EV Digest 4250
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 95 SAAB 900E ADVICE!!!!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solectria Force Discussion Group
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 95 SAAB 900E weight
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 1998 EV Ranger for sale
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) sources for motor and controllers
by "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: First drive around the block in the New Beetle
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: sources for motor and controllers
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: sources for motor and controllers
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NO POLITICS - here's why
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Interstate Batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: First drive around the block in the New Beetle
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Flooded Battery heat & Specific Gravity.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 95 SAAB 900E weight
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Unconventional Liquid Motor Cooling Ideas?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: E-Meter Blues
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: E-Meter Blues
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Interstate Batteries
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: NO POLITICS - here's why
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> I have had the vehicle secured in a shed until I can get around to doing
> more with it, most likely next month. It is a hatchback model which looks
> to be great for battery storage. A lot of weighty items can be taken out.
> Overall the 95 is not as large a car as my wife's 2000 malibu and I am not
> sure about it's curb weight.
According to the published specs a 95 Saab 900 2 door hatchback has a curb
weight of 2940 lbs. That's a pretty heavy car, figure at least 4,000 lbs
once you have batteries in it.
> so I don' t see it as a "heavyweight" by any definition. My sense is an
> 8" motor will drive it ok.
Unless you live somewhere that's really flat, you might want to reconsider
using an 8" ADC. Especially since you are considering options that
are...ermm...not exactly efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe, thanks for the detailed reply.
1) when I flipper the wires for the current connection, I did not do it at
the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the meter (pins 2 & 3).
2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs, no
digits, nothing :-(
3) when I installed the meter for the first time (when it was working), I
did set it up for 500V prescaler. It was working just great.
I could very well have a noisy powerup. Basically the meter is powered up
whenever the main breaker is on. To power it up, I just throw on the main
breaker.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: April 2, 2005 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
1) When you removed and reinstalled the fuses, did you do it in the
specified order? Sometimes it makes a difference. Always hook up the blue
wire first, then the red according to page 18 of the manual. Make sure you
don't have a noisy powerup because it can scramble the microcontroller.
2) Did the bargraph come on? Did the Circle letters (V,A,Ah, &T) come on? If
they did, it means the power is connected (pin 5), but there is too little
voltage on the sense input (pin 4). In the Low Voltage section of the manual
(p25), it says the voltage on pin 4 must be at least 10 volts to get the
digits to illuminate.
3) The meter might come up configured for no prescaler. If you press the SET
button for three seconds, you can then press the SEL button until F13 shows
in the display. Press SET until 1 is showing for a 100 volt prescaler or 2
is showing for a 500 volt prescaler. Press SEL to exit the F13 setup.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: E-Meter Blues
> I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. It all worked, so I
> programmed it, then tested it, and I realized the current was reading
> backwards.
>
> So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3 (which
go
> to the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it up.
> Nothing, blank, do display of any kind.
>
> I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the
E-Meter
> has power, ground and voltage from the prescaler.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <BLOCKED::http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
This connector is one of the Molex "Mini-Fit Jr." series. The plastic
shell/housing is polarized and has a retaining clip, so it only plugs in one
way. I have 3 Curtis 1221R controllers - 2 in service and 1 spare - so I
got some spare shells and contacts for this connector. I can mail you a set
if that would help.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
I promised I'd help Lou find a connector for a Curtis 1221 Regen model. It
has a special Molex� 10 pin connector. It just so happens after examination
I remembered that a PS2 powersupply connector looked simular. I happened
to have one I saved from a bad power supply and it's a 20 pin but can be
modified to fit. I was to meet Lou at Crowdens Garage SOMA area of San
snip
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Apr 2005 at 23:54, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Does anyone know the internet address for the Solectria Force Discussion
> Group or List ? Thanks, Menlo Park III, Bill
Hi Bill. There's a Yahoo Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/force_ev
The moderator is strongly antispam, and consequently makes it something of a
challenge to sign up. When you request membership, you'll receive an email
which requires you to fill in your vital stats and even write a mini-essay
on why you want to be a member. I've found that you pretty much have to
reply using a Yahoo Mail account for the moderator's filtering software not
to reject you.
So if you don't have a Yahoo Mail account now, you'll probably need to open
one in order to join the list.
When you get the moderator's email, don't delete any blank lines or add
anything, just fill in your information in the spaces provided. Don't add
spaces to the right of the ">" signs or anything.
Add the "TO" address given in the instructions, and click "send." I left the
existing "reply to" address there also, so there were two addresses in all,
and it worked for me, so I recommend just adding the address in the
instructions rather than changing to it.
Once you're signed up with your Yahoo account, you may be able to switch to
a different email address - I'm not sure about that though.
Hmm, come to that, I wonder if there's any interest in a Solectria Force
mailing list that isn't quite so dependent on Yahoo and its endless ads ...
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
You are right on the weight, I pulled the specs and ran them through the
metric calculator. Doesn't seem like that heavy of a car, evidently a
fooler. I figure some weight will be lost with the motor, fuel system and
some of the other motors that add a lot. Seems it even has a power antenna!
The 9" ADC seems to be used in trucks, so I suppose that is the way to go?
I will do some calculations now that I have the general weight. Also 20 6V
batteries would seem like a lot of weight at 120V. I am certainly going to
leave off the air conditioning, but do need the power steering pump unless I
can find a way to run it electrically. I need this car to go about 40 mile
max range on a charge. I am willing to trade some range for having a classy
car.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: 95 SAAB 900E ADVICE!!!!
I have had the vehicle secured in a shed until I can get around to doing
more with it, most likely next month. It is a hatchback model which
looks
to be great for battery storage. A lot of weighty items can be taken
out.
Overall the 95 is not as large a car as my wife's 2000 malibu and I am
not
sure about it's curb weight.
According to the published specs a 95 Saab 900 2 door hatchback has a curb
weight of 2940 lbs. That's a pretty heavy car, figure at least 4,000 lbs
once you have batteries in it.
so I don' t see it as a "heavyweight" by any definition. My sense is an
8" motor will drive it ok.
Unless you live somewhere that's really flat, you might want to reconsider
using an 8" ADC. Especially since you are considering options that
are...ermm...not exactly efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent one message to their list and found the guy (Charles Mc Arthur) that
did the VW conversions with Corbin many years ago. He has 9 Robin Reliants.
I also found a Subaru 360 website and saw a few 360 vans and autos for sale.
That list will be a bonanza for light gliders. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 2:47 PM
Subject: Arcane autos and connector for 1221Curtis Regen model.
I promised I'd help Lou find a connector for a Curtis 1221 Regen model. It
has a special Molex� 10 pin connector. It just so happens after examination
I remembered that a PS2 powersupply connector looked simular. I happened
to have one I saved from a bad power supply and it's a 20 pin but can be
modified to fit. I was to meet Lou at Crowdens Garage SOMA area of San
Francisco. He was there for (to my amazement) the Arcane Auto Society
yearly meeting.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Arcane_autos/
I saw there many of the autos we aspire to convert to electric here. (very
light) I saw Messerschmidt 2 seater, three wheeler. A real one. Not a
kit. Some were for sale. I saw a Fiat 750 Racer that was just beautiful.
Isettas, Honda 600, Mini, King, Multipa 600 6 seater. 2CV etc. There was
even one VW fastback converted to electricity that's how Lou got there
with the owner. Bruce from Santa Clara has a Honda 600 which he is
converting to an EV. He purchased on the web a DC9 Starter motor ready to
go and machined to go with the honda tranny already installed. I invited
him to sign up to the EV list for advice. He is trying to decide how big
to make the battery pack. This group might be a source for light weight
autos to convert. These guys and gals like us have their passion and they
might have their ear to the ground for finding gliders a bit better than
we do. They will do ground up restorations. They are nice people and
it's worth a try. Funny how things work out. I did this guy a favor and
was repaid many fold. If nothing else it was very interesting seeing all
the exotic mini cars. Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I replaced my blown E-Meter with a new unit today. I quadrupled checked the
wiring. Can you guess?? It worked! So I programmed it, then tested it,
and I realized the current was reading backwards.
So I shut everything down, then swapped the leads on pins 2 and 3 (going to
the shunt). I checked the connections again then powered it up. Nothing,
blank, do display of any kind.
I tested all the connections with a volt meter (carefully), and the E-Meter
has power, ground and voltage from the presale.
Any ideas?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With apologies to the List (My message was intended to be private/direct to
Dennis, but was sent from a remote PC/site).
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
What combinations are you currently using?
TIA
Chris Seeley
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Congratulations on your first drive in the New Beetle!
2. The Siemens controller had the fan on for most of the time. I need to
talk to Victor about what are normal operating temperatures for the drive.
I'm curious about that because I'm planning to go with a Siemens setup in my
conversion as well. I thought the Siemens motor and controller are both
water cooled. Does the controller also have a fan for air cooling in
addition to the water cooling?
Thanks,
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris;
Most guys are using ether Warfield, Netgain motors, or Advanced Motors
offerings. I STRONGLY recommend the Warp/Netgain ones because they are, were
designed by guys right here on the List. J Wayland ran ideas that were built
into the new line of traction motors. OK shameless plug here, but when I'm
happy with a product I'll talk about it!!
There are old GE's floating around on the classyfied EV ads. Bulletproof,
and if you lose interest, in a EV they would make good boatanchors<g>! Don't
ya DARE! SOMEbody else would want to buy it out. I made a ironclad offer to
a friend that was gunna build an EV but chickened out. I sed that I would
buy his stuff out at what he paid for it. I found loving homes for
EVerything but the Curtis controller.
Controllers/ A no brainer. Go to Cafe Electric, Otmar is the dean and
garu of the genre! There are old Rapters out there but they, I'm afraid are
orphens, as Damon at DCP isn't making them anymore. BUT he has fixed a few
of mine, but they wern't blown out. Still have the factory smoke inside!
Otmar's Zillas are most any voltage ya want to run, check out his website!
OK guyz I missed stuff, I'm sure? Fill us in on the rest of the stuff!!
Bob..82 Rabbit 9 in motor Rapter controller PFC 20 charger.120 volts worth
of t 105's
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
> I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me
some
> ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
>
>
>
> What combinations are you currently using?
>
>
>
> TIA
>
>
>
> Chris Seeley
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell us what you are planning. Then people can make specific
suggestions for motors, controllers, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: sources for motor and controllers
I am looking to get started on my EV. Would you folks care to give me some
ideas for motor sources, and controllers?
What combinations are you currently using?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the problems with divorcing the list from the motivations for doing
all of this EV stuff in the first place (which could be thought of as
something akin to cutting off the head of Lee Hart's and Mahatma Gandhi's
proverbial snake) and burying its head in the sand of technical minutia
exclusively -- one of the problems of engaging in this kind of myopia of not
seeing the forest from the trees -- is that the list (although not
necessarily all listers, at least in their off-list consciousness) is
relegated to living in a cave in which it seems to be missing some very
significant changes occurring in the (always fluid and dynamic) real world
that seem to be rendering almost moot and even silly some of these
hand-wringing anxieties about, God forbid, possibly offending someone's
political sensibilities.
To wit, in the last month or so, I have read no less than half a dozen
articles in the press about the new and somewhat awkward alliance that is
developing between disparate groups on all ends of the political spectrum,
many of them ideological opposites, who have put aside their serious
differences and come together to support EV technology, including HEVs,
PiHEVs, BEVs, and FCEVs. This includes a number of environmental and
anti-war groups on the left and the neo-conservatives and Christian
fundamentalists on the right. The articles I've read all point out that
these disparate groups are supporting EVs for very different reasons and
that, basically, they've agreed to disagree on the motivations but share the
same ultimate goal of trying to push the nation in the direction of EVs.
The neoconservatives, who brought us the Iraq War -- people like Jim
Woolsey, Frank Gaffney, and Ken Adelman (not *our* Ken Adelman who drives a
t-zero, but the *other* Ken Adelman) -- couldn't give a hoot about
environmental concerns and by and large think that global warming is a farce
and fabrication of the left. They are now advocating EVs solely for reasons
of national security, economic security, and fighting terrorism. The
Christian fundamentalists, also on the right, are advocating EVs for a very
different reason -- to be good stewards in preserving, and not desecrating,
God's creation, according to the reports I've read. The only mistake I
think these news articles have made is in claiming that the groups on the
left support EVs primarily for environmental reasons, like global warming.
I can't speak first hand for any of these groups, but I believe the
environmental and anti-war groups on the left have always cited national
security, economic security, and terrorist concerns, in *addition* to the
environmental motivation, for supporting EVs.
The only argument I can see in all of this is whether this long-overdue,
belated coming together of both ends of the political spectrum in support of
EVs is maybe too little, too late, coming as it is in the 11th hour. It's
the bottom of the 9th and we are down by 15 runs. Or as my conversion
partner Steve Clunn would say, the bus is still barreling down the road at
60mph and is mighty close to hitting that big brick wall in front of us, but
no one has yet even designed the brake system for the bus, much less started
to install it.
Or one can be apolitical, politically agnostic and neutral, and as Neon John
suggests, advocate EVs primarily on grounds of their technical benefits,
features, and performance. This is the approach being taken by one BEV
manufacturer that recently raised over $40 million to finance its production
ramp and will start producing 600 vehicles a month late this year at its two
factories, one in Europe and one in the US. They are marketing the vehicle
primarily on its performance, advertising its 0-to-60mph time that beats all
of its ICE competitors by a large margin.
All of the above, political and apolitical, are good reasons to support EVs.
It's a big enough tent for everyone, and we can all agree to disagree about
the reasons for advocating EVs. But to have this authoritarian bent that no
political discussion of any type or nature will be tolerated under any
circumstances -- it is really kind of naive to think that you can so easily
and cleanly divorce yourselves from the real world context and motivations
for all of this in the first place. It's a bit like taking a fish out of
water, or cutting off the head of Lee Hart's snake. (No offense Lee; no
Lorena Bobbitt connotation intended.) If only the world worked like the
little EV utopia you'd like to enforce on this list, then I guess the entire
world would already be driving EVs by now. But they aren't, are they?
I think it's also somewhat of an insult to list members' intelligence to
imply that they don't have the maturity to be able to discuss the politics
surrounding EVs, or anything political for that matter, without offending
others' sensibilities. Yes, unfortunately there will always be a few
outliers who would love to drag the list down to their least common
denominatoriality, but after our initial shock of first seeing that kind of
thing, most of us have learned to ignore the bait of the few provocateurs
and rather try to separate their kernels of wisdom out from their chaff and
see in that their redeeming qualities.
In summary, the list needs to come out of the cave, come back from Irkutsk,
wake up, take off the blinders, and open its eyes. Take a look around you.
The world is changing. Stop wringing your hands about politics. The nation
is moving on and passing by many of these concerns and rendering them moot,
at least in the context of EVs. It's OK!
Charles
Lee Hart wrote:
David Roden wrote:
No need to apologize, CL, but it's always best to stay as far away
from politics as you possibly can.
Ghandi said something like, "I do not like politics, and avoid it when I
can. But sometimes it encircles me like a snake, and I have no choice
but to fight back."
I think this is a good philosophy. The list should stick to EVs, though
at times we will have no choice but to get political or be strangled by
"the snake".
So to me, discussing politics makes sense in the context of news reports
about EVs, or to inform people about laws being passed that directly
affect EVs, or whenever there are concrete actions people can take.
Posters should also apply the "Cronkite test". Ask yourself "Would
Walter Cronkite have said this?" He was the most respected journalist in
America, because he bent over backwards to be fair and impartial in how
he presented the news. Stick to the facts. No name-calling. Leave out
your own opinions, as they aren't going to change anyone's mind anyway.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are both correct.
DC drives tend to be lower voltage, therefore to get the same watt-hours at
the lower voltage, the batteries tend to use cells with a higher Ahr rating.
AC drives tend to be higher voltage, therefore to get the same Watt-Hours at
the higher voltage, the designers use more lower Ahr batteries to get a
similar weight pack.
Lead acid batteries tend to have very similar energy density regardless of
pack voltage. The AC systems just use more smaller cells than the DC systems
that user fewer larger cells.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Interstate Batteries
> > Bob Jones
> > Are you powering an AC or DC drive? From what I have
> > read on this list it make a difference in the
> > recommendations. DC drives the higher the AHr rate the
> > father it will go. With AC the higher the voltage the
> > farther it will go. At least that is my understanding
> > of battery choices in reading both the Metric Mind and
> > Electroauo websites and their options of drives.
>
> Nope, sorry. For range what counts is WattHours, that is volts * Amp
Hours.
> Simply having higher voltage doesn't give you more range unless you
> maintain or increase the amp hours. i.e a 240V 10Ah pack will have far
> less range than a 120V 30Ah pack in any vehicle. AC or DC doesn't matter.
>
> In DC drives, high voltage can cause problems with arcing on the
> comutator, so they usually select low voltage and high current.
> AC doesn't have a comutator so this isn't a problem and most of the
> currently available AC drive systems are designed to use high voltage (
> >200V) which improves efficiency slightly.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Charles, you are correct, the Siemens systems are water-cooled. The fan
I am referring to is the fan for the radiator. The controller can be
programmed to turn this fan on and off at specific temperatures.
I really like the Siemens setup. Very well manufactured, very easy to
install and interfaces well to the existing VW instrumentation (like the
tach and warning lights). I also like the fact that it is very
programmable. Which is something I have to learn a bit more about.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: April 2, 2005 7:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First drive around the block in the New Beetle
Hi Don,
Congratulations on your first drive in the New Beetle!
> 2. The Siemens controller had the fan on for most of the time. I need
> to talk to Victor about what are normal operating temperatures for the
drive.
I'm curious about that because I'm planning to go with a Siemens setup in my
conversion as well. I thought the Siemens motor and controller are both
water cooled. Does the controller also have a fan for air cooling in
addition to the water cooling?
Thanks,
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the list has been sorta slow, a meer 50 messages/day, so...
You Guessed it! It's me again, with yet another hair brained idea..
So, any motor that is currently liquid cooled I'de imagin is similar
to an ICE, with isolated veines running throught the housing... ok..
But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How about anti-freeze?
Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower voltage, like 48vdc.
In particular, I'm thinking that one could place an E-Tek inside a
sealed housing filled with a liquid which would in-and-of-itself
have much more heat obsorbsion capacity or thermal mass. Sure there
would be more loss due to the rotor moving through a heavier fluid,
but would the additional thermal mass and thus more stable higher
current capacity be worthwile? Beyond simply replacing the air with
a liquid one could circulate the liquid out to a heat exchanger...
I'm thinking that the rotor's motion would tend to push the liquid
outwards to the edges, It may setup some internal fluid circulation?
Is anti-freeze conductive? What else might work?
Nitrogen? <Grin> So, just how crazy of an idea is this?
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:59 AM 3/04/05 -0700, you wrote:
Well, the list has been sorta slow, a meer 50 messages/day, so...
You Guessed it! It's me again, with yet another hair brained idea..
<snip>
But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How about anti-freeze?
Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower voltage, like 48vdc.
BIG radio transmitters use distilled water to cool live bits that are at
several thousand volts, since distilled water is non-conductive, there is
the potential (pardon the pun) for it to be not an issue.
In particular, I'm thinking <snip> Sure there
would be more loss due to the rotor moving through a heavier fluid,
but would the additional thermal mass and thus more stable higher
current capacity be worthwile?
Hmm, I'm sure there are engineers who could calculate this, but you maybe
taking a 50% range hit from the addd drag.
<snip> What else might work?
Stick a thermal sensor on the motor, once it goes above a setpoint, *spray*
distilled water onto the brushes, commutator and rotor, let it
evaporatively cool. Or add an air compressor and use vortex nozzles to blow
freezing air into the motor (direct it at the brushes).
Nitrogen? <Grin> So, just how crazy of an idea is this?
One of my employees might like some of what you were smoking... <grin>.
Grab a scuba tank, instead of using a blower into the motor, use the air
from the tank - as it goes through volume expansion, the energy per volume
is sorta stretched by the expansion change, so it gets seriously cold...
and the exhaust could be backwards, giving you a "jet" boost!
Seriously, though, there is probably less weight, power demand and $
penalty to stick a bigger motor in that is more efficient.
L8r
Ryan
James
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I watered the U.S. 125's yesterday night and then pluged in for the
night.After 6 or so hours from being down 40% the charger turned off. The
Specific Gravity was lower than the last time I checked.(low white area) I
also left the battery box covers open. The batteries felt cold rather than
the normal toasty temp. Is this a factor in Specific Gravity? I drove the
Truck yesterday before watering and got 12.6 miles. After resting an hour
or more registered 123.55 & the SOC meter read 60%. That time I drove after
charging and the batteries were warm and the 120v system had fallen to 0
amps. So I un plugged and drove off. (close to full charge but the charger
didn't turn off I pulled the plug at 0 amps cause I had to go) It was about
the stiffist the batteries have ever been. I thought watering and then
charging would stir up the electrolite. Seems leaving the battery box
covers up is not good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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> You are right on the weight, I pulled the specs and ran them through the
> metric calculator. Doesn't seem like that heavy of a car, evidently a
> fooler. I figure some weight will be lost with the motor, fuel system
> and some of the other motors that add a lot. Seems it even has a power
> antenna!
Roughly speaking, you can estimate that the DC motor/ adapter plate/
controller/ charger/ DC-DC will weight about the same as a 4 cylinder
motor with accessories.
You'll loose another 200 lbs, or so, with the fuel/fluids/etc.
20 GC batteries will weight about 1260 lbs, plus the weight of cables,
connectors, etc.
>
> The 9" ADC seems to be used in trucks, so I suppose that is the way to go?
That's what I'd reccomend, but check with the place you buy your parts.
They all have much more experience than I do.
> I will do some calculations now that I have the general weight. Also 20
> 6V batteries would seem like a lot of weight at 120V.
True but, if you want 40 miles of range, that's what it's going to take.
> max range on a charge. I am willing to trade some range for having a
> classy car.
Having a car that YOU are happy with, is the most important part.
I'd definitely look into swapping transmissions though, that might gain
you an extra 4-5 miles of range.
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> But would it be possible to find a non-conductive liquid that could
> be allowed to run throught a live DC motor? How about anti-freeze?
> Is voltage a factor? Might work better at lower voltage, like 48vdc.
How about water? Realatively speaking, even contaminate it's not that
conductive. No where near as conductive as say...copper for example.
> In particular, I'm thinking that one could place an E-Tek inside a
> sealed housing filled with a liquid which would in-and-of-itself
> have much more heat obsorbsion capacity or thermal mass. Sure there
> would be more loss due to the rotor moving through a heavier fluid,
Yeah, a LOT more loss. Not to mention problems with cavitation which will
cause even more loss and probably some damage.
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Don Cameron wrote:
> 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
> do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
> meter (pins 2 & 3).
>
> 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
> no digits, nothing :-(
Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.
Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be
working but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some
E-meters blank the display when they see anything less than ~10v.
Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected,
and you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC
itself isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC
powering nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Thanks Lee,
I disconnected the EMeter, and checked all the wiring again. Note: I am
using a pack 24V tap as suggested on page 50 of the operating guide. I made
sure the ground of the Emeter is the same ground as the 24V negative. The
measured values of the connections are as follows:
pin 1) Black (negative) from prescaler
pin 2) From battery side of shunt to negative - 0V
pin 3) From load side of shunt to negative - 0V
pin 4) From positive side of prescaler - 70V
pin 5) From pack 24v tap -25.4V
Then I reconnected it and triple checked against the schematic and the
tightness of the connections. Fuses are good as well.
-- There are no lights of any kind, I try pressing the switches, nothing
works. It is as if there is no power getting to the meter.
If I was to bench test this, is there a way I can do it without having to
use a shunt? Maybe not connect the current sense lines, or simply ground
them?
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: April 3, 2005 8:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: E-Meter Blues
Don Cameron wrote:
> 1) when I flipped the wires for the current connection, I did not
> do it at the fuses, I simply swapped them at the back of the
> meter (pins 2 & 3).
>
> 2) there is absolutely no sign of any light on the meter. No LEDs,
> no digits, nothing :-(
Hmm... it's hard to analyze this sort of problem without seeing it.
Could it be that when you disconnected the shunt wires, you also
disconnected the prescaler's ground? This would open the low side of the
voltage divider in it, and put a tremendous voltage on the voltage sense
input. If this killed the voltage sense input, the E-meter might be working
but thinks it sees zero volts. If I recall correctly, some E-meters blank
the display when they see anything less than ~10v.
Another possibility is that something unrelated also got disconnected, and
you didn't notice. For instance, the + or - wire from your 12v DC/DC
converter that powers the E-meter may have fallen off, or the DC/DC itself
isn't getting power any more. (You *do* have an isolated 12vDC/DC powering
nothing but the E-meter, don't you?)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Peter, I think your 2nd sentence is potentially misleading (or at least
I misinterpreted it). Having higher voltage will give you more range if
you keep the same amp hours. (Compared to a lower voltage pack with the
same amp hours)
From a practical standpoint, the Ah capacity of many batteries is such
that adding voltage adds capacity, athough it may not scale exactly. In
general the energy stored is proportional to the mass of the lead
battery . Of course you know all this, this is for the benefit of the
person you were replying to.
One thing I might point out is that vehicle to vehicle variations in
system setup (weight, drag, alignment, drive system) can result in a
10Ah 240V system having the same *range* as a 120V 30Ah system (with
2/3 the energy), but it proably couldn't exceed it. And it could go the
other way, too.
Seth
On Apr 2, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Bob Jones
Are you powering an AC or DC drive? From what I have
read on this list it make a difference in the
recommendations. DC drives the higher the AHr rate the
father it will go. With AC the higher the voltage the
farther it will go. At least that is my understanding
of battery choices in reading both the Metric Mind and
Electroauo websites and their options of drives.
Nope, sorry. For range what counts is WattHours, that is volts * Amp
Hours.
Simply having higher voltage doesn't give you more range unless you
maintain or increase the amp hours. i.e a 240V 10Ah pack will have far
less range than a 120V 30Ah pack in any vehicle. AC or DC doesn't
matter.
In DC drives, high voltage can cause problems with arcing on the
comutator, so they usually select low voltage and high current.
AC doesn't have a comutator so this isn't a problem and most of the
currently available AC drive systems are designed to use high voltage (
200V) which improves efficiency slightly.
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Charles, thanks for your comments. Yours is a very thoughtful and thought-
provoking post. You make good points, and I don't disagree that we ^should^
be able to discuss politics on this list. But there are some practical issues
to consider.
I first started taking part on the EV list in 1995. At that time there was
more
political agreement on the list and less political polarization in US society,
and IIRC we did discuss the politics of EVs - rationally and thoughtfully -
fairly often.
However, things have changed since then. To be blunt, politics in the US has
gotten much uglier. In most elections, both sides encourage (or at least
don't discourage) polarization, anger, and hatred.
Meanwhile, in those ten years, the list membership has grown considerably
(that's a good thing), and its character has changed to some degree (as has
that of the entire Internet).
In the last couple of years, some list members have gotten caught up in the
recent US political climate, and the result has been wrangling which too often
degenerates into name-calling and insults. And it's all to no avail, because
no one really changes his views! While there's been some admirable
restraint from some other foks here, for which I'm grateful, partisan political
comments have still too often caused a massive hit to the list's signal to
noise ratio.
Therefore, I've asked members to refrain from discussing politics except in
the most general, non-partisan forms. The example I've often used is that it's
entirely reasonable to comment that "in the current political environment, we
probably shouldn't expect subsidies for BEV development." That's not an
indictment of any candidate or party, it's a fairly realistic observation, and
there's no reason it should offend anybody on either side of the political
spectrum. We can and should discuss ways to promote EV development,
and there's no reason we can't do so without deprecating any individual
political candidate or party.
Please note that I've ASKED this of the members, not commanded it. I'm not
interested in being an authoritarian figure, nor do I have the means to enforce
that request without far more effort than I care to expend. I "manage" by
nudges and example. If that's not enough, then I'll seek someone else to
serve as assistant administrator here. Life's too short to do a job you hate -
especially when you're not being paid. <g>
So I'll reiterate: please, no partisan politics on the EV list. Be very
careful
about invoking any political figure or party by name.
I ask those who prefer not to use that restraint to voluntarily limit their
posts
here, and direct their political remarks to the V is for Voltage forum, which
has a category specifically for EV politics:
http://visforvoltage.com/forums/
Thanks to Ken Trough for making the V is for Voltage forum available, and for
having the foresight to provide a venue where participants can have political
exchanges without drowning out technical discussions.
Tthanks also to the many EV list members who HAVE been cooperative and
thoughtful in limiting political commentary in their posts.
Now, back to the garage. <g>
David
Assistant EV List Administrator
(and sometime Topic Cop)
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