EV Digest 4232
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Desirable amp hours
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Insurance for my EV in B.C.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: VW Adapter
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: article: Small car firm makes a big name for itself
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) =?windows-1252?Q?article=3A_A_whole_new_boating_catego?=
=?windows-1252?Q?ry_begins_=96_electric_boats?=
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Looking for Curtis 1505 (EV Warrior) schematic
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) BC-20 Expert Needed
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: article: Small car firm makes a big name for itself
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Insurance for my EV in B.C.
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Heard on the Jay Leno show
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Texas to New York using just 12 batteries!
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: American business model
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_article:_A_whole_new_boating_category_begins_=96_ele?=
=?Windows-1252?Q?ctric_boats?=
by "James A. Eckman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: American business model
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Esprit costing
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_article:_A_whole_new_boating_category_begins_=96_ele?=
=?Windows-1252?Q?ctric_boats?=
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Esprit costing
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Esprit costing
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Adapter plate Ideas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Crushed EV Pictures
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Crushed EV Pictures
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) How not to replace a Force heater
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: How not to replace a Force heater
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: How not to replace a Force heater
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Insurance for my EV in B.C.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: How not to replace a Force heater
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart writes:
>> With a boost converter based controller, you have a lower-voltage
>> battery pack and boost the voltage to the motor.
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> Boosting motor voltage by drawing more current from the pack, right?
Correct! Suppose you have room for twelve batteries. You might choose:
type volts @20hr @20hr @1hr @1hr lbs life
---- ----- ----- ------ ---- ---- --- ----
T-105 6v 225ah 1350wh 126ah 756wh 61 754
T-875 8v 165ah 1320wh 91ah 742wh 63 650
SCS200 12v 115ah 1380wh 61ah 722wh 60 300
Notice that they have the same weight, and same capacity (in watthours)
at the 20-hour rate. But at the 1-hour rate, the 6v performs the best,
followed by the 8v, then the 12v. The difference is small, but you can
see that the 6v battery delivers a little more energy than the 12v
battery, even though it needs to deliver twice the current.
Also note the life (quoted by Trojan on their data sheet). The 6v has
over twice the rated life. Couple this with the fact that the 6v is
usually cheaper, and you can see why it would be desirable to use it.
> So wouldn't you then run into the problem of these batteries (assuming
> you're taking about golf cart batteries) not handling high currents
> very well?
Yes. But the 8v and 12v versions have the same problem as they are
basically built with the same plates; just rearranged for more voltage
and correspondingly less amphours.
I think the slight worsening as you go higher in voltage comes from the
extra space and weight taken up by the case and interconnects.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been kicked around before, but in case you
missed it, much better to have a stated value policy.
That way you will be compensated for the cost of your
conversion, and not for the blue book value of a
replacement gas burner. "Remember the Aspire that was
pegged?" should be our rallying cry.
In my case, it meant a difference of +/- $30 over a
regular policy.
Best of success,
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So all you EV BCers out there. I want to insure my
> EV with ICBC, so I can
> do some road tests. The problem is, it is not
> really in the best condition
> for them to inspect (e.g. no interior other than a
> seat and a steering
> wheel). Since it is already registered, I just want
> to go get insurance,
> and then at a later date (when everything is
> perfect), I will go and get its
> designation changed to electric vehicle.
>
>
> Any recommendations?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I recently picked up a 9" GE with adapter and flywheel from a Bradley GTE
> kit. Since the GTE kits were based on the old Beetle chassis, I assume
> this adapter would mate up to any similar VW product. My question is,
> when
> did this mounting pattern drop from production?
-snip-
> Would these have the same engine mounting face?
>
> Basically, can I find a VW Vanagon that this will bolt up to, or do I need
> to go back to the earlier versions? I suppose this would also match up to
> a Porsche 914 as well, but finding one without serious rust problems seems
> very unlikely.
As far as I know ALL air cooled VW and Porsche engines share the exact
same engine-tranny mounting shape/patern.
I know for sure that the VW engines types 1-IV, the water cooled Vanagon
engines (don't know anything about eurovans), the porsche 911, 912, 914,
916(very rare), 935, etc. will all bolt to each others transmissions.
There are, however, a few different diameter clutchs and at least two
different sizes of transmission input shafts. However, you can just
switch clutch discs for one that matches the input shaft.
I'm pretty sure that the diesel vanagon also shares this pattern and I
think (but not sure) that the old 4-cam Porsche engines do too.
Wouldn't it be nice if all the other manufacturers would stick to the same
bolt pattern?
FWIW I /think/ the water cooled front wheel drive VWs share a common bolt
pattern too, and I /think/ that this matches the Porsche 924 and possibly
944. But I don't think this matches the aircooled VW engines.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
>FWIW, it must be a British affliction, because I
>suspect most Americans,
>including myself, see them more or less as you do. At
>best silly.
Indeed. But on a positive note, it is another EV on the road
for those this vehicle appeals to, even if I wouldn't want
to be caught in or near one of them. :-) At that price,
given it's highway capable, I do see it has having a sizable
market, if and only if the company knows what it's doing. $8
or so a gallon in Britain, and rising.
David Roden wrote:
>I can't find any specs on their website for top speed or
>the like, but I
>don't see any reason to assume that. It might be a
>perfectly capable car
>for use on the open highway
I do believe top speed is 75 MPH. The golf cart comment
wasn't toward its performance, but it's overall look and
style. It screams "recreational vehicle you'd only find on a
golf course". I can understand something like this in
Britain though, since mokes apparently have a cult following
which I'm quite ignorant of. It would be hilarious to see
one with muscle car performance just for the novelty, but
those things just aren't my style(Or that of many, many
others in America). Entertaining to think of a Zilla 2k, a
WarP 13, and a 300V pack of Orbitals in one. Move over TVR
Cerbera...
I'm still curious about its battery and range, whatever the
case may be. Not the most aerodynamic of things, so even
with some Li Ions I cannot see it getting more than 100
miles highway. The articles say its range is pretty good, so
I cannot wait to hear what it is.
>provided you stay out of
>the way of Hummers.
Isn't that what a saunoff shotgun loaded with dragon's
breath shells is for? =p
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't recall seeing this mentioned on the list, Johnson Controls is
bringing out a line of electric boats.
link:
http://gizmag.com/go/3821/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am searching for the schematic for the Curtis 1505 24V DC motor
controller.
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/a1.htm
Someone sent me a link for the wiring diagram, but I still need the
schematic. This is proving to be VERY difficult to locate.
Is there anyone out there who worked on the EV Warrior project and might
still have this schematic in a filing cabinet or something? Maybe one of
the original EV Warrior surplus buyers has it?
Curtis has failed to provide >any< data on it (even when approached by a
small manufacturer).
There are engineering types trying to adapt this controller to a new
project as we speak, but with the schematic the analysis work should go
a lot faster.
Any help is greatly appreciated!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If there's anyone on the EVDL who's technically familiar with BC-20
chargers, could you contact me offline? I have some specific questions
about the unit that probably wouldn't be of general interest to the group.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
>> FWIW, it must be a British affliction, because I suspect most
>> Americans, including myself, see them more or less as you do.
>> At best silly.
It's a ressurection of the "Moke", a version of the Austin Mini. The
Mini was a very popular British car; so popular that BMW has built a
"new" Mini, much like VW built a "new" Beetle.
The Moke was a Mini version with a stark utilitarian body, like the VW
Thing (remember them)? Yes, I suppose they look funny -- but so does a
Jeep.
Bill Towns made a similar vehicle body for the Mini he called the
"Hustler". It looks like a half-size HumVee, with a sort of stark
utilitarian construction-vehicle type of look. I've always thought it
was an attractive idea for people who like the WW2 Jeep look. He even
made a version with a wood body, for easy construction and repair!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As an inspection mechanic in PA even if the seats are not installed the
seat belts must be there if they were originally equipped as such.
Mike G.
Don Cameron wrote:
So all you EV BCers out there. I want to insure my EV with ICBC, so I can
do some road tests. The problem is, it is not really in the best condition
for them to inspect (e.g. no interior other than a seat and a steering
wheel). Since it is already registered, I just want to go get insurance,
and then at a later date (when everything is perfect), I will go and get its
designation changed to electric vehicle.
Any recommendations?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Two-eighty a gallon today when I filled up. To give
you an idea how expensive it is, today on Hollywood
Boulevard I saw a pimp in an electric car"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
comprehend what it means.. Here is the name of one of the masters that not
only understands but has also built the motors. Joseph Newman find him on
the web easy. You will be enlightened.
There is a web site with a 10 page paper written by a guy who worked for a
motor company that Newman took his motor to for them to make , I hope
somebody has this address, it is painfully funny .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I apologize for being so far behind in
reading/responding to the list, but this caught my eye
:
--- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Kia and Hyundai might be options, since they've
> never experimented with EV's,
funny. I was at the Hyundai R and D facility in
Namyang, South Korea a few months ago and there were
more than a few EV's around. Some Hyundai's, some
kia's and some others as well.
In fact, I understand Hyundai is in the process of
building a new state of the art facility dedicated
exclusively to clean car technologies (including, i
believe, BEVs, FCEV, hybrids and others).
>and probably don't have the R&D budget that
> Honda, GM, etc. have to go to fuel cells as quickly.
maybe not, but they are working on it. Hyundai is one
of the few foreign manufacturers participating in the
DOE Freedom Car Program and is putting 30 some-odd
fuel cell vehicles on the road over the next few
years.
In general, I think it would be a struggle to get
gliders from any of the established manufacturers.
There is little to no reason for them to play along,
and plenty of reasons not to.
Some of the new chinese manufacturers might do it, but
the vehicles would not be the same quality.
Did Solectria get those geo's as gliders from the
factory ? or did they buy them and chuck the engines ?
anyone know ?
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone interested in electric boating/conversion can go to Minnkota.
com and look at remote controlled motor E44 and E54 or Power Drive Bow-Mount
Pontoon Boat Motor.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: article: A whole new boating category begins – electric boats
I don't recall seeing this mentioned on the list, Johnson Controls is
bringing out a line of electric boats.
link:
http://gizmag.com/go/3821/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim wrote:
> > Kia and Hyundai might be options
It appears Hyundai owns Kia(51%). I never knew Kia made the Ford Festiva's...
http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2001/undersiege/koreatimeline/koreatimeline.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been contacted by a director of a non profit research organization who
wants to submit a grant to a local governing body as an addition to a
funding package. The people and organizations he interacts with are well
entrenched in the EV, Solar Cell, Environmental Sustainability, and
**teaching** areas. High School kids will more than likely be involved in
doing this conversion.
He is targeting a Lotus Esprit http://www.espritfactfile.com/ for various
reasons including a little bit of cache and a likelihood of availability.
His goal is to create tZero like performance with a range of 150 miles. He
"needs" the car to go 100 miles at close to Interstate speeds. The terrain
is generally flat with a few moderate hills. The car weighs around 3,000lbs
with a V8(?). His initial thinking is to use Lithium based batteries
although he is open to suggestions.
I have found a lot of Esprit pictures on the net but not enough technical
info to plug into Uve's Calculator.
This is some of the information I passed on to him concerning Lithium
batteries and possible size of a pack, etc. I would appreciate any updates
and especially corrections and clarifications:
*** Background***
The tZero (www.acpropulsion.com) recharged in 2.5 hours at an RV park
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) after going 302 miles. The tZero with 6800 lithium ion
18650
laptop batteries has
a range of over 300 miles/charge with a specific energy density of around
150 Wh/kg. The tZero is about the size of a Miata. I saw quoted that the
tZero used about 160 Wh/mile at 57.1 avg mph to drive from LA to San
Francisco http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf , slide 22 .
The pack was 50kwh. Not sure of the Lotus's energy usage per mile so I used
200 Wh/mi as a conservative number.
The RAV4E uses 301 Wh/mi (@50mph?). Small pickups are in the 400 to 450
Wh/mile range.
The Lotus Esprit would be a good choice for low Cd (coefficient of drag).
I'm not sure about how much room there is for the batteries, controller,
and charger/BMS.
*****On Lithium Batteries ******
For off the shelf Lithium batteries, the Kokam Lithium Polymer
http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm has good charge/discharge
characteristics. Not sure of safety issues. They are making their battery
in EV sizes http://www.proev.com/ (drill down to the Electric Imp Project |
Tech Specs). They are expensive!!!! From ProEV: "The 70 amp/hr [ed.
3.7volt nominal] battery is $362.60 each. The 40 amp/hr battery is $207.20
each. These prices are FOB South Korea so shipping is not included.
Discounts are possible for larger orders." Victor emailed me that they
were approxiamtely $4 to $5 per amp hr PLUS shipping from Korea. Using
these figuures, a
70 amphr battery would provide 0.25 kwh for $370 or $1480/kwh for a 5 mile
pack or about $45,000 for a 150 mile - 30kWh pack.
Valence http://www.valence-tech.com/markets.asp?market=5 has their Saphion
and are making the battery in EV sizes (http://www.evworld.com - about the
5th article down). Saphion technology is considered safe. The person you
would want to speak with is Marc Kohler
http://www.valence-tech.com/ContactUs.asp.
Here are some Jan04 specs from Valence: 48 V; 2.6 kWh @C/5, ~ $2500 per
module (or about $30K for 150 miles.)
dimensions : 21.5 by 11.85 by 3.44 inches (sized to fit a telecom rack)
weight : 64 kg, cycle life : >2k hours to 80 % DOD, Operating temp
: -20 to 60 deg C
LG 18650 laptop batteries are used in the tZero but I would not consider
them safe due to their chemistry with the possiblity of a rare thermal
runaway. ("Tom Gage [ed. of AC Propulsion www.acpropulsion.com ] told ET
[ed. Electrifying Times] that the Li Ion battery pack in the t-Zero has now
passed 20,000 miles and is not showing any loss of capacity.") At a online
battery site, I saw a price of $5/2Ah cell. That would translate to a
18650's pack
costing about $17K.
Here is a company that I understand makes the batteries for the Apple
laptops: http://www.flexion.com/ (I like the nail showing through one of
their batteries on their site.) Their battery is UL approved!!! I did not
see any EV sized batteries nor costs.
Thunder Sky is a Chinese brand http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm that
some on the EVDL are experimenting with and they seem to think that teaming
up the TSes with Ultracapacitors are the way to go for better acceleration.
Metric Mind sells these for $2 per amp hr. Not sure of safety issues.
Without the ultracaps, acceleration is not good. Without ultracaps, the
cost of a 30kWh pack is around $17K.
Sion Power http://www.sionpower.com/ out of Tuscon has acheived, in their
lab, 320 WH/kg from a LIS chemistry but I don't think they are ready for
trial production EV sizes. Double the density of your typical Lithium Ion
or Polymer battery would be worth an inquiry. The Sion Team is a spinoff
from Brookhaven National Lab.
************
The other part of the design is motor, controller/inverter, charger, battery
management system, instrumentation, etc.
I've read where there has been a lot of experimentation going on with BMSes
for Lithium. What would a good AC based system with BMS cost? What would
it cost using DC? Again, this is for a performance package.
************
At this point the fellow needs good cost figures to be included with the
grant. I can provide a decent ball park figure for a lead acid based system
but I'm not so sure for a Lithium based system.
I know your input will be appreciated.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Eckman suggested:
> Anyone interested in electric boating/conversion can go to Minnkota.
> com and look at remote controlled motor E44 and E54 or Power
> Drive Bow-Mount Pontoon Boat Motor.
Ah, but this is the world renowned EV LIST---why settle for the hum-drum
from the boating world's Detroit when you can make your own higher
performance electric cheaper?
First, check out the E-boat conversions at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/boats.html
My 6HP 36v electric conversion: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html
Next, if you're interested in going electric on the water, check out the
electric boat yahoo lists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/
I currently moderate both these discussion groups.
The ElectricBoats list now has over 800 members and is very active, with
lots of sailboat owners converting to electric---and the MinnKota products
just don't cut it for owners of 4000#+ craft who want to do hull speed.
Many of our members run with 36 and 48v systems and have been using ETEK,
6.75"ADC, Lynch and other motors for propulsion. We've converted old
10-25HP outboards (as mine is---8HP ETEK) and have a growing number of
inboard conversions underway and complete.
Thanks for the info on Johnson's cute foray into electric boating...but it's
not Johnson Controls.
-Myles Twete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The terrain
is generally flat with a few moderate hills. The car weighs around
3,000lbs
with a V8(?).
Yes, the last Esprits were 3 litre V8 turbos (they didn't sound like V8's
because of the single plane crank).
Best avoid, as they'd got pretty porky by that stage.
There were lightweight 'LS' versions, with both the 4 pot (LS200) and
V8(LS300), but they're going to be hard to find.
Go for an earlier car with a raplacement spaceframe chassis, custom built to
hold batteries.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a Esprit in lab for poking. Mid engine + gearbox + differential.
Uh... So bautiful place for 2x AC+ Elfa inverter + Lions + Caps. And
they all fit nicely in there. It would be ridiculously easy to find the
original balance which is superb.
I was looking for nice donor but when Lotus announced stopping
manufacturing the Esprit prices skyrocketed for exsisitng individuals. I
have a some pics and sata about the car and would LOVE to buy one (if
price would be in right place.) One carshop would really love to buy all
ICE parts. ( you can obviously see we are all in love in here ;)
Anyway... Lotus Esprit would make a real nice EV.
All never models do have V8. Some older models are available second hand
in mobile.de but prices are not friendly anymore.
Heck.. it must be good car since James Bond drove one... and even under
water...
-Jukka
Paul Compton wrote:
The terrain
is generally flat with a few moderate hills. The car weighs around
3,000lbs
with a V8(?).
Yes, the last Esprits were 3 litre V8 turbos (they didn't sound like
V8's because of the single plane crank).
Best avoid, as they'd got pretty porky by that stage.
There were lightweight 'LS' versions, with both the 4 pot (LS200) and
V8(LS300), but they're going to be hard to find.
Go for an earlier car with a raplacement spaceframe chassis, custom
built to hold batteries.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A generic adapter doesn't automatically mean a lower cost.
>
> CNC cost is setup + runtime and extra holes per plate means extra
> cost per plate
I would counter that setup cost will dominate unless you do a generic
plate because I seriously doubt that any of the EV parts suppliers
presently orders even a run of 10 vehicle-specific plates at a time. I
strongly suspect that adapters are largely built to order because no
supplier wants to have thousands of dollars tied up in a stack of
adapter plates that he may have to wait years to sell off.
In this case, a generic plate that fits perhaps 4-5 of the most popular
vehicles could be cheaper since a run of 10 is much more likely.
CNC runtime also depends on the number of tool changes, etc., so a
generic plate that has a bunch of pilot holes all the same size may cost
less than one which has fewer holes but has 2-3 different sizes of hole.
> If you have really small runs, the setup cost dominates and 1 or 10
> is about same cost 100 holes only a litle more
I seriously doubt that even a generic adapter would ever have 100 holes.
A typical bellhousing has perhaps 8 bolt holes to attach the adapter,
and so even if none of the holes coincided between tranny models, one
could still have a plate generic to 5 bellhousings with only 40 pilot
holes.
> Jig saw? OMG. I think if I paid $100 for an alum plate that
> had holes to drill and tap and a profile to cut with a jigsaw
> I would be disapointed.
It is not actually necessary for the end user to drill anything; this
could be done by the parts supplier when the end user specifies the
tranny they are using. The important thing is for the pilot holes to be
located accurately while keeping the adapter cost down (and ideally
reducing the lead time between ordering your adapter and receiving it).
If the supplier finishes the holes, this eliminates the need for the end
user to have/get access to a drill press in order to accurately finish
the holes.
Tap holes in the adapter plate? The adapter plates I am familiar with
have no tapped holes at all; perhaps you are making your design more
expensive than it needs to be. Tapping holes is a relatively expensive
operation, and prevents the end user from using the fastener
(SAE/metric) of his preference.
> I want to bring non-machinist weekend car buffs into the
> fold, They can use wrenches and... screwdrivers.
I really don't think it is unreasonable that someone undertaking an EV
conversion would be capable of using a jig saw to customise the generic
adapter's profile to their specific bellhousing, should they choose to
do so.
> With the profile cut with an abrasive water jet, the cost
> is about the same per plate
It isn't the cost of cutting the profile, but the fact that if one makes
a generic plate that fits perhaps 5 different bellhousings, then any
profile you cut will be wrong for 4 out of five end users and will
likely look worse than if the plate were supplied with a generic profile
that doesn't try to match any of the bellhousings.
This is what I would do: cut the profile such that the top of the plate
has the flat mounting surface you described, at a height that will clear
the tallest bellhousing that the plate has pilot holes for; then, trace
out all of the compatible bellhousing profiles on the plate and shape
the sides/bottom such that they compeletely cover the largest
bellhousing and otherwise attractively minimise the amount of material
protruding outside any bellhousing to minimise the odds of interference
with other underhood components. Careful selection of the 4-5 or so
bellhousings that any one generic adapter will fit will minimise the
plate size and cost.
> Is trimming it to the transmission the most desired option? here
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com I actally extended the plate upward
> to a flat so I could bolt a shelf or box on top and outward
> to mount to the frame rails for that wheel standing torque ;-)
Again, trimming to the desired tranny profile could be performed by the
parts supplier, as a value-added option at the end-user's option when
ordering his plate and specifying the tranny model.
I'm not sure that extending the plate upward to a flat is generally
going to be that useful (I suspect it is at least as convenient for end
users to simply have a shelf/bracket fabricated that mounts using some
of the bellhousing bolts. More useful, in my opinion, would be to
provide a pair (or four) 'ears' to facilitate mounting of torque
reaction arms between the plate and vehicle chassis for those who choose
to do so.
> I was thinking of standardizeing on a particular clutch, This is the
> most costly and controversial decision.
I wouldn't bother doing more than perhaps standardising on a single
flywheel, such as small-block Chevy, if you wanted to be able to offer a
single bolt-pattern hub. Pick a flywheel small enough to fit any of the
bellhousings that the adapater plate fits, and ensure that the mating
pressure plate is large enough to accept the pressure plate from any of
the compatible trannies. This allows the end user to use their clutch
disk with a SBC pressure plate/flywheel to adapt the tranny to the
generic hub.
I'm not sure that this is worth the effort, as the costs saved by making
the hub generic are small if the only difference is the flywheel bolt
pattern. Drilling and tapping the 6-8 holes for a vehicle specific
adapter is likely cheaper for the end user than buying a flywheel and
clutch assembly instead of using that which came out of the vehicle in
the first place.
Cost reducing the hub could be done in the same way as the adapter
plate: drill small pilot holes only for the 4-5 different configurations
supported by the plate, and have the dealer or end-user finish drilling
and tapping only the set that they require. This allows the hole
location to be accurately determined by the CNC/machinist while keeping
the hub cost down and allowing the possibility of a small run being done
at a time.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Can anyone point me to some non-copyrighted high resolution pictures of the
crushed EV-1s, Rangers, and any other OEM EVs? I am considering making a
page showing this current OEM concept of electric cars. :(
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike wrote:
> Can anyone point me to some non-copyrighted high resolution pictures of the
> crushed EV-1s, Rangers, and any other OEM EVs?
There are a lot of pictures in this:
http://www.becketts.ws/eaa/eaasv-forms/eaasv031905-gage.pdf
Says they are from here: http://saveev1.org/photos/
Don't know about any copyright issues though.. Might just need to ask
for permission to use them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Sometime back on the EVDL someone asked about cutting though the firewall
on their donor car to remove the heater core. I kind of poo-pooed the
idea, as most car heater cores aren't that difficult to access if you have
the proper instructions. Well, I was wrong. Some cars just SUCK. The
heater on my Force hasn't never worked since I put it on the road, so
yesterday I tore into it to try and find the problem. I have the factory
Geo service manual, so I carefully followed their instructions. To remove
the heater core, you have to remove the entire dashboard and steering
column! After hours of work, I finally got it all out. I then discovered
Solectria had found an easier way. They had simply cut a hole in the side
of the heater housing, yanked out the heater core, then inserted the
ceramic heater elements. Had I noticed this sooner it would have saved me
hours of labor.
Anyway, once I got it out and accessed it, I discovered the element had
failed. I suspect this happened way back when the car was new. The
heater blower did not work on the lowest fan speed setting, which just
happens to be the setting used by the pre-heater. Without any airflow, the
element would heat up, the over heat switch would trigger, the element
would cool, the switch would then cycle it back on. After several months
of this the element apparently failed. I have now repaired the blower and
replaced the element and just in time for warm spring weather. I have heat
now that I won't need it. :) Timing is everything.
It does appear there are times when simply hacking the heater box open
might just be the better solution. With a little care, one could even make
an access plate that screws in to allow future repairs if needed, rather
than simply sticking it all back together with copious quantities of black
silicon adhesive as Solectria did. You like and you learn.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
last time I had to replace the heater core on my Neice's Golf, I did the
same exact thing. After hours of work, I gave up and reassembled it. She
then took it to a shop, where the cut the firewall and replaced the core.
Sealed it right back up. Sigh.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: How not to replace a Force heater
Hi folks,
Sometime back on the EVDL someone asked about cutting though the firewall
on their donor car to remove the heater core. I kind of poo-pooed the
idea, as most car heater cores aren't that difficult to access if you have
the proper instructions. Well, I was wrong. Some cars just SUCK. The
heater on my Force hasn't never worked since I put it on the road, so
yesterday I tore into it to try and find the problem. I have the factory
Geo service manual, so I carefully followed their instructions. To remove
the heater core, you have to remove the entire dashboard and steering
column! After hours of work, I finally got it all out. I then discovered
Solectria had found an easier way. They had simply cut a hole in the side
of the heater housing, yanked out the heater core, then inserted the
ceramic heater elements. Had I noticed this sooner it would have saved me
hours of labor.
Anyway, once I got it out and accessed it, I discovered the element had
failed. I suspect this happened way back when the car was new. The
heater blower did not work on the lowest fan speed setting, which just
happens to be the setting used by the pre-heater. Without any airflow,
the element would heat up, the over heat switch would trigger, the element
would cool, the switch would then cycle it back on. After several months
of this the element apparently failed. I have now repaired the blower and
replaced the element and just in time for warm spring weather. I have heat
now that I won't need it. :) Timing is everything.
It does appear there are times when simply hacking the heater box open
might just be the better solution. With a little care, one could even
make an access plate that screws in to allow future repairs if needed,
rather than simply sticking it all back together with copious quantities
of black silicon adhesive as Solectria did. You like and you learn.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike (and other Force owners)-
You may want to check with Solectria/Azure about a retrofit kit, as
there was a modification for sensing no airflow to the heater (IIRC)
during the production run of the Forces. They may have a modification
for a safe shutdown if the fan doesn't turn on. This is all from
memory, though.
Seth
On Mar 27, 2005, at 5:48 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
Sometime back on the EVDL someone asked about cutting though the
firewall on their donor car to remove the heater core. I kind of
poo-pooed the idea, as most car heater cores aren't that difficult to
access if you have the proper instructions. Well, I was wrong. Some
cars just SUCK. The heater on my Force hasn't never worked since I
put it on the road, so yesterday I tore into it to try and find the
problem. I have the factory Geo service manual, so I carefully
followed their instructions. To remove the heater core, you have to
remove the entire dashboard and steering column! After hours of work,
I finally got it all out. I then discovered Solectria had found an
easier way. They had simply cut a hole in the side of the heater
housing, yanked out the heater core, then inserted the ceramic heater
elements. Had I noticed this sooner it would have saved me hours of
labor.
Anyway, once I got it out and accessed it, I discovered the element
had failed. I suspect this happened way back when the car was new.
The heater blower did not work on the lowest fan speed setting, which
just happens to be the setting used by the pre-heater. Without any
airflow, the element would heat up, the over heat switch would
trigger, the element would cool, the switch would then cycle it back
on. After several months of this the element apparently failed. I
have now repaired the blower and replaced the element and just in time
for warm spring weather. I have heat now that I won't need it. :)
Timing is everything.
It does appear there are times when simply hacking the heater box open
might just be the better solution. With a little care, one could even
make an access plate that screws in to allow future repairs if needed,
rather than simply sticking it all back together with copious
quantities of black silicon adhesive as Solectria did. You like and
you learn.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So all you EV BCers out there. I want to insure my EV with
> ICBC, so I can do some road tests. The problem is, it is not
> really in the best condition for them to inspect (e.g. no
> interior other than a seat and a steering wheel). Since it
> is already registered, I just want to go get insurance, and
> then at a later date (when everything is perfect), I will go
> and get its designation changed to electric vehicle.
>
>
> Any recommendations?
Just go and get a temporary permit for now; nobody will check the
condition of the vehicle.
You may want to change the fuel type at this time anyway, however, check
with the ICBC agent regarding the cost since this probably requires
paying to have the vehicle re-registered, and you may find that you end
up paying this cost again later when you get your plates anyway (i.e.
you may be able to change the fuel type for 'free' if you do it at the
same time as when you insure it for real).
I'm not sure how the inspection process works over on the Island. Since
you guys aren't subject to AirCare, ICBC may not even bother inspecting
the car at all. Over here, I believe they have a single inspector whose
job is to inspect any vehicle registered as electric to ensure that it
really is electric and not just someone trying to keep their gross
polluter on the road after it has failed AirCare inspection.
I have been told that ICBC will automatically revert your fuel type back
to gas each year (or at least they used to be in the habit of doing so),
so once you've switched it to electric, double check each time you renew
your insurance to ensure that they haven't toggled it back.
When you do insure it for real, make sure you purchase stated-value or
additional equipment coverage to protect you in the event of a total
loss.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Its too bad other manufacturers don't make the heaters like Skoda on the
Favorit models I have. On these cars/pickups the heater box is under the
hood. You simply remove the 12V aux battery for easy access, disconnect the
heater hoses and coolant valve cable, and slide the heater core out. I made
a dual ceramic heater the same size and slid it in, for both vehicles. (The
car and pickup came with gasoline fired hot water heaters that were causing
some troubles and I preferred to go all electric.) Apparently these
vehicles were designed to be fixed by their owners who couldn't afford
dealer/garage service, doing it instead curbside in front of their
appartment. I suppose that "design for easy DIY service" is not appealing
to our North American manufacturers.........
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 5:48 PM
Subject: How not to replace a Force heater
Hi folks,
Sometime back on the EVDL someone asked about cutting though the firewall
on their donor car to remove the heater core. I kind of poo-pooed the
idea, as most car heater cores aren't that difficult to access if you have
the proper instructions. Well, I was wrong. Some cars just SUCK. The
--- End Message ---
