EV Digest 4162
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) lithium titanate anode
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 4 wd at?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EV1 Vigil - More Big Wig GM Contact Info . . . Keep the calls
coming
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Introduction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV Global Bike Dealer Inventory Liquidation
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 4 wd at?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 4 wd at?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 4 wd at?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 4 wd at?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Idea for generic adapter kit
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: (Flooded) battery shipping advice sought
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Was: E-meter, now Re: Cheap voltmeter & charge voltage=undercharged batts.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Introduction
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Contactor Straight to Motor Test OK?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Introduction
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: lithium titanate anode
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Introduction
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Sail-road EV hybrids. Cheap Cross country traveling, was Re: Introduction
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Another story about some promising new battery technology-
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7081
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
Let's take a look at some published Kokam data on their other Li-Poly
batteries. At http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
under SLB603870H, there is a zip file that charts information for their
high
capacity 1.5 amp-hr cell used in R/C planes.
The information is in terms of capacity but we can translate it. Time X
current = amp-hrs
If .5 C provides 1.6 amp-hrs, = .75 amps for 128 minutes.
If 3 C provides 1.49 amp-hrs, = 4.5 amps for 19.9 minutes.
If 5 C provides 1.44 amp-hrs, = 7.5 amps for 11.5 minutes.
If 7 C provides 1.36 amp-hrs, = 10.5 amps for 7.8 minutes.
If 10 C provides .99 amp-hrs, = 15 amps for 4.0 minutes.
I think the difference in Ah capacity that you see here at various
rates is simply due to the ammount of voltage sag at those rates
and a fixed cut off voltage that ends of the tests.
My cycler stops when 3.0vpc is reached. So...
at 0.5C there is very little voltage sag, you get the full capacity.
at 1.0C there is slightly more sag, and the discharge ends sooner.
at 2.0C there is even more sag, and thus less "aparent capacity"...
But, if you were to re-discharge the 2.0C test at 0.5C you would
most likely end up with the same total capacity taken from the cell.
eg. using the numbers from above...
If you run the 10C discharge, with lots of sag, you get 0.99Ah out.
Now if you were to continue to discharge at 7C you get another 0.37Ah.
Again at 5C=0.08Ah, Again at 3C=0.05Ah, One last time at .5C=0.11Ah.
Add them all up, 0.99+0.37+0.08+0.05+0.11 and you get Whala! 1.6Ah!
So there isn't any Puckert's effect, only various sag levels which
make the test end at various points below the full capacity.
Isn't Lithium Great!!! 1Ah actually means 1Ah! Very Nice.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am just about to start converting an AUDI 90 Quattro.
Mike G.
mike golub wrote:
Hello
It kills me that I have to plug-in my car to keep it
warm, when I could be using that energy to charge the
batteries.
1-Has anyone converted either an AWD or 4wd vehicle to
electric?
2- does anyone have contact info for EA
JDM or EVCC adapter plates?
3-Are there cheaper ways to convert a car?
I don't think I need more than 35-45mph and a 30ish
range, perhaps even less range since we got 120v
plugins all over my city (fairbanks, ak)
Thanks
Mike
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sure wish the E-Tek were made that way,
It's got 8 brushes, 4 pairs, Imagine all the
Series, Series/Parallel, Parallel switching
modes you could play with in a single motor!
L8r
Ryan
Michael Shipway wrote:
I just encountered a new thing. A small (2 hp) DC permanent
magnet(field) motor with 4 power leads, 2 red and 2 black.
I determined that each lead connected to only one of the 4 brushs, with
no internal connections between opposing brushs.
Connecting both reds to plus and both backs to minus makes the motor
spin in the direction expected, as does connecting one of each.
Question is, why are the 4 leads instead of 2?
Under what circumstances would you want to connect it differently?
Only thing I can think of is if you connect the inside red and black
together and outside red to plus, outside black to minus, you'd be
putting the armature in series with itself.
I was unwilling to try this without drawing it on paper first, or better
yet asking the list.
Mike Shipway
Puzzled...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I am happy to announce that my Jeep EV is now powered by a Zilla 1K
motor controller! This motor controller upgrade was prompted by the poor
performance I was getting out of my Jeep. (As an after-thought, I've
learned now that 600 amps is NOT sufficient for a 4500+ lb Jeep. (Too
bad my parts supplier didn't know this before he sold me a controller)).
It seems the Raptor 600 controller I was using just wasn't powerful
enough to push this heavy vehicle around with any power. True, the Zilla
1K upgrade only gives me at best 400 more amps to work with, but this
has proved to be a big help! This is even despite the fact that I am
limiting the Zilla by setting the maximum battery amps to 400 amps (and
the motor amps are set at max to 1000 amps of course). I've done this
because I have flooded batteries and want to avoid blowing them up
(among other things). Still, even with the battery amps set low, the
Zilla makes the Jeep pull hard. It has finally brought my Jeep out of
the "will this little Jeep that could make it up the hill" stage to
being an EV with solid, reasonable performance! I guess the best
comparison for the performance is that my Jeep now feels like a stock
Cherokee with a 6- cylinder engine, except with more low end torque ;-).
Seeing as how my Cherokee weighs 1200+ lbs more than a stock Cherokee, I
think this performance is just fine. Put shortly, the Zilla really rocks!
There are pictures of the Zilla 1K and potbox installation here:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery5_1.php
Now, on to a problem which has surfaced:
Since I installed my Zilla, my DC/DC converter has begun blowing its
input fuse. I own a DCP DC/DC converter. Basically, it appears the DC/DC
converter works fine when the Jeep is off. However, when I turn on the
Jeep (by taking the ignition switch to the start position to activate
the Zilla), the DC/DC converter's input fuse would blow within a minute
or two. This appears to be a repeatable occurrence.
After blowing the fuse three times, and getting sick of removing the
DC/DC from the Jeep so I could take the cover off and replace the fuse,
I installed a larger 30 amp fuse in the holder. I did, however, keep a
10 amp fuse installed in the main B+ line to the DC/DC, so it is still
adequately protected. Well guess what? I went for a drive tonight and
the DC/DC blew the external 10 amp fuse a few minutes into the drive.
What gives? I never had the DC/DC converter blow its input fuse until I
installed the Zilla in the Jeep. I am not trying to blame the Zilla for
anything, just pointing out that connection. Also, If you are thinking
about now that this problem sounds familiar, it is because Mark Farver
was/is? having the exact same problems with his DCP DC/DC converter
which is also installed in a car with a Zilla 1K.
Any ideas?
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan said:
> I sure wish the E-Tek were made that way,
> It's got 8 brushes, 4 pairs, Imagine all the
> Series, Series/Parallel, Parallel switching
> modes you could play with in a single motor!
And you could be the first.
How difficult would it be to separate the brush leads, add more terminals
and go gonzo?
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone for your efforts in contacting GM about destroying the last
78 EV-1s.
We have more contact information listed below.
>From what we can tell GM has been caught off guard by all the messages
getting through, both in their Detroit and Washington DC offices.
Apparently Mr. Lutz has asked his assistants to stop forwarding calls to him
concerning the EV-1. This is a result of our phone-in efforts. But there are
more numbers we can call.
We can also be creative and also fax and write.
Richard Wagoner
President and CEO
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Mail Call 482-C39-B40
Detroit, MI 48265
Phone: (313) 556-5000
Fax: (517) 272-3709
Mr. Rober Lutz
Vice Chairman
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Mail Call 482-C39-B40
Detroit, MI 48265
Phone: (313) 556-5000
Fax: (517) 272-3709
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jill Banaszanski
Brand Analyst, EV1, S-10 EV, NEV
1996 Technology Drive
Troy, MI 48007-7083
Phone: (248) 680-5509
Fax: (248) 680-5600
Chris Preuss
Director of GM Communications, Washington DC.
Phone: (202) 775-5008
Cell: 202-329-7011
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dave Barthmuss
GM Spokesman (works for Chris Preuss)
(202) 775-5008
(313) 665-9036
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks everyone!!
Chip Gribben
Save the EV1
http://www.saveev1.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi, I am David Marks I applied for and recieved a listing to recieve and
> exchange information concerning the design and various features required
> to produce a marketable Electrical Engined Vehical. At present we are
> concentrating on methods to increase the range by supplemental means such
> as a Turbogenerater harvesting the wind flow.
Hi David.
Depending on what you mean by the above statement, your goals are either
attainable or impossible.
If, by harvesting the wind flow, you intend to set up a wind turbine at a
fixed location to charge the EV. This is a very attainable goal
(depending on average winds at your location)
If you mean a portable wind turbine that can be errected while the vehicle
is parked, the results will most likely be marginable at best. I would
think that any kind of turbine that could be errected simply and safely
would be fairly small and close to the ground, this combination generally
yields very little energy unless you have very high winds.
If your intention is to mount the wind turbine on the vehicle and harvest
energy while driving, it won't work...ever!
This violates the laws of physics, specifically the laws of thermodynamics.
Wind turbines harvest energy from the wind by creating drag. The more
energy they harvest, the more drag they create.
If you mounted a turbine on a car and drove it down the road, the extra
energy required to overcome the added drag would be far in excess of the
energy produced by the turbine. You would end up running out of energy
faster than you would WITHOUT the turbine.
Note: the same thing applies (for the most part) to connecting generators
to the wheels. Though this idea does have some merit when you use the
generators as brakes to slow the vehicle down, and in the process return a
small amount of energy to the batteries. This is called regenerative
braking and, while a worthy goal, is generally diffacult to implement
successfully without using somewhat uncommon motor/controllers. Your best
bet is AC drive systems, though shunt fed and permanent magnet DC motors
also will work with appropriate controllers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
My purpose in posting this is simply to make this deal available to EV
Listers.
It was posted on the V is for Voltage forums and I have not seen this info
here.
Cloud Electric was considering purchase of this entire inventory, but we
believe our resources are best used in other areas at this time.
If you are into the EV Global bikes as I am, this would be a great start on
a serious collection. (the cranberry red metallic 24V first edition is a
prime item)
Some of the mini-ebikes listed here have already been sold (I got one), and
the owner is into doing a package deal.
Or, you can buy them a piece at a time.
If I had the spare change to throw around, I would have bought the "Police
Edition" in a heartbeat, hard to get and ebayable big time. :^D
Enjoy Looking!
The page is called "Cary's Yard Sale"-
http://www.brendamake.com/cary/
There is a list of additional components included that are not listed on the
yard sale page.
I would be happy to forward that list on to any interested folks. Let me
know off-list.
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1-Has anyone converted either an AWD or 4wd vehicle to
> electric?
Sure, the Wilde bunch converted a land rover.
http://www.evparts.com
> 3-Are there cheaper ways to convert a car?
Probably the cheapest way is to buy a vehicle that has already been
converted. Even if you don't want that particular vehicle, they usually
sell for less than the parts. Generally with a disclaimer that reads
"Needs new batteries".
FWIW I've often seen complete EVs going for $2,000 - $3,000. That's may
1/3-1/2 the cost of the parts (not counting batteries). Occasionally I've
seen them go for less than $2,000
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Yes, it does get cold here, but not for long, and then
> in the summer we've got sun all the time!
>
> So the range of the batteries would be hurt by the
> cold. I was thinking I'd still be ahead if I could
> use the PbA batteries. I could leave the gas tank
> attached, and run a webasto heater. Also several
> inches of foam insulation might help.
>
THe charging and discharging process generates heat also. With a couple
inches of foam and daily driving (charge & discharge) you might not need
any other heating.
FWIW this has worked for me with 1" of styrofoam and temperatures in the
mid 30s
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Certainly, the performance history in voltage division reflects lower ETs
with higher voltage. I would contend that the vehicles in higher voltage
divisions also have more monetary value as described above.
My objection to using voltage as the basis for divisions precedes the
existence of NEDRA. Even when I was racing electric boats, I realized
that higher voltage did not necessarily result in higher speeds. I could
spend less money and go faster with less voltage and more amps.
Boat races are not drag races. It is nearly impossible to go
faster with less money and lower voltage in drag racing.
A boat race involves constant HP for many minutes. A drag race
involves increasing HP over mere seconds. I doubt if you could use more
than 400 W/kg from a battery pack in a boat race. I used about 4,000 W/kg
to set my drag racing records. The peak HP on the bike was about 350 HP
with a 135 pound battery pack. What was the battery weight and peak HP on
your record-setting boat?
I realize I am a very competitve person, but I also care about the growth
and expansion of EVs for both competition and street use. I have
converted more than 2 dozen street cars for practical transportation.
I have just never liked perpetuating the myth that dangerously high
voltage is the only answer to high powered EVs since I believe that there
are better lower voltage/lower cost solutions.
Then a claiming race would suit you well.
John Wayland wrote "It's also irritating when the same people who want to
change rules so that individuals can 'win', are often the same ones who
are secretive about their designs, secretive about what
worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and
doing that."
It is important to note that I am not suggesting a rule change.
I'm just suggesting an interesting alternative to bracket racing and class
racing. Any car that can pass the NHRA Bracket racing safety rules could
choose to compete with others in this manner. Any group of folks that
wanted to get together at a test and tune could compete in this way if they
wanted to. You could even show up at a NEDRA event, compete in the normal
class racing, and simultaneously claim race with your pals. Just put a "For
Sale $XXX dollars" sign on your car. A bit like "racing for pinks" but more
fun.
John also said, "To Dave Cloud, I simply say, show up with a steel bodied
street legal car, one that isn't mutilated and totally dysfunctional, run
it at 72 volts, and run 12's....come on Dave, bring it on!"
I would have to spend between $10K & $20K to accomplish this goal and
that's more than I can afford right now. I hope to prove my point about
voltage by using either a 96V or 108V system in my dragster that will have
faster ETs than many higher voltage vehicles in the same class.
Tough to do on the drag strip, but possible if you work at it hard
enough. If you go to higher voltage with the same effort, however, you will
set quicker records.
On the drag strip, you need to develop serious torque off the
line, and then develop serious HP at the end of the strip, when the motor
is spinning fast. The most lightweight way to do this is with no
transmission and plenty of voltage. The physics of the motor pretty much
dictate the need for high voltage at the end of the strip if you want to
get big torque for the whole length of the strip.
In theory, one could build a buck/boost controller and feed it
with a modest voltage pack. This would add weight, reduce efficiency, and
would take a bunch of money. (The same thing goes for a transmission.) It
also wouldn't beat the otherwise equal vehicle that simply used more
battery voltage.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
> It kills me that I have to plug-in my car to keep it
> warm, when I could be using that energy to charge the
> batteries.
I know the feeling! I live in balmy Minnesota, which has similar
weather.
We too have free 120vac outlets all over the place (intended for engine
block heaters, of course).
> 1-Has anyone converted either an AWD or 4wd vehicle to
> electric?
Sure, it's been done. Roderick Wilde has a pretty nice Land Rover EV.
Chevy S10s, Blazers, Ford Rangers, and other light trucks have
frequently been converted into EVs, and 4WD is pretty common on them.
But as a rule, most people convert 2WD instead of 4WD vehicles into EVs
to save energy.
> 3-Are there cheaper ways to convert a car?
> I don't think I need more than 35-45mph and a 30ish
> range, perhaps even less range since we got 120v
> plugins all over my city (fairbanks, ak)
There have recently been some discussions along these lines on the EV
list. Yes, you *can* do an inexpensive conversion if your performance
expectations are lower, and you are willing to put more time into making
the parts or finding used/surplus parts instead of buying them all new.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff asked:
> I think that Peukerts equation is specific to lead acid batteries.
Well... he formulated it over 100 years ago, when there *were* no
nicads, nickel-iron, or other rechargeable batteries.
Peukert's equation plots as a straight line on log graph paper (one
linear scale, one logarithmic). When you plot real data from real
battery tests, it also turns out to be (almost) a straight line on this
graph paper. Thus, Peukert wrote his equation to model the behavior he
found in real batteries.
Lead-acids fit Peukert's equation pretty well. Other types not so well,
though still well enough so that Peukert's equation is a better fit than
assuming no Peukert effect at all (i.e. no change in amphour capacity
regardless of the discharge current).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
> So the range of the batteries would be hurt by the
> cold. I was thinking I'd still be ahead if I could
> use the PbA batteries. I could leave the gas tank
> attached, and run a webasto heater. Also several
> inches of foam insulation might help.
The range is only hurt if you let the batteries get cold. Standard
practice is to put the batteries in an insulated enclosure. If you drive
more or less every day, just the waste heat from driving and charging
will keep them warm. If you don't drive much, then a small electric
heater inside the battery box does the trick.
All it takes is 1" or so of styrafoam for insulation, and a heater that
delivers 10-20 watts per battery. The cost of this electricity is
negligible compared to what an engine block heater needs.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of us have to choose between "cheaper" and "continuing to drive an
ICE." For my first EV, I will likely be building a low-range EV out of
something that's not so flashy that it will get stolen. That's because it
will fulfill an important purpose: a low mileage station car--something
where an ICE is at its worst, pollution-wise and cost-wise. In that case,
I'll pretty much convert whatever is... well, "cheaper." Once I have that
proof of concept for the wife, better EV's will follow.
Besides, I drive past Fresno on the way to Manteca a few times a year, so
I can save on shipping costs as well. :-)
Tim
-----
> > Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 08:21:11 -0800
> From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Idea for generic adapter kit
>
> I hate the word cheaper, for some people it is kinda dimensionless.
> Lets say better value.
> I think makeing existing adapters is a secondary goal, I want to grow
> our options.
>
> Some of our(EV Proponents) customer base may be like me. I own 2 cars
> over 130,000 miles and am tired of oil changes and smog and want to help
> the environment and don't see OEM's changing unless we force them, Id
> rather compete with them. I live in a valley and have breathing
> difficulties. I live in Fresno but cant get the image on MetricMind's
> site out of my head.
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > 2) what to do with the old acid, where to bring
> it, in what container to
> > store it?
> >
You can store it in glass (pickle jar) containers.
Companies that sell our school acid, and they are
non-reactive through 18N (called "syrup"). I forget
the molarity of car batteries!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well in that case, the issue is a $15 Gardner-Bender
Voltmeter. It is accurate when used on the batteries,
but when used on the batteries _on charge_ it
_definitely_ disagrees. Such as 20 volts too low when
the batts are first plugged in, and 20 volts too low
when the batteries are on gassing voltage (Supposed to
be 186-189).
No, I won't purchase a scope, but definitely WILL
take back the dang meter!
g-night for now,
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yea all my meters and E-meters are within 1/2 a volt
> charging and
> discharging.
> I have had no real issues with not trusting a
> E-meter.
> I have had some really noisey chargers and the
> E-meters hold up very well.
> The chargers are darn near silent...compared to
> the way the BETAs
> radiated.
>
> Today's RF night mare is the PWM from a OLD T-Rex
> controller getting into my
> Measurement Computing's PMD-1608FS 16 bit A to D
> module.
> The RPM channel on the Dyno has eaten up few Days
> if tinker time...
> Yesterday We put the Scope on it, and read the PWM
> Frequency and could see
> the turn off spike move as the PWM command was
> changed. No issues seeing the
> PWM percent... then we realized the socpe was not
> hooked up yet!! THAT's
> some RF!. Keep in mind that almost all the time a
> PFC20B right out of
> inventory...read well broken in.. Is keeping the 96
> volts of the carppiest
> Yts I have left topped off. Blip dyno, listen to the
> Iso former moan... Note
> that the Batteries are almost already back up to
> voltage before the motors
> coast down.
> So.. I am battleing RF cross conduction, Ground
> loops, and AC coupled
> noise, and all this then gets dumped into this DELL.
> So.. a screwup on the
> dyno can NUKE my $2500 main PC.
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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Peter VanDerWal wrote [snip]:
A great answer, Peter. I was thinking of replying, but couldn't figure
out what he was asking. David, if you're reading, could you try to
rephrase your request so we can understand it better?
By the way, Peter wrote:
> If your intention is to mount the wind turbine on the vehicle and
> harvest energy while driving, it won't work... ever!
Well, it's not *that* hopeless. For example, sailboats are entirely
wind-powered, and they work reasonably well. However, the size of the
sail (or windmill or other wind-harvesting device) is *huge* compared to
the size of the vehicle. If you expect to drive on ordinary roads in
ordinary traffic, I doubt you could carry a large enough sail or
windmill to do any good.
I think Peter is right; the way to do it is to mount the windmill in
some fixed location (at home on your garage, for example), and use the
power it produces to recharge the EV when it is home.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Patrick Maston wrote:
> Thanks, Lee. My ammeter shunt is in the M- wire to the motor, so I'm
> measuring motor amps. I checked the potbox and it's working normally.
> I did all the diagnostic tests in the Curtis manual and it passed them
> all. Before I installed the controller, I turned the controller
> amperage limit all the way up per the Curtis manual (clockwise all the
> way). The car starts out normally with the part-throttle growl and the
> amps come up as the growl goes away, then it peaks at 200. It doesn't
> matter what gear I'm in or what the motor rpm is, 200 is the limit.
> Acceleration is real slow and it doesn't climb hills well. I guess the
> meter could be wrong - I bought it from Electro Automotive along with
> the shunt - both are new. If the meter is wrong and I'm actually
> getting more amperage than I think, this thing is real DOG - much worse
> that I expected: it's very slow.
Ok, good; we've eliminated a few things.
Have you made any voltage measurements yet? That would be my next step.
If you don't think you have a good enough meter, and want a "low tech"
test, then connect an ordinary 120v light bulb across you motor's
terminals. You can't fool a light bulb with "funny" waveforms and noise.
It's brightness is a very reliable power indicator.
For example, try clipping the light bulb across your battery pack. It
should light up brightly. Now connect it across the motor. At full
throttle, with the motor spun up to a few thousand rpm, the light should
be at the same brightness. This indicates that your controller is coming
full on.
If you've got full voltage but the motor isn't drawing the current,
you've got motor troubles. An open brush pigtail, or brush stuck in its
holder; or loose connection; something like that.
If you aren't getting full voltage out of your controller, then we have
to look for problems with it.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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>> If your intention is to mount the wind turbine on the vehicle and
>> harvest energy while driving, it won't work... ever!
>
> Well, it's not *that* hopeless. For example, sailboats are entirely
> wind-powered, and they work reasonably well.
Hi Lee,
After I sent that, I realized that you would probably correct me on it. :-)
It's true that if you are in a relatively windy area you can harvest some
of the existing wind to propel your vehicle, though generally speaking
this isn't practical for on-the-road vehicles for a number of reasons.
For complete accuracy my statement should have read; "If your intention is
mount a wind turbine on the vehicle to harvest the energy in the
*apparent* wind created by the vehicle's motion, it won't work"
However, I was trying to briefly explain that the idea isn't workable
before he wasted a lot of time and energy on it.
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Roderick Wilde wrote:
> For the record I would like to say that David has always been open with tech
> tricks and has helped many at the tracks. He is very creative and
> knowledgeable and is a great asset to the EV racing community.
> John Wayland wrote "It's also irritating when the same people who want to
> change rules so that individuals can 'win', are often the same ones who are
> secretive about their designs, secretive about what
> worked or what didn't, and run around accusing others of doing this and
> doing that."
>
> I sure hope John was not talking about me.
For the record Dave, no I was not talking about you. Dave is more than ready to
not only
show others his ideas, he's often ready to convince you his are better than
yours :-)
Gotta love him.
See Ya....John Wayland
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Myles Twete wrote:
I sure wish the E-Tek were made that way,
It's got 8 brushes, 4 pairs, Imagine all the
Series, Series/Parallel, Parallel switching
modes you could play with in a single motor!
And you could be the first.
How difficult would it be to separate the brush leads, add more terminals
and go gonzo?
Humm, actually, Didn't Lawrence or someone do just that rescently?
The brush interconnects? got fried, melted, zorched or something.
Anyway, I'm betting that the actual brushes and commutater were
just fine, and melted interconnect material probably produces some
"unwanted" shorts throught the motor.
But should you remove them under say, a more controlled environment.
What would be the result? It's difficult for me to even speculate
as I haven't had the good misforture of exploring that part of the
E-Tek motor. All I know is that there is internal connectivity
between every other brush, via the blown out interconnect I presume.
So, eight brushes, staggered evenly on the com bar, producing four
fields with the same orientation, which shift possition as the com
rotates, right? (so how are the magnets orientated exactly?, anyway)
( I might already be way off base here ? )
So, the interconnects do what? connect these four fields internally,
why? aren't they already all currently in parallel since the brushes
are all tied (alternately) to either the positive or negetive posts?
( See, this is why I think I must be wrong )
So, removing the interconnects should have no effect, correct?
Once the fields were isolated I see no reason why one couldn't
break the current brush connections and reconnect them in various
configurations, all in series, a series pair in parallel, or parallel
in the stock 48v configurations. It I'm close then you would have
yourself a 12-24-48v motor, 18v/rpm,36v/rpm,72v/rpm motor. Although
it might also change current handeling capacity aswell to something
like [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] due to the loss of
brush/com contact.
Properly cooled it might be possible to double the current, and since
the interconnect weakness is gone perhaps it would survive more abuse?
Pinch me and tell me I'm way off base or I'll have to brake an e-tek.
L8r
Ryan
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20,000 cycles! ( What if time!! )
Even 1/10th that at 2,000 Cycles is paradigm shifting news.
Ok, let's ground what happens next with some real life applied Li-ion
experience. I've got an "Old" 9 Lbs 98 cell 10Ah "48v" pack on a
scooter that delivers 10 miles, no Puckert, highly effecient cycles.
But rarely do I go 10 miles on it since it's indoors at work, but
that was when I needed to have that capacity in order to deliver 50A.
Current Polymer can already get pretty close the desired power density.
Using the new Sony (50A) 26650's as a reference (seems honest enough),
8 cells = 74Wh Scooter (2.5 mile range) life=50K miles!! (1mile/Ah)
16 cells = 150Wh Scooter (5.0 mile range) life=100K miles!!( 3 Lbs )
See where this is going! What would you be willing to pay for that?
112 cells= 1kWh ([EMAIL PROTECTED] Motorcycle) 6+ miles=120K miles!
(6miles/kWh)
1120 cells= 10kWh ([EMAIL PROTECTED] Fast Car) 60+miles=1.2 Million Miles!
1.2 Million, then what, 80% capacity? only goes 48 miles, same eff. & kW
( That's 200 kW on tap from a 222 Lbs pack with 10 kWh of capacity. )
Even at a premium of $10/cell (I'm guestimating $6-8 for current 26650)
If current lithium is any indication, that's:
$1200 for 60 (Actual) miles or range (irregardless of lead feet).
.oO( barring high velocity aerodynamic losses, those still apply )
At 20K cycles they will last for 1,200K miles ( a lifetime, plus )
Not only is that 20C+ discharges, but 10C+ charges (6 minutes)
.oO( Rich, you got any 100kW chargers handy? <Grinning> )
.oO( BTW, we'll need the 500kW version for the 300 mile range car )
Cost per mile $0.001, a penny gets you 10 miles, ouch.
Heck, even if it only lasts a tenth of the clame that's 120K miles
and honest to God quick charging ability, from a highly eff chemestry.
Even then you (I) would probably be willing to pay twice my estimate!
L8r
Ryan
ps. Should we check out the patent and discuss bat manufacturing again?
Roy LeMeur wrote:
Another story about some promising new battery technology-
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7081
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dmarks wrote:
Hi, I am David Marks I applied for and recieved a listing to recieve and exchange information concerning the design and various features required to produce a marketable Electrical Engined Vehical. At present we are concentrating on methods to increase the range by supplemental means such as a Turbogenerater harvesting the wind flow. I am a Graduate Marine Enginer Kings Point United States Merchant Marine Academy. Class of '42. I retired in 1987 with 40 years of Pension credits. This includes active duty service in the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Maritime Commision As an Assoc.Proffesser of Engineering and Mathmatics. After WW2 (The Big One) I went to work in the Areo Space industry primarily in the field of Pick up devices such as presure, displacement acceleration and force transducers. During this time I was fortunate to be working for and with men who were in the Manhattan Project. Where the basic knowlege of these products was studied and developed to aid in the develop
ment of a don't stand too close or touch product. I returned to my first love the sea
and seagoing vessels in the mid 60's My experience in Electrical propultion includes
Turbo Electric drive systems. Vessel types such as the T-3 Tanker developed in the
early 40's A>C> 3phase variable frequency drive main drive sychronous direct
coupled electric drive motor. Prime mover a 8500 HP Cross coupled Steam turbine
driving a 3Phase AC Generator through a three step reduction gear. Auxillaries were
powered by 220 volt dc turbogens witch also suplied the Main drive generator
excitation. At present I do consucting and training of key personell for a fish
processing co in Alaska. I became very interested in energy conservation when I
noted the wastfull rutines enforced by FDA and was able to design a waste heat
recovery system that has reduced fuel costs by just over 1/3 34% to be more exact
and am expecting FDA approval this spring. The Fish processor has a converted Diesel
electri
c drive ex Coast Guard Buoy tender Ice breaker in service which requires my
presence to show the engineers how to operate same. The turn over in Engineers
is quite large. Hello and I hope that my input in the EV field earns the help
that I need to achieve an EV milage range of 1000 miles without use of fossle
fuel support.
I'm replying to all (The list and the available senders addresses)
In case you are having difficulties using the list (it's been 2 days),
your post and the replies can be viewed at this web address.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/34851
I would have to agree that on-the-vehicle wind power is probably not
very practical, however there are new battery technologies available.
Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
Kokam - http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery03.html#2
T-Zero - http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_home.htm
There are also some great new advancements being made with Lithium.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/34921
L8r
Ryan
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Hi Lee and All,
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote [snip]:
>
> A great answer, Peter. I was thinking of replying,
> but couldn't figure
> out what he was asking. David, if you're reading,
> could you try to
> rephrase your request so we can understand it
> better?
>
> By the way, Peter wrote:
>
> > If your intention is to mount the wind turbine on
> the vehicle and
> > harvest energy while driving, it won't work...
> ever!
That depends Peter!
If it wasn't that fast, say 20mph top speed and
the turbine was directly coupled to the wheels and the
vehicle had fairly low aero drag it is possible to go
even directly into the wind.
This has been proven in boats and land vehicles
would be no different, probably better. Practical?
Probably not as for intermitant winds, wind shadows in
normal traffic. But on the open road in grasslands,
deserts it could have limited use.
I've personally hit over 36mph in a 60' Cat
during the Trophy De Multicoupe race in Martinque on
British Airways captained by Robert Knox-Johnson and
have followed ice/landboats for yrs so know the power
is there. Boats I've designed and built have hit
30mph.
I've also been able to go 2.5x the speed of the
wind in at the helm of a 30' lightweight, 5,000lb
monohull, the Mega 30 by C+C, sailing right thru the
fleet of top racers flopping around in the chop. Of
course having Peter Barret from North Sails on board
really helped! You have to have a light touch on the
helm to keep it going though. The owners of the
expensive race boats were not happy!!!
A small sailboat like a sq back canoe with 2
wheels in the center and an EV motorized steering
wheel forward or aft and a windsurfer sail could
easily go crosscountry if you were into going at say a
20mph pace recharging say a 30 mile range batt pack
when the winds were up and using it when whens were
light, blocked. With a tent for it for camping, it
would be a great travel, exploring set-up for land and
water that would cost almost nothing as fuel would be
free and camping on the water is too!
>
> Well, it's not *that* hopeless. For example,
> sailboats are entirely
> wind-powered, and they work reasonably well.
> However, the size of the
> sail (or windmill or other wind-harvesting device)
> is *huge* compared to
> the size of the vehicle. If you expect to drive on
Not really as the power of wind goes up the cube of
speed. So using electric to get up to speed, a sail
could be quite small and put out a lot of power.
10-25sq ft would be enough at 60 mph. 10sq ft makes
about 64lbs of thrust at 64 mph.
Probably the most practical would be an arched hard
airfoil like was built in the late 70's by someone I
forget who but was in Pop Sci amoung other media. It
depended on apparent wind shifting forward and
increasing it's apparent windspeed just like Iceboats
do which have hit over 120 mph on windpower alone.
By using EV power with this arched or a small hard
pivoting wingsail automaticly postioned by a trimtab
on it's rear it could help extend the range of an EV a
good amount in open roads like freeways while limiting
tipping problems, with the EV running it between wind
shadows, breaks in the wind.
But not by the amounts he wanted, Probably doubling
range at best in good conditions.
If you had a very aero EV with one of these sails,
Li-ions of 300 mile range on long trips you could get
5-600 mile range if the winds were 10 mph or more. A
lot of if's but interesting.
> ordinary roads in
> ordinary traffic, I doubt you could carry a large
> enough sail or
> windmill to do any good.
>
> I think Peter is right; the way to do it is to mount
> the windmill in
> some fixed location (at home on your garage, for
> example), and use the
> power it produces to recharge the EV when it is
> home.
A great way as windgen E costs can be quite low
but not good for over 100 mile range he wanted.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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