equipment. The train, which has a power rating
of 14000 kW (2x 5000 kW (motor units) + 2000 kW (motor bogies of coaches))
at the moment, will be used to test new components for the forthcoming ICE
3. Although the coaches are carried out for 330 km/h, it's planned to attain
a top speed of 440 km/h (which would be a new record for German trains) .
The main visible differences to normal ICE 2 trainsets are the special
design and the three pantographs of the coaches.
The power rating is pretty amazing. OTOH, I just learned that the
EarthSimulator in Japan, which was the worlds fastest computer up until last
summer (now number 3), consumes 13000 kW! Our own supercomputer at Virginia
Tech (now 7th fastest computer in the world) consumes a mere 350 kW. Still a
lot of heat to take care of.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:30 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Fw: Railroad - or roller coaster?
>
>
>
> Hi All;
>
> More cool RR stuff, electric, of course!
> Subject: Railroad - or roller coaster?
>
>
> > Pic from the German "ICE train" attached.
> >
> > Also, how'd you like to work in _this_ engine compartment?
> > (check the link):
> >
> <http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/ca
b%2Binterior/I
CE3_Lounge_NBS.jpg>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
YEEEAAAHHHAA! It MUST bew an optical disallusion. on a rainy day it would
be too slick getting UP there, but a hoot coming down, though!Obviously they
don't run 200 car coal trains there!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought that the BB600 Nicad cells were manufactured by Marathon, not Saft.
Saft makes Nicad cells and batteries that have higher energy density, but
nowhere near the power density of the sintered-plate BB600s.
On the other hand, I've heard that BB600 is actually a military
designation, and not the real product name for the Marathon cells (which I
think is something like "H-120" or similar) ... Are you saying that Saft
has a sintered-plate cell product that is identical (i.e. 2000+ amps,
etc)?
--chris
Tim Humphrey said:
> Please reply OFF-LIST if you would be interested in purchasing some never-
> used military surplus BB-600 NiCad cells.
>
> These are manufactured by Saft. They are flooded 34ah aircraft starting
> battery individual cells.
>
>
> 3.3 lbs
> 1.2 volts
> 34 ah
> 772 amps discharge rate
>
>
> How about a buck a cell, plus shipping, initial offering.
>
> Reply off list.
>
>
> -
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
> Ford
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Taylor-Dunn control on my Club Car golf cart.
I created a circuit to convert the typical 0-5k ohm
pot to the 6-10Vdc that this oddball control requires
as an input.
I forwarded the file to Mike Chancey so he can post it
in the technical section at www.austinev.org
Rod
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Just to say: Alltrax serie controllers have a Taylor
> Dunn parameter for
> their controller (they indicate something about 6 to
> 10V command signal)
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules
�lectriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:21 AM
> Subject: 0-10V controller input?
>
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Was just trying to get my new Taylor Dunn cart
> operational. Seemed the
> controller was toast. Turned on once, wouldn't turn
> off, then died for
> good. Pulled out another Curtis out of an abandoned
> project. Mounting
> pattern the same, wiring the same, except for the
> throttle input. Typical
> KSI input terminal. But the Taylor Dunn has only 1
> input terminal for speed
> control. The replacement is a 0-5K. The input to
> the Taylor Dunn varies
> from 0-10Volts when the pedal is pressed. Pulling
> apart the pedal reveals
> some type of fancy pickup, either inductive or hall
> effect? Looks like a
> really nice setup, would be nice to keep instead of
> hooking on a pot.
> > So is there a simple way to interface this high
> end throttle with this low
> end Curtis???
> >
> >
> > Thanks folks,
> >
> > Darin Gilbert
>
>
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wilde Evolutions converted an old-school Land Rover to electric power.
I don't know the exact story, but part or all of W.E. transformed
itself into EVParts.com.
The two downsides to AWD vehicles are additional driveline losses and
additional weight (and in some cases, less room for batteries). But it
can definitely be done.
The trouble I think you might run into is that standard EV batteries
(lead-acid) don't work very well in cold weather. So you're looking at
either battery heaters or more exotic chemistries (I'm not sure which
ones are cold-weather compatible, but I'd look at NiMH and LiIon).
Googling for "Electric Vehicle Custom Conversions" (what EVCC stands
for) brings up the following:
Electric Vehicle Custom Conversions Larry Foster (818) 913-8579
HTH,
-Frank
On Mar 7, 2005, at 12:27, mike golub wrote:
Hello
It kills me that I have to plug-in my car to keep it
warm, when I could be using that energy to charge the
batteries.
1-Has anyone converted either an AWD or 4wd vehicle to
electric?
2- does anyone have contact info for EA
JDM or EVCC adapter plates?
3-Are there cheaper ways to convert a car?
I don't think I need more than 35-45mph and a 30ish
range, perhaps even less range since we got 120v
plugins all over my city (fairbanks, ak)
Thanks
Mike
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Maston wrote:
> I'm only getting 200A at full throttle from my Curtis 1231C-8601
> to the motor on my 1981 Jet Electrica.
Where are you measuring current -- battery, or motor? And how are you
measuring it? Could your meter be wrong?
First, I'd see if the potbox is actually calling for full throttle.
Measure its resistance; it should change from 0 ohms to 5k ohms as the
throttle is moved from fully released (off) to fully depressed (full
power. The controller actually starts turning on at around 300 ohms, and
is fully on over 4400 ohms.
Second, there is a current limit adjustment pot hidden behind one of the
screws on the side of the case. It might be cranked all the way down,
and so be limiting your current.
Next, measure the actual voltage that you are getting across your motor
at full throttle. You'll have to use a good quality meter for this, as
the voltage is very noisy! When the motor is a high rpm and the throttle
is floored, you should see essentially full pack voltage (minus no more
than 1-2 volts).
Finally, how is your motor geared? If geared to force motor rpm too low,
then the controller never comes out of current limit. You may have 200
amps from the battery, but are delivering 400-500 amps to the motor (at
reduced voltage). If this is the problem, shift or change your gear
ratio to let the motor spin up faster.
> I am considering wiring the contactor directly to the motor and
> closing the contactor momentarily to see how many amps I get with
> the controller out of the loop. Are there any potential problems
> in doing this?
LOTS of potential problems! The current won't be limited. If you close
that contactor with the motor stopped or at low rpm, it will draw some
frightening current (it easily could exceed 1000 amps). This can blow
fuses, weld contactors, rip out the motor coupling, break something in
the drive train, or overspeed the motor and destroy it. If the
controller is still in the circuit and you open that bypass contactor
when the motor is 500+amps, it can destroy the freewheel diodes in the
controller.
However, this is what is done in a contactor controller, and things
survive. The difference is that a contactor controller brings the motor
up to speed in steps, so you don't hit it with full voltage until it is
turning fast enough so the peak current won't be high enough to break
anything.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
