EV Digest 4173
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: wind charger?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: spoon feeding
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: wind charger and BB600's?
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BB600 Purchase
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Sppon Fedding BB600's
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Spoon feeding BB600's.
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: BB600 charging
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: washingtonpost: Fans of GM Electric Car Fight the Crusher
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: wind charger?
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: wind charger?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Rewinding 3 phase AC motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BB600 charging
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: FW: BB600 charging
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 9' ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be possible to have a 48V pack charged by the AIR-X and use the
48 V pack for dump charging the flooded 36 V pack? The totally
discharged 48V pack at 1.75V per cell (42 Volts) is very close to the
totally charged voltage of the 36 V pack at 2.44V per cell
(44V)...floodeds are pretty forgiving.
Lynn
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:31 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: wind charger?
Might not work as the AIR 403 and AIR-X use a MPPT charge controller in
the unit itself. Could get weird if it only sees 36 volts.
Chris
James Jarrett wrote:
> Ok, I need some input from the electronics wizards on the list (Mark
> you
> listening?)
>
> I'm in the design phases of my solar charging rig for my I-5 and golf
> cart. I have just had an opportunity to purchase a 48v air X wind
> turbine.
>
> My property has a lot of wind and this is probably a good idea for me.
> What I'm worried about is using a turbine that is designed to charge a
> 48v system to charge a 36v system. Is there an easy way to do this
> without damaging my batteries?
>
> Thanks
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm planning on having 96 batteries in 4 rows of 24. I've been thinking of
creating a plastic board with 96 nozzles on it that will fit over the cells
with the nozzles reaching down into the cell to the correct level. At
watering time, I'd open all the lids, put the board over top and peer down
into each cell to see if the water level reached the bottom of the nozzle,
then use a syringe to add/remove liquid as necessary.
It's not automatic, but I figure it wouldn't take too long to water them
this way.
Anyone else have any other ideas?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Carl Clifford
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:55 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: spoon feeding
Hi All,
I've been debating picking up some of these BB-600's but can't quite get my
head around the big picture on these batteries. I've been a lurker on the
list for years but never having "done it", my head is just full of
variables. If anyone can ballpark any of the following, or give me an
educated guess, I would appreciate it.
These cells are 1.2 v. Does that mean with a 380v max input controller for
example that I use 380/1.2 = 317 cells or is there a nominal voltage issue?
Somebody said that the Saft watering systems are for modules, not these
cells. Does anyone have a sense of whether they would be adaptable, or
whether a mortal could fashion such a system?
What would be a reasonable ballpark estimate of range with 1000 lbs of these
things in a Passat wagon with a beefy controller and motor? (beefy is the
technical term)
0-60?
Can these handle regen?
Can these handle trickle charging?
What would I need to charge such a string? How cheaply could I do it?
I know there are a lot of assumptions required to make any estimates on this
stuff, but I just need to know what is within the realm of possibility. I
realize these have about the energy density of Lead-Acid, but I'm the type
of guy that runs out of gas a lot, so I need batteries that can take some
abuse and that I can forget to plug in now and then without murdering them.
Thanks in advance,
Carl Clifford
Denver
grinless :-|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Great idea Seth!
Now how do we go about doing that? Does anybody that is knowledgeable about the
system want to step up to the plate? Are they just a simple stamped piece?
Straight and in an S pattern?
What about the watering system? After looking at Safts site
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/wfs_en.pdf the system is just
the cell filling plug and piping (they use silicone).
Or getting a quantity of the celltopper systems
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/celltopper_en.pdf
Also does somebody have some web space where we can put info about the cells so
that we don't keep on asking the same questions over and over again? charging,
watering, containers... etc?
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> P.S. you guys want to have a group buy on cell interconnects, now that
> you can order them in the thousands.
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's interesting that you posted this at this time James.
I was just contemplating offering any remaining BB600's to the A.E. list
for the same deal, for use as a battery bank for Solar | Wind | MicroHydro
applications. I myself will be using some for that purpose.
Anyway, just a thought you might want to consider, I don't have any
interest yet in your area, so there's really no rush as combining shipping
is not yet applicable.
For everyone else.....
There are shipments headed to;
Phoenix AZ,
Austin TX,
Los Angeles CA,
Vancouver WA,
So if you're wondering if there's anyone in your area you can combine
shipping with, these are confirmed area's so far. Tentatively, it looks
like these shipments will be well less than a buck a cell. The bigger the
load, the less the per cell price.
To answer a common question:
These cells have never been used, and were manufactured in 2000.
I'm not trying to get rich on these things, just trying to finance my
Grin. and pass on a good deal.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of James Jarrett
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:54 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: wind charger?
>
> Ok, I need some input from the electronics wizards on the list (Mark you
> listening?)
>
> I'm in the design phases of my solar charging rig for my I-5 and golf
> cart.
> I have just had an opportunity to purchase a 48v air X wind turbine.
>
> My property has a lot of wind and this is probably a good idea for me.
> What I'm worried about is using a turbine that is designed to charge a 48v
> system to charge a 36v system. Is there an easy way to do this without
> damaging my batteries?
>
> Thanks
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dangit, I wish I had the money and storage space to get some of these.
Since the shelf life is so long, I can keep them on hand until the rest
falls into place.
Tim Humphrey wrote:
For those of you that can't get through, or those that are interested and
haven't paid yet....
I have set up a quick and dirty ebay listing
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3880658968
search BB600 if the link doesn't work.
You can use this to reserve and pay for the number of cells you desire.
After all of the orders are in, then we will figure out the best way to
ship them.
There are quite a few people that have expressed interest and are only
about 100 miles from each other, and obviously can save quite a bit on
shipping costs by combining pallets. Each person will have the final say
in how their order is to be shipped, but I will be able to suggest
"partners".
For those that planned to pay via my e-mail instructions, it will save me
a few cents by not using ebay, but ebay will provide a nice "database"
feature for me too, so I guess it's a wash. Use what you're comfortable
with.
I hope I've been able to reply to everyones questions. If not, hit me
again please.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking at about 20 cycles a month of maybe 75% DOD maximum.
Could I get away with undercharging enough to water every 30-45
cycles if I just do an equalizing charge once every two weeks or
once a month? How quickly could these get out of balance enough to
reverse a cell at 75% DOD?
Tim
----------
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:45:11 +0100
>
> men, trust me you are going to be disapointed !
> this cells are not for EV use, their watering can't be centralized and it's
> not something you want to make every week not even every month...
> i have to water 31 cells on the race scooter, hopefuly ultra low servicing
> type cells and i definitely would not consider making this on more and
> standard servicing cells.
>
> yes you can undercharge them to obtain low water consumption but you will
> quickly unbalance the pack and loose range...they need overcharge to be in
> good state.
>
> just my 30ml of demineralized water opinion
>
> Philippe
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Thus, you need an extremely strong set of mounts to resist this
>> torque... But the end bell of an electric motor is not nearly
>> strong enough, except for fairly wimpy low-power EVs. It is only
>> held on with some very long skinny bolts.
Mike Brown wrote:
> These holes were put in the end bells of the ADC motors SPECIFICALLY
> to be used for mounts, because EV suppliers such as ourselves
> requested them. That is what they have been used for, for about 15
> years now. I have never, ever heard of a failure because this piece
> was not strong enough to do the job.
Mike, I believe most of your experience has been with VW Rabbits or
conventional front-engine rear-drive vehicles? I can believe that the
ADC end bell mount is adequate in these cases.
But, the Porsche 914, the Renault LeCar, the old Chevy Corvair, and a
few other vehicles have a different setup that puts considerably more
stress on the motor mount. These vehicles all have transaxles, where the
electric motor, transmission, and differential are all one unit. This
entire assembly reacts to wheel torque as a whole. If you have 100
ft.lbs of torque at the motor, and have a 3:1 first gear and a 4:1
differential, then you have 100x3x4=1200 ft.lbs of torque on this
assembly.
Also, the motor in these vehicles has a front-rear orientation. The
motor sticks way out, putting the motor mounts far out on the end bell.
The torque reaction is trying to push the end bell sideways. This force
has to be handled by 4 long skinny bolts running the length of the
motor. Two of them are basically in compression and aren't helping much.
The other two are in tension, and are doing most of the work.
This situation is quite different from a front-wheel-drive setup with a
left-right engine, like a VW Rabbit and most other modern cars. In these
cars, there are already two tranaxle mounts, one forward, one rear, to
handle most of the wheel reaction torque. The mount at the end of the
electric motor is mainly to support the motor+transaxle assembly from
side-to-side loads, which are *far* less (basically, just a fraction of
the weight of the assembly. Wheel reaction torque *subtracts* from the
dead load due to the weight of the assembly, rather than adding to it.
Likewise, a front-engine, rear-drive vehicle has the the differential
mounted separately from the engine+transmission. Now the motor mounts
don't have to handle wheel torque reaction; they only have to handle
motor+transmission torque reactions. In the example above, 100 ft.lbs at
the motor becomes 100x3=300 ft.lbs with a 3:1 first gear. The motor
mounts thus carry only 1/4th the load. Also, this torque is apply
torsion to the motor's end bell, not a side load. In torsion, all 4 of
the long skinny bolts can help (plus the anti-rotation tabs on the end
bells and outer housing).
I *have* a Renault LeCar EV. It has a wimpy little ADC 6.7" motor, and a
Curtis 1231C controller turned down to 400 amps max. Yet, I *did* break
the motor mount! It is a clamshell mount; basically a top bar that
connects the LeCar's stock ICE motor mounts, with a half-circle band
around the top half of the motor, and a bolted-on half-circle band
around the bottom half of the motor. The torque was so large that it
tore apart the welded seams between the top 2"x0.25" aluminum bar and
the 2"x0.25" top band.
I also have a 1965 Corvair with the turbocharged 180hp engine. In my
younger more-foolish days, I *did* rip out the motor mount from the huge
wheel reaction torque. It was a relatively common problem in
high-powered Corvairs.
I'm an engineer, but not a mechanical engineer. I can't calculate the
exact stress levels, and tell you at what torque the ADC motor's end
bell bolts will stretch or pull out. But I *do* have enough training and
experience to tell you that it will be a *lot* easier to do it in a
Porsche 914, Renault LeCar, or Chevy Corvair than in any other vehicle!
It's a weak point in the design.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm rather interested in electric motorcycles. Seems just 100 of these
would make a nice 120V system @34 Ah, and 350 Lbs.
Not bad for a bike, I think -- any thoughts?
Bryan B wrote:
Hi,
Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for
300 is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the
cost-per-unit should go down.
Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
more of a discount? Any better ideas?
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Gadget,
That works for me. That also takes the pressure off, since if
I picked them up in NorCal, I'd be hand-loading them into
a rented pickup. :-)
I'm not sure how many I'm getting. At least 70, possibly 140.
Tim
---------
> > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:06 -0800 (PST)
> From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let
> me know how many are coming to LA and can get quote.
> I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a
> cell. weekend pick up is no problem as I live in my
> warehouse. I can even store them for a little while if
> that helps anyone.
>
> Gadget
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning on getting a few hundred as soon as I found out if I have
a tax return (today?) I would love to solve the watering issue. It is
gonna be a busy summer (when I am out of school)
Here is a side note:
I work at a plastic injection molding company!
Molds can be made out of alum for low $ and medium scale
production(<100K shots/year) of non-filled plastics(non abrasive).
2 of our machines take a graphite electrode in the shape of the finished
part (same material as brushes) and use a servo to maintain a sparkgap
in a bath of dieltric fluid, the sparks blow away the alum(or steal) in
a controlled manner, Come back in a few hors and you have a mold for the
shape of the graphite electrode. (Creativly called EDM, Eletrical
Discharge Machining)
China is an great option for larger quantities than we need.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent Chris,
You read my mind...
How do the other bb600 bat people feel about this?
Chris, can you put some space that will handle files that we can send you,
upload to the site, and then have them posted so we can all access the info? I
realize there are security problems and if we send them to you, then that could
become a pretty big burden. But as you point out the upside is pretty large, ie
getting Saft to sell us a quantity of cell toppers or watering plugs.
Although I'm a newbie to the EV field, I'd certainly be willing to act as some
sort of a filter for files and such.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:25 AM
Subject: Spoon feeding BB600's.
>
> Perhaps we should set up a seperate list (bb600) to handle this? I'd be
> willing to host it on alembic.crystel.com (my personal Unix systems)
>
> Chris
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
You had a post before saying that the BB-600 are Marathon cells. Are they? We
are under the impression that they are Saft cells. Can you elaborate more on
what makes you think that they are Marathon? Is it just the size?
The Invitation for Bid clearly states SAFT AMERICA INC. P/N 017371-000.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: BB600 charging
> The BB600 manual that I have from Marathon calls for a 21A CC charge until
> all cells reach 1.55V, then a 2-hour topping charge of 8.4A.
>
> I was planning on attaching an Amp-hour counter to the Nicads, and then
> putting back approx. 110% of the Amp-hours used to equalize the cells. So
> if I used 30 Amp-hours, for example, I'd want to put 33 Amp-hours back in.
> If my charger goes to only 18A, then I'd charge at 18A for an hour, followed
> by 8A for 2 hours. Does that sound right, or is there a better way to do
> it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Maki, Garret
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:43 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: BB600 charging
>
> OK, so it looks like a lot of us may be playing with NiCad.
> What are you planning on using for charging? How advanced does the charger
> need to be? I've only been doing this for a few months now so sorry if this
> has already been discussed.
> -Garret in Colorado
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The company says that it cannot sell the cars because it would have
a legal obligation to service them and that it can't provide service
because many suppliers quit making the 2,000 unique parts that went
into the design.
That used to be a pretty good argument, federal law requires
manufacturers to sell service and parts for 10 years past date of
manufacturer. AFAIK the manufacturer's have skirted this law in the
past by simply pricing the parts too high. No part is ever completely
unavailable if you are willing to pay enough (classic car people often
have to completely recreate broken parts).
Plus I doubt that GM's highly paid lawyers couldn't write a sales
contract that absolves GM of responsibilty under the law. Sell the car
for salvage, or experimental surplus, anything but a car.
Also IIRC most EV1 were built in like 94-95, so most of them have
probably already reached the 10 year mark.
At this point GM has destroyed enough of them that the remaining ones,
even in the hands of the public, will never be much of a threat to GM FC
business.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Air 403 does not use anything beyond passive electronics and a
36V model is available, but I really can't recommend it, passive
stall is a very noisy way to control a turbine. The 48V Air-X you
mentioned will not work on a 36V battery pack, the internal
electronics will prevent it from operating at that low of voltage. A
36V Air-X is not going to be built.
Keith
At 9:54 AM -0500 3/10/05, James Jarrett wrote:
Ok, I need some input from the electronics wizards on the list (Mark you
listening?)
I'm in the design phases of my solar charging rig for my I-5 and golf
cart. I have just had an opportunity to purchase a 48v air X wind
turbine.
My property has a lot of wind and this is probably a good idea for me.
What I'm worried about is using a turbine that is designed to charge a
48v system to charge a 36v system. Is there an easy way to do this
without damaging my batteries?
Thanks
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Southwest Wind Power AIR 403 (and AIR-X I presume) manual shows the
following internal regulator "adjustable" limit ranges:
Model Adjustable Voltage Range
12v 13.8v - 17.8v (preset to 14.1v)
24v 27.6v - 35.6v (preset to 28.2v)
36v 41.4v - 53.4v (preset to 42.3v)
48v 55.2v - 71.2v (preset to 56.4v)
These are the MAX regulated outputs for these wind generators.
So, if you have the 48v unit, for example, the voltage at which it will
begin to internally regulate is 55-71v (adjustable by teeny tiny screwdriver
pot via whole in side of the unit).
Not specified is what the minimum voltage is that the 48v AIR needs to see
before its 'smarts' decide to say 'screw it, I'm not gonna work', or
alternatively, how much efficiency, if any, gets traded off if you use it at
a lower output voltage.
The fact is that a depleted 48v pack could easily be as low as 40v or less,
which puts it at the high range of a 36v pack, and well below the charging
voltage of a 36v pack...
In my case, my 36v pack drained down to 18v once while I limped downstream
on 'electrons' to the nearest dock to charge...I don't know for sure, but
I'd suspect that if I had a tailwind and had tilted up my 36v AIR403 at the
time that I would have seen my Air403 very happy to charge the 18v pack.
So, I'd suggest that when you get your 48v pack, just try it with the 36v
battery directly and see what happens. You could also dial the regulator
down to its lowest value of 55.2v, which is about a volt less than the
preset.
Finally, as it looks like you're going to be using this as an unattended
charger, you MAY need to add a regulator (or load diverter) for the 36v pack
since the 55.2v is above the max you'd want the 36v pack to see. On the
other hand, if your pack had ample capacity such that, say a nominal max of
10-amps from the Air403 would only be say 1/10C (i.e. if you have at least
100Ah pack), then you probably don't need a regulator or load
diverter----although you can easily make a load diverter.
Maybe this helps-
-Myles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used a DCP dc/dc with a DCP T-Rex 1000 for a while, until the no
longer supported T-Rex blew up. The internal dc/dc fuse never blew (I
never even looked inside to know it had one), but my external 10-amp
fast-acting "semiconductor" fuse did blow several times... I think twice
in nasty weather so headlights, wipers, fan for heater, etc. all running
and once before/while stuck in traffic on a warm sunny day. I had
wondered about why, but it wasn't frequent enough to motivate me to keep
thinking about it.
As a work-around, could one add a large capacitor(s) on the input and a
beffy diode between it and the main battery pack? This assumes the
voltage dips are short so the capacitor bank can cover the duration.
Kinda a jumbo size version of the "EV filer" added to the early e-meters.
Mark Farver wrote:
Once again I ask who out there is using the DCP DC/DC with the Zilla, or
with other high current (TREX/Raptor 1200) controllers. Has anyone else
seen this issue?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:19 AM -0600 3-10-05, Mark Farver wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
Well, let's think about it.
The DC/DC input probably has an input fuse, and a big filter capacitor
inside. If the pack voltage changes very rapidly, there will be a large
surge current as the capacitors charge or discharge. This surge current
can blow the fuse.
Both Rudman and the Alltrax folks felt the only event that would
cause the input fuse to blow was repeated high inrush currents. For
example: switching the DC/DC off the ignition or a bad/loose HV wire
to the unit. The DC/DC has an inrush limiter, but it appears to be
a small thermal device.
So the problem could be as Lee suggests: pack voltage swings caused
by the Zilla. That would explain why the unit never failed on
Alltrax's test bench. It would also explain why Nick with sagging
pack of floodeds blows the fuse more often than I do with my stiffer
pack of Optimas (except when my car is driven by certain lead footed
individuals).
If that is the case there isn't much that can be done about the issue.
Once again I ask who out there is using the DCP DC/DC with the
Zilla, or with other high current (TREX/Raptor 1200) controllers.
Has anyone else seen this issue?
Mark Farver
I would also like to know if anyone else is seeing any problems
particular to the Zilla and DCP DC-DC. Also it would be interesting
to know who else (like Mark Hanson) is having problems with the DCP
converter while using other controllers.
I doubt that fast input voltage spikes are causing problems. The Z1K
has over 4000 uF of filter cap on the battery which keeps the battery
voltage pretty smooth. I would be very surprised if the DCP DC to DC
was not designed to handle that small amount of noise on the battery
input. If one wanted to test for this, a inductor could be added to
the power line to the DCP to see if it resolves the problem.
If the DCP converter is having trouble with slow voltage changes due
to battery sag, then that certainly is a design problem. An easy way
to verify this would be to turn the Zilla down to the power level of
other controllers and see if the fuse takes stops blowing.
This of course is not helpful to Nick who's controller is no longer
functioning, but maybe Mark could try it out?
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know what the voltage is on an aircraft, but
I'm guessing they use enough cells to use some type of
automated refill method.
There should be a watering method already available
for these, we just need to find a knowledigle source
associated with their maintence.
Anybody know an aeronautical engineer or technician?
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all this talk about NiCds, may be people know, but I wanted
to mention that their use in OEM EVs has been banned in Europe for
environmental reasons. Recycling or no recycling no OEM will
be allowed to sell and EV with NiCd battery in it beginning of this
year. Of course, this is because cadmium is nastier stuff than even
gasoline.
US enthusiasts perhaps couldn't care less what is going on in
European OEMs, but I don't think they (OEMs) would impose
such a hardship on themselves (many EVs already manufactured
cannot be sold since NiCd is no longer legal) without good reason.
If you do get to use BB600 or whatever, just remember it contains
poison and please them as such.
Perhaps Philippe or Jukka can comment on this situation better.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Tim Clevenger wrote:
Hi Gadget,
That works for me. That also takes the pressure off, since if
I picked them up in NorCal, I'd be hand-loading them into
a rented pickup. :-)
I'm not sure how many I'm getting. At least 70, possibly 140.
Tim
---------
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let
me know how many are coming to LA and can get quote.
I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a
cell. weekend pick up is no problem as I live in my
warehouse. I can even store them for a little while if
that helps anyone.
Gadget
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
>
> Oh $hit!
>
> I was charging my 12 volt battery with my brainless "car battery"
> charger as I now have no DC/DC. Well, I forgot that I left the charger
> on the 10 amp setting. It had been on for like 2.5 hours and the voltage
> had gone up to 17.3 volts when I caught it and the battery was hot! I
> immediately disconnected the charger (after muttering some obscenities
> to the stupid charger). It was a good thing the battery was really low
> when I started charging or It probably would've gotten to an even higher
> voltage. Did I just ruin my sealed Hawker Odyssey battery or did I only
> hurt it badly? :-(
You probably caused it to vent and gas off some water. This will shorten
its life, but it won't die immediately.
Actually, if the battery was hot, it was probably in thermal runaway.
The voltage had been even higher earlier, and was probably *falling* as
the battery kept getting hotter!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Barber wrote:
> I am thinking about getting a 3 phase motor rewound to put into
> an electric vehicle. It has a rated continuous hp of 27.
Wow. That's a big motor! Probably a couple hundred pounds?
> How much peak hp would it be possible to squeeze out of this thing
> if it is going to be rewound?
Everything depends on heat. How much power for how long? How much
cooling are you providing? Starting with a cold motor, you could get
some stupefying amount of torque out of it for 10 seconds. The
horsepower will then depend on the rpm.
See if it has cast aluminum windings on its rotor. If so, you'll melt
the aluminum out of it before the copper stator windings fail.
> 38 exide orbital batteries gives a nominal batt voltage of 456V.
Wow again. Heavy pack. Is this vehicle competition for "Going Postal"?
> Orbitals can put out 1000A at 10.1V... which equals 383kW. This
> translates to a peak achievable hp of 513 at the motor shaft.
> Assuming 85% efficiency, this reduces to 436 hp.
You will get less efficiency at these power levels. More likely 60-70%.
> In order to get the motor to take 1000A, I did some specific heat calcs for
> copper and it looked like 6 gauge wire would be needed if I was going to
> sustain this current for 10 seconds and stay below the max insulation
> temperature.
Just as for DC PWM controllers, the AC motor's current is *not* the same
as pack current! The AC inverter is stepping down the voltage, and so is
stepping UP the current.
Roughly speaking (i.e. when using an inverter that applies the "right"
voltage and frequency for a given speed and torque), an induction
motor's current is still proportional to torque, and motor voltage is
proportional to rpm. Your 1000 amps of motor current could easily occur
at max torque / low rpm where the AC voltage being applied by the
inverter is quite low, so battery current is much smaller than 1000
amps.
Figuring out what basic voltage to wind the motor for is somewhat of a
challenge. For starters, let's say that your motor is nameplate rated at
480vac 3phase 60hz 3500rpm 27hp.
1. The rotor can probably withstand 2x the speed, or 7000rpm. Since
speed is proportional to voltage, you'd have to apply 480x2=960vac
at 120hz to get to this speed.
2. To produce a 960vac sinewave takes 960x1.4=1344vdc. But your Optimas
only supply 456vdc. 456/1344=0.34, so we want to rewind the motor
for about 0.34 of its nameplate voltage. 0.34x480vac=163vac.
3. Whoever is rewinding the motor will look at the winding space
available, and count the present number of turns. They will put
back 0.34 as many turns, and increase the wire size by the same
ratio (roughly 1/3rd the turns of 3 times bigger cross-section
wire).
> 1) Is it feasible to wind a motor with 6 gauge wire?
You can wind it with *any* gauge, right up to the point where a single
bar fills the entire slot (1 turn per slot).
But it's a matter of cost. Heavier wires are harder to bend, and crowd
into the slots. It takes more time, and so it costs you more.
Most AC motors use many turns of relatively fine wire. They can wind the
coils on wooden pegs on the bench, bundle them loosely with string or
tape, and then crowd the loose bundles of wire into the slots in the
stator.
At the other extreme (very few turns of very heavy wire), they custom
make bussbars to fit the slots, slide each turn in individually, and
weld the ends together to form the complete windings. This also goes
fairly quickly if there aren't too many slots and turns.
In between these extremes, they have to get creative. Sometimes they use
many smaller wires in parallel, so they are easier to crowd into the
slots. Other times they have specialized equipment or special stator
constructions that allow for large stiff wire bundles.
> 2) Would I be encroaching on saturating the stator or rotor with
> these types of power levels?
You might, but it's the inverter's job to keep you out of saturation. It
won't apply too high a voltage for the present rpm and frequency, to
avoid saturation.
> 3) Would I be able to get a rotor which would take this current,
> or does it get rewound during the rewind process as well?
Rotors don't need to be rewound regardless of the stator voltage. The
main problem with the rotor is that is will have been designed for
fixed-frequency 60hz use, to achieve some compromise in starting
current, torque, slip, temperature rise, etc. It is hard to change this
(except by replacing the rotor).
Low-slip rotors are best for EVs, because they are the most efficient
and run the coolest. But, they are rare on motors designed for fixed
frequency (50-60Hz) operation, because they cause low starting torque
and very high starting current -- a bad compromise. A low-slip motor has
a nameplate rpm very close to synchronous speed (3510-3550 rpm).
Normal-slip rotors are much more common. They sacrifice a few percent
efficiency to get more starting torque and lower starting current when
started directly on 50-60hz. For your purposes, a normal-slip rotor will
overheat twice as fast. A normal slip motor has a nameplate rpm like
3450-3500 rpm.
High-slip rotors are used in motors that must start high-torque loads,
like compressors. They are the least efficient, but start the best on
fixed-frequency AC. A high-slip motor has a nameplate rpm like 3300-3400
rpm.
Finally, if the motor is being rewound for inverter use, have them use
the very highest temmperature wire, and very best insulation. An EV
motor is likely to get VERY hot at times, and the inverter can produce
VERY large voltage spikes.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
Bill,
You had a post before saying that the BB-600 are Marathon cells. Are they? We are under the impression that they are Saft cells. Can you elaborate more on what makes you think that they are Marathon? Is it just the size?
Ok, here's the deal.
BB600 cells are a certain size and type. They have specifications for
size, capacity, and all that sort of thing. Airplanes use them, Army
used them for some sort of rocket interceptor thingie. Kind of like the
fact that Trojan, Exide, and everyone else makes a "T105" type battery.
Standard size, capacity, etc. How they do it inside is up to the
manufacturer.
Different manufacturers made the batteries under the specs set forth.
Marathon made them, SAFT made them. These are SAFT batteries according
to the contract. Also according to the contract these seem to be the
"better" batteries that have a more durable inter-cell seperator layer.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BB600 is a military designation.
Saft, G.E., and Marathon all build and supply to the BB600 spec.
Neither company refers to their own cells as BB600, only the DoD and EVDL
call them BB600 ;-)
and one other note;
These cells are not BB600's they are BB600A/A. The A/A uses a
longerlasting polypropylene separator as opposed to the cellophane
separator in the BB600. Other than the separator, they are the same thing.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:19 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: BB600 charging
>
> Bill,
>
> You had a post before saying that the BB-600 are Marathon cells. Are they?
> We are under the impression that they are Saft cells. Can you elaborate
> more
> on what makes you think that they are Marathon? Is it just the size?
>
> The Invitation for Bid clearly states SAFT AMERICA INC. P/N 017371-000.
>
> Rush
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: BB600 charging
>
>
>> The BB600 manual that I have from Marathon calls for a 21A CC charge
>> until
>> all cells reach 1.55V, then a 2-hour topping charge of 8.4A.
>>
>> I was planning on attaching an Amp-hour counter to the Nicads, and then
>> putting back approx. 110% of the Amp-hours used to equalize the cells.
>> So
>> if I used 30 Amp-hours, for example, I'd want to put 33 Amp-hours back
>> in.
>> If my charger goes to only 18A, then I'd charge at 18A for an hour,
> followed
>> by 8A for 2 hours. Does that sound right, or is there a better way to
>> do
>> it?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Maki, Garret
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:43 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: BB600 charging
>>
>> OK, so it looks like a lot of us may be playing with NiCad.
>> What are you planning on using for charging? How advanced does the
> charger
>> need to be? I've only been doing this for a few months now so sorry if
> this
>> has already been discussed.
>> -Garret in Colorado
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take the end bell off and send it to me. I can put
those holes in it for you in less time than we have
spent chatting about it.
Gadget
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Here is what I would do.
> >> Use a trolley jack to hold the motor/tranny in
> the proper position.
> >> Attach the bolts at the rear of the transmission.
> >> Attach the front motor mount to the car.
> >> Use a grease pencil/etc. to mark the position of
> the front mount on the
> >> motor. Probably good idea to add an index mark
> that goes across the
> >> motor
> >> onto the mount.
> >
> > What kind of precision is required in aligning the
> motor in the car?
> > Is this enough? What happens if the motor goes in
> slightly crooked,
> > will things tear themselves apart? If this is
> good enough, it's almost
> > tempting to buy a tap and just use my cordless
> drill with a 3/8" bit,
> > though I guess I'd need to be *very* careful I was
> going at it straight
> > and didn't mess it up. I'd probably still take it
> to a machinist just
> > to be sure.
>
> Unless you are *really* good with a hand drill and
> tap, it's easy to get
> the hole drilled at an angle or out of round. Even
> if you get the whole
> right, it's easy to get the tap started at an angle
> which eventually
> leaves you with threads on only one side.
>
> Best bet is to do as Mike suggested and get the
> proper end bell. Failing
> that I'd highly recommend having a professional, or
> at least someone with
> extensive experience, drill&tap it for you. Like I
> said, it shouldn't be
> very expensive.
>
> As for alignment. The closer you get the
> motor/trans to perfect the
> better, but it doesn't have to be perfect to work
> well.
> The bolts in the back of the tranny will help and a
> tape measure can line
> up the rest.
>
>
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
