EV Digest 4202
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Desulfator.
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Series motor runaway
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by John Shelton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Why I do use flooded, was Re: Why I won't use flooded batteries
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: AZ Republic Blurb
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: EV-1 Vigil
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Measuring power required for air & tire resistance
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery Desulfator.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: AZ Republic Blurb
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rabbit replacement
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Series motor runaway
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) American buisness model is wrong (on topic, eventually)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 1498 Digest had virus.
by "Pat Davisson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) E-Meter Madness
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AZ Republic Blurb (Reply to Neon John , Others)
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor Horsepower questions.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Perf Upgrade using EV components
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:57:51 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Does technology like this work. If so will it work for deep cycle batteries
> or sealed batteries. Seems just a very high amp charge does more to help.
> Which technique works the best?
>
> http://www.batterylifesaver.com/index.html Just saw this in Popular
> Mechanics.
Look here http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm and here
http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfationfor for more
information.
I think this all is useless for deep-cycle application were the
lead-acid battery is allway fully charged within a short time.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys, looking for more info, my Zamboni has a shunt motor now and draws
about 100 amps when not moving or operating the augars, it is driving a gear
box that runs the hydrastatic trans and hydraulic pumps (note that both are
turning all the time but are in bypass mode) I am thinking that perhaps there
is enough load present under these conditions that I could run a common series
wound motor and it would not "run wild", is there any rule of thumb that could
assist me in what would load would be enough for a motor at different speeds
and voltages? I would like to run a series motor with contactor only at 72
volts and maintain a rpm of around 2400 to 3000, it would not have to be a
constant rpm but as little change as possible, I have no idea how much a load
will effect the rpm.
As usual I appreciate all comments
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have lived by a philosophy that my father taught me. Believe nothing that is
said and only half of what you read. Its a Newspaper so believe half of it and
give up the rest. This Newspaper report a deadly gas release of LN2 in 1983-
Thats liquid nitrogen folks. On top of that it was an expansion over
pressurization valve which had vented for 5 minutes. We had a power outage at
the plant and the freezer units that kept the the LN2 cold where off line and
the tank over pressurized as the N2 warmed up. We lost 1000 gallons of a 10,000
gallon tank. It was also 112 degrees that day so it made a neat Shot of N2 snow
during the middle of the day. But it didn't hit the ground it evaporated off.
But by the New papers report we nearly killed everyone within a half mile
radius. There wasn't another house around for nearly 2 miles. So with that
said, there is no hidden agendas here just normal bad reporting that you have
to take with a grain of salt. And this Newspaper is not the only!
one. It
has gone on for hundreds of years. Check out the reporting of the Mr. Tesla's
experiments or the reporting of the first Model A Fords.
As said in Men in Black " Individuals are smart, People are dumb stupid
animals" GM's is porting out the hype the the people will listen to. Us
individuals see through it but convincing people is another story all together.
Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ Republic is run by
> some neo-con Rush
> Slimeball type media conglomerate.
It was owned by Dan Quale's family last time I checked.
__________________________________
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Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That smelly oil that Dead heads wear instead of deodorant. I have no
idea how it's spelled.
John
Bob Siebert wrote:
chiluli? I looked it up and got an abstract of S. Chiluli's thesis.
This thesis is concerned with the design and implementation of a
Relational Multimedia Database System, in short RMDBS. RMDBS is
designed to efficiently use storage space and manipulate various
kinds of data; attribute data, bit-mapped pictures, and programs
in binary code.
Hmmm...
/Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
I use floodeds because they get 1.5x the
range in most apps except where range is very short.
They cost about 1/2-1/3 or less for the same
range. They also require a much better charger and
regs that drive the costs, labor even higher.
If you have a charging screwup on a flooded,
you can just put in some water unlike AGM's where you
just replace costly batts!!!
The problems you describe are easily handled
by putting the batts in a batt box which you need
anyways so you can insulate them in winter to keep
range up, as far as stray acid problems go. But if you
charge correctly, stray acid isn't a problem until
old, the last 1/6 of their life.
Terminal corrosion can be solved by either
using a protective spray, vasoline or enamel paint for
coating the terminals. A good idea even on AGM's which
are not immune to it..
As far as watering, if you have a good batt
charger it isn't much of a problem, only once every 2
months or so.
Since you should check your batts, their
terminals of either kind about every 2 months anyway
and the water levels are a good indicator of how your
charging, batteries are doing, it's not really that
much of a problem with a good auto level watering can
where you just put it in the hole and press
automaticly filling it to the proper level, it's quite
easy.
AGM's costs are higher over 10 yrs than Ni-cads
so I'd would go with them before spending so much on
AGM's except if you want to race.
It comes down to this, do you want to spend
about 3x's as much for batts with less range or pay
1/3 and water them some?
I know which one I want ;-))
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The water maintance is bad enough. But the
> corrosion from those things!
>
> Here's two pics from my sister's stock '96 Ford
> Explorer:
>
> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/7389/badbat10ov.jpg
>
> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/2375/badbat24bd.jpg
>
> I hear you say "just wash them off". That's one
> thing when they are
> under the hood. But how about when you have ~25
> batteries in the
> trunk of the car and where the back seat was with
> none of them under
> the hood? Have you priced 4/0 cable and terminals?
> It adds up and
> I'd prefer to just make the cable set once.
>
>
> FYI, I've had the SAME Optima red top on my ice car
> since 1997. I've
> never cleaned the terminals:
>
> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/1817/optimared7ca.jpg
>
> http://img48.exs.cx/img48/8549/batdate0ia.jpg
>
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see you've been taking spelling lessons from Dan in spelling his last
name. :)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sam Thurber
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: AZ Republic Blurb
> I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ Republic is run by
> some neo-con Rush
> Slimeball type media conglomerate.
It was owned by Dan Quale's family last time I checked.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< That smelly oil that Dead heads wear instead of deodorant. I have no
idea how it's spelled.
John >>
Oooh! PATCHOULI! Yeah, stinky stuff, good at covering up other, not-so-legal
scents.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rant mode on.
Saw some news item the other day talking about how GM stock is going
down the toilet. All I can say is, it can't happen fast enough, or fall
far enough for me. GM is one of the most detestable corporations I have
ever seen. It doesn't matter what it is -- improving gas mileage,
improving passenger safety -- every single thing would "cost too much"
or "force them to close plants". The government was going to start
requiring airbags -- GM went ballistic, it would be impossible to do
without killing the company. Well, guess what -- Now they're stinking
"industry safety leaders" with their "innovative airbag systems" and
they use the added safety angle to sell cars. Improving gas mileage?
No, GM can't possibly do that! It would put us out of business! Then
the Japanese show up with their CVCC engine and show just how much fuel
economy you CAN get, and make yearly improvements! Freaking liars. And
it isn't enough that the Japanese car makers kick GM's ass all over the
place sales-wise in the 70's -- They stay entrenched in their little
hole and when fuel prices drop and there's an oil glut from the
far-eastern economy slowdown, they go right back to their old ways and
start cranking out the biggest SUVs in history and sell them like
they're commuter vehicles.
I was telling my wife as we watched the GM stock story, it was too bad
that the people who were going to suffer from the thing are all the
rank-and-file employees at GM, because all the executives are sitting
there with their fat bonuses and golden parachutes and would hardly
notice if it went under tomorrow. Honestly, I wish it would go out of
business tomorrow, because there would still be some EV-1's left
uncrushed that we could buy from the bastards as they sold off assets to
pay bills.
I had the opportunity to drive an EV-1 several years ago and it was
incredible. But you know what? I own a Solectria Force, and realize
that if GM had REALLY wanted to do EVs right, they would have done
something similar to the pristine simplicity of the Force -- Almost no
components in it, it used a standard GM body, and once you started
mass-producing the thing, it would be DIRT CHEAP. And if GM had given
half a damn about America, they would have gone that way because it
would have made us less dependent on foreign oil. But no -- They went
in the other direction. Make the car as expensive to build as
possible. Make it only in a two-seater model so it's impractical for
most families. Don't advertise it. Then only build a few and lie til
the cows come home about how unpopular it is. Then start building
freaking Hummers for the CONSUMER MARKET. Every time I pick up a
newspaper and see how many of our soldiers are dying every day to get a
foothold in Oil Central, I think about GM and how their policies over
the years have led to this situation. It makes me sick. Seeing EV1s
lined up to go into a CRUSHER, for god's sake, instead of going on to
save oil and soldiers' lives, makes me want to puke.
I want GM to go down in flames and stand as an example of how NOT to run
a business.
Rant mode off. (but my blood is still boiling)
-Tom
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Claudio, which bit of road did you use?
(May be useful for other Sydneysiders...)
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Claudio Natoli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 14 March 2005 4:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Measuring power required for air & tire resistance
Lawrence Miller writes:
> Force = M * A = 900 Newtons
Dropped a factor of 2 here. Rest of math checks out.
> I plan to take time & speed measurements of my 1996
> GEO METRO, decelerating from 60 MPH, with clutch in,
> to estimate energy and power requirements for items 1,
> 2, and 3.
>
> I was interested to know if anyone else approached the
> issue of power & energy in this manner, or how it was
> measured, computed, or estimated.
That's exactly what my wife and I did before starting our first
conversion a few months back. With the vehicle suitably loaded, we went
for some timing runs up and down a nice, long, flat, quiet stretch of
road at night: accelerate up to around 90km/hr, then coast down with
clutch in, calling out every 5 km/hr decrement and recording the elapsed
interval; repeated a few times up-and-down the same stretch.
For each interval, taking the loss in kinetic energy [ie. 1/2 * m *
(v_initial**2 - v_final**2) ] and dividing by the respective average
elapsed time, gave us a crude but useful approximation to the power
required to overcome drag and rolling resistance losses for steady state
at a range of speeds.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lawrence,
Was just over at Wal Mart, and they got a new line of battery chargers in made
by Schauer. These are solid state with a digital readout. They have ranges
from 2 to 100 amps and another range for maintaining, standard battery,
deepcell battery and fast charge.
There is also a Desulfator cycle. I have been using a Schauer 6-12-24 battery
charger that is over 40 years old which I used at times for balancing, which I
have to calculated the time and monitor the voltage.
The price range is from $40 for the 2 to 10 amp one and $80 for the 2 to 100
amp one which is completely automatic which will charge 6 or 12 volt battery.
The 50 to 100 amp ones have the desulfator cycle, so it may be just a higher
ampere at a certain pulse cycle for a measure time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> ;
Zappylist<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:57 AM
Subject: Battery Desulfator.
Does technology like this work. If so will it work for deep cycle batteries
or sealed batteries. Seems just a very high amp charge does more to help.
Which technique works the best?
http://www.batterylifesaver.com/index.html<http://www.batterylifesaver.com/index.html>
Just saw this in Popular
Mechanics.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL, touché (or should I say tooshay)!
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I see you've been taking spelling lessons from Dan
> in spelling his last
> name. :)
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Sam Thurber
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:11 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: AZ Republic Blurb
>
> > I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ Republic is run
> by
> > some neo-con Rush
> > Slimeball type media conglomerate.
>
> It was owned by Dan Quale's family last time I
> checked.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I will also miss the EV1--I rented one for a work-week and drove it up
route 101 from EV Rentals at the LA airport to UCSB in Goleta, 100
miles north. It was not the NiMH version, but the Panasonics were giving
me 120 mile range (the computer estimated 80, but passing Malibu it was
*up* to 97). I recharged at Ventura while I ate lunch, because I was
depending on charging at the Costco in Goleta, and I was hoping that the
charger actually existed and worked (in fact, only 1 of the 2 chargers
at each of the locations actually did!). Going back, I passed a slow car
in the right lane at 85 (the cars in the left lane were going 90). Of
course, I was driving for max range--minimize current draw and maximize
regen time when slowing.
While I support any efforts to raise public awareness of EV's in
general, and the great car that we are losing specifically, I also
believe that we should buy cars from people who actually want to make
them and do a good job. (This is not to say the the (sometimes former)
engineers at the various auto companies did not do a great job, but they
are counteracted by (recent) management that has clearly decided to
suppress them.
I also have an issue with driving cars with very good safety ratings.
The Insight was unfortunately crash tested by John Wayland when someone
ran into him parked at 45 mph without any braking at all, but the
alumninum monocoque design typically used for aircraft proved to be as
strong as it is light, and John is still driving the same car.
Now, on to the Insight.
I began the conversion in September 2002 when I had my first
sabbatical/vacation--11 weeks off in a row. I have been driving it with
old 38AH Hawkers for 2 years, and, apart from not having any time due to
an incredible work schedule (only 4.5 years until the next sabbatical),
one can't drive the car while working on it.
I *did* hate to take apart a perfectly working Insight to convert it.
However, I did buy it (on ebay) just for that purpose, and it is a
Canadian model with no US warranty (ok, ok, so it's an excuse). The
other Insight around town awaiting conversion has a salvage title--a
front-end collision took out the engine.
Once the adaptor plate and coupler shaft were done, it was a pretty easy
conversion to get on the road. I'll be glad to forward the measurements
of the 2000 year manual transmission that I had made from a local
company with the right measuring equipment, as well as the spline specs
for the coupler shaft connecting my German motor to my Japanese
transmission. (I used the smallest AC motor and short inverter from
metricmind.com). Victor also did the adaptor plate and coupler design.
Some other local folks (ME's) reviewed the coupler shaft design.
The air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc are not a problem. They are
certified independently of the propulsion system, as I found out from a
engineer from a small company that does work for BMW whom I met at the
conference at work (before I started the conversion). Steering and
brakes have a fail-safe mode where they revert to manual system (except
perhaps a 2004 Prius that is "drive by wire", so some care may be needed
here). You do need a pump for the power brakes, but that's it. I use the
MES-DEA unit.
The *electric* power steering does not work and the EPS light comes on,
but it may work if it gets the motor speed pulses that I can program my
motor controller to emit (same as go to the tach). Power steering is
only useful at low speeds in parking lots--the Insight is so light you
really don't need it.
The heater integration is more of a problem--three motors and a computer
control this, and it also talks to the engine controller ECM. I took the
expensive but easy route of using a 2KW MES-DEA heater (sufficient for
the temperate Pacific Northwest). So I just have another switch for now.
The AC is a bigger problem, and I haven't tried hooking up the seperate
AC motor and solar pump controller to run it yet. The AC is actually
more important for dehumidifying (defogging) in winter than cooling in
summer (at least here).
One thing that *is* a minor problem is that the dash computer ignores
the mi/km button--my odometer and speedometer are in metric. Somehow it
must be too upset that the engine is not there to worry about that
switch. That's what happens when you use too many components from
"metricmind". ;-)
One thing I did wrong was to neglect the NIMH pack that came with the
car. It's BMS already talks to the dash, and two of them (288V rather
than just 144v) would be a good, light power pack to run in parallel
with the TS LiIon cells that have high voltage, good specific engergy,
but lack sufficient power. Each pack and all the stuff around it (BMS,
cooling, housing) weighs 69 lbs in a 8.5H X 20L X 15W X inch housing
(sans some mounting arms and the large fan). While there are more
powerful LiIon packs (some others are trying them), there are likely
cost/complexity tradeoffs to be made. It's hard to say what is best
until you have total lifecycle data.
Otmar has beefed up his Insight suspension, but I have not yet done so (
not being a "car guy", I'm happy to let someone else blaze the trail
here). My avoidance of this issue helps me focus on keeping the pack
light (400-500 lbs) by using advanced batteries.
As most on the list are aware, getting an EV to go is pretty easy,
especially once the adaptor plate and coupler shaft are done (spoken by
a former EE student who switched to CS to do software). The care and
feeding of the batteries is the key to good economics--one must care for
each cell just like a dogsled driver is concerned with the health of
each dog. One sick dog, and performance goes to pot, and the dog likely
will get dragged to death by the others. So I'm taking a slow route to
getting the BMS (or two--LiIon batteries can be dangerous if overcharged
or overdischarged) right while driving around with 14 old 12V AGM Hawkers.
Anyway, if you are thinking seriously about the Insight, I'll be glad to
share my data and experiences. I still have lots of stuff to scan in
from my notebook. A lot of time is spent just figuring out how to fit
components in the car. At times I felt the Insight was meant to be
converted, as things fit nicely into place, and holes were already
available at just the right spots!
Gary
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/461.html
==================================================================
With all the talk about copying the EV1, I thought I'd share my plans
for my EV. I think we already have a great replacement for the EV1,
the Honda Insight. My plans are to drive my little old 72v rabbit and
slowly upgrade all the components as I can afford to. I'll have a
functional EV that only gets better. This is going to be my learning
curve car that I can make mistakes with. I've seen a few 100,000+ mile
Insights on Ebay for about $5000 and they will only get cheaper. If
I'm lucky, I'll be able to find one with a blown engine or ruined
battery pack. The target price I'm hoping to get is $2-3000. Then I'll
put all the components in the insight and have a killer, lightweight
EV. It has great aerodynamics and if you cover the bottom and block
the front air vents and it gets even better. I think that would be a
great car to use as the new EV standard, the new Voltsrabbit
replacement. Whatta ya think Mike Brown?
John Shelton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ellery,
I have a GE Motor that is a series DC 32 HP motor rated for 165 volts at 175
amps. When I was running this motor at a 400 Rpm idle with just a little
accelerator control, I could maintain that speed.
This was just enough power, so that the motor would have enough resistance,
driving the flywheel and pressure plate.
When I increase the Rpm to 600 Rpm, it would increase so slightly in RPM to
about 3000 Rpm or greater.
So, after doing these test, I found that I could connect up standard
accessories drive to the pilot shaft of the motor, (the front shaft of the
motor), using standard accessories like power steering, alternators, vacuum
pumps, water pump (for a electric hot water heat) and Air Conditional Pump
which keeps the motor from increasing in speed.
All these devices are belted just like a engine car does. A idle control is
install on the accelerator linkage that can be adjusted like on a carburetor
and can turn off or on from the dash controls.
If the car is just setting, with very little additional loads that are put on
these accessories, I can set the idle at any motor rpm all the way up to 4000
RPM.
I measure the shaft torque on how much force it takes to turn these accessories
at no load. The readings was only 8 inch lbs at 1 Rpm.
Just having a alternator coming off the input shaft of the motor, that was load
up to 40 amps at 14 volts would keep it from overspeeding above 600 rpm.
Therefore 40 x 14 volts = 560 watts. One HP is equal to 746 watts, therefore
about 1 HP load should do it.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Deuville's Rink<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: Series motor runaway
Hi guys, looking for more info, my Zamboni has a shunt motor now and draws
about 100 amps when not moving or operating the augars, it is driving a gear
box that runs the hydrastatic trans and hydraulic pumps (note that both are
turning all the time but are in bypass mode) I am thinking that perhaps there
is enough load present under these conditions that I could run a common series
wound motor and it would not "run wild", is there any rule of thumb that could
assist me in what would load would be enough for a motor at different speeds
and voltages? I would like to run a series motor with contactor only at 72
volts and maintain a rpm of around 2400 to 3000, it would not have to be a
constant rpm but as little change as possible, I have no idea how much a load
will effect the rpm.
As usual I appreciate all comments
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Long ago it was the american dream to start small and grow ito something
big, it was something advertised about big companies, how they got
they're humble beginnings.
Now those same buisnesses seem to have manipulated the system to the
point where people don't even try anymore, they know some big buisness
will just legislate them out . We now teach our kids to sell-out when
they have an idea, to the first big conglomerant who would buy them. I
guess this IS a rant.
Who says we must hit the ground with 1/2 million cars on friday april
10th at 5pm simoultanously in the 25 major cities??? The ones who can
:-) we need to stop listening to them.
It is not just cars.
It is getting to the point where all the small startup companies and
even new jobs in big companies just "go over seas" because no-one in
american buisness will take them seriously, they won't return emails or
sell them product unless they commiit to 10 tons per month. It is not
that much cheaper to have something done in china becasue of delivery
issues it is the , dare I say, greedy american distributers that won't
do their job, they want to charge 100% markup to drop ship you a ton
from the factory. what is that???
http://www.predmaterials.com/ these guys have everything needed to
make batteries, but I only wanted enought material to make 100 to 200,
50ah to 200ah li-ion cells per month and the sales(and I think owner)
scoffed at me. it took multiple emails to get the no. I have had similar
luck with most american companies, no prices, they all ask what are you
going to use it for, how much, what will you comit to, what are you
willing to pay, grrrr. I already have 4 or 5 french, english,
austrailian replies with pricing, delivery, options.....
What if we took a hint from the open source movement with lots of people
working on an open design
First we choose a common donar vehicle to create a kit for, getting all
of us to agree on a particular model may be fun, but by the time we
wittle it down, it should be a well rounded choice.
Each "franchise" builds this "kit" and there would be approved people to
work on it in multiple cities for repairs or upgrades
we avoid car carriers because donars are aquired locally. We avoid
safety testing because it is done already, We don't sell cars, we sell
the conversion kit installed in the customers donar, which we also can
sell them as a component of the kit on a seperate invoice?
We avoid shipping batteries because of weight, but there are local
distributers. As a collective group we could make a deal with Exide for
example to standardise the price and make dated sets avail to the
frenchises.
After Joe's EV's of smallville gets established and sells a few and we
get the feedback, we go to work on the next model.
Maybe Classics is a great niche. We would be "saving" classics. There
are probably lots of people who would like the hi performance without
the fuel cost (environmental and $)
Say a small pu, a small sedan, and eventually a small SUV
maybe the first product to have done is the range extender trailer
genset allowing people faced with the one car delimma the open to make
that one car an EV.
When the Li-ion comes of age, it becomes an upgrade or a new model.
Each model will allow the diverse expressions of designs that this list
has to offer
Warning: Model brainstorming ahead.
There will be the clean muscle cars , the evette, stallion?
a 68 mustang with z2k, ford 9" and a t5
Fiero, camaro, corvette
Low cost performance
above with zilla 1k stock drive train add Z cars the ZEV (maybe
that is what I should call my eletric Z car!)
The nicad "rice rocket" lowered airbagged acura
The environmentalist
the 4 door AC sedan with litium ion
The weekender/sleeper
Dual motored , Z2k, 25 orbitals, primer and a kickass stereo
I wonder if we could come up with a battery box dimension that would
house either litium ion,nicad, or exides.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
It sounds like Earthlink freaked. The List Server at sjsu automatically
strips any binary files. I use to work for Earthlink as a master tech and I
know that their servers screw up sometimes. This is extremely true in your
case as you have a jps.com email address. The onemain servers that handle
your email are a problem that will never really get fixed. Sorry bud, but
all their tech expertice is handled in the philippines now, so don't expect
any ETR, it won't happen.
:(
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 5:58 AM
Subject: 1498 Digest had virus.
> Digest 1498 had a virus. Any news on this. LR.........
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I am having a problem with the E-Meter in my Force, and I wondered if I
could get an opinion on it. Yesterday I was happily cruising down to the
post office to ship out another order of the electric emblems, when I
noticed the meter had frozen. It read 8.6 AH used, and just stopped
updating. When I tried selecting Amps or Volts, it did not respond, just
continued to show 8.6 AH. I drove on home and then tried resetting
it. This unlocked it so to speak, so Amps and Volts were once again
visible, but now when Volts was selected it just seemed to randomly wander
up and down from about 136 Volts to about 180 Volts. Even though the car
was plugged in and charging it did not show any charging current at all.
So, is it toast or could the prescaler be the problem? It is a very very
elderly E-Meter from the early 90s currently in its fourth EV. It was
smoked once and repaired. Should I just give up and buy a new one?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: AZ Republic Blurb
> That's the key, I think. There IS NO DEMAND, at least none that
> matters commercially. A few hundred True Believers do not a market
> make. When someone makes the case for there being a market using
> generally accepted methods for the industry (NOT internet petitions or
> email bombings or phone trees or....) then the money will be
> forthcoming.
>
Hi John,
I hear what you are saying, although if you look closer at the media
machine, it's quite obvious why public sentiment is how is regarding BEV's.
Just think aboutit, if it were pointed out to you over and over again how
you have to plug in to recharge and you can only go a seemingly very short
distance with your car, and those ~points~ are repeated time and time again,
THOSE are the points that will stick in one's memory.
And at the same time, a few hundred products an offering do not make.
Everyone knows that with any new or out-the-ordinary technological
advancement, there is an adoption and market lag period. That period of time
involves a PR campaign to get your product and company name in the eye of
the public. GM never ran anything even close to a well written or rehearsed
advertisement.
The bottom line here is that evidence (speculative and circumstantial at
this point) would indicate that GM took public money through DOE Grants and
set out to do everything possible to undermine their own chance of success.
A viable sustainable product line fueled by alternative ebergy sources was
not their goal, and if it was, their entire product line would have folded
decades ago. These people know full and well how to go about things the
right way, in terms of marketing. Look at all fo the miserable V-8 engines
that came out of the GM birth canal over the last 30 years. That alone
should have been jsut cause for people to stop buying GM products, just on
suspicion that the next product would be much of the same. There are still
thousands of 305 C.I V-8's powering older cars around today.
> If pure EVs ever have a chance (and I don't think they do) then the
> advocates are going to have to stop acting like nutcakes and start
> selling the product on it real merits. No gas stations, no gas fumes,
> no engine, cheaper operation. The environmental claims either trigger
> a yawn or the person's lie detector, depending on how much he
> understands how electricity is generated and distributed. In the real
> world and not some fanciful never-never land.
Please take the time to read this article John;
http://www.evadc.org/pwrplnt.pdf
This is one of the best articles I've read in advocacy of EV's. My stand on
this matter is that if we as people ever want to have a continuation of our
present lifestyle and standard of living that we have today and in the past,
(and I really question the success of that) we collectively have to start
making a transition. Word about all on the good points will spread like a
fire if the mass media message spreads it first and pounds it into the mind
of the public. Advertising makes us justify a need for the next new level of
everything available. But a few thousand of a certain product being confined
to one third of the Western U.S. isn't going to get the word out quickly
enough.
All in all, it seems to me that the entire jist of the EV1 program was to
somehow prove that (unprofitable) BEV's just wouldn't work. If C.A.R.B.
would have not put their tails between their legs and ran off under and hid
themselves the woodpile, there likely would be a 3rd generation EV1
available in today's market.
Lastly, I can well appreciate your frustration John. I feel the same. And
likely more so than most. That's exactly what was figured into the barrage
of lies and silence that we've been treated to by GM, as well as other car
manufacturers who have dumped there BEV programs over the last several
years. That's exactly how they want us to feel, like small insects that
don't make a sound. Like indigent people who have no voice. I'm doing my
best to resist that programmed reaction. That's when we are beaten, when we
allow them to win and repress us in our attitudes. All progress is
potentially erased that way, and that makes good corporate profit margins
remain where they are now. Things won't change, nobody will have to worry
about their job being eliminated and so on. Comfy-cozy, hunkey-dorey,
aaaaaahhhhhh. Business as usual will continue like that as long as our
import systems and resources will allow.
Regards to All,
Rick Pryor
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> rather than an electrically-driven vacuum pump... run a mechanical
>> vacuum pump off the traction motor, engaging it when you step on
>> the brakes
Nick Viera wrote:
> I wonder how much a mechanical vacuum pump costs?
Every air compressor is also a vacuum pump. Any small engine can work as
a vacuum pump. So, the potential is there for something really cheap.
> Though, I wonder if you'd have any problems holding the brakes in on
> hills with a tail-shaft driven pump (say, when you stop at a traffic
> light)? Because once the motor stops, the vacuum pump isn't producing
> anymore vacuum, so would the pedal get harder and harder to keep
> depressed as vacuum bleeds off?
If it's working right and doesn't leak, the brake booster only "uses"
vacuum each time you depress the pedal. If you just hold the pedal
depressed (or released), it isn't using any vacuum.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Of the currently available AC motors, is there ONE of them that
> would out perform your current setup of 2 DC motors?
It's not the motor; it's the inverter. If you can find a way to generate
enough kilowatts of AC, then an AC motor will match a DC motor, pound
for pound. The AC motor might even be able to top the HP/lb of a DC
motor by running at a higher rpm.
But at the moment the smallest, lightest, cheapest AC "inverter" happens
to be a commutator!
> How about a "simple", bare bones AC inverter? No regen, no software
> interface, just a high amp inverter. To start with anyways..
This can work. From experiments I did years ago, it looks like a
wound-rotor or PM rotor AC motor (now called brushless DC) can use a
much simpler inverter, which gives you a chance at building one small
enough and cheap enough to compete.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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James Massey wrote:
> I have had similar thoughts with my Toyota Dyna (4000kg GVM), and
> came up with the following thoughts:
>
> 2) tailshaft maximum is around 3750RPM, well below maximum for a
> smallish EV-type motor, but OK for a larger forklift-type motor.
That's a pretty good speed for a large DC series motor.
> 3) my vehicle has not enough room (length-wise) to do this
How long is the drive shaft? A big DC series motor would need around
24", but a hydraulic motor would fit in as little as 6".
> 3a) it would be possible to put a motor between the diesel and the
> gearbox.
That's the "hard way" to add it. Lots or re-design of the bell housing,
clutch, and flywheel. It's the sort of thing that would require the
resources of a vehicle manufacturer to pull it off (and it's hard even
for them).
An easier option might be to add the electric motor to the engine, belt-
or chain-driven from the front of the crankshaft like the other
accessories. No electric-only mode with this route.
> 4) A pulley could be put onto [the parking brake drum]...
> I don't know is if the gearbox rear bearing could cope with the
> side-load, or if an additional carrier bearing would be needed.
I think you'd need the extra bearing.
> 5) due to the steep hills here, there is a need to have a gearbox,
> so there is no practicality to a tailshaft-drive EV only mode
> without a BIG motor.
Agreed. However, big motors are available and can do it. Trains, large
trucks, and city buses all exist with large electric motors directly
coupled like this.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> Its a known problem on this old cars, the rubber isn't enough elastic
> anymore to make piston came back when you release the brakes pedal.
> Cleaning all and changing all caliper rubber washer is the only solution i
> know.
Even with that, if you push the pistons back into the cylinders, the
pads still rest against the rotor and drag. There is no spring to pull
them away.
With drum brakes, there is always a physical spring to mechanically pull
the shoes away from the drum. So, I have always found it possible to
adjust them so the shoes don't touch at all.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
