EV Digest 4215
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Yahoo EVList
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: GE Motor specs?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GE Motor specs?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GE Motor specs?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: GE Motor specs?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Yahoo EVList
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: transmission plate adapters
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Yahoo EVList
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Spelling Solectria (gonna be hard to google it when it is spelled
wrong after the first letter)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Question for the battery gods
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Question for the battery gods
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Question for the battery gods
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Big vehicle EV conversions, was: Rabbit replacement
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DC DC Converter
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Making your own adapter.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: RangerEVs
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Selectris Sunrise...
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Making your own adapter.
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Tires again (Got the new Tires)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: American business model
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Open Source & Getting more EV's on the road
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: American business model
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It has 4 new members and 9 new messages this week. There
are 144 members and 245 messages. Our list here is
much better. There's not much there to recommend it,
It might be worth a visit once or twice a month to see if
there's something interesting there that didn't appear on
our list.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: Yahoo EVList
This is something someone setup. It has 4 members and 9 messages. I
would
not worry about it. This is the only list I would watch.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: March 21, 2005 5:42 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Yahoo EVList
Rush wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
Redirects me too:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList
Sports?
Category: Archery ?
Description: chaumet watches chopard watches citizen watch ?
What in the world, why's it like that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
all right the question has been raised.. How many amps and volts would
you run this motor on?
Rod this is just a question to see what the list members would do.
I know we can only do so much with the GE controller.
Would a double string of 150 volt bb-600 nicads be enough?
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
M.G. wrote:
Rod is working on a modified controller for me. Do you think 500 amps
will be enough?
Frankly, no. The data you provided from the nameplate said 330 amps, 1
hour. To have reasonable accelleration, you are going to want a
controller that can deliver *at least* two times this much current, and
even 3 times would not be too much for 5 minutes at a time.
Also, you will want to raise the pack voltage to *at least* 72v, or
you'll never get enough rpm out of this motor for reasonable speeds.
And I'm not even a hot-rodder. Ask the racers what they would feel
comfortable hitting this motor with!
That's going to be a nice motor. You'll have gobs of torque, and easy
regen.
GE Motors
part number 8504667 AU1840
DC volts 36/48 Serial number OR-9-280-OR
KW 14.00 Rpm 1000 Encl of C
Duty 60 min Class H Amps 330
Model number 5BT1336B167A
No trouble! That's a *big* motor; probably weighs 150-200 lbs, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, 84V, 600A
On Mar 21, 2005, at 9:42 PM, Seth Allen wrote:
I have a Curtiss 1244 sep-ex controller, 72V, 600A. But probably only
good for a smaller car. Wabbit sized.
Seth
On Mar 21, 2005, at 6:17 PM, M.G. wrote:
I for got to mention this motor is a separately excited motor . The
fields have approx ten times the windings and use 1/10 the current as
a series wound motor.
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
M.G. wrote:
On Saturday I spent about 4 hours stripping out a scrapped fork lift
Does anybody have any way of possibly helping me figure out if this
motor will haul me around in my car that weighs approx 3100lbs in
ICE configuration.
GE Motors
part number 8504667 AU1840
DC volts 36/48 Serial number OR-9-280-OR
KW 14.00 Rpm 1000 Encl of C
Duty 60 min Class H Amps 330
Model number 5BT1336B167A
No trouble! That's a *big* motor; probably weighs 150-200 lbs, right?
You'll probably run it with a 96-120v pack. You'll want a
high-current
controller like a Zilla, not a Curtis; this monster can easily pull
1000
amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M.G. wrote:
> It gets even more interesting when I look at the controllers.
> I have several of these controllers and some are marked 600 amps
> @ 48 volts, but others are marked 740 amps @ 48 volts. I took
> them apart and the fet's are the same number, What could be
> different other than programming?
Probaby nothing but the programming.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M.G. wrote:
> all right the question has been raised.. How many amps and volts would
> you run this motor on?
300 volts(minimum) and 2,000 amps. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence...
Read the heading...
New within the past 7 days
But if you care to scroll down you'll see in the Message History Jan Feb Mar
Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2005 12 11 19
2004 15 2 9 7 9 13 28 21 7 20 16 6
2003 4 8 3 2 7 5 14 7
and if you care to clik on the members link, you'll see that there are about
140 members...
next time before you put the pedal to the metal... read to the end - get the
facts straight
But you are right - this is the MAIN list.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: Yahoo EVList
>
> This is something someone setup. It has 4 members and 9 messages. I would
> not worry about it. This is the only list I would watch.
>
> Lawrence
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: March 21, 2005 5:42 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Yahoo EVList
>
> Rush wrote:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
>
> Redirects me too:
>
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList
>
> Sports?
>
> Category: Archery ?
>
> Description: chaumet watches chopard watches citizen watch ?
>
> What in the world, why's it like that?
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's a pretty nice list of "off the shelf" adapters here:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
~$750 though..
...and worth every penny! I haven't regretted once having Electro Auto
make my adapter plate and coupler. Sure, it could be done cheaper - but
is that worth the peace of mind that the beautifully designed work of
Electro Auto gives? Is it worth the risk of getting it all together and
finding out it vibrates when you hit 4000 rpm? Worth it when you're
pushing it hard with all that raw torqe trying to get good 0-60 times
and having it break? I contend that the $750 plus the fun of packaging
up your tranny (if they don't already have the design on file) is worth
it.
Now I don't have any ties to Electro Auto other than purchasing my
adapter from them...but I've been so happy with my adapter that I'll
recommend them any time.
Speaking of time - just make sure you give them 2 months to finish it.
I'm pretty sure they are usually backed up.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Rush wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/
Should be:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Written communication and the internet especially is something where
spelling matters. Grammar be damned, and I am no Mark Twain! But for
the record:
SOLECTRIA
Seth
P.S.- googling on USABC testing of cars "back in the day" is
interesting... remember BAT?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry, Jerry, but for some reason my text got all smooshed together so
it was hard to tell where John Wayland's comments ended and where mine
began.
I agree it should be an all around good EV in all
areas. This is no problem though if you are building
them as you can put in anything you want in the way of
power, handling, ect. We have the talent, experience
on this list to do it all! In the EV part probably
more experience that anywhere in the world!
I agree.
For a long time, I've held my breath every time
someone, including Lee, raves about the
Solectria Sunrise, all because it ran so far on a
charge using hand selected,
cherry-picked, hand built NiMH Ovonics' best
So! We have never even said we would use NiMH as
they have way too many problems not to mention high
costs.
That was a Wayland statement, not mine.
But by the time this gets built, Li-ions would
easily match this range at an optional cost that's
reasonable.
Though for planning, Ni-cads would be better
suited for their long life of 20+ yrs, hardiness, cold
tolerance, good pricing of less than AGM's, along with
an easy 150 or so mile range in a Sunrise.
Ni-cad is a not starter, regardless of your convictions. They have been
tried, and have failed in the marketplace (from a support issue) with the
PIVCO, Th!nk, and a host of European EVs. Ni-cad is getting phased out due
to environmental concerns, and is getting surpassed in everything it has
been dominant in at one time (cell phones, laptops, and the golden egg,
power tools).
The military will be it's only home within 10 years.
I'm hedging my bets on Li-ion.
>From Jerry Dycus:
>Of all the EV's built the Sunrise seems to be the
best one if it can be put into
>production.
What on earth, makes it 'the best'? Other than an
Eff! While the first may have lacked refinement,
others seem to look good. If not it is easy to fix in
the tooling stage. It's combo of great aero,
lightweight is what made it do great range along with
hand picked batts.
Again, that was a Wayland statement. I agree the point is to make an
efficient vehicle so you can do more with less.
impressive range per charge, and
that's only because of it's enormous ahr capacity
from 'unobtantium' Ovonics hand-selected
batteries, this car does not excel at
'anything'...in fact, it is inferior to even
marginal vehicles.
Wayland statement.
It had potential to be the best
because it's "plan" was to be offered at something
reasonable, like $20K.
My statement.
If done in 50,000/yr lots with ni-cads with a 150
mile range there is no reason that couldn't be true.
For another $10k it could have Li-ions for the same
300 mile range and as the materials for them are
cheap. In the next several yrs li-ions price should
come down a lot so to meet the $20k price, 300 mile
range in 50k lots.
I'm not conviced the EV has to have a 300 mile range to be successful. A
solid 100 mile range with ammenities is enough. A microwave oven lives in
harmany with the conventional stove. They both heat stuff up, but each does
something better than the other.
I saw it again at EVS 14 back in '97 in
Orlando...sat in it, checked it out from top to
bottom, and drove it.
Even back then, Lee was going on about this 'car'.
Gotta tell ya folks....it looks like a 5
year old built this! It had a poor quality (at best)
Wayland statement.
It is a prototype! And as you say, probably rushed.
But that can be fixed easily.
And as for your comments on performance, we could
put any size power a customer wanted, No?
>From David Roden:
>The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a
much more sophisticated
>design than the EV-1.
(finger in mouth, gaggg) Better than an EV-1?
Wayland statement
I don't think David meant it was a better car than an
EV1. He said the design in some ways could be
considered more sophisticated. This couldbe as
simple as choosing an all composite body vs. plastic
panels on aluminum frame, or designing a 4 seater
vs. a 2 seater.
My statement
It's a better EV because it was much lighter, sat 4
people, good aero, much better range and cost much
less than the EV-1 to build by $100,000 each or
more!!!
The difference you talk about is a corp with
hundreds of millions vs one trying the same thing on 1
million. I think Selectria did very well considering
that.
Sunrise, wavy, ill-fitting body
panels...EV-1, the look, fit, and
feel of a quality import.
Wayland statement.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Thanks for your feedback Jerry.
Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was at the local Kragens buying oil for the Mitsu PU (uses 1 quart of
> oil per tank :-( time to convert it! )
> And I saw the Exide ng27 sitting next to the XCD orbital at $35 dollars
> less. I know it can't put out the same as the orbital but it gives an
> 105ah rating and a 625 MCA which is the amps at 32degrees F that it can
> put out for 30sec without dropping below 1.2/cell (7.2 for bat).
>
Are these "Deep Cycle" batteries? If not, SLI batteries typically last
less than 100 cycles in an EV, frequently less than 50 Cycles.
If they ARE deep cycle batteries, 12V flooded Deep Cycle batteries tend to
die in less than a year, even sooner if driven with a "lead foot".
I'd reccomend going with the Orbitals, but then I'm not a battery god.
Then again I did manage to wring two years out of a set of used (and
possibly abused) 8V GC batteries which is a bit of an accomplishment.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Are these "Deep Cycle" batteries?
They appear to be:
http://www.exideworld.com/products/marine_rv/nautilus_gold.html
Not much info on that NG-27 battery though:
http://www.exideworld.com/pdf/exide_specs_april_2003.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> it says 180 reserve, can't remember what that means,
"What is Reserve Capacity?"
"Reserve capacity is the time in minutes that a new, fully charged
battery will deliver 25 amperes at 80 degrees F and maintain a
terminal voltage equal to, or greater than, 1.75 volts per cell. This
rating represents the time the battery will continue to operate
essential accessories if the alternator or generator of a vehicle
fails. Put another way, reserve capacity is a battery's ability to
sustain a minimum vehicle electrical load in the event of a charging
system failure."
http://www.exideworld.com/faq/faq_marine.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay wrote:
> I like seeing a discussion about a big pickup conversion. It seems like
> there ought to be a niche for a short-range heavy hauler.
I was just thinking about this today. I think there are a lot of
people who either never, or rarely drive more then 20 or 30 miles a
day. Most people don't know just how few miles they drive every day
because they have never kept track to find out. I was surprised by
how little I drive each day once I started making it a point to
notice.
Plus with a full size truck, a battery pack of tremendous voltage
could easily be had.. I don't think 40 - 60 mile city range would be
out of the question either. I don't know about highway speed
aerodynamics though. But in some cases, the truck may never see
highway use, or maybe only for a few miles.
This company has some really nice catalogs with restoration parts, but
the prices are high. Still nice to browse through though.
http://www.lmctruck.com/
Would be nice if they had their inventory browse able on line..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
My previous company tried to do exactly what the list is stating they set
out to do. Before I showed a picture of our design, I asked what people
wanted. The list is made up of quite a mixed bunch, so I thought it would
be a good sampling. Some wanted sexy like the EV1, while others wanted
ultra utilitarian 5 passenger do everything SUV. I expected that. My
company had originally gone down the same thought process that is playing
out here, as it's been done before. Since I drive a 3 wheeled Doran, which
is classified as a motorcycle in most states, we first focused on it to
avoid crash testing expenses. But only a 2 seater is a viable option in
that design, and to get the volumes up (easily accomplished with one single
fleet order), we decided it should be a 4 seater for utilitarian purposes.
Besides, if you are going to pay more for an electric (than the equivalent
ICE), it better be useful to as many people as possible. Two seat sports
cars can command a premium because of their performance. However, to make a
performer like the EV1, the power train and batteries all have to be high
performance, adding to the cost. Since we were a small company, we were
trying to at least break even on the first 100 vehicles as we could not
afford millions in investment to be paid back at a later date through
volumes of cars being sold.
Since we were leaning toward a 4 seater, we came across this composite body
through another company that had started it for another purpose, but never
completed it. It had many of the design features of the Sunrise. All
composite, reinforced in critical areas, and light weight. When we first
drove it (with a gas engine), I think it weighed about 1600 pounds! The
front end that held the motor and front suspension was tubular frame and
bolted to the firewall of the main body "tub". In theory, this front end
could be unbolted and replaced with a natural gas engine, diesel engine, or
electric variation, as the car was front wheel drive. The design also lent
itself to be exported as parts and assembled in the country of final origin
(gaining all kinds of benefits). The car sat 4 comfortably in van-like
captain's chairs and had two little fold down jump seats in the rear for
those occasional short distance travelers. The battery pack (or fuel tanks
as the case might be) was housed in a large rectangular space underneath the
front seats.
My job was to come up with the different electric configurations as we
didn't know exactly which market we were going to need to target first, but
needed the body/molds to accommodate anything. I made the space large
enough for 12 LFP Chinese sealed lead acid batteries (all my options were
maintenance free) which were the cheapest I could find. Was going to mate
it to a series DC motor and Curtis 144V controller for the cheapest version
of the car. The space also accommodated Optima's, Panasonic lead acids and
NiMH, Ni-Zn, Zebra, and I had hoped Li-ion depending on the range we needed.
Ni-Zn could have been a good mid price version, offering more range. Li-ion
of course was the ultimate range (and price tag). AC motor selection was
never nailed down, but was considering around a 60kW system from either
Siemens, Enova and one from Italy called Ansaldo Electric Drive. This
should have been adequate for a 2500 pound car. Other innovations were to
remove the rear seats and offer a pick up truck version with a mid-level bed
with storage underneath (like the Honda Ridgeline now offers!). The rear
door (and it was more a door) was going to be hinged on the bottom and on
the side to act as a gate or a ramp (for wheelchairs if the vehicle was to
be used as a taxi). I believe several trucks from GM and again the
Ridgeline have this dual mode tailgate feature.
I saved many of the emails that people sent me offering advice on which
direction to go (as far as styling, component selection, etc), which may be
of value to those resurrecting this type of platform.
As for the Sunrise that was on ebay, it has already been sold. But I like
the lists' drive and enthusiasm and wanted to offer my "story"
For those of you who want to see a picture of the "Verve" click on
http://www.evoftexas.com/concept.jpg
We made a rear canopy for the rear. It had doors, but the side glass had
yet to be added.
It used a NEON windshield and front lights and bumper from a Taurus. Almost
all of the other parts could be purchased at AutoZone or from a number of
Taiwanese aftermarket suppliers.
At one time, I had posed the question as to what people would think about
just buying it as a glider and adding their own guts, kind of like an open
architecture EV platform, but surprisingly didn't get much response.
Marc Kohler
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
Someone [could not recover ill-quoted material] wrote:
The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a much more sophisticated
design than the EV-1.
(finger in mouth, gaggg) Better than an EV-1? I don't think David meant
it
was a better car than an EV1.
I think there are two fundamentally different ways to go, and nothing is
going to please everyone. You can go for practical -- a truck with
seating
for the family, or you can go racy -- plenty of power, but no GVWR left
for seating for five. Everything is a compromise, and there are
definitely
steps in between (a two door, four seater with power would be my halfway
point).
I think it might be better to throw out a couple of sketched designs and
see which ones attract attention. BTW -- has anyone figured out where
UEV (http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/products.html) is with any
of their products?
Here is what I'm looking for:
1) four seats. Two in the back for kids -- need not seat 6' adults
1a) anywhere, for that matter -- I'm only 5'4", and I'm the tallest
in the family.
2) 0-60 < 8s
3) At least 100mi range
4) <$40k
In some of my crazier moments, I toy with the idea of 13" Warps, and
unobtainium lithiums, and throwing the whole thing into a Noble. In
my more sane days, I'd like to grab one of the 3-door Saturn SCs and
convert them, and wish that Valence was shipping a U-charge system
with at least 50% higher energy density, and about four times the power.
Or an affordable Kokam with a BMS attached to it....
<sigh>
-Dave
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:42 PM -0600 3-20-05, Mark Farver wrote:
Ok.. update on Nick's DC/DC.
We did a postmortem, and it appears a power resistor attached to the
heatsink is fried. As in burn marks on the board, both halves of
the case split etc.
This is the same part that failed in my DC/DC some time ago.
The HV power section in the DC/DC is pretty straightforward. Two
independent IGBTs driven from the same gate driver chip. Each acts
as the low side driver for one of the isolation/step down
transformers. (For some reason the circuit uses two transformers in
parallel, I'd guess it was a cost/parts selection thing).
It's hard to get a single flyback converter to put out high power, so
it is normal to parallel up multiple smaller ones. The Todd chargers
did this as well.
A 50watt resistor is in series with the transformer/igbt circuit on
the high side, and a 30watt resistor on the low side. The 30watt
resistor blew up.
What I'm really curious about is what on earth are such high power
resistors doing in a switching supply? In series with the
transformer? Sounds like a very odd (and wasteful) system.
The PWM controller chip (HV9120) has a max 50% duty cycle. My guess
would be some event is causing the controller chip to freak out or
restart and leave the IGBTs in a on state for longer than normal.
The resulting short circuit blows the fuse, or the series resistor.
That certainly could be, but normally they are turned off in a
restart. It's been quite a while since I played with a 9120, but I'm
pretty sure is has a internal shutdown when the supply drops to 8V.
How is the supply filtering to it? There could be layout issues as
well that are letting noise spikes freak out the chip.
Or the large resistors could be undersized and/or there as a patch
for some other control loop problem. I really wonder what they are
doing there.
Hey Rich, you have a schematic, see any reason for a resistor there?
Usually the largest resistors in a flyback are the current sense and
some on the snubbers, but throwing away 10% of the energy in snubbers
sounds awfully high.
Anyhow.. the verdict is that the DC/DC is repairable. I'm not any
closer to an answer about what is happening, but a larger input cap
looks promising.
Does it have a noise cap from the input ground to the output ground?
You might want about 1000pF there. (rated at least 2KV)
If anyone else has a dead DCP DC/DC I'd be willing to take a look at it.
Mark Farver
I'm glad you're figuring out how to fix them, we need people to keep
the discontinued products running!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a feeling that an adapter based on a VW could be very simple if the
connector was a sprocket on bearings and just attached to the VW spline.
Motors would be connected cog or sprocket by belts or chain. If your hunk
of aluminium at this point meshed up with the tranny all you would have to
do is drill 4 holes and you are done. Am I wrong? You could put up to 6
motors on one adapter plate with some awsome hp. I was thinking of just two
forklift motors and a Zilla. Aught to be fun. Lawrence Rhodes.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, how does one get on the list?
David Chapman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:07 AM
Subject: RangerEVs
> > If you never leased one but want one now, they will be made available
> > once former leaseholders are taken care of. To be considered, you
> > need to be put on the list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Selectris Sunrise...
> I am gonna vote we keep this discussion on the list, It could be the
> biggest thing in EV's yet.
>
> it is on topic!
> Yes! Sure is! I love it when you guyz talk it up as " What can/ will we DO
about producing EV's. That one size doesn't fit all is a good starting
point. Jerry's 3 wheeler sounds like a basic poz cash flow type thing to
advance to a 4 seater, Sunrise if you will, other guyz like or want trucks,
the utility of the things, others bikes. EVen toyota and Ford don't offer
one vehicle. We need to organize, now as Jerry sez.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With awesome hp a racing VW tranny or Porsche tranny might be needed
to handle it.
Also watch for side loads, the tranny input shaft isn't really
designed for side loads like one belt would give it.
Otmar and Steve Clunn have built Porsches with twin motors connecting
to the tranny.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a feeling that an adapter based on a VW could be very simple
> if the
> connector was a sprocket on bearings and just attached to the VW
> spline.
> Motors would be connected cog or sprocket by belts or chain. If
> your hunk
> of aluminium at this point meshed up with the tranny all you would
> have to
> do is drill 4 holes and you are done. Am I wrong? You could put
> up to 6
> motors on one adapter plate with some awsome hp. I was thinking of
> just two
> forklift motors and a Zilla. Aught to be fun. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I know I sort of let the thread I started about tires awhile back drop,
and I did want to let you all know what resulted in my quest for better
tires for my Cherokee. So a little (edit: long but hopefully interesting
:-) follow up story:
I went to Discount Tire last week. The guy there tried to sell me on
switching to the 235/75/15 size to buy Light Truck tires instead of
passenger tires. I thought that most of the LT tires he was recommending
weren't good for this application as they had more aggressive tread than
passenger tires, among other things. So I did decide to buy the Pirelli
Scorpion STR tires. My reasoning behind it was that out of all the
passenger tires I looked at that came in my size (225/75/15), the
Scorpion STRs had the highest pressure and load ratings.
Today the tires came in so I went back to get them installed. I told the
guy at the desk that the Jeep was an Electric Vehicle and I wanted to
drive the Jeep into the bay myself. Though I don't think he knew what I
meant, he said yes I could go drive it in (which is what happens anytime
I take the Jeep to a shop). So I pull around and one of the guys in the
shop is waving me in. I pulled in and stopped, but he wanted it more
forward, so I crept the Jeep forward without sound. Now he's looking at
the Jeep and giving me this weird look. I told him "It's an Electric
Vehicle." He said something like "Oh, I see... I was wondering if your
car was stalled." Up went the Jeep's hood so he could have a look. As
I've experienced in the past; within 30 seconds of that hood being up I
had every guy in the shop gathered around my Jeep EV. ;-) I had just
enough time to answer the first wave of their EV related questions (you
know, the ones you always get asked) before the manager "suggested" they
all get back to work. (It was after closing time by now, and they still
had to finish my Jeep and two other cars). I guess he wanted to go
home... but not before he checked out my Cherokee as well! Okay, so nice
new tires are installed. As I left several of the guys were watching in
amazement from the shop as the not-so-small Cherokee left the parking
lot silently... and a bit fast ;-)
The first thing I did when I got home and the tires had cooled down a
bit was pump them up to their max pressure (50 PSI). My first
impressions of these tires is good. Now that they are at 50 PSI, they
seem to be doing much better and are not bulging out a lot on the bottom
like the old tires did. These tires seem very solid. Since I haven't
done much driving on them yet, I can't say for sure if the Jeep is using
less energy or not now, but so far It does seem like the Jeep coasts
notably better.
The only concern I have is that these tires seem to be getting just as
warm on the tread surface after driving as the old ones. I'm thinking
that some of this heat might be because the tires are still new and have
all those little rubber ends? things? sticking up all around, which is
bound to be creating more friction?
I suppose that's enough for tonight. I'll post more definitive results
after I do some more EV grinning...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Mar 2005 at 13:24, Ivo Jara wrote:
> I have heard that complete cars in china are about 3.000 US$ brand new,
No offense, but I'd guess that just about anything from Korea will be a
better car than anything from China. They have a lot more years of
experience building vehicles. I won't get into issues of relative wages and
working conditions.
The low-end Daewoos, Kias, and Hyundais aren't imported to the states. But
in Korea, they cost in the $5k range (sometimes less). About 3 years ago,
for example, you could still buy a Kia Pride, sold here years ago as the
Ford Festiva, with a 1.3L (I think) carbureted engine for about $4500. (I
think they finally stopped making them a couple years ago, alas.)
The question is, would any of the Korean mfgs. be willing to sell gliders?
And how much would import duty and transport costs add? What about US
FMVSS? (That's a concern with any vehicle not currently imported to the US,
regardless of its place of origin.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:42 PM -0600 on 3/21/05, Marc Kohler wrote:
At one time, I had posed the question as to what people would think
about just buying it as a glider and adding their own guts, kind of
like an open architecture EV platform, but surprisingly didn't get
much response.
I don't know about anyone else, but I generally don't respond to
those because, even though I'd love to get something like that, I
can't afford to. What startup companies need is actual investment. I
can't give it, much though I'd like to.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got to agree with Lee. For me, it came down to
_loving_ 5th generation Civics. I just think they're
cool. And I place a financial value upon being
emission free. I will gladly put my cash where my
mouth and values are, and not think about the cost--
to a point, of course.
I spend $9K + glider (worth 2-3K). That includes
$300 of cost overruns and some welding labor. Get a
1,500K tax credit, and call it an investment in the
environment, my science students, and having a cool
car that I can work on, if it needs it.
There's more: Add up maintenance and insuring
costs. For our 1995 Odyssey, (purch. used in '97)
we're at $28,000. That's twice what we paid for it.
Subtract what will need to be done with an EV: tires,
brakes, etc. Now imagine it gets totaled in an
accident tomorrow. I'll collect $8,500 for the Civic,
(on a stated-value policy), but only $5,000-7,000 for
the Odyssey, since it's a normal gas-burner.
Now which is the better investment?
(;-p
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ryan Stotts wrote [on converting a car into an EV]:
> > Right now on Ebay is a 1999, 5 speed, 2 door Neon
> for $2200. Add:
> > - ADC or WarP 8" - $1200
> > - 1k Zilla - $1975
> > - PFC20 - $1500
> > - 12 Orbitals - $1200
> > - 40amp DC/DC - $280
> >
> > So what has this $2200 Neon suddenly turned into?
> Looks like $8355.
> > [with battery boxes, wiring, E-meter, motor
> adapter and coupler,
> > labor...] Let's say this vehicle ends up costing
> $12,000 or $14,000.
> > would anyone ever buy it for that amount?
>
> The answer is, of course, that almost no one would
> buy a 1999 Neon for
> that price. You might be able to find a few
> environmentalists or
> philanthropists, but not enough to earn any kind of
> living doing it.
> That's why no one is doing it.
>
> Let's turn it around. What *is* a 1999 Neon EV
> conversion worth? The
> Kelley Blue Book Price is $4350-$5425. I think we
> can add $1000 to that
> for being an EV before you start to encounter
> serious sales resistance.
> Let's be generous and say you can sell it for $6000.
> You buy the glider
> off Ebay for $2200. That leaves you with $3800 to
> worth with. Is it
> possible?
>
> - ADC 6.7" L91 motor $800
> - Curtis 1221C controller $890
> - wire, contactors and fuses $250
> - Russco SC18-120 charger $690
> - 16 6v golf cart batteries $45 x 16 = $720
> - E-meter $250
> - materials for battery boxes $100
> - motor adapter plate and coupler $350
> - belt drive the existing alternator for the DC/DC
> $0
> - use the existing 12v accessory battery $0
>
> The total is $4050; we're $250 over-budget and don't
> have *any*
> allowance for labor. And, this is just a 96v system;
> a rather anemic
> "lead sled".
>
> The only way to get it any cheaper is by lowering
> your performance
> standards even further, using used or surplus
> components, and making
> many of the key items yourself (motor coupler and
> adapter, charger,
> etc.)
>
> As long as you compare the cost of an EV conversion
> to the same car as
> an ICE, you're going to lose. The price of the
> regular ICE version sets
> the "value" of the vehicle, and it's like pushing
> water uphill to get
> people to pay more.
>
> This is another advantage for a scratch-built EV.
> There *is* on ICE
> version to compare it to!
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> The question is, would any of the Korean mfgs. be willing to sell gliders?
> And how much would import duty and transport costs add?
The thought that comes immediately to my mind is logistics in regards
to gliders.
How do they get cars here from over seas? In a special boat that is
made for hauling cars? Then they pull up to the dock and open a door
on the side of the boat and drive them off the boat? Then drive them
either onto rail cars or onto truck trailers?
Are the dock people going to push/pull these cars off the boat? Or
will they be shipped in containers?
How did that "Jet Industries" company get it's gliders from Chrysler
way back when? Did they have to be rolled off the assembly line and
rolled out into the parking lot? It would be a real bear loading them
onto the car transporters I've seen:
http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/macneil/2004/jan/black_kw_car_hauler.jpg
Hmm....
http://www.auto-service-busse.de/images/fahrzeuge/Smart_5_x_schwarz_auf_Transporter__1_.jpg
Looks like Tango's too me but I guess they are too wide..
http://www.auto-service-busse.de/musterfahrzeuge.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:40 AM, jerry dycus wrote:
If Selectria doesn't want to play, it would be
easy to take a mold off of it and do the rest from
scratch with many more power, batt options if we can
talk the owner into it. The Sunrise's aero is very
good.
Or take a mold from any car for that matter. It's
easy, much easier, lower cost than building from
scratch and gives you sources of windshields, ect.
On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
What if we form a corporation. Each investor buys X shares of stock
to
raise $50,000. Let's say there are 50 investors of $1000 each.
The corporation buys the Solectria Sunrise currently being offered
for
sale. The car is then carefully reverse-engineered, thoroughly
documented, and the plans provided to the investors.
IANAL, but both of these proposals sound like theft of intellectual
property.
But engineers and scientists would call it business as usual. :-)
Probably not if those engineers and scientists work for a (for-profit)
business. Or more specifically, if the products they are copying
belong to a competing business.
We can't go around making exact copies of someone else's product and
trying to sell the copies. It doesn't matter that GM doesn't intend to
ever produce another EV1 itself. The point is that the design of the
EV1 belongs to GM, and if we copy it by taking a mold of the body or
duplicating its circuits or copying the code out of the ROMs on the
computers, then we are stealing GM's intellectual property.
And they can shut us down with a lawsuit we have no desire or resources
to fight.
The whole point is that you learn from others. The Sunrise (and EV1 and
the other recent high-tech EVs) represent tremendous advancements in
the
state of the art of EVs.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but the whole point of copyright law is to
allow a company to make a profit from their labors, and not to spread
the knowledge around until the copyright expires. Without that as a
profit motive, there would be less incentive for companies to invent
new things. Why should a Solectria or a GM spend millions to billions
of bucks on something that a competitor could just immediately copy and
resell without paying for the R&D?
Granted, this isn't the only motivation that makes people create cool
new things - witness open source software, non-profit organizations,
artists, and this proposal to get EVs into our own and everyone else's
hands. There's a lot of tension between people who want to tighten
copyright laws and people who want them loosened up. At the moment the
copyright people are way ahead. Witness the RIAA suing kids and
grandmothers and people who are already dead (!) for violating music
copyrights.
Learning from others is good, but stealing from others is bad.
It would be a foolish waste to just crush them
or bury them in some warehouse or museum, and never use that knowledge.
I agree, but this doesn't change the fact that someone owns the designs
of the Sunrise, the EV1, and to every other car on the road. If the
folks who own the design want to bury it, they're allowed to do that
and we're not allowed to prevent it. For example, you might think it's
a foolish waste for me to throw away my TV after it stops working, even
though you know exactly how to fix it. That doesn't give you the right
to steal the TV out of my house, or even out of my garbage can. All
you can do is ask me to give it to you, and I'm within my rights to
charge you money for it or tell you to take a hike. I can even throw
away my brand-new, perfectly working TV, and replace it with a much
bigger, uglier one that uses way too much energy. (Hmmm....)
If Solectria (or GM or Ford or...) had any plans to actually produce
these vehicles, then it would be different. But they do not! Frankly,
if
any of them did, I would be more than happy to abandon my efforts to
build my own, and would simply buy it from them!
That's a moral argument, not a legal one. Just because I'm not
watching my TV doesn't mean that I no longer deserve to have it and
you're therefore allowed to take it away from me. You need some sort
of legal excuse to get that TV, like I've stopped making payments on it
or I stole it from you to begin with. Or you need to convince a jury
that the immorality of my TV-ignoring behavior is so heinous that it
justifies you breaking the law.
Whether or not the car manufacturers plan to produce the vehicles we're
thinking about copying is not the point. In fact, the evidence
suggests that GM doesn't want any EV1s on the road even if it costs
them all the money they've sunk into the project to date, and even if
they can make a profit on selling them. They are likely to spend even
MORE money to make sure the EV1 stays dead. That probably means suing
the pants off of anyone who tries to resurrect it without their
permission.
The point is, THEY own the designs, WE do not. We will be STEALING if
we copy their designs without permission, or without making enough
changes so that a jury can be convinced that our vehicle is an original
work. Taking a mold of a car and selling exact duplicates is not going
to get past a jury. If there's a reasonable chance that someone could
mistake our copy for the original, we're infringing.
I strongly recommend adding a lawyer to the team ASAP, before anyone
does any work that will have to be thrown away as infringing.
Lee, I'm sure you know all of this, having worked for large companies
developing products. What am I missing here?
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
