EV Digest 4204
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Transistor Votage Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Where is all the power going?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Where is all the power going?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Neon John's latest attack on this forum
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: power brakes and vacuum
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) NiCad Bonanza.....
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: NiCad Bonanza.....
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Fw: E-volks motor and adapter on EBAY
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: power brakes and vacuum
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Personal attacks/conspiracy theory touts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) New Beetle passes challenging driveway test!
by "Don Cameron \(New Beetle EV\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Neon John's latest attack on this forum
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Let's cut each other some slack, OK?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Doing something, Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Rabbit replacement
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: American buisness model is wrong (on topic, eventually)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor Horsepower questions.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Perf Upgrade using EV components
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Let's cut each other some slack, OK?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I think this is the problem with EVs. It's not a problem with EVs
> themselves. The "true believers" know how to build them, and know that
> they work. But (so far) they have lacked the marketing and manufacturing
> skills to expand it into a going business.
How about we utilize a presently existing EV company. Be it Cloud or
Electro Automotive or someone else. How can we take EV's to the "next
level"? What needs to be done that is currently not?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
> i don't know for these but this is a renault type
>
> http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/3e/05/18_1_b.JPG
Those have some sort of a return mechanism? In that picture as it
sits, what is to return the piston back into the caliper? How is the
piston sitting there extended out like that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Power brakes (was power steering and AC)
Lee Hart wrote:
>> rather than an electrically-driven vacuum pump... run a mechanical
>> vacuum pump off the traction motor, engaging it when you step on
>> the brakes
Nick Viera wrote:
> I wonder how much a mechanical vacuum pump costs?
My cost about $125.00 from a General Motor Dealer who sells Diesel GMC
pickups. You will also need a vacuum tank that also has a check value in it
like a brake booster has. If you want to tap of this line to run other vacuum
driven devices, then tap of the line that would go from the vaccum tank to the
brake booster.
Install another check value in that tap off line. The tap of line would
normally go to existing vacuum system you have.
Roland
Every air compressor is also a vacuum pump. Any small engine can work as
a vacuum pump. So, the potential is there for something really cheap.
> Though, I wonder if you'd have any problems holding the brakes in on
> hills with a tail-shaft driven pump (say, when you stop at a traffic
> light)? Because once the motor stops, the vacuum pump isn't producing
> anymore vacuum, so would the pedal get harder and harder to keep
> depressed as vacuum bleeds off?
If it's working right and doesn't leak, the brake booster only "uses"
vacuum each time you depress the pedal. If you just hold the pedal
depressed (or released), it isn't using any vacuum.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Lee. I think all I might need is: R3, Q1 and R4; the BMS already
turns on the opto at the appropriate voltage.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 4:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Transistor Votage Question
> what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different
> than my original question. I want the Collector/Emitter of the
> transistor to dissipate all the power.
You can do this, but it requires a transistor with about 4 times the
power rating (for a given bypass current). It is a better design to use
a resistor in series with the transistor. You size the resistor to
dissipate all the power when the transistor is fully on. When the
transistor is half on (bypassing half the current), it also see half the
voltage. This the the point where power dissipation in the transistor
reaches it maximum. Thus, its worst-case power dissipation is only 1/4th
of what it would have been if there was no series resistor and the
transistor had to dissipate it all.
> The collector of the NPN Darlington is attached the battery + and
> the emitter to battery -, just like Victor's clamper circuit. The
> resistor on the base in this case is just to limit the base current
> to 50mA, which is all the current that the opto can handle.
Here is the basic circuit I think you want. View with a fixed-width font
like Courier New or FixedSys:
+Cell___________________________
| | |
> R1 > R3 |
> 17.5k > 1k |
> 1% > |/ emitter
| |___________| Q1: 2N5194, MJE2955, etc.
| C1 _|_ base| PNP transistor
| 0.01uF _\_/_ |\ collector
|____||____| U1: LED of |
| || | optocoupler |
| \_|_ |
|---------/_\\ |
| | D1: TL431 > R4
> R2 | adjustable > 2 ohms
> 25k | "zener" > 10 watt
> 1% | |
-Cell__|__________|_____________|
D1 is an IC that functions as an adjustable zener diode. It's zener
voltage is V = 2.5v x (1 + R1/R2) = 2.5 x (1 + 17.5/25) = 4.25v. Pick
the values of R1 and R2 for whatever voltage you want.
C1 is a capacitor to slow down the response so it doesn't try to clamp
every tiny little pulse of voltage over 4.25v, but instead holds the
average value at 4.25v.
R3 is not critical; it just makes sure Q1 turns completely off even if
it is hot.
R4 dissipates most of your heat. The value chosen above is to bypass 2
amps maximum (because I = 4.25v/2ohms = 2.13 amps). At 2 amps is
dissipates P = 4.25v x 2.13a = 9 watts, so a 10 watt resistor is the
smallest you can use (and it will get hot)!
Q1 is a PNP bipolar transistor. You don't need a darlington for this
circuit, because even bipolars have a gain of 50 or so. This means 2
amps of collector current requires 2/50 = 0.04 amps (40ma) of base
current -- U1 and D1 can easily handle this.
U1 is the LED of an optocoupler. It will "turn on" when the circuit
begins bypassing current. The output side of this optocoupler can
operate an indicator or circuit to control the charger.
Not shown is a fuse and a thermal cutout. Both should be used, to handle
fault conditions safely.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland wrote:
>You will also need a vacuum tank that has
>a check valve in it like a brake booster has.
Here are 3 for example:
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/CategoryDisplay?cgmenbr=361&cgrfnbr=158855
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Maybe it's time to try to make a run again
at the Selectria Sunrise?
With the company sold maybe the new owners
would be willing to part with it in order to sell
their AC drives, ect which it was designed with. Would
be a good size market for them.
The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at the
best fiberglass building corp in the world who would
probably love to get that part of the work.
This was the best EV ever built and even had
4 seats with a 300 mile freeway range, Boston to NY,
which is still a record most likely for a 4 seater and
would be easy to do with Li-ions! Or 120mile range
with lead or 180miles with ni-cads, my favorite.
It's all designed and even crash tested I
believe and should be fairly easy to put into
production as a kit or turn key.
Anyone game? Thoughts?
jerry dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Take each car at 10 mph 20 mph 30 mph etc both directions on a level
road under power and measure the watts
Take both vehicles to 60 and time the coast down 30 in neutral, both
directions on same piece of road. have helper take speed and time
measurements for you
draw a graph of the 2
I would guess that differences in slope will be aero and differences in
distance between 2 lines on graph would be drivetrain drag
so if they are mostly parallel but a distance apart, i would put a
pyrometer , or even your hand on the tires when I get back and see if
the lost energy shows up in tire heat, indicating alignment issues,
check brake temp but that is hard to do cause you have to stop and
putting your hands on the brakes is not smart and differnet cars would
be too differnent for a comparison.
If they are noticbly different in slope then aero may be cause
I am assuming both are front wheel drive stick shifts? Civic should
be more efficient on tranny not less.(less angle on gears, no planatary
final drive, lighter gears)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
Next time you go on a long drive in it,
when you stop get out and quickly go around the car
and feel the wheel hubs, motor, trans, tires, ect for
heat as any power wasted will be in the form of heat
and should be detectable that way.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions on where to start
> on identifying the
> reasons for high power usage in an EV? My Force
> only uses about 200 watt
> hours per mile (measured from the batteries), while
> my Civic is more like
> 325 to 350. Both are small aero cars, one is AC one
> is DC, and of course
> the Force has regen, but I don't think the
> difference should be so large.
>
> My thinking is this, either the Civic is requiring
> too much power to push
> due to drag issues, or the motor controller and
> battery combo have some
> sort of issue causing them to use to much
> electricity. So, any ideas on
> how I can identify the problem?
>
> Id do have some thoughts: Excess brake drag, a noisy
> transmission, a bad
> battery or to and so forth. I am just not sure
> where to start. This car
> has never been particularly efficient, but I can't
> find a good reason why
> it doesn't do better. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
> Maybe it's time to try to make a run again
> at the Selectria Sunrise?
> The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at the
> best fiberglass building corp in the world who would
> probably love to get that part of the work.
How much does the unibody weigh? How long does it take to make each
one? How much will they cost?
Are they "pure fiberglass"? Or is there something inside of it? Like
bracing or framing of some sort?
Say for example that you personally have that fiberglass company do a
run and make ~25 unibody's. Where you go from there?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're being mocked all over the country. It's really a pretty sad
joke to the rest of us.
The blurb was about a BoobWatch, er, BayWatch "all silicone all thet
ime" star being arrested
Only because I am involved with EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake
cause the demonstration was about.
There IS NO DEMAND, at least none that matters commercially.
Neon John never misses an opportunity to sling mud all over any
environmental cause or anyone who suggests that there is a larger agenda
at play here.
He is full of crap as usual.
Why are there no BEVs on the market? There is a HUGE demand for these
products John, but there is just an even LARGER reluctance to offer them
because of the collusion between big oil and automakers.
The free market rules, but only so long as the free market has access.
The free market for BEVs has no access in this country. Our government
is keeping real BEV alternatives out of this market by supressing
domestic development (read no funding), and blocking the importation of
other low volume alternatives from other countries through the domestic
crash test requirements that cost tens of millions to complete. Those
expensive mandatory tests keep any small players effectively out of the
market and this is exactly how the large automakers want it. They
control this market, not the free enterprise system.
People want alternatives. That is why the hybrid cars are doing so well.
Few people want to be early technology adopters. They wait until the
technology matures and they have choices. It is all about choices. If
the automakers built (and offered for sale) a number of different BEVs
and marketed them at the same level they are pimping the hybrids, there
would be a thriving BEV market.
Hell, in this country, they even removing the plug-in hybrid options
that they offer in the rest of the world! Why do they do this? Because
they are actively campaigning against the plug here and have been for
years. Big oil rules in America. Pure and simple.
So take your mocking attitude and personal attacks against good people
elsewhere John. You are wrong-headed and perpetuating hateful
stereotypes.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, I'm speaking from experience. If you want the
pump off, get a GAST pump, and a square D switch.
You can get 4 actuations on every activations of the
pump.
Can't beat it. And it's _quiet_, too.
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Nick wrote:
>
> > Or maybe brake boosters don't bleed any vacuum off
> as long as you keep
> > the pedal depressed and I'm being dumb thinking
> they do?
>
> If I come to a slow stop at a light, and keep the
> pedal down, the pump
> doesn't come on usually while holding down the pump.
> It almost always
> comes on just as I let off of the brakes.
>
> My vacuum pump is also the noisiest part of the EV.
> Sometimes I start
> thinking about how I can get rid of it - but usually
> come to the
> conclusion others have mentioned before - it's
> probably good to have a
> little noise. The other day there was a jogger on
> the side of the
> road. Just as I passed, he crossed the road. If he
> hadn't heard me,
> and crossed without looking, I'd have had a
> splattered jogger on my
> hood. Most people look, but some put blind trust in
> their ears.
>
> Even so, it would be cool if it was as quiet as it
> is without the vacuum
> pump all the time.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great
> prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
On a recent trip to my local fine-junque yard, I aquired some overstocked
NiCad flooded cells for a price that I couldn't say no to. Especially
considering that there was no shipping cost, as I hauled them home in my car
trunk, two loads total. I am surprised at how light they are, so I am really
into the whole train of thought about building a small experimental pack to
see how I like them as compared to Pba's.
I have no experience with charging NiCads, other than AA sized consumer
grade dry cells. Is there a Web resource for information about the care and
feeding of this type of battery? I am hoping that there is a place to glean
info from at my own pace so that I don't clog up the List and cause it to
bundle even more digests per 24 hour period than it already is. (I feel bad
for the equipment at SJU.)
Any pointers to a site even half as exhaustive in info as the lead acid
battery resource linked to the Photo Album would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and regards to All,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick, do you know the manufacturer?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 5:39 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: NiCad Bonanza.....
Hello All,
On a recent trip to my local fine-junque yard, I aquired some overstocked
NiCad flooded cells for a price that I couldn't say no to. Especially
considering that there was no shipping cost, as I hauled them home in my car
trunk, two loads total. I am surprised at how light they are, so I am really
into the whole train of thought about building a small experimental pack to
see how I like them as compared to Pba's.
I have no experience with charging NiCads, other than AA sized consumer
grade dry cells. Is there a Web resource for information about the care and
feeding of this type of battery? I am hoping that there is a place to glean
info from at my own pace so that I don't clog up the List and cause it to
bundle even more digests per 24 hour period than it already is. (I feel bad
for the equipment at SJU.)
Any pointers to a site even half as exhaustive in info as the lead acid
battery resource linked to the Photo Album would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and regards to All,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://tinyurl.com/5l84y
This is the Utah kit. The Highway model. They claim it is a 30 hp Shunt
motor. Any comments on this motor? Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Bob Bath wrote:
get a GAST pump, and a square D switch.
Can't beat it. And it's _quiet_, too.
That is exactly what I have, and, IMO it is a very noisy pump. Of
course, I suppose I could make it quieter by mounting it with rubber
mounts or in a vacuum or something like that ;-)
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
Although I personally find it amusing to read a certain level of EV related
jousting on this list, ill-informed attacks and touting consporacy theories
should be refrained from.
At 02:00 PM 19/03/05 -0800, Ken wrote:
He is full of crap as usual.
Now Ken, point one finger and the other three are pointing back!
Why are there no BEVs on the market? There is a HUGE demand for these
products John, but there is just an even LARGER reluctance to offer them
because of the collusion between big oil and automakers.
No Ken, not a collusion between big oil and the automakers, no (major)
conspiracy. Economic reality where cars are being made and sold at no
profit (to make them cheaper to buy) and making HUGE profits selling the
service and "genuine spares, so you don't void your warranty".
We know BEVs are low-maintenance and so do the manufacturers. Manufacturers
and dealers won't want to make/sell vehicles that they won't get much
maintenance $$$ from.
The free market rules, (blah blah conspiracy) They control this market,
not the free enterprise system.
Yes, the major manufacturers' control the market, because they can afford
to do the crash testing that the public demanded, government legislated and
the automakers fought until they had to do it. Better to lobby the
government to internationalise crash test requirements, so that an
Australian, German, Japanese, etc manufactured crash-compliant vehicle can
be considered 'approved' in the USA without re-testing. But I can see the
American vehicle manufacturers' figting that one!
If the automakers built (and offered for sale) a number of different
BEVs and marketed them at the same level they are pimping the hybrids,
there would be a thriving BEV market.
And no profits in maintenance for the manufacturers and their distributors.
So the BEVs have to be sufficiently profitable from the factory to make it
worthwhile - and Joe Average won't pay the extra.
Hell, in this country, they even removing the plug-in hybrid options that
they offer in the rest of the world! Why do they do this? Because they are
actively campaigning against the plug here and have been for years. Big
oil rules in America. Pure and simple.
Ken, your conspiracy theory has holes in it, there IS NO PLUG-IN OPTION
(that I am aware of) from ANY major manufacturer, anywhere in the world.
You must be thinking of the EV-only switch, which was removed seemingly to
get around a quirk in the american emission regulations that couldn't cope
with such an option.
So take your mocking attitude and personal attacks against good people
elsewhere John. You are wrong-headed and perpetuating hateful stereotypes.
Now, now, Ken. you are painting yourself with the brush you are tarring
others with.
-Ken Trough
Please, people. Keep conspiracy theories and personal attacks off this
list, and as important, be certain of your facts before you try and hit
others over the head with them.
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am **very** pleased to announce that the New Beetle has passed the very
challenging driveway test - it works! Back and forth 1/2 a dozen times,
checking out all circuits. All went well without incident.
Still lots to do: the interior, connect charger, power steering and vacuum
brake, and other small things, I expect to be all done by this summer.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken wrote:
> Our government
> is keeping real BEV alternatives out of this market by supressing
> domestic development (read no funding), and blocking the importation of
> other low volume alternatives from other countries through the domestic
> crash test requirements that cost tens of millions to complete. Those
> expensive mandatory tests keep any small players effectively out of the
> market and this is exactly how the large automakers want it.
I've never understood how it could cost so much to "crash test" a
vehicle. Lets say I build a new vehicle. I submit one(or a few) at
my expense for them to crash test. Seat belt the dummy in it, rig up
the cables, press the button, and look at the results. To reduce the
costs, they could have owners of the vehicle do all I mentioned above.
Then all they'd have to do is observe the results!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am disturbed by threads like the recent Ken Trough vs. Neon John
exchange. In response to a very long series of off-topic posts calling
for political action to save the remaining EV1s, Neon John said (in a
post containing other, more useful comments):
You're being mocked all over the country. It's really a pretty sad
joke to the rest of us.
and
Only because I am involved with
EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake cause the demonstration was
about.
and
Similarly, the image of an EV driver is that of a fruity left
coast granola eating tree hugging nutcake.
and
Something for you True Believers to think about as you munch on your
granola bars....
Then Ken responded (in a post that also contained good stuff):
Neon John never misses an opportunity to sling mud all over any
environmental cause or anyone who suggests that there is a larger
agenda at play here.
He is full of crap as usual.
and
So take your mocking attitude and personal attacks against good people
elsewhere John. You are wrong-headed and perpetuating hateful
stereotypes.
Anyone remember the old FidoNet commandments? There were two of them:
1) Thou shalt not be excessively annoying
2) Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed
Very good advice, I think. Following these commandments has done me a
lot of good - keeping me out of flame wars and keeping me in
discussions that teach me something. I recommend them to everyone.
We've all got something to contribute. We're a teeny-tiny minority in
a gas-guzzling world, and we need all the help we can get. If the EV
List drives off people like Neon John, we all lose.
Consider the case of our erstwhile pal, Meat. He was a real piece of
work - he was actually proud of being an asshole. He was abusive and
insulting. When he dropped into our midst and began posting, he
generated hostile replies, which caused him to escalate, etc. until the
feedback loop turned into an earsplitting screech that overwhelmed the
list. But when he went away, we lost something valuable. He knew a
LOT about legal issues and kit cars and was an insider in California
automotive politics. If the list hadn't set up the feedback squeal who
knows what we might have gained by now? And what might he have taken
away from us, into the real world?
OK, it's probably too much to ask the list to put up with Meat. It
didn't look like he was capable of learning to follow the Commandments.
But Neon John *is* learning - just look up some of his earlier posts,
and compare to his recent output.
Then: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/22596
Now: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/35857
I think NJ and the list can learn to get along with each other. And
frankly, I think we need him more than he needs us. The vast majority
of his posts are full of great information. It would be a shame to
lose him.
So let's all cut each other some slack, OK?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, John and All,
First John, why the insults and name
calling. It's uncalled for and shows your true self
and obsures your good points.
Why do you call people those names who
actually care about our country.
Do you think those who send our troops to war
so multinational oil companies can make great profits
while we paid $200billion last 2 yrs to subsidize them
and feed dictators, terrorist loads of cash is
patriotic?
We have over the yrs before you came to this
list received hundreds of false EV press releases
telling an amazing group of lies about EV's paid for
by the auto companies by PR firms parading as
scientific, enviromental, ect groups. Go back and read
Bruce's news posts from say 94 to 2000.
You are mistaken if you think the market is
small. If the 10,000 who have went so far as to build
their own EV's because it was the only way they could
get one, think of how many would buy them if they were
produced by a car company turn-key!!!
In Fla alone the market is probably 100,000
just in retirees who now pay $8,000-15,000 for NEV's
and golfcarts who can drive only in limited areas. How
many would if they could drive anywhere including the
freeway? Many would give up their reg cars!
Remember every EV produced was either leased
or sold with long list of people who wanted more
despite the hugh obstacles, prices they put in their
way. Look at the prices used ones are getting on
E-bay!
I agree with your list of good points of
EV's but that doesn't exclude the other enviromental,
national and economic security aspects of EV's.
I like the economic side of EV's myself as
many businesses know as many business vehicles are
ev's like forklifts, EV trucks and carts, ect that
have proven the low costs, reliability that EV's
bring.
That said if 100 EV'ers would just put up
$500-1,000 each we could start an EV production
company and start producing them. But no, they will
bitch but never do anything that would actually make
something happen.
I've offered to do it several times or help
anyone else with my knowledge composites and of
production of boats which is not that different than
EV's would be. And have given up on them, so listee's,
it's your fault as much as the auto companies. You all
could do it if you got off your ass and put your money
where your mouth is.
There is at least 5 different people who
could do it if they had some support on this list.
Start with a 3 wh EV and build up to a 4 wh one would
be quite easy.
Look at how the Sparrow sold and it was a bad
design. With our experience, a good design for
handling, 2 seats side by side and designed correctly
for ease, low cost of production, how far would it
have gone with good management!
I have a male mold sitting 7/8's finished like
the white mockup in the EV Photo Album waiting for a
couple of orders that no one will take a chance on. If
I just had 10 orders with $2,000 deposits each it
could be put in production with 100 mile range, 70 mph
and costs $14,000 each with AC, generator for
unlimited range as options!
Instead I have to raise the cash, design,
build 3 Wood/epoxy EV's to sell to raise the money.
This regretfully cost me 3 yrs delay on top of 3 yrs
trying to raise cash in doing the composite version of
my white mock-up. Had I known a while ago it would be
so hard to raise money for an EV production line I
would have done this earlier.
So either elect a committee, make a design and
put building it out to bid or stop bitching, it's
getting old,
jerry dycus
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > I think this is the problem with EVs. It's not a
> problem with EVs
> > themselves. The "true believers" know how to build
> them, and know that
> > they work. But (so far) they have lacked the
> marketing and manufacturing
> > skills to expand it into a going business.
>
>
> How about we utilize a presently existing EV
> company. Be it Cloud or
> Electro Automotive or someone else. How can we take
> EV's to the "next
> level"? What needs to be done that is currently
> not?
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
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Most likely, *any* new car would be harder to convert than *any* older
car. Cars have just gotten a lot more complicated.
True. But a hybrid adds an extra layer of complication.
Still, we'll have to face up to the problems sooner or later. What about
the Echo instead of the Prius?
Outside of the fact that it's butt-ugly, it would be a decent
conversion. It's light at 2,000 lbs.
How about a Dodge Neon? Sub 2500 lbs, manual trans, somewhat low cost
vehicle.
Yes, I like the Neon.
Other cars: Mitsubishi Eclipse,
Heavy - almost 3,000 lbs.
Chevy Cavalier(the newer ones),
Ok, but heavier than I'd like at 2,600+ lbs.
Ford Focus.
Back to butt-ugly. And fat at 2,700+ lbs.
Are you currently considering a successor to the Voltsrabbit.
She's been a tried and true workhorse but, especially up in the salty
North, they are getting harder to find good copies of. You mentioned
the Golf. Are you thinking about using those.
No. I will be able to offer some selected parts for the Golf, such as
battery racks/boxes (144V of 8V US Batteries) and motor mount. But this
conversion is WAY too complicated to offer a bolt-in kit along the line of
the Voltsrabbit. I had originally hoped to do that, but once I got into
it, I changed my mind.
We do have an AC Metro kit for those who want a later body style.
One of the reasons the Rabbit was chosen was that there was a long,
prolific production run, from 1974 to 1992 if you include the Cabriolets,
in which the body was virtually unchanged, so there was a huge pool of
potential donors. It also helped that I was intimately acquainted with the
Rabbit, having worked on them at the dealership when they were first
introduced, and in my own shop for years after that.
Nowadays, the manufacturers make significant changes every 3-5 years. One
small but critical structural bulge, and suddenly your battery racks don't
fit anymore. These can be subtle changes, not readily apparent. So you
end up putting a lot of effort into designing a kit that will fit 3-5 model
years only.
Picking a donor that justifies the effort is the first hurdle: lots of
available donors, popular model, good weight and physical properties for
conversion. The second hurdle is bankrolling the development: time,
tooling & fixtures, documentation as well as the actual parts.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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What if we took a hint from the open source movement with lots of people
working on an open design
First we choose a common donar vehicle to create a kit for, getting all of
us to agree on a particular model may be fun, but by the time we wittle it
down, it should be a well rounded choice.
Each "franchise" builds this "kit" and there would be approved people to
work on it in multiple cities for repairs or upgrades
we avoid car carriers because donars are aquired locally. We avoid safety
testing because it is done already, We don't sell cars, we sell the
conversion kit installed in the customers donar, which we also can sell
them as a component of the kit on a seperate invoice?
We avoid shipping batteries because of weight, but there are local
distributers. As a collective group we could make a deal with Exide for
example to standardise the price and make dated sets avail to the frenchises.
Been there, tried that. We had what we called the "Pro-Mech Program". We
trained professional mechanics (who paid for the training and travelled to
our shop) to do conversions. We had a couple dozen of them around the
country. They had the Voltsrabbit Kit (which at that time was a recent
model car). Know what? Not a one of them built a single conversion for a
customer. They would build one for themselves, and that's where it ended.
Good luck!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> It's not the motor; it's the inverter. If you can find a way
>> to generate enough kilowatts of AC, then an AC motor will match
>> a DC motor, pound for pound.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Let's say for example, Otmar builds an AC inverter that is equal to
> the Z2K. Is there an AC motor on this page that will do the work
Yes, of course. Read what I wrote above carefully -- An AC motor can
match a DC motor, pound for pound -- you just have to cram the power
into it.
> I was under the impression of why people throw on two or three DC
> motors is because a single motor of suitable size can't be had to do
> the work of two or three?
Sure it can be had -- look at Dennis Berube's dragster! It's just that
it's *easier* to use 2 or 3 ADC motors. They are cheaper and easier to
find than bigger stuff.
> Example: I can't make one 9" motor outperform someone's setup who
> has two or three motors? Can an 11" or 13" motor win in a drag race
> when up against two or three 8" or 9" motors?
Yes. It's fundamentally all about total motor weight. You need a certain
number of pounds of motor to deliver X horsepower for Y seconds. If you
need (say) 300 lbs of motor for a given value of X and Y, you can do it
with one 300 lbs motor, or two 150 lbs motors, or three 100 lbs motors.
Which one you pick will depend on price, availability, and other factors
(like which one fits the best).
> Can a Zilla not be "transformed" or "modified" into being an inverter?
Yes. Six Zillas = one 3-phase AC inverter. But the six would have a
power rating of about 3 times that of a single Zilla (because each
transistor and diode in an inverter spend at least half their time fully
off).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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At 11:24 AM 19/03/05 -0800, Gabe Alarcon wrote:
Thank you for your comments!
You're welcome.
They make me feel like I wasn't totally off in left field. Comment #4
about the handbrake drum was exactly what I was pursuing. The bearing
side load was also a concern for me but if an sideload can be exerted at
the opposite side, this would take care of that. I envision widening the
brake drum to increase surface area for a tire mounted to an ev motor for
sufficient traction/friction. The opposing force would be another tire
mounted to an alternator/generator for regen but will spin freely when
the motor is powered up and when regen is needed, bring the circuit into
play on the alternator.. This seems to be a simple setup. Has anyone
tried this?
I assume that you've read Lee Harts' comments.
If your engine bay is like mine, there is insufficient room alongside the
engine to mount a motor, so the handbrake-drum mounted pulley would almost
have to be the option.
A friction drive would be very inefficient, I know of no-one who has used
friction drive on anything bigger than a bycicle.
A 48V system could be do-able at not a huge cost or weight, for example
using a rewound 12V 200/300amp alternator as the regeneration element you
describe, giving around 50/75A of regen at 48V, with control of the field
by a combination of throttle position and battery voltage (turn the field
on at below 25% throttle, regulate off at full charge). A better (more
efficient and probably bigger) generator would be better than a rewound
alternator, depends on what you can find.
A 7" motor could probably be squeezed in alongside the gearbox, with a
golf-cart type controller. The controller would need to be able to be
interfaced to by a voltage signal in place of the 'pot', from a control
system that looks at the throttle and the battery voltage (fade the boost
as the battery drains down). The belts should be of a high-efficiency type,
the exact sort would depend on what space you have for them.
Have fun.
James
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I have to agree with Doug.
Initially some of John's posts really irked me, but
he has some really smart technical input and advice.
I think John could tone down his message a bit, some
of what he says I agree with, but other comments are
very provacative (John, tone it down?). I think Johns
input on the list is mostly helpfull when he
contributes to EV solutions (regardless of why he
likes EV's, who cares, he offers some good technical
advice).
I think if John and others hold off posting
inflamitory remarks and go back and read their replies
and think again it would keep the noise to a minimum.
I know I've posted some politically incorrect stuff in
the past, but after being on the list for 8+ years I
realize it doesn't do the group much good to spout my
political views (it is an EV list after all).
Rod
P.S. I love BBQ and granola bars (ones low in sugar
anyhow).
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