EV Digest 4236
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Trojan batteries & longevity
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Adapter machine drawings
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Small regenerative motor question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Band saw was Re: Adapter Ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE Adapter ideas, take 2
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: NEDRA Woodburn Race Sunday, September 4
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Insulating rusty battery rack?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV digest 4235
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 4235
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Flooded batteries max current?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV digest 4235
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Yuasa surplus battery - help!
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Yuasa surplus battery - help!
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Belt drive VW bug kit URL?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: How to quiet an MR2 PS Pump
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Belt drive VW bug kit URL?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Was Re: Flooded batteries max current? Now: Chronic undercharge
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Tour de Sol - 100 mpg Challenge - National Monte Carlo-Style Rally
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A few questions
How long with proper maintenance are Trojan 125 flooded 6v batteries
lasting? I notice they are used a lot.
Is there a source for car battery sized nicads?
What are "Free Railroad batteries?" and where can you get them?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the input. I am thinking now that I am going to choose my car
by something I like well rather than just whether a kit is already made for
it. Better to do the plans myself and have them made up than settle for
some rustbucket VW Rabbit, etc.
I am considering a 95 or newer Chevy Cavalier due to it's superior large
front disc brakes and body integrity. I haven't heard anyone discussing
those but my wife had one several years and it has been a GREAT car. My
daughter now has it. I may look around for one with manual tranny.
The problem with a lot of cars seems to be lousy front ends, brakes, and
finding something nice enough you would want to drive several years.
I have been gaining a lot of info and enjoy the forum!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Adapter machine drawings
Mark Ward wrote:
Does anyone offer machine drawings for various transmission adaptors?
The idea being of course to get one made up by a machinist friend.
Most of the EV and custom engine adapter companies consider the plate
designs to be their IP. The upfront costs to design the first plate are
high, so you must amortize them over the next few. There is always a risk
that a particular design will never sell enough units to pay off the
initial costs. Selling the designs instead of the finished plates might
deny you the profit of copies made off a single paid set of plans. (The
machining is easy, the measurement and design is hard)
The EV adapter plates are pretty reasonably priced. It is difficult to
get a profession machinist to make up a plate for less, even with the
plans in hand.
The exception to this is where a hobbyist designs the first plate.
Perhaps they were unwilling to wait for the EV company, or had an unusual
design. For the hobbyist the plate is a sunk costs, so placing it into
the public domain and making it available to other hobbyists doesn't
costs, and benefits the community.
Once again, I would be happy to hosts a community site of designs. If
anyone has a a plate design, or a collection of measurements, no matter
how ugly I can probably make drawings and post them to the site. You can
license the design under some form of creative commons
(http://creativecommons.org) if you would like to retain copyright to your
work.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Anybody know a good supplier for small (25-75lb) motor/generators?
Sure, get a Etek PM motor. Costs about $425 new, produces up to 15 hp
peak, 7hp continuous, and weighs a scant 21.5 lbs (and it's high
efficiency too)
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=3516
Evparts also has a four quadrant regen controller on clearance. You only
need two quadrants, since you don't need to run the motor in reverse, and
it's a little under-powered for the Etek. On the other hand, under
powered means you won't accidentally melt the motor and it's only $265.
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=865&product_id=1103
Motor is rated for upto 48V (a fairly safe voltage) and the controller is
rated for 36V.
At 36V, you'll only get about 3-5 hp continuous, but then a small car only
needs about 10 hp to maintain 50 mph, on flat ground with no wind.
The motor is a good fit for your requirements, the controller is possibly
to small, but a good price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see where a "wood" blade will last longer on aluminium because the
default wood blade has less teeth per inch than the default metal blade.
Alum is softer and takes a bigger chip and it must be cleared or the
blade rubs more than cuts.
As for the depth, Look at my adapter plate, the ears to the frame do
make it quite wide. Cutting a basically round shape out of a rectangle,
eventually you are at that 45 degree section where the corner is hitting
and you get to back up and come in at 90 degrees to remove the corner so
you can continue. This doesn't happen all the time, the point is more
that it takes time, human, attended time. In other than hobby projects,
that spells money. The water jet , or laser, or plasma program and hit
the go button.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the laser cut had a thickness limitation.How thick were the
disks? by the way, the waterjet ran while I watched, under 20 min.
about $50
"here is another idea" done!
You are getting the jist of my design, I have a cnc'd motor bell that
provides the thickness and depth needed, this is to be standard across
all the designs per eletric motor,
the tranny plate is waterjet cut blank that is loaded on a cnc fixture
and finished
The fixture is constant and just the cnc software of hole locations change.
The water jet is the same cost requardless of quantities, just cut time
and can easily have 4 different adapters out of the same palte same cost
as 4 of the same. Again, the difference is software.
As for machineing an old block. On honda's this may be the way to go
because thaey are aluminum, but the cast iron ones just weight too much.
Also those side bars will unbolt so it is easier to ship. I toyed with
that idea, welded as a unit would be stronger, torsionally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bummer back to Sunday... I guess I'll just have to go see Wayland at PIR an
extra time this year for having to miss Woodburn.
damon
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: Ev <[email protected]>
Subject: NEDRA Woodburn Race Sunday, September 4
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:22:46 -0500
Hey everyone,
Get your watt rods ready. Woodburn will be Sunday, September 4 at Woodburn
Raceway in Woodburn Oregon.
We will have the gate and race time posted on the NEDRA site as that
information becomes available.
NEDRA 2005 Racing Season Schedule
April 9
Wicked Watts - Las Vegas
June 11
Power of DC - Hagerstown, Maryland
September 4
Woodburn - Woodburn Oregon
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
Power of DC Racing Coordinator
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I got my hydrometer out tonight (after finally finding it ;-) so I can
see what the specific gravity of the cells in my batteries is. I only
got a chance to measure two batteries tonight. The specific gravities of
their cells were:
Battery #1
1- 1.218
2- 1.225
3- 1.210
4- 1.218
Battery #3
1- 1.225
2- 1.238
3- 1.210
4- 1.210
Is it normal for there to be this kind of variation between cell
gravities in the same battery, or should they be very close to the same
value? I'll have more time tomorrow to (hopefully) go around and measure
every cell's specific gravity, to see what shows up...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Battery Tray Coating":
http://eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=1374&itemType=PRODUCT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Evan Tuer wrote:
> > Has anybody yet tried salvaging the electric power steering from a wrecked
> > Prius?
> >
>
> Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
> steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
>
Most 'electric power steering' for the newest cars, is far different than
'electro-hydraulic power steering', as is the MR2 pump. An electro-hydraulic
type simply
replaces an engine driven hydraulic pump with a one piece electric
motor/hydraulic pump
setup. These are great for EV conversions that as a gas car, had power
steering. Something
either needs to belt-drive the original hydraulic pump the ICE used to run (a
separate
electric motor or a belt drive from the traction motor) or, the old ICE pump
can be pulled
and simply replaced with the MR2 like one piece electric motor/hydraulic pump
setup.
In contrast, the newest 'electric power steering' units like the one in my
Insight, are
entire steering racks made for specific car models, that don't even use
hydraulics.
Instead, an electric motor drives gears that mesh with the steering rack
components...some
use planetary type gears. These are near silent, or totally silent, as is the
one used
with the Insight. They cannot simply be transferred to other cars, unless one
has
craftsmanship skills and machining and sheet metal type tools to do major work.
It's about
as easy as putting a V8 engine in the back of a car that had a 4 cylinder under
the front
hood.....get the idea? It's one thing to simply mount a small electro-hydraulic
pump unit
under the hood, connect hoses, and add fluid...it's a far different thing to
redesign an
entire front end to use a steering rack and all the other components needed
from another
make and model of car designed from scratch to use such a system.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally did it!
One positive reply and counting, from [EMAIL PROTECTED], somewhere in Northern
California with a Metro to convert. Hmmm...
We'll see where we are when we discuss range, power, payload and cost
requirements, and see if anyone is left. I'll keep you posted.
I sent Marc a warning message that he might be getting some 300A inquiries...he
said it would be public in January and wasn't worried about it so I don't feel
too bad.
I assume you're in, at some capacity...
Are you on the EVProduction list?
Chris
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> wrote:
EV Digest 4235
Topics covered in this issue include:
[snip]
20) Family EV Kit?
by Chris Jones
[snip]
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:27:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Family EV Kit?
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>,
EVProduction List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hello,
I am posting this to the EVDL and the EVProduction list.
I would like to work with others to develop a lightweight family EV conversion
kit that could be used in several compact front-wheel-drive vehicles. The goal
would be to use only custom transaxle adapters and body mounts for each model
run. Very crude sketches are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_assy.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_parts.jpg
In order to safely transport a family of four, enough payload needs to be
preserved while not jeopardizing crashworthiness. Without in-depth development
and testing, my approach has been to only fill the ICE motor and fuel tank
areas with EV components, and add less than 150 pounds. This should maintain at
least 700 pounds of payload without suspension modifications.
Such a kit would need to utilize a battery with at least as much combined
specific power and energy as Valence's 300A peak U1 format, and be just as
thermally stable. 22 Valence modules and high performance DC conversion
components would cost over $20K just for parts, and would only go ~50 miles
with ~80 peak HP to the shafts. But I believe it will meet my fundamental
requirements; and the safety, simplicity and cycle life justify the cost for me
-- even at these high early production prices, at least for a prototype.
My primary goal is to help and get help from fellow EAA members who have
similar needs. But if a business could be made of it, that would be fun -- as
long as the spirit remained "open source".
Considering this would be my first conversion, does anyone have any advice?
(I'm a test engineer and do have some automotive restoration and bicycle
fabrication experience.)
Is anyone interested in working in a group on something like this?
Thank you,
Chris Jones
Santa Rosa, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally did it! See b
One positive reply and counting, from [EMAIL PROTECTED], somewhere in Northern
California with a Metro to convert. Hmmm...
We'll see where we are when we discuss range, power, payload and cost
requirements, and see if anyone is left. I'll keep you posted.
I sent Marc a warning message that he might be getting some 300A inquiries...he
said it would be public in January and wasn't worried about it so I don't feel
too bad.
I assume you're in, at some capacity...
Are you on the EVProduction list?
Chris
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> wrote:
EV Digest 4235
Topics covered in this issue include:
[snip]
20) Family EV Kit?
by Chris Jones
[snip]
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:27:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Family EV Kit?
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>,
EVProduction List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hello,
I am posting this to the EVDL and the EVProduction list.
I would like to work with others to develop a lightweight family EV conversion
kit that could be used in several compact front-wheel-drive vehicles. The goal
would be to use only custom transaxle adapters and body mounts for each model
run. Very crude sketches are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_assy.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_parts.jpg
In order to safely transport a family of four, enough payload needs to be
preserved while not jeopardizing crashworthiness. Without in-depth development
and testing, my approach has been to only fill the ICE motor and fuel tank
areas with EV components, and add less than 150 pounds. This should maintain at
least 700 pounds of payload without suspension modifications.
Such a kit would need to utilize a battery with at least as much combined
specific power and energy as Valence's 300A peak U1 format, and be just as
thermally stable. 22 Valence modules and high performance DC conversion
components would cost over $20K just for parts, and would only go ~50 miles
with ~80 peak HP to the shafts. But I believe it will meet my fundamental
requirements; and the safety, simplicity and cycle life justify the cost for me
-- even at these high early production prices, at least for a prototype.
My primary goal is to help and get help from fellow EAA members who have
similar needs. But if a business could be made of it, that would be fun -- as
long as the spirit remained "open source".
Considering this would be my first conversion, does anyone have any advice?
(I'm a test engineer and do have some automotive restoration and bicycle
fabrication experience.)
Is anyone interested in working in a group on something like this?
Thank you,
Chris Jones
Santa Rosa, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm actually playing with a Basic Stamp 2 right now. Radidio Shack has a
kit for $80 bucks that contains a whole Basic stamp world. Very very neat.
My thought though is to use 50 solid state relays and a single A/D
converter with the relays controlled by banks of 4-16 MUXes. Lower power
coming out of the pack, only 12 volts, etc. It also removes the need to
have POTs on each sensor since you're using the same single point A/D
for all 50 batteries. And you don't need an optoisolator either since
the electronic relays provide the isolation.
For a display, instead of using an LCD I'm thinking about going with 50
bi-color LEDs and a routine to do the off=good, green-14.7 volts,
red=11.0 volts. That way one can see what's going on. A bonus of using
the Stamp is that it can strobe the 50 batteries and update the display
several times a second. And I can use an LED grid instead of 50 unique LEDs.
Working on it.
Chris
Rush wrote:
sounds like a real good reason to have a battery monitor
http://genki.home.ionet.net/BattMon/BattMonArticle.html
I'd love to build one, but for one set it is pretty expensive (about $500),
anybody else want to get an order together?
Rush
Tucson AZ
converting a '86 Mitsubishi truck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Flooded batteries max current?
Nick are you sure the sag is even? The real question is, do you have a
string of batteries sagging about the same, or is all but one or two
sagging a small amount and the remaining ones falling flat or reversing?
I have had this happen several times. The defective batteries seem fine
when checked with no load and seem to have good specific gravity, but slap
them with a couple of hundred amps and they fall flat on their face. When
I had trouble locating the problem battery I made up a 10 foot extension
for my multi meter with two large alligator clips on the end, then
selected one suspect battery and measure its voltage while accelerating
hard. I then repeated this with every other battery until I found the
stinkers. In my case the bad one actually went negative under load. It
was turning into a resistor. As soon as you took the load off it snapped
right back with everyone else.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, replied too early, and to the wrong address!
List owner, could you please remove this from the next digest?
Thank you,
Chris
Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I finally did it! See b
One positive reply and counting, from [EMAIL PROTECTED], somewhere in Northern
California with a Metro to convert. Hmmm...
We'll see where we are when we discuss range, power, payload and cost
requirements, and see if anyone is left. I'll keep you posted.
I sent Marc a warning message that he might be getting some 300A inquiries...he
said it would be public in January and wasn't worried about it so I don't feel
too bad.
I assume you're in, at some capacity...
Are you on the EVProduction list?
Chris
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> wrote:
EV Digest 4235
Topics covered in this issue include:
[snip]
20) Family EV Kit?
by Chris Jones
[snip]
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:27:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Family EV Kit?
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>,
EVProduction List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hello,
I am posting this to the EVDL and the EVProduction list.
I would like to work with others to develop a lightweight family EV conversion
kit that could be used in several compact front-wheel-drive vehicles. The goal
would be to use only custom transaxle adapters and body mounts for each model
run. Very crude sketches are posted at:
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_assy.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/kit_parts.jpg
In order to safely transport a family of four, enough payload needs to be
preserved while not jeopardizing crashworthiness. Without in-depth development
and testing, my approach has been to only fill the ICE motor and fuel tank
areas with EV components, and add less than 150 pounds. This should maintain at
least 700 pounds of payload without suspension modifications.
Such a kit would need to utilize a battery with at least as much combined
specific power and energy as Valence's 300A peak U1 format, and be just as
thermally stable. 22 Valence modules and high performance DC conversion
components would cost over $20K just for parts, and would only go ~50 miles
with ~80 peak HP to the shafts. But I believe it will meet my fundamental
requirements; and the safety, simplicity and cycle life justify the cost for me
-- even at these high early production prices, at least for a prototype.
My primary goal is to help and get help from fellow EAA members who have
similar needs. But if a business could be made of it, that would be fun -- as
long as the spirit remained "open source".
Considering this would be my first conversion, does anyone have any advice?
(I'm a test engineer and do have some automotive restoration and bicycle
fabrication experience.)
Is anyone interested in working in a group on something like this?
Thank you,
Chris Jones
Santa Rosa, CA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[snip]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:58 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
If you don't connect the AC line 'earth' connection to the chassis then
when (not if) your EV develops a leakage path to the chassis you will
most likely find out about it only after someone touches the chassis
and
completes the path to ground. Hopefully it will not be a fatal shock,
and hopefully it will not be a child or other innocent bystander who
contacts the car while it is charging in a public place.
If you are using GFCI then its safety will work without the frame
ground. GFCI measures the difference between the hot and neutral wire
(or between the 2 hots, or between the two hots and neutral for 240vac
US versions.) If the difference between power in and power out (from
the wires that are supposed to be carrying it) is greater than 5ma
(+/-1ma) it will trip. With a frame ground that results in NO shock
(its shorted to ground.) Without a frame ground you can get a bite, it
can be very briefly above the "safe" level, but if so it will trip the
GFCI. I've been known to lift my chargers ground to save the GFCI *In
my own closed garage!* (NOT in public.)
With the chassis 'earthed' anytime you plug in the EV, you are ensuring
that when a leakage path forms to the chassis, your GFCI (you are using
one, right?) will trip and alert you to the problem before it becomes a
potentially fatal situation.
This is right - the only way to safely charge! I believe in TWO layers
of safety. I only know of 3 - isolation, frame ground, and GFCI. Choose
any 2 (at least) for any public charging - I don't care what you do in
your own closed garage (but be careful.)
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found some "Yuasa PHX 12-350" batteries in a military surplus
warehouse just near where I work. They're at a pretty good price, but
I can't find any information about them on the web.
They are VRLA and weigh 77 pounds. Any good for EV use? How about PV?
I get the impression they may be for UPS / backup use. If anyone knows
more about them, please let me know :)
The 350 part of the number is described on the battery case - 350
Watts for 15 minutes. Doesn't sound too great!
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:16:46 -0800, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
>
> > > Has anybody yet tried salvaging the electric power steering from a wrecked
> > > Prius?
> > >
> >
> > Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
> > steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
> >
> It's one thing to simply mount a small electro-hydraulic pump unit
> under the hood, connect hoses, and add fluid...it's a far different thing to
> redesign an
> entire front end to use a steering rack and all the other components needed
> from another
> make and model of car designed from scratch to use such a system.
Hi John. I don't think it would be that difficult. As I mentioned,
there is a company who supplies these units "stand alone" (the same
type as fitted to my Corsa), and after a bit of googling I could find
people fitting these on to different makes of car, even Ford Escorts
(apparently for rallying purposes)
An electric power steering unit, mounted in the upper steering column,
does not necessarily involve any changes at all to "the entire front
end" or even the steering rack.
Yes, you would have to do some machining to match the columns up. The
wiring to the switches would need sorting out. No, it's not an easy
thing to do but then neither is converting a car to electric power, to
most people.
The advantage is that you'd then have quiet, efficient electric
steering, without noise, oil and wasted power. Sound familiar? :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:49:53 -0500, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a hazardous situation!
>
> For years I've had a concern that someday an EV hobbyist is going to have
> his car charging in the driveway when the 5 year old kid next door wanders
> over, trips on something, leans on the car to get his balance, and either is
> electrocuted or jumps away and hits his head on something.
>
> I've been saying for years that a GFI *is not enough* while others argued
> that it was plenty. This is more evidence in favor of that view. In this
> case Mike says the system is fitted with one, and he's getting shocked.
>
> Mike, PLEASE unplug that charger NOW and don't use it again until you figure
> out what's going on. I sure hope you don't have any neighbors or kids in
> your family.
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> > Imagine a PFC charger. Imagine it's + and -
> > hooked up to the battery pack. That's it! Nice and safe and
> > ISOLATED.
>
> If you're talking about Rich's PFC chargers, they are NOT isolated from the
> power line. I believe he now offers them with isolating transformers as an
> option, but last I heard he hadn't sold any. I guess most EV hobbyists are
> too cheap to pay for greater safety.
>
> Zivan, Brusa, and Solectria chargers are isolated, without exception. So
> are all (or nearly all) the boat-anchor commercial EV charges from such
> companies as Lester and American Monarch. I believe that Electrocraft and
> Delta-Q are isolated too, and I seem to recall that either K&W or Russco
> makes one isolated model. Yes, they cost more. How much is a kid's life
> worth? For that matter, if you're managing an industrial plant that uses
> forklifts and burden carriers, do you want to be the one who calls the
> electrocuted worker's spouse with the bad news?
>
> I'm afraid that someone will have to be electrocuted or badly injured before
> EV hobbyists begin employing more safeguards against electric shock. If
> someone does die, not only will the EV owner have that on his conscience,
> the EV opponents will have a field day and we may find state and federal
> laws passed that limit what we can use for charging, or possibly even outlaw
> conversion EVs.
>
>
> "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > With the chassis 'earthed' anytime you plug in the EV, you are
> > ensuring that when a leakage path forms to the chassis, your GFCI
> > (you are using one, right?) will trip and alert you to the problem
> > before it becomes a potentially fatal situation.
>
> FYI, a ground is *not* required for a GFI to catch a potential shock. It's
> supposed to detect any ground fault current sufficient to cause a shock. It
> appears that the GFI here is simply not doing its job.
What do your "GFI" devices actually do? In Europe, GFI / ELCB has not
been used for many years. Instead, we have "RCCD" - residual current
circuit device. This works by measuring the current difference
between the live and neutral wires, and trips if there is more than
20mA or so difference. The old type that relies on current to flow in
the protective earth conductor only detects faults and protects
against equipment damage or fire - it is not useful where another path
to ground is made, i.e. through a human body.
Either way, you definitely should have your car body grounded
(earthed), in my opinion.
If you don't, you have no way of assuming that mains voltage is not
present on the body of the car. *And relying on the breaker to
protect you in this case is definitely not safe. It might have
failed. You might be particularly conductive and be dead before the
breaker acts.*
I suspect that in Dave's case, the path to ground through him was less
than the 20mA or whatever required to trip the breaker - he'd
definitely still have felt it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aha, found some info. They're 350W *per cell*. And apparently they
are AGM construction. No idea how well they would hold up to deep
cycling of EV use, but I'm tempted to give them a try.
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 09:36:15 +0100, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I found some "Yuasa PHX 12-350" batteries in a military surplus
> warehouse just near where I work. They're at a pretty good price, but
> I can't find any information about them on the web.
> They are VRLA and weigh 77 pounds. Any good for EV use? How about PV?
> I get the impression they may be for UPS / backup use. If anyone knows
> more about them, please let me know :)
>
> The 350 part of the number is described on the battery case - 350
> Watts for 15 minutes. Doesn't sound too great!
>
> Thanks
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have the url for the belt drive bug kit being offered? Trying to
figure out where they are getting that pillow block. Also the belt seems
kinda small for an onroad drive. Comments?
Thanks David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In contrast, the newest 'electric power steering' units like the one in my
> Insight, are
> entire steering racks made for specific car models, that don't even use
> hydraulics.
> Instead, an electric motor drives gears that mesh with the steering rack
> components...some
> use planetary type gears. These are near silent, or totally silent, as is the
> one used
> with the Insight. They cannot simply be transferred to other cars, unless one
> has
> craftsmanship skills and machining and sheet metal type tools to do major
> work.\
Could the entire electric rack replace an existing hydraulic rack? Granted
you'd have to find new
mounting holes and the distance between ball joints would have to be
compensated for. But wouldn't
it be a similar enough animal that they could be swapped? Don't know, haven't
seen one yet. But
I'm willing to try. I have a hydraulic rack I'd like to replace.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Evan Tuer wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:16:46 -0800, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Evan Tuer wrote:
> >
> > > > Has anybody yet tried salvaging the electric power steering from a
> > > > wrecked
> > > > Prius?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Practically all smaller cars over here now have electric power
> > > steering. For example, a car I sometimes drive, GM Corsa, has it.
> > >
>
> > It's one thing to simply mount a small electro-hydraulic pump unit
> > under the hood, connect hoses, and add fluid...it's a far different thing
> > to redesign an
> > entire front end to use a steering rack and all the other components needed
> > from another
> > make and model of car designed from scratch to use such a system.
>
> Hi John. I don't think it would be that difficult. As I mentioned,
> there is a company who supplies these units "stand alone" (the same
> type as fitted to my Corsa), and after a bit of googling I could find
> people fitting these on to different makes of car, even Ford Escorts
> (apparently for rallying purposes)
> An electric power steering unit, mounted in the upper steering column,
> does not necessarily involve any changes at all to "the entire front
> end" or even the steering rack.
I agree with this type of unit. However, 'most' of the newer cars that have
electric
steering, have a much different setup than the one you describe. The one off an
Insight, for
example, is the entire rack that only fits this car. The same can be said for
others I've
seen. Some folks have a hard enough time using pre-made bolt-on tranny
adapters, let alone
having to redesign the front suspension geometry, design and create brackets,
and cut and or
move metal to make it all fit, to accommodate an electric rack from a totally
different type
of vehicle.
>
> The advantage is that you'd then have quiet, efficient electric
> steering, without noise, oil and wasted power. Sound familiar? :)
Yes, it does :-) I love Blue Meanie's dead silent operation...no vacuum pump
(manual brakes
came standard in the Datsun 1200), no power steering noises ((feather light
feeling manual
steering came standard in the Datsun 1200), and no gawd awful Curtis whine from
a funky
controller (silent DCP 1200...soon to be silent Z1K Zilla). I love the reaction
of people
taking their first ride! They talk about the erie silence, then I nail the
throttle and give
them the instant sound of squealing tires!
I agree with your idea, it's just that it could get very difficult for some to
do. The units
you describe are simple, the ones I've seen are anything but.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 06:12:31 -0800, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
>
> I agree with this type of unit. However, 'most' of the newer cars that have
> electric
> steering, have a much different setup than the one you describe. The one off
> an Insight,
> for example, is the entire rack that only fits this car. The same can be said
> for others I've
> seen. Some folks have a hard enough time using pre-made bolt-on tranny
> adapters, let
> alone having to redesign the front suspension geometry, design and create
> brackets, and
> cut and or move metal to make it all fit, to accommodate an electric rack
> from a totally
> different type of vehicle.
Yep, you wouldn't want to go messing about changing racks!
I actually wasn't aware there was any other kind of electric PAS
other than the type I'm familiar with - i.e. in the steering column,
which seems to be the default setup over here.
And I've not been lucky enough to get under the hood of an Insight yet :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.e-volks.com/about.html
It is an NEV Kit per Website. But they do have a
highway kit that looks to be the similar to the KTA or
Kaylor adapters
--- David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyone have the url for the belt drive bug kit being
> offered? Trying to
> figure out where they are getting that pillow block.
> Also the belt seems
> kinda small for an onroad drive. Comments?
> Thanks David Chapman.
>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you've heard, I've also been undercharging. Was
at 183V when I should've been at 190 over winter.
While they've bubbled, they've not been truly EQ'd, as
have only hit 1.265 SG with brand new batteries.
Have been driving, then trying to EQ a bit more each
time, in hopes of eventually bringing them higher
toward 1.275, which is where they should be for this
temp. Hope I haven't destroyed the pack in first 8
mos.! (Was complicated by cheap-o multimeter instead
of true RMS, and not wanting to toast my controller
which comes on with the DCDC/e-meter)
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Mike Chancey wrote:
> > I made up a 10 foot extension for my multi meter
> with two large
> > alligator clips on the end, then selected one
> suspect battery and
> > measure its voltage while accelerating hard. I
> then repeated this
> > with every other battery
>
> I did this test today, as Mike describes, which took
> some time to go
> through and test all 20 batteries. My results aren't
> looking good at all.
>
> I have three batteries which under 300-350 amp loads
> fall to 6 volts
> (one just a bit under). Plus, every other battery in
> the pack (17 of
> them), when put under the same 300-350 amp load, all
> fell to between 6
> and 6.5 volts. So not a single one of my batteries
> stayed near or above
> 7 volts (1.75 volts/cell) under this load. When
> these tests were done,
> the temperature was 75 degrees at the batteries.
> Also, the batteries
> were not fully charged.
>
> Mike Chancey wrote:
> > Nick are you sure the sag is even?
>
> Yes, the numbers show it is pretty even sag across
> all the batteries.
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > According to what you've posted before, you
> murdered the pack rather
> > early on!
>
> Yes, you've said this several times. I'm only
> persisting with this pack
> because I don't have the money for a new one yet
> ;-).
>
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > You will soon see what is going on - whether the
> whole pack is
> > sulphated and sagging
>
> If it is sulphated, is there an easy way to
> desulphate it? Is that what
> cycling it 5-10 times like you mentioned is suppose
> to do?
>
> > If the whole pack seems to be doing the same
> thing, then first check
> > that you are charging it properly
>
> I'm fairly convinced now that these batteries have
> been chronically
> under charged. I've now got an ammeter I can put in
> the charger output
> line, and I think it will confirm my suspicions that
> my PFC charger's
> timer has been stopping way to soon. I'll post in a
> new message about
> this once I have a little more data...
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick,
Is this after charging?
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:00:42 -0600, Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I got my hydrometer out tonight (after finally finding it ;-) so I can
> see what the specific gravity of the cells in my batteries is. I only
> got a chance to measure two batteries tonight. The specific gravities of
> their cells were:
>
> Battery #1
> 1- 1.218
> 2- 1.225
> 3- 1.210
> 4- 1.218
>
> Battery #3
> 1- 1.225
> 2- 1.238
> 3- 1.210
> 4- 1.210
>
> Is it normal for there to be this kind of variation between cell
> gravities in the same battery, or should they be very close to the same
> value? I'll have more time tomorrow to (hopefully) go around and measure
> every cell's specific gravity, to see what shows up...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact:
Nancy Hazard [EMAIL PROTECTED] 413-774-6051 x18
Craig Van Battenburg [EMAIL PROTECTED] 508-753-2431
100 mpg Challenge
National Monte Carlo-Style Rally
May 13-14, 2005
Greenfield, MA. - Mar 25, 2005 -
$10,000 in awards will be given to the most fuel efficient vehicles in the
National Monte Carlo-style Rally this May. The prizes will be given to
production hybrid or bio-diesel vehicles that travel a minimum of 150 miles, at
an average of over 55 mpg. A $5,000 prize will be given to most fuel-efficient
vehicle that breaks the 100-mpg barrier. Vehicles can start at any of 15
locations across US and Canada, and must arrive in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. by
noon on May 14, 2005.
"The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association has created this all-new Monte
Carlo-style Rally for people with advanced vehicles that reduce petroleum use
and greenhouse gas emissions" says Nancy Hazard, executive director of NESEA,
organizer of the 2005 Tour de Sol. www.NESEA.org. "Scores of advanced
vehicles will converge at the Tour de Sol finish line at Saratoga's Spring Auto
Show, to celebrate how we can reduce our need for foreign oil today."
"Gas prices, along with our dependence on foreign source oil, are on the rise,"
said Rep. Sherwood Boehlert, Chairman of the House Science Committee.
"Reducing our nation's dependence on foreign oil and promoting the use of
alternative energies will continue to remain top priorities. New York State is
a leader in renewable energy programs and is setting the pace for the rest of
the nation. Events like this are vital to demonstrate the exceptional
technology produced by U.S. engineers, to develop new solutions to solve our
nation's energy crisis."
Self paced Monte Carlo-style Hybrid Rally -
Entrants will travel to Saratoga Springs, NY at their own pace, starting at
any of 15 pre-selected starting sites across the US and Canada. Many entrants
have already registered from as far as Washington State, 2500 miles away.
There will be 9 categories of vehicles, with a minimum rally distance of 150
miles. The Rally finish ceremony and award presentation will be part of
Saratoga's Spring Auto Show on Sat. May 14 at the Saratoga Spa State Park in
Saratoga Springs, NY, at 3 PM. www.tourdeSol.org
TEST of NEW 30 mpg HYBRID SUV's -
A special challenge has been thrown out to FORD, Toyota and Lexus to see which
of the new Sport Utility Hybrids will get the best mileage with their new
SUV's. This is the first event that will demonstrate the efficiency of the 3
NEW Sport Utility Hybrids, which the public will also get to see in Saratoga,
at the finish line.
Self paced Monte Carlo-style Rally -
Monte Carlo-style Rally participants are invited to join at one of our numerous
starting sites around the US and Canada. After they have topped off and their
fuel tank sealed, they will drive to the finish line at Stewarts' Shops in
Saratoga Springs, NY. There, they will a free fill up with gasoline or bio-
diesel, compliments of Stewarts' and Environmental Alternatives - and we will
measure the fuel used. There are nine vehicle categories, and the minimum
rally distance of 150 miles.
After filling up, Rally participants will join the Tour de Sol, the clean
energy and transportation festival and competition, on Saturday, May 14 at
Saratoga's Spring Auto Show. $10,000 in awards will be presented at 3 PM. The
Automotive Career Development Center is taking the lead in organizing the
rally.
Tour de Sol -
From the drawing board...to the show room...to the customer's garage
"The Monte Carlo-style Rally is a perfect addition to the Tour de Sol," says
Nancy Hazard of NESEA. "While the Tour de Sol pushes the envelope so that we
can all have cost competitive, zero carbon, non-toxic, domestically-produced
energy and transportation, the Rally demonstrates what everyone can do today to
help reach that goal."
Now in its 17th year, the Tour de Sol challenges auto companies, students,
entrepreneurs, fuel suppliers, and government to work together, and design,
build, and market vehicles that can meet our transportation needs without
compromising our future. From May 13-16, 2005, the general public is invited
to see what Yankee ingenuity has created. In addition to talking with advanced
vehicle owners participating in the Monte Carlo-style Rally, and students who
have built vehicles to compete in the Tour de Sol Championship, attendees will
have an opportunity to see three new hybrid SUV's, Honda and Toyota's hybrid
sedans, electric bikes and scooters, and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. After
participating in Saratoga's Spring Auto Show, which is organized by the
Saratoga Auto Museum. On Monday, May 16, the Tour de Sol will parade to Albany
for a free display on Albany's Empire State Plaza.
The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA), and the
Center for Technology Commercialization are Premier sponsors of the Tour de Sol
and Monte Carlo-style Rally. Supporting Sponsors include the New York Power
Authority, the U.S. Department of Energy, Toyota, the New York State Department
of Environmental Conservation, Honda, and the Federal Highway Administration.
The Tour de Sol is organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
(NESEA), the nation's leading regional education and advocacy association that
aims to accelerate the deployment and use of renewable energy, and energy
efficiency. NESEA produces major sustainable energy events that inspire and
motivate large numbers of people to get involved and make a difference.
For more information on the Tour de Sol and Monte Carlo-style Rally
registration, go to
www.TourdeSol.org
or call 413-774-6051.
Monte Carlo Vehicle Categories
1- Toyota Prius Classic ('01-'03)
2- Toyota Prius ('04-'05)
3- Honda Insight
4- Honda Civic Hybrid
5- Honda Accord Hybrid
6- Hybrid SUV - Ford Hybrid Escape, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Lexus 400 Hybrid
7- Custom Built hybrids (modified or built from scratch)
8- Modified Factory Hybrids, including plug-in factory hybrids
9- Bio-diesel, and Clean diesel vehicles
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
