EV Digest 4263
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Has Anybody Seen My Grin?
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Zilla tach output - was Raptors
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45 - specs?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Most unusual EV experience
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) 12volt 24 volt Help
by "Catherine C. Burgard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) This is only Temporary...
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: RangerEVs on eBay
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: RangerEVs on eBay
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: pusher to electric
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Time for some Wayland wiring on the golf cart
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Craig Vetter aerodynamics expert shows how to get 500 mph in the real
world. This happened 20 years ago.
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: How many Wh does your vehicle average?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Craig Vetter aerodynamics expert shows how to get 500 mph in the real
world. This happened 20 years ago.
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EVLN(Montana State University EV)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Craig Vetter aerodynamics expert shows how to get 500 mph in the
real world. This happened 20 years ago.
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
About the subject line...it's sung to the tune of "Has anybody seen my gal?"
I am probably jumping the gun here... but I am SO close to regaining
that EV Grin.....that I had to send this off.
Brian Hall and I have been re-configuring and "re-packing"(with my
Optimas from WATTABMR) his oh-so-fine customized Porsche (see EV Album)
in my shop, and we are within hours of completing it. I am going to be
EV Grinning again in a big way! The Gogomobil is fun, but not quick or
sporty...The Porsche is BOTH! I have really missed the smooth quick
responsiveness and comfortable ride I had in the BMW.
Michael B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They can be a little complicated to get going. Like a diode across the
input and resistors and connections from the output to some connections for
regulating voltage output I think. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45
That's odd. Halted has them listed as "New" and I've never known them to
sell defective parts without stating that they're defective.
I tested a few of these from Halted. They were all
bad. The Sparrow uses a similar model of Vicor. I
first thought I had found a source. It was too good
to be true though.
Ed Ang
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I kow there are a few folks out there looking for
affordable DC-DC
converters. While searching for something else, I
came across this:
http://www.halted.com/ccp11977-dc-dc-converter-150v-15v-600watt-vi-n52-em-19678.htm
It's a Vicor Mega Mod:
Input 100V-200V (150V nominal) brown out at 85V
Output 15V +-10% @ 40 Amps
I believe some other folks ahve used these in EVs,
so perhaps they can
comment on suitability, but at only $45 seems like
too good of a deal to
pass up (I ordered one).
__________________________________
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Someone else might have already commented on the Zilla's tach ability.
But all the same, yes, the Zilla does have a pulse output for driving a
standard 4 or 6 cylinder tachometer. Some tachs (like on the 200sx)
require a high-voltage pulse. I believe this is mostly on pre-90's
vehicles, and not all of them at that. A great schematic was posted on
the EV Tech list a while back for building a high-voltage driver. I'll
be implementing this in the next few months.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No output. This was last summer. I connected a
proper trimming circuit to trim them down to 13.8V. I
also tried various tricks, but still no output.
The units looked new, but the paper boxes were
yellowish. And, if I remember correctly, the
manufactured date written on the units was 1995 or so.
They might have gotten some new shipments since then.
Other than those, I have never had any problem with
Halted. And, I still go there every now and then.
Edward Ang
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Edward Ang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I tested a few of these from Halted. They were
> all
> > bad.
>
> Bad in what way? A local EVer bought one of these
> from Halted and it is
> working fine in his Fiero.
>
> Seems rather odd that every one you checked was
> 'bad', yet a random
> sample shipped to this fellow seems to work just
> fine.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal writes:
> FWIW the part number translates like this:
> VI-N = single output, 300-600W
> 5 = 150V input
> 2 = 15V output
> E = -10C to 85C
> M = 600W output current
>
> OBTW it has a 'trim' control that should allow you to turn that 15V down
> to 13.8V if you wanted too, or 14.5V for optimum performance (simulates
> typical alternator output) from your headlights etc.
FWIW, I've been intending to use one of these in my conversion (still waiting
for it to arrive), and was told by a Vicor Engineer that, for a 13.8V output,
simply put a 115K resistor between -Out/-S and T(rim), which are pins "B" and
"C". Unconfirmed, so remember how much you paid for this advice.
Cheers,
Claudio
(who is off to find out how much it'll cost to get a "spare" shipped to
Australia via Halted)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you are thinking of the Vicor power modules (or whatever they call
them) this particular package is a complete DC-DC converter; logic,
regulator, and power stage.
> They can be a little complicated to get going. Like a diode across the
> input and resistors and connections from the output to some connections
> for
> regulating voltage output I think. LR..........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Cheap DC/DC converters 600W Vicor Mega Mod $45
>
>
>> That's odd. Halted has them listed as "New" and I've never known them
>> to
>> sell defective parts without stating that they're defective.
>>
>>
>>> I tested a few of these from Halted. They were all
>>> bad. The Sparrow uses a similar model of Vicor. I
>>> first thought I had found a source. It was too good
>>> to be true though.
>>>
>>> Ed Ang
>>>
>>> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> I kow there are a few folks out there looking for
>>>> affordable DC-DC
>>>> converters. While searching for something else, I
>>>> came across this:
>>>>
>>> http://www.halted.com/ccp11977-dc-dc-converter-150v-15v-600watt-vi-n52-em-19678.htm
>>>>
>>>> It's a Vicor Mega Mod:
>>>> Input 100V-200V (150V nominal) brown out at 85V
>>>> Output 15V +-10% @ 40 Amps
>>>>
>>>> I believe some other folks ahve used these in EVs,
>>>> so perhaps they can
>>>> comment on suitability, but at only $45 seems like
>>>> too good of a deal to
>>>> pass up (I ordered one).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Yahoo! Messenger
>>> Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
>>> http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can just barely get 50Ah at C/1 from a Deka gel group 27 battery
that is ~50% heavier.
On Apr 6, 2005, at 1:09 PM, Otmar wrote:
At 11:38 AM -0700 4-4-05, Lee Hart wrote:
Note
that the Optimas/Orbitals can only deliver 50 amps for about an hour,
so
you'd be driving at 40 miles per hour.
Boy! Can I get some of those!? :-)
In my experience 50 amp hours in an hour is not a number you should
plan on from a Optima or Orbital in my book.
If you keep them at 120 deg F, and take the best Optima you can find I
think you may get there. But I find that 33 Ahr is more reasonable,
and Orbitals are lower.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's that time in the South. Yep, mowing season. Any nice day is full of the
sounds of infernal combustion engines.
My daughter (who will be two on the 19th) hates the things. She'll yell and run
to mom or dad when one goes down the road(local kids run alawn service.)
This past weekend I'm mowing with my I-5. She stood at the door, or on the
other side of the yard with mom and watched.
So yesterday I'm mowing the small yard with the E-12, and she starts calling me
from the door of the house. So I turn off the blades and pick her up for a
couple of laps around the yard. She loved it. So I decide on a little test, I
turn on the blades. She jumped slightly, but did not seemto mind.
We made a couple of passes and parked it to charge for the night.
Today, she kept telling my wife, all day, "Mow! Mow! Mow!" So my wife mowed
the front yard with the little one on her lap. When the bats got too weak
(these are very old and only good forabout 3/4 acre) they parked it to charge.
When I got home her first words were "Mow daddy, mow!" So we finished the yard.
The really strange part is,she fell asleep 1/2way through the yard.
How many mowers can lull a toddler to sleep? I'm going toput a double seat on
both tractors so she can ride.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK all you EV wizards, I need alittle help. My commuta car runs on 48 volts (
8 six volt batteries). I have a DC DC converter that runs all the dash,
lights, etc. Here's the problem. My forward /reverse contactor works with 24
volts. The switch from the dash to the contactor is 12 volts. Does any one
know how I could wire it so I could get 24 volts to it? I have an idea but not
sure it would work.
Thanks
Catherine
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Going to check out for a few days, ( to save my INBOX being hopelesly
overloaded in my absense... )
We will "sign back in soon"
Yours truly from Seattle and SEVA
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"The battery boxes"! I thought it was one long box from the rear-end to the
firewall that required a special lift, or was that the GM Mega-Vans?
BB
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:18:00 -0700
>
>Yes. Since these are trucks it would be easy to modify the battery boxes
>and put flooded or Exide batteries. Probably sealed. Flooded might make it
>a bit porky. LR........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope, the Rangers are the ones. The have a long battery enclosure that runs
2/3rd's of the length under the truck to hold the batteries. It is a very
heavy enclosure and Ford techs use a special lift; however a support lift
can made easy enough.
The other option is to support the battery enclosure and lift the truck off
and over the batteries. With some floor dollies, this wouldn't be hard to
do. I've talked to a couple of folks who have tried this.
FYI, pictures of the Rangers that Broward is and will be auctioning can be
seen here:
http://www.suncoast.net/evrangers
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David (Battery Boy) Hawkins
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:13 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: RangerEVs on eBay
"The battery boxes"! I thought it was one long box from the rear-end to the
firewall that required a special lift, or was that the GM Mega-Vans?
BB
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:18:00 -0700
>
>Yes. Since these are trucks it would be easy to modify the battery boxes
>and put flooded or Exide batteries. Probably sealed. Flooded might make
it
>a bit porky. LR........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
It's called "bulk" charging! You can hump a lot of current into the
batteries up to the gassing voltage of 2.4 volts per cell. As others have
said, use a smaller pack, but then you could do a bulk charge instead of
swapping batteries if you couldn't finish the mowing job. I drove my truck
60 miles today with a bulk charge in between one of the trips, using both
the on-board Zivan (13 amps) charger and off-board FrankenLester (30 amps)
charger. Think big amps from a cheap dumb Lester type charger, and a finish
charge with a smart charger(s)!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:19:51 -0700
>From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Dave wrote:
>> I want to make an electric mower also. I am tired of gas. One prob
>> I can see is getting it too heavy, and being unable to maneuver it,
>> or it sinking in softer ground.
>
>The answer to this is to have two battery packs, which are easy to
>replace. Install one pack and mow while the other is on the charger.
>When the one on the mower runs down, swap packs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I pulled the 400A Cursit control from my 1995 Club Car
tonight and found that a power cables insulation
melted
through and shorted out terminals on the control.
The control is probably blown and I'll have to rebuild
it. I guess I should have spent a little more time
routing the cables. I guess the quick and dirty
installation caused more work than doing it correct in
the beginning. If the Cursit is blown I will probably
install the 600A sepex control I aquired from Turbo
Mike.
This will require a new motor installation as well.
I guess that sepex motor I saved from GE days will
come in handy (this was a motor we pulled from a golf
cart so we could put in a 72Vdc for NEV development).
I'm putting in 150Vdc semiconductors on the control so
I can go up to 80Vdc or higher battery pack (BB600's
at Tim Humphreys place). 80Vdc on a 48Vdc sepex motor
should give pretty decent performance. We'll see how
it performs and I'll report progress.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:
> Could a gain (lower) in CD be achieved by using separated or no
> fenders on the front wheels of a VW?
Seth Allen wrote:
>> No. Leave the fenders on. A spinning wheel induces
>> a lot of drag.
jerry dycus replied:
> Not as much drag as those fenders! What it will do
> is create a smaller wind shadow behind it so larger
> vortexes, thus drag, don't come from the rear of the
> fenders.
My understanding is that this is not a simple question, nor is there a
simple "right" answer. Here's some information I got from the
Experimental Aircraft Association. They are *really* interested in drag
reduction!
When you have a tire just hung out in the air (airplane with
non-retractible landing gear), it has the least wind resistance when it
is NOT turning. If it starts to spin (for instance, because one side is
closer to the fuselage and so the airspeed over it is a bit different
than the bottom of the tire), then its drag increases. The faster it
spins, the greater the drag. So, pilots will set the brakes to keep the
wheel from spinning.
But, most planes put their tires in "skirts"; the lower half open, and
the upper half inside a streamlined fender. This reduces drag. The tire
can still spin (from the air blowing over the bottom). Interestingly
enough, the drag still increases if the wheel spins. Why? You might
think that the motion of the bottom side of the tire reduces the
airspeed over it, and so would reduce drag. That's true; but the top
side of the tire is then moving *into* the wind and adding drag. So any
time the tire is turning, drag is increased, skirt or no skirt.
If you test a stationary car in a wind tunnel with the tires not
turning, you get the same result as an airplane -- a tire in a fender
has less drag. But, when spin the tire (test in a wind tunnel with a
moving road, or driving on a real road) the aerodynamic drag will always
increase, fender or no fender.
With no fender, the top of the tire is moving forward thru the air at
*double* the speed. The bottom of the tire is motionless relative to the
air. Since aerodynamic drag goes up as the square of the speed, the drag
added by the top is much more than the drag removed from the bottom. I
don't have numbers, and they would of course be affected by the tread
pattern, but I wouldn't be surprised if a spinning tire has double the
drag of the same tire when stationary.
When you add a fender, things get even more complicated. You've
eliminated the air moving over the top half at double the airspeed. But
the fender also increases the frontal area of the wheel. You'll also
trap air between the tire and fender, and will have turbulent flow at
the speed the car is moving. In effect, you've built a fan, sucking air
in behind the tire, pumping it across the top, and out the front.
Depending on how closely spaced the fender and tire are, the tread
pattern, etc. this fan might produce enough pressure to blow air
forward; or the air pressure in front of the tire may be strong enough
to blow air back across the tire backwards.
Engineers keep changing their minds about the best way to build fenders.
My understanding is that the current thinking is that the inside of the
fender well should be smooth and round, conforming to the tire. It
should have a "moderate" spacing; not so large that air flows from front
to rear, yet not so small that it gets pumped from rear to front.
At the left and right edges, the fender should come as close to the tire
as possible, to minimize air leakage. The tire itself will then have a
smooth flat hubcap, so the profile from the side is as flat and smooth
as possible. The extreme version of this is a full fender skirt like the
Honda Insight.
There's an interesting aspect that I don't think has been studied. A
spinning tire intrinsically works as a fan. Perhaps there is a way to
use it for cooling purposes. It already incidentaly helps cool the brake
drum/disk, shock absorber, and tire. Perhaps the rear tires could also
pump air in behind the car to "fill in" the partial vacuum behind it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if you could fab some fenders that attach to the knuckle, and
"float" with the wheel assembly, like some T-buckets have. A full cover
inside and out...
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:
Could a gain (lower) in CD be achieved by using separated or no
fenders on the front wheels of a VW?
Seth Allen wrote:
No. Leave the fenders on. A spinning wheel induces
a lot of drag.
jerry dycus replied:
Not as much drag as those fenders! What it will do
is create a smaller wind shadow behind it so larger
vortexes, thus drag, don't come from the rear of the
fenders.
My understanding is that this is not a simple question, nor is there a
simple "right" answer. Here's some information I got from the
Experimental Aircraft Association. They are *really* interested in drag
reduction!
When you have a tire just hung out in the air (airplane with
non-retractible landing gear), it has the least wind resistance when it
is NOT turning. If it starts to spin (for instance, because one side is
closer to the fuselage and so the airspeed over it is a bit different
than the bottom of the tire), then its drag increases. The faster it
spins, the greater the drag. So, pilots will set the brakes to keep the
wheel from spinning.
But, most planes put their tires in "skirts"; the lower half open, and
the upper half inside a streamlined fender. This reduces drag. The tire
can still spin (from the air blowing over the bottom). Interestingly
enough, the drag still increases if the wheel spins. Why? You might
think that the motion of the bottom side of the tire reduces the
airspeed over it, and so would reduce drag. That's true; but the top
side of the tire is then moving *into* the wind and adding drag. So any
time the tire is turning, drag is increased, skirt or no skirt.
If you test a stationary car in a wind tunnel with the tires not
turning, you get the same result as an airplane -- a tire in a fender
has less drag. But, when spin the tire (test in a wind tunnel with a
moving road, or driving on a real road) the aerodynamic drag will always
increase, fender or no fender.
With no fender, the top of the tire is moving forward thru the air at
*double* the speed. The bottom of the tire is motionless relative to the
air. Since aerodynamic drag goes up as the square of the speed, the drag
added by the top is much more than the drag removed from the bottom. I
don't have numbers, and they would of course be affected by the tread
pattern, but I wouldn't be surprised if a spinning tire has double the
drag of the same tire when stationary.
When you add a fender, things get even more complicated. You've
eliminated the air moving over the top half at double the airspeed. But
the fender also increases the frontal area of the wheel. You'll also
trap air between the tire and fender, and will have turbulent flow at
the speed the car is moving. In effect, you've built a fan, sucking air
in behind the tire, pumping it across the top, and out the front.
Depending on how closely spaced the fender and tire are, the tread
pattern, etc. this fan might produce enough pressure to blow air
forward; or the air pressure in front of the tire may be strong enough
to blow air back across the tire backwards.
Engineers keep changing their minds about the best way to build fenders.
My understanding is that the current thinking is that the inside of the
fender well should be smooth and round, conforming to the tire. It
should have a "moderate" spacing; not so large that air flows from front
to rear, yet not so small that it gets pumped from rear to front.
At the left and right edges, the fender should come as close to the tire
as possible, to minimize air leakage. The tire itself will then have a
smooth flat hubcap, so the profile from the side is as flat and smooth
as possible. The extreme version of this is a full fender skirt like the
Honda Insight.
There's an interesting aspect that I don't think has been studied. A
spinning tire intrinsically works as a fan. Perhaps there is a way to
use it for cooling purposes. It already incidentaly helps cool the brake
drum/disk, shock absorber, and tire. Perhaps the rear tires could also
pump air in behind the car to "fill in" the partial vacuum behind it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
>
> I wonder if you could fab some fenders that attach to the knuckle, and
> "float" with the wheel assembly, like some T-buckets have. A full cover
> inside and out...
I'm sure you could. But, now you have the centrifugal fan effect for the
air trapped between the tire and fender.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vent holes? I'm just spit-ballin' here
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
Dave wrote:
I wonder if you could fab some fenders that attach to the knuckle, and
"float" with the wheel assembly, like some T-buckets have. A full cover
inside and out...
I'm sure you could. But, now you have the centrifugal fan effect for the
air trapped between the tire and fender.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and all,
I think you mean mpg and not mph. Very interesting, but it's worth noting
that those are all two-wheeled vehicles. The best mpg I've seen in a
4-wheeled vehicle is VW's 1-liter concept car. It is a 2-seat, tandem
seating (like the Tango), diesel-electric hybrid, not a plug-in hybrid, just
a straight hybrid like the current crop of Hondas and Toyotas. It consumes
less than 1 liter per 100 km in highway driving; the specific mileage works
out to something like 260 mpg. Former VW Chairman Dr. Ferdinand Piech
achieved that mileage in driving the car around Germany on the autobahns a
few years ago. The body is all-composite. I'm not sure whether the frame
is also composite, or maybe aluminum; I assume it's likely not steel. The
car is relatively small, maybe around the size and shape of a Porsche
Spyder, but a bit narrower and with a bubble canopy rather than open-air.
And yes, you're right in the main point you're making, namely that
aerodynamics are very important; I'd also add weight as a very important
factor.
Has anyone seen any better mileage than this (260 mpg) in a 4-wheeled
vehicle (with at least 2 seats)?
Also, while on this subject, I'd like to add that I find the current very
prominent national discourse about, and advocacy of, PiHEVs by the some of
the most politically influential people to be analytically fallacious and
fraudulent, where they are claiming 250-500 mpg PiHEVs are possible using
today's technology. They arrive at those figures by counting only the
gasoline or diesel but not taking into account the electricity put into the
vehicle from charging. To be analytically consistent, one has to account
for all of the energy put into the vehicle from all sources, including both
petroleum and electricity, in order to do an apples-to-apples comparison
with either ICEVs (including HEVs, which can be considered ICEVs from a
fuel-source standpoint, since they are entirely dependent on petroleum) or
with BEVs. As I recall, I think the equivalency/conversion factor is around
33.75 kWh per gallon of gasoline (i.e. a gallon of gasoline contains 33.75
kWh worth of energy). So for a PiHEV, either convert the gasoline to kWh
(by multiplying the number of gallons times 33.75) and then add that to the
electricity put in from charging to get a total kWh figure, and then divide
that by the number of miles to arrive at a composite Wh/mile figure; or go
the other way around, i.e. convert the electricity put in from charging to
an equivalent number of gallons of gasoline by dividing by 33.75, and then
add that to the actual gallons of gasoline put in the vehicle to arrive at
total gallons, and then divide that into miles to get a composite mpg
figure. I would guess that the true, honest, analytically-consistent figure
will likely fall somewhere in the 60-120 mpg range for a 4-wheeled PiHEV the
size of the Prius. This doesn't mean that I am panning PiHEVs. Quite to
the contrary, I think PiHEVs are a big improvement (over the status quo), a
step in the right direction, and will serve as a critically important
transitional bridging technology for the masses to slowly wean them off of
the 4-minute gas pump and get them to gradually accept the 4-8 hour
electrical outlet (while they are sleeping, since everyone's got to sleep
sometime, right?), by letting them dip their toes in the water and have the
reassurance and redundancy of having both the old and the new technology at
the same time, so that they have that security blanket of always being able
to fall back on the old gas pump whenever they want to or need to, because
we all know that old habits die hard and human beings (especially adult
human beings) are creatures of habit plagued by enormous inertia. The only
thing I don't like is all of this analytical dishonesty and fraudulent hype
about 250-500 mpg PiHEVs. But I *do* think it is enormously helpful to have
all of these prominent, politically-influential people on all ends of the
political spectrum coming together in a national consensus to push for
PiHEVs. Once the public begins to toy with accepting the idea of the 4-8
hour electrical outlet and even just tries it out in baby steps and gets a
taste of real independence, the handwriting will be on the wall that the
days of the gas pump are numbered.
Charles Whalen
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html
Aerodynamics are very important regardless of the motive power. The
designs shown above will increase efficiency thus allowing a vehicle to go
further using less energy. The results speak for themselves.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:08 PM 4/6/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
At the left and right edges, the fender should come as close to the tire
as possible, to minimize air leakage. The tire itself will then have a
smooth flat hubcap, so the profile from the side is as flat and smooth
as possible. The extreme version of this is a full fender skirt like the
Honda Insight.
I've been trying to think of ways to reduce the power consumption on my
Sparrow. One thing I had thought of is to build covers that fit over the
openings in the front fenders. Of course they would be in the way when you
turn sharply, but that is only done at low speed, and there could probably
be a fairly simple mechanism to extend the covers out during sharp turns.
So, is it likely that full fender side covers would help?
Probably need a wind tunnel with rollers to find out. sigh.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> At 11:38 AM -0700 4-4-05, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >Note
> >that the Optimas/Orbitals can only deliver 50 amps for about an hour, so
> >you'd be driving at 40 miles per hour.
>
> Boy! Can I get some of those!? :-)
>
> In my experience 50 amp hours in an hour is not a number you should
> plan on from a Optima or Orbital in my book.
>
> If you keep them at 120 deg F, and take the best Optima you can find
> I think you may get there. But I find that 33 Ahr is more reasonable,
> and Orbitals are lower.
Ouch! Ya caught me fair and square, Otmar. I meant to write 50 amps for
"30 minutes" (thus the comment about speed).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooh. One thing I forgot about is the brakes. They like a lot of nice cool
air to stay healthy. Hmmm...Maybe a duct on the backside...
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Aero drag and VW fenders.
At 04:08 PM 4/6/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
At the left and right edges, the fender should come as close to the tire
as possible, to minimize air leakage. The tire itself will then have a
smooth flat hubcap, so the profile from the side is as flat and smooth
as possible. The extreme version of this is a full fender skirt like the
Honda Insight.
I've been trying to think of ways to reduce the power consumption on my
Sparrow. One thing I had thought of is to build covers that fit over the
openings in the front fenders. Of course they would be in the way when
you turn sharply, but that is only done at low speed, and there could
probably be a fairly simple mechanism to extend the covers out during
sharp turns.
So, is it likely that full fender side covers would help?
Probably need a wind tunnel with rollers to find out. sigh.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The articles I've read were clear to point out that
they were talking about miles per gallon of PETROLEUM.
Pointing out that some of the consumtion could be
offset by Methanol or Biodiesel and the rest by
electricity. If someone is taking the statements out
of context then there is a problem. I believe the
discussion of alternate fuel plug in hybrids has
become a discusson of national security to reduce the
need for imported petroleum. I hope that argument
works! maybe then there will be money for electrics.
Gadget
> Also, while on this subject, I'd like to add that I
> find the current very
> prominent national discourse about, and advocacy of,
> PiHEVs by the some of
> the most politically influential people to be
> analytically fallacious and
> fraudulent, where they are claiming 250-500 mpg
> PiHEVs are possible using
> today's technology. They arrive at those figures by
> counting only the
> gasoline or diesel but not taking into account the
> electricity put into the
> vehicle from charging.
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Every year I take an EV over to the "environmental" class at the local high
school and give them my talk about how great electric power is. Most of the
kids take the class because it's an easy credit, and they aren't all that
concerned about saving the world as teenagers. The boys do care about
"power" and "tire smoke", so I make sure they have visited the NEDRA
website on the Internet, among others, prior to my arrival. One of John
Bryan's NEDRA videos also helps!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:09:56 -0500
>
>bruce parmenter quoted from article:
>
>>The vehicle is "cool," eighth-grade student Tom Hargrove
>>said.
>>But as a young man partial to speed, he wouldn't want
>>one.
>
>Someone needs to show this brat Blue Meanie, White Zombie,
>California Poppy, Maniac Mazda, KAZ, Eliica, the TZero, and
>many others! An EV would seem right up his alley with all
>its "low-end torque". :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-vw-1-liter-car.htm
8.5hp 300CC diesel, not hybrid. fully fendered, with rears covered.
Wandering OT here, but a good place to look at if you want to get ideas
for a radical system level approach to efficiency.
Lowest peak power
Highest efficiency plant
Lightest mass
Low drag
Pains to reduce parasistics (other articles mention xenon lamps, etc)
About 500Wh/ mile from liquid fuel, or as a guess at efficiency,
170-250 Wh/ mile from the crank.
Seth
On Apr 6, 2005, at 8:49 PM, Charles Whalen wrote:
Hi Lawrence and all,
I think you mean mpg and not mph. Very interesting, but it's worth
noting
that those are all two-wheeled vehicles. The best mpg I've seen in a
4-wheeled vehicle is VW's 1-liter concept car. It is a 2-seat, tandem
seating (like the Tango), diesel-electric hybrid, not a plug-in
hybrid, just
a straight hybrid like the current crop of Hondas and Toyotas. It
consumes
less than 1 liter per 100 km in highway driving; the specific mileage
works
out to something like 260 mpg. Former VW Chairman Dr. Ferdinand Piech
achieved that mileage in driving the car around Germany on the
autobahns a
few years ago. The body is all-composite. I'm not sure whether the
frame
is also composite, or maybe aluminum; I assume it's likely not steel.
The
car is relatively small, maybe around the size and shape of a Porsche
Spyder, but a bit narrower and with a bubble canopy rather than
open-air.
And yes, you're right in the main point you're making, namely that
aerodynamics are very important; I'd also add weight as a very
important
factor.
Has anyone seen any better mileage than this (260 mpg) in a 4-wheeled
vehicle (with at least 2 seats)?
Also, while on this subject, I'd like to add that I find the current
very
prominent national discourse about, and advocacy of, PiHEVs by the
some of
the most politically influential people to be analytically fallacious
and
fraudulent, where they are claiming 250-500 mpg PiHEVs are possible
using
today's technology. They arrive at those figures by counting only the
gasoline or diesel but not taking into account the electricity put
into the
vehicle from charging. To be analytically consistent, one has to
account
for all of the energy put into the vehicle from all sources, including
both
petroleum and electricity, in order to do an apples-to-apples
comparison
with either ICEVs (including HEVs, which can be considered ICEVs from a
fuel-source standpoint, since they are entirely dependent on
petroleum) or
with BEVs. As I recall, I think the equivalency/conversion factor is
around
33.75 kWh per gallon of gasoline (i.e. a gallon of gasoline contains
33.75
kWh worth of energy). So for a PiHEV, either convert the gasoline to
kWh
(by multiplying the number of gallons times 33.75) and then add that
to the
electricity put in from charging to get a total kWh figure, and then
divide
that by the number of miles to arrive at a composite Wh/mile figure;
or go
the other way around, i.e. convert the electricity put in from
charging to
an equivalent number of gallons of gasoline by dividing by 33.75, and
then
add that to the actual gallons of gasoline put in the vehicle to
arrive at
total gallons, and then divide that into miles to get a composite mpg
figure. I would guess that the true, honest, analytically-consistent
figure
will likely fall somewhere in the 60-120 mpg range for a 4-wheeled
PiHEV the
size of the Prius. This doesn't mean that I am panning PiHEVs. Quite
to
the contrary, I think PiHEVs are a big improvement (over the status
quo), a
step in the right direction, and will serve as a critically important
transitional bridging technology for the masses to slowly wean them
off of
the 4-minute gas pump and get them to gradually accept the 4-8 hour
electrical outlet (while they are sleeping, since everyone's got to
sleep
sometime, right?), by letting them dip their toes in the water and
have the
reassurance and redundancy of having both the old and the new
technology at
the same time, so that they have that security blanket of always being
able
to fall back on the old gas pump whenever they want to or need to,
because
we all know that old habits die hard and human beings (especially adult
human beings) are creatures of habit plagued by enormous inertia. The
only
thing I don't like is all of this analytical dishonesty and fraudulent
hype
about 250-500 mpg PiHEVs. But I *do* think it is enormously helpful
to have
all of these prominent, politically-influential people on all ends of
the
political spectrum coming together in a national consensus to push for
PiHEVs. Once the public begins to toy with accepting the idea of the
4-8
hour electrical outlet and even just tries it out in baby steps and
gets a
taste of real independence, the handwriting will be on the wall that
the
days of the gas pump are numbered.
Charles Whalen
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html
Aerodynamics are very important regardless of the motive power. The
designs shown above will increase efficiency thus allowing a vehicle
to go
further using less energy. The results speak for themselves.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
