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To: EV Discussion <[email protected]>
From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: bay area ev tech
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:57:59 -0800
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I can recommend Brian Hall at Thunderstruck motors in Santa Rosa, 707
575-0353.� He's working on debugging my 93 Dodge Tevan, newly acquired
from NY.
Tom Driscoll
San Rafael
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From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:08:39 -0800
To: [email protected]
With all due respect to your personal opinions CopperLion, you need to
avoid political commentary on the EVlist. What unites this group of
people is EVs, political opinions vary across the entire political
spectrum (plus this list has significant non USA membership.)
Paul G.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:37:14 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: Troubled Batteries (was: Flooded batteries max current)
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
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As I understand it you have been chronically undercharging these batteries?
Using a timer to end charging?
Over charging, while not 'good' for batteries, is far better than
undercharging them. Add a couple hours to your timer.
As for equalizing them, the advice on monitoring the SG and continueing to
charge until it stops climbing is the best way. However, if you don't
have the time to do this, then I'd just put them on a 3 amp charge and
leave them on it for a whole day. Check periodically to see if the cells
are getting low on electrolyte and add enough pure water to keep the
plates covered.
Normally you wouldn't add water during charging (unless a cell is so low
that plates are uncovered), but do to the heavy gassing of a long
equalization, it's ok to add water.
Only add water AFTER a full charge (unless plates are exposed), i.e. after
the bulk charge is complete and sometime after gassing has started.
Once you've completed equalization, add water to the proper level for your
cells (1/4" below bottom of fill tube?)
> Hi,
>
> I again charged my batteries (supposedly fully) last night as usual.
> They then sat for 24 hours with NO loads on them, at which point I took
> SG measurements of the cells. I measured all but four batteries, which
> are harder to access than the rest. The numbers look pretty bad:
>
> Batt#: Cell1 Cell2 Cell3 Cell4
> 1 1.250 1.225 1.270 1.250
> 2 1.250 1.225 1.238 1.225
> 3 1.250 1.238 1.260 1.260
> 4 1.225 1.238 1.250 1.250
> -- -- -- -- --
> 9 1.250 1.225 1.225 1.238
> 10 1.270 1.225 1.225 1.238
> 11 1.250 1.250 1.225 1.238
> 12 1.250 1.250 1.250 1.250
> 13 1.225 1.250 1.238 1.238
> 14 1.238 1.250 1.225 1.225
> 15 1.250 1.220 1.250 1.238
> 16 1.225 1.250 1.250 1.250
> 17 1.225 1.250 1.225 1.250
> 18 1.250 1.238 1.225 1.238
> 19 1.238 1.225 1.238 1.270
> 20 1.250 1.238 1.225 1.250
>
> I was reading Trojan's website regarding equilization and saw this: "It
> [equaliziation] reverses the buildup of negative chemical effects like
> stratification, a condition where acid concentration is greater at the
> bottom of the battery than at the top. Equalizing also helps to remove
> sulfate crystals that might have built up on the plates. If left
> unchecked, this condition, called sulfation, will reduce the overall
> capacity of the battery."
>
> I guess I'll put them on an eq. charge tonight to try and rescue them.
> What I need to know is if one eq. charge is supposed to make things
> right, or will they need to be cycled and charged and equalized several
> times? I'm needing to drive my Jeep to our Texas EV show this Friday and
> Saturday, so am trying to figure out how to get my batteries in better
> shape in the next couple of days (because my range has decreased
> lately). I am hopeful that an eq. charge will help...
>
> P.S. What is a good current for the equalization charge? I'm guessing
> around 5 amps or so... something lower?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:02:04 +1000
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To do the job properly requires an investment in renewable energy. I
don't trust the power companies so I have my own independent solar
system (3kW). It is not enough to charge EV batteries all year round so
another 1.6kW is needed. This shuts up the folk who say you are
transferring the pollution to the power station but we have discussed
this before.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, 31 March 2005 1:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
Ryan,
Normally I stick to the technical topics, but I notice that all your
replies
are mostly about money and had to chime in.
Your thread points to a real frustrating issue with our society. Most
people are concerned about their own pocketbook and how it impacts their
own
selfish world. Most people don't really care about their impact on the
world or their environment around them. Most people are also short term
thinkers and do not care about long term or the big picture.
I am building an EV not because it is cheaper (which many have shown it
is
not, most of all my conversion), but because I am sick and tired of all
the
pollution I am creating. I also very much enjoy the conversion work.
So it
has a selfish benefit as well as a environmental benefit. (OT: some may
argue that both are selfish motivations).
If the people you are trying to convince only care about their own
selves,
then I doubt you will be able to convince them. However if they do care
about others and the environment, then you may be able to show them a
valid
reason. However, if this is the case, they probably only have one car
and
it might be a Geo Metro or a Smart car, or maybe they just ride a bike
or
walk.
I focus my EV evangelism efforts on people who are environmentally
minded,
do not mind the added expense to go "green" and, maybe, are also
technically
capable of doing a conversion (or are willing to fork out the cash to
have a
conversion done for them).
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: March 29, 2005 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: "Convincing" others that EV's are better
The other night, my parents fueled up their '98 Jeep Cherokee with an
inline
6. Costs right about $40 to fill it up. It's very likely it gets
filled up
once a week. Some weeks, it's also very likely that it gets fueled up
twice.
For our estimate here, lets go with the once a week number. $2,080 a
year
in fuel costs. If the vehicle was converted over to say a 144v DC setup
using either Optima's or AGM Exides, about how many years could they be
expected to last? 3 or 4?
3 or 4 years of fuel is $6,240 or $8,320 vs's ~$1200 for a new 144v
pack.
Looks like an obvious solution right? Well here is the rub: The upfront
conversion costs. Any time I start to talk highly about electric and
how
much better it is, I always get asked "how much will it cost me to
convert?". You all know how much it can be..
If they are sensible and once they get over the "sticker shock", they
start
doing the math to see how many years it will take for the conversion to
pay
for itself in fuel savings.
Anyone on this list doesn't need any convincing electric is the best
solution for multiple reasons. But for these people who apparently
don't
much mind paying ~$2/gal and polluting the air, etc; is there just no
way to
win them over short of having a real fuel shortage?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:28:45 +0100
From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
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Hi David,
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:02:08 -0500, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I Hope that AC ground wire really does get back to earth!
>
> I think there may be some misunderstanding among some folks reading the list
> about the purpose and function of a grounding and earthing in an electrical
> system, and what they're good for.
> GROUNDING: As I understand it, the primary function of an equipment ground
> (the green or bare wire) in your house's electrical system is to guard
> against a dangerous situation which would arise if something metallic that
> people can touch, such as the metal frame of an appliance, should
> accidentally come in contact with a hot conductor.
> EARTHING: Again, according to what I've read, the primary reason that the
> power system is earthed (I use the UK / CA term in the hopes that it will
> help reduce confusion) is to help protect the power grid and house from
> lightning strikes and induced voltage therefrom.
You're right, it's confusing, and I didn't realise that a distinction
was being made between them. This may confuse matters, but please
bear with me because there's an EV related bit at the end.
Here in the UK, I am pretty sure that we use the term "earthing" to cover:
1) The protective earth conductor (green/yellow wire) that is
connected to the case of any equipment that is not double insulated -
e.g. PC case. Otherwise known as "equipment earthing" - apparently
the same as "grounding" from your description.
2) The practice of connecting any water pipes and other metalwork to
the earth conductor as mentioned above. Known as "equipotential
bonding". This is to make sure that these pieces of metalwork, which
are usually connected to The Earth quite well if the water main is a
buried metal pipe for example, have the same potential as the earth
conductor even in the event of a fault - i.e. that conductor carrying
a lot of current.
3) the point at which this conductor is taken to gound - sometimes
back at the substation, sometimes by a metal spike into the ground
at your premesis. In the UK, all the networks are PME - "protective
multiple earthing", which basically means that the neutral and earth
wires are frequently bonded to The Earth by a metal spike.
(I use "The Earth" to represent the surface of the planet - to avoid
using the word ground!)
There's a good reason for this PME arrangement. If neutral and live
are left floating, where's your return path for the protective earth
mentioned above? And what's to prevent live and neutral rising to
thousands of volts relative to The Earth if a fault occurs further
back up the system (such as a tree falling against a line), or
lightning strike as you mentioned.
That said, it is about the most complicated area of electrical
installations - there's about 5 seperate earthing strategies here in
the UK, and plenty of serious ways to get it wrong!
With respect to EVs (and campervans) connected to the mains, I've just
realised that there is a possible problem with connecting the body to
the green wire. What happens if there is a fault and the earth
conductor potential rises with respect to The Earth, and you are
completing a circuit between the door handle and the ground? Such a
risk does exist - it is why window frames are specifically excluded
from the equipotential scheme mentioned above - in case a window
cleaner on a metal ladder completes the circuit!
This may be the technical reasoning behind the use of the magnecharger.
However, the risk from a non-isolated charger, non-insulated car
electrics and a non-earthed EV is MUCH MUCH higher, it's an accident
waiting to happen, whether you have an RCD or not.
Regards
Evan
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:43:30 -0800
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hi frequency xfmrs, was Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
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David Chapman wrote:
> I have a bunch of aircraft transformers (hi freq, 400 hz I believe)
> that I have thought would be neat for isolation, but how would these
> work in a 50-60 Hz charger scheme?
The max AC voltage for each winding is proportional to frequency. For
example, a 120vac 400hz primary is the same as a 120vac x (60hz/400hz) =
18 volt primary at 60 hz. So, you need 7 of these transformers with
their windings all in series to run on 60hz (18vac x 7 = 126vac).
> Some type of frequency "booster" then the xfmr then a hi frequency
> charger?
You could do it this way, too. An AC-to-AC converter is called a
"cycloconverter".
The simplest kind is a phase-controlled light dimmer. It switches on/off
to provide a narrow "sliver" of the AC line voltage that is the same
width as a half cycle of 400 Hz. They have a capacitor in series with
the primary as well, to prevent any DC offset current and to force the
current back to zero after another half-cycle at 400hz so the triac can
be pulsed on again. These are cheap, but deliver less than half the
transformer's rated power.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Convincing others that EV's are better
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:24:25 -0500
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Check around the building for gardeners outlets. I always have fairly good
luck with that. Sometimes there are alternate outlets in the light bases in
the parking lot. I have a watt-meter to pay back juice quarterly (or buy
office supplies equivalent if they don't have accounting). You don't want
to be the "company problem child". I periodically have employees come up
and ask me if I'm getting free fillups
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Convincing others that EV's are better
> << BTW, PG&E has a program for EV chargeing that is only $.05 /kwh , You
> agrre to have a seperate meter that is only used between midnight and 7 am
>>
>
> Never was consideration in my equation, since I work nights and don't even
get
> home until after 7am! Add to that an employer with no electrical outlets
> anywhere in the parking lot.
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Clutchless
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:31:23 -0600
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <
Hello Steve,
>In making a Lovejoy adapter, how do you support the end of the transmission
>pilot shaft that is normally inserted into a pilot bushing so it does not
>flop around.
So far all the front wheel drive cars I've seen , the transmission shaft
has no flop at all , . On the very last one I did , I did have the pilot
shaft go all the way through and into the motor shaft , The net gain motors
have a hole in the end of the drive shaft for a pilot bushing , I've forgot
the size , but I took it up with a brass bushing , once this is together
these shafts will stay together and not turn inside as the coupler keeps
them together. I remember thinking " this looks like It would line up the
motor and tranny pretty well" but I still clamped the tranny plate and
motor plate together and spun the motor , then taped on one plate to move
things around and listened for the spot where it was the quietest , . The
tranny on the 300zx had a lot of flop , but I made a fly wheel hub for that
one with the pilot bearing in it .
Does the pilot shaft extended all the way thru the Lovejoy to a pilot
bushing that is on the motor shaft?
When my transmission is remove from a motor or engine, my pilot shaft has a
lot of movement when it is not supported.
I would say you have to support the pilot shaft on these type of trannys ,
I'm still trying different thing out , and it seems each time I do something
a little different . I seem to get a new idea after I'm done .
I had this idea last time , since I'm using the motor as the lathe , take a
1/2 piece of aluminum plate , bolt it to a taper lock hub/ (This could be a
gear , ) and cut a fly wheel from it , now you have a round flat plate
centered on the hub , now the hard part , measure ( not one of my strong
points ) how far the presser bolts are apart , spin the motor with hub and
plate and put a grove on the aluminum plat this distance , lay the presser
on the aluminum plate so that this grove goes through all the presser
mounting bolt holes and drill them . I would have to make something to hold
the motor and the cutting bit , The bit holder which you can see ,
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projectresearch.htm comes off my lathe easy .
steve clunn
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: STEVE CLUNN<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Clutchless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: Clutchless
> ev-america.com will sell you an adapter for this purpose. Also, I think
> grassrootsev.com will also manufacture a Lovejoy coupling for customers
> who
> request it. In both cases, you send them the clutch disk with the
splined
> shaft on it and they integrate it into the adapter/coupling.
>
I've had both good luck and bad with the Lovjoy coupler , My old Ford
ranger
has a Lov joy which has worked well for years , . Here is how it works ,
First you get your Lov joy coupler which is 3 pieces , 2 hubs with "ears"
and one middle rubber/plastic 6 pointed star that fits between the two
hubs
( 3 ears per hub ) . One hub has the 1 1/8 inch hole for the motor shaft ,
the other you take the inside spline for the clutch disk and weld it to
the
back of the other hub. Now when you get the clutch disk hub off the disk
by
grinding off the rivets ect , it will have a lip , you will have to turn
on
a lath ( or use your motor with hub on backwards) the lov joy hub so that
the disk hub will fit inside just right ,this is what centers it , then
you
weld it to the lov joy hub ( big bolt clamping it together). Some small
problems are , your coupler made of 2 hubs end up being very long so you
could need a lot more spacer as your tranny may have to be further away
for
the motor , I didn't have this problem with the ranger. The other problem
is
that you have to have some way to keep the two hubs together , the one on
the motor is boiled , so no problem but the one on the tranny shaft is on
a
spline shaft and if there is room could slide back on the shaft which
would
let the rubber fall out and tear the ears off the lov joy hubs . On the
ranger ( clunn car 3) I put some washers on the tranny shaft so the tranny
hub could only go on so far . Later I did one and used a big ring clip ,
and
put a grove in the two hubs for the ring to sit in , this looked good but
somehow the ring came off and the one hub slid up the tranny shaft , which
was not good . I fixed this one by welding a small stub axel in the end of
the hub , so the lov joy on the tranny shaft could only slide on so far.
This is still working ( clunn car 4 ) . So if a motor fell from the sky ,
you have some contactors / bucket of salt water, old car somebody gave you
,
and a pile of batteries. 7 or 8 hundred dollars for a adaptor plate ? Then
maybe this is a solution , I would do this for the right person under the
right conductions , for $25 , , This is really only for the people who
really have no money and want a ev and are willing to trade many hours of
there time instead of spending the money to get a REALLY GOOD adaptor
plate
made by you know who :-) . I want to see more EV's on the road , not 1/2
done EV's that don't get finished because of problems making the adaptor .
Steve Clunn
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:05 PM
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Clutchless
>
> I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less
expensive,
> and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears though. I
> think
> that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of the spinning motor
> coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the syncros compared to
if
> it
> only had the clutch disc spinning when shifting? How fast does an
> electric
> motor spin down?
>
> Any off the shelf ways to couple the output shaft of the motor to the
> transmission input shaft? What method is used to couple to the motor
> shaft?
>
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Batteries, cheap-charger
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:40:51 -0500
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Hi, from an oldbie, I look for the best *cost per mile* since I drive about
300 miles per week, (change a 20 battery set about once a year) used
trojan's (about 14k miles) & US Batteries (about 10k miles) but went back to
Sam's this last time for 20 of the Exide (Stowaway) batteries since golf
cart batteries have become a comodity item. I got about 14k miles when
Sam's was using Trojan's, I suspect the Exides (from other folk's
experience) will be about the same as US at 10k miles. Pull around the left
side back where they work on cars and already have 20 dead batteries in your
truck or they'll ping you for $7 apeace core charge. Get the battery post
handle from an auto supply place since they don't have handle end clips on
them.
With the talk on chargers, I just use a 1.5kw uWave oven transformer
modified with a uP control. Although I designed a HF iso-charger patent no.
6,218,812 www.uspto.gov , it's a whole lot
simpler/cheaper/easier/more-reliable to use a 15lb hunk of iron. Always put
a 25uf primary motor run cap on for PFC as Lee recommended or you'll smoke
the cords/wall outlets and set the secondary for C/40 current at final
taper, about 4 amps. (I have a 2nd one slaved off board for home charging
the 20 battery E-jeep at home). Always connect the green wire to the
chassis and I light center-tap the battery pack through a 30A fast magnetic
breaker with a diode bridge/sonalert (DC ground fault indicator); so my max
shock potential is 60V for a 120V system (similar to Canada's NOVA battery
room requirements). If a wire rubs through the frame i get a beep. I also
have to work on my EV when it's charging, so I need iso, since it's either
charging or driving (two cycles per day).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:43 PM
Subject: Batteries
> Hi list.
>
>
>
> I have got a newbie question...
>
>
>
> I was perusing the local Sam's Club today, and they have a rack of
> Batteries.
>
>
>
> Would any of these be acceptable for a starter EV or should I definitely
> look else ware. I am just getting started, and want to build a test bed
EV
> without breaking the pocketbook!.
>
>
>
> Here is what they had.
>
>
>
> StowAway Golf Cart Battery
>
> 6V Group Size GC2 $46.63 each
>
> 110 min @75 amps
>
>
>
> StowAway
>
> ST31DC /600 CCA
>
> 12V 115AmpHours $65.23 each
>
> 12 V 105 Amp hours $49.57 each
>
>
>
> They also had several Very Large bats
>
>
>
> Heavy Duty Size 4DLT
>
> 250 RC 79.77 each(? What is RC)
>
> These were als rated with CA and CCA but not amp hours.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the comments
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:41:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
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> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Another problem is that there are substantial amounts of resistance,
> inductance, and capacitance between any two points in a large "grounded"
> piece of metal like a car body. Anyone familiar with RF can tell you how
> easy it is to have one point on a piece of metal at 0 volts, and another
> point *ON THE SAME PIECE OF METAL* at 100s of volts! The classic example
> of this is that if you touch two points on even a low-power transmitting
> antenna you'll get a shock! The high frequency chargers, motor
> controllers,
> and even brush arcing can create enough RF to give you such shocks.
Heck Lee, don't limit it there.... I've been bit(tingled) by a RECEIVING
antenna.
Sometimes, RF really is like FM... :-)
Stay Charged!
Hump
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 07:23:12 -0800
From: CopperLion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
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I would apologize, but then-
I thought that $44mil of taxpayer money going into a private program
that is inevitably going to cost more in resources and environmnetal
damage was fair game. I really think that a focus on the negatives of
the program is necessary, and the fact that so many voices are sweeping
those negatives under the rug (both political and non-political voices)
makes it clear that there must be another agenda. I really don't care
what anyones political bent is- Republican, Democrat, Green,
International- it doesn't matter. I was speaking to the fact that it may
appear to be the U.S. President's personal agenda on the face of things,
but there is a huge lobby behind him if you look beneath the surface. I
was speaking of my belief that it is a misuse of taxpayer money, and I
am not the only person on this list to provide an opinion of this nature.
If you still feel that I am in error, I apologize for offending your
sensibilities, and I will go back to my silent corner.
Paul G. wrote:
> With all due respect to your personal opinions CopperLion, you need to
> avoid political commentary on the EVlist. What unites this group of
> people is EVs, political opinions vary across the entire political
> spectrum (plus this list has significant non USA membership.)
>
> Paul G.
>
>
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:51:32 -0500
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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:02:08 -0500, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>GROUNDING: As I understand it, the primary function of an equipment ground
>(the green or bare wire) in your house's electrical system is to guard
>against a dangerous situation which would arise if something metallic that
>people can touch, such as the metal frame of an appliance, should
>accidentally come in contact with a hot conductor.
Yes.
>
>The ground path of significance in this case is NOT to earth ground, but
>from the metal object, through the ground system, to the neutral / ground
>bus of the building's main disconnect. The grounding conductor must be
>large enough, and the entire system of low enough resistance that, when a
>ground fault occurs, enough current will flow to trip a breaker or open a
>fuse in a reasonably short period of time. That could be hundreds or
>thousands of amperes!
That's confusing. In the US, all power system grounds are referenced
to earth ground. Earth ground has no special significance except that
one side of the power system is tied to it. If a person touches an
energized conductor while in contact with earth ground then the
current would flow through that person, through the ground and back to
the neutral terminal of the distribution transformer.
You are correct on the ground wire sizing, though that theory is
relatively new, probably from the early 80s or maybe late 70s. Before
that the ground wire was normally several sizes smaller. The thinking
back then was that the smaller wire would limit fault current.
Nowadays, fault current limiting is handled by the interrupting
device's (fuse or breaker) maximum let-through rating. With that
handled, the ground wire can be as large as the main wiring.
>
>OTOH, it only takes a few tens of milliamps to kill a person. Such a low
>current fault won't be cleared by a breaker or fuse. However, a household
>GFI will normally trip immediately at 5ma of fault current.
>
>EARTHING: Again, according to what I've read, the primary reason that the
>power system is earthed (I use the UK / CA term in the hopes that it will
>help reduce confusion) is to help protect the power grid and house from
>lightning strikes and induced voltage therefrom.
No. Surge arresters and other protective devices protect from
lightning and surges. In fact, the grid right up to the last local
distribution feeder is normally operated ungrounded. On a
delta-connected system, ground has no meaning unless there is a wild
leg (center-tap on one phase winding.) Wye may or may not be ground
referenced. Usually not. What is common is for there to be a neutral
(junction of the wye connection or a "wyeing instrument transformer
for delta connections) connection of relatively high impedance that
goes to ground through a ground current detection relay. This
instrument indicates the stray ground leakage and trips the feeder
when it exceeds a certain value. Modern ones also look for tracking
arc signatures to detect incipient failures.
On the last leg to your house, the primary high voltage system may or
may not be ground-referenced. That is a utility policy decision. If
your pole pig (transformer) has only one "horn" (high voltage bushing)
and if there is a smaller neutral wire positioned farther down on the
pole then the system is wye fed and the transformer is connected hot
to neutral. If your pole pig has two horns then the transformer is
likely connected phase to phase with no primary ground. Some
utilities have standardized on hardware and use two horn pigs even on
hot to neutral primary connections.
The "earth ground" as we think of it only originates on the pig
secondary that feeds our houses. If you look closely at the pig on
the pole you'll see three low voltage connections coming out. The
center one is the neutral. You'll also see a large copper strap
running from the neutral terminal to the transformer case which is
bonded to earth ground.
Because there can be a large voltage drop across the neutral conductor
during a fault, the neutral is grounded again at the meter base and
normally, again at the breaker panel. The operating principle being
that the more paths back to that neutral terminal on the transformer,
the better.
I should note that if the strap is removed from the transformer and
the grounds disconnected, the system would still work the same way.
In fact, with a perfect ungrounded system, touching a conductor and
ground would not result in a shock. The problem is maintaining a
perfectly floating system. The first ground anywhere on the system
makes it a grounded system, though an imperfectly grounded one. The
SECOND ground is the problem. Fault current flow. The problem is,
that first ground might be somewhere inconvenient (like in a wall) and
of low quality, the result being arcing that could start a fire. The
powers that were decided (correctly, I think) that it was much better
to put that first ground in place intentionally and make sure it is a
high quality ground.
>
>The fact that the entire power grid is earthed makes it possible for leakage
>current to pass through a person's body. Other than lightning, I don't
>really understand why the decision was made early in the game to earth part
>of the power grid. It seems to me that a system fully isolated from earth,
>with a means of discharging lighting induced surges (as with an antenna
>lightning arrestor) would have been better. But what do I know? In any
>case, that wasn't done in the design of the US power grid. In fact I've
>read that there are areas where not only is the system earthed, the earth is
>actually used as a return conductor!
See above for the answer to the first part. Using ground return.
That was popular with telegraph systems because it saved the cost of a
return conductor. Earth return was used in early power systems a) to
save wire costs and b) because they didn't understand the variability
of the ground quality with soil and weather conditions.
Today, grounds that really matter (likely to have to handle large
current levels) are tested and must meet a certain maximum resistance.
This is done with an Earth Ground Tester. The tester has 3 leads.
One goes to the ground rod or grid. The other two go to steel stakes
driven into the ground at widely spaced intervals (my tester has 75 ft
long leads). FM (friggin' magic) happens inside the box and the meter
displays the ground resistance in milli-ohms.
Residential ground rods are usually mostly decorations, displaying
rather high ground resistance. That is one of the first things I look
at when I get a call to investigate power quality problems. In soil
in these parts, an acceptably low resistance ground requires 3 10 or
15 ft long rods driven in the ground at least 3 feet apart (normally
in a triangle) and bonded together.
>
>(I've also heard that even where this isn't true, when linemen repair damage
>after a storm, the earthed side of the line is often the last to be
>restored. So for some indefinite period the earth may be serving as the
>return there, too, and some pretty significant currents are flowing in the
>ground.)
On the primary side (all the high voltage wiring on the other side of
your pole pig) there is no grounded side. The linemen make up the
connections as they come to them. You will often see a "lightning
wire" or "messenger wire" atop the pole. This grounded wire projects
a cone of lightning protection down across the active conductors.
This wire does NOT protect from a direct strike but instead drains off
atmospheric charges before the stroke can form. This wire would
normally not be a high priority during storm restoration work.
>
>Back to EVs. In theory, if the frame of your EV is grounded it is also
>earthed, IF your electrical system is 100% up to code. You would think that
>the EV should be at earth potential. Thus if you are touching the earth and
>the EV at the same time, there should be NO difference of potential between
>them, regardless of what your charger or dirty batteries are doing.
>
>In practice, not every house's grounding system is properly installed and
>maintained. Nor is the ground a real equipotential plane! Drive a ground
>rod at one end of your front yard and another at the other, and connect a
>sensitive voltmeter across them, and in many cases you will read an AC
>voltage. In fact there have been cases where defective power company and
>house grounding systems created fairly substantial and dangerous potential
>differences across sections of the earth.
So true, unfortunately. I was working on the electrical service in my
apartment building in Pa several years ago when I hung my clamp-on
ammeter on an overhead copper pipe for storage. I happened to notice
that it was reading almost 80 amps! Upon investigating, I found that
the ground wire on the pole had been broken by someone bumping the
pole with a car bumper. The pole pig fed 4 houses. All the neutral
current was flowing through my plumbing. The copper plumbing out to
the street was a better ground than the ground rod! I put on my hot
gloves and touched the ends of the broken wires together. There was a
big arc and the ends welded, just like I hoped they would. Good
enough until the utility could come out and repair the thing.
>
>To illustrate this in a practical everyday application, dairy farmers often
>have to go to great effort to ensure that their barns form an equipotential
>plane. Potential differences from one part of the barn to another have been
>shown to cause reduced milk production and other health effects in cattle.
yep. Seems cows are much more sensitive to electricity than we are.
>
>So, grounding your EV is certainly better than nothing, but by itself it's
>not enough, IMO. Add a GFI and you get one more level of protection.
>Double-insulate the EV (meaning 100% isolation, including battery, motor,
>and charger) and you have still one more level. And as Lee pointed out,
>there's still DC from the battery itself to consider.
Here is something else to think about. The EV's system is not unlike
the primary power system in that the whole shebang floats above
ground. There is little conductor to ground stress on the insulation
anywhere. Only the tramp resistance to ground. In particular, the
motor windings have no potential stress across them to ground.
Now connect a non-isolated charger to the car and earth the car body
via the green wire. Now there is a minimum of 120 volts from all
parts of the EV wiring to ground. In particular, the motor windings
if the motor isn't completely isolated from the pack during charging.
Everything inside the motor case is subject to this potential to
ground. The field, the armature, the brush holders, the commutator.
This isn't a particular problem for a motor in good shape. But
consider one that has absorbed some moisture and has carbon dust all
over the insides. Now tracking can start. Tracking feeds on itself
until finally there is a complete breakdown of insulation along the
track.
Somewhere along the line the GFI, if one is present, will trip from
the ground current. If one isn't present then the fault may blow
itself out or it may turn into a complete fault that trips the
breaker.
The interesting thing is, the car will probably drive, unless the
fault happens to be severe enough to break a conductor - not likely
with the high current motors we use. If there is another (partial)
ground on the DC system somewhere else then many mysterious things can
happen. Let's say the fault happened between the brush and series
field connection. Some of the supplied current is shunted to ground
away from the armature. The motor would draw excessive current, would
run slowly because of the missing current AND the stronger field. It
might trip the controller if it has ground fault detection.
All this certainly indicates that an isolated charging system is the
best. The ideal system would have an isolated charger and a ground
current detection relay. Less ideal would be a non-isolated charger
and a ground current detection relay. This is different than a GFI in
that it actually detects the current flowing in the ground conductor.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:20:50 -0800
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Subject: Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
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No, you may be 100% correct, just EVDL is wrong the place to express it.
Victor
>> With all due respect to your personal opinions CopperLion, you need to
>> avoid political commentary on the EVlist. What unites this group of
>> people is EVs, political opinions vary across the entire political
>> spectrum (plus this list has significant non USA membership.)
>>
>> Paul G.
>>
>>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:10:51 -0800
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PCB adapter plate, was Re: Adapter Idea (Lucite)?
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I'm not the one who's to try this. I have no trouble
designing an adapter plate and output CAD files
accepted by CNC mill, so machinist don't waste his
time. My plate cost me $350 including material.
And no need for the sensors for me they are integrated
in the motors and inverter always knows and displays it.
But this is me and my circumstances. For someone
fiberglass plate may be better choice. I wonder out of
curiosity how well it would stand, but not because I'm
actually looking for such a solution.
Victor
David Chapman wrote:
> And when you are ready to try this, let me know. In the Junque yard I have a
> piece of single sided PC board that is 4' x 4' with about a 6" sq out of one
> corner. Could probably make a few adapters out of this one with careful
> layout. Then you would just need the backer sheets of course.
>
> TTYL David Chapman.
>
>
>>But material wise your idea is very sound! Moreover, if you
>>pur PCB traces on the most outer layer (toward tranny), you can
>>easily surface mount on it, say, a shaft speed sensor...
>>
>>--
>>Victor
>>'91 ACRX - something different
>>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:33:21 -0500
From: Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> A neighbor bought a 22cc Mitsubishi motored gas scooter from Kragen.
> He rang my bell asking for some help starting it. Took about 10
> minutes of fiddling and flooding it before getting it started. After
> starting I suggested he take it to the bottom of our hill and see how
> it performed. Came back with a long face. Said he had to push it up
> the hill helping it on the steepest part. I was waiting with my son's
> Bladez standup much like the gas scooter but of course electric
> drive. He took it up the same hill and came back with an ev grin. "I
> zipped right up the hill" He said.. My neighbor weighs about 162 and
> I am 250. We had a couple of races and off the line I was faster he
> did catch up going up a slight hill but I hadn't charged the scooter
> for a few days. Going back we were about the same speed. He only has
> to do 6 miles to work. I told him an electric might be better. He
> certainly was confused but agreed that he had a bunch of 110 plugs at
> work and could easily charge there. Kragen has a 60 day take back
> policy. I think he should.take it back.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
What are the specs on the Bladez?
Motor watts, cost etc.
Mike -
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