EV Digest 4287
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: genset trailer evolved into transmission gearing??
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Wire Gauge questions
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 98 Ranger EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Genset
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) DMM as a Meter(w/ onboard PC); LEDs; Emissions Testing
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DMM as a Meter(w/ onboard PC); LEDs; Emissions Testing
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Genset
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
by jimevdl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Fw: Wassup? Tell him about EV's, Maybe, In our Corner?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wassup? Tell him about EV's, Maybe, In our Corner?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) warp 9 resistance
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: warp 9 resistance
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Massive? What 60 or 70 lbs (in a small car)?
I guess they are almost 2% of the typical EVs weight. Of course a
Continuously Variable (CV) belt drive large enough to handle the power of
the typical road going EV is going to weigh almost as much...
While they appear to work ok in go-carts and they have been used in EVs in
the past (and perhaps even present?). Most folks have found belt driven
CV transmissions to have such poor efficiency that they would rather use
"massive" transmissions and get more range.
> Because unnecessary weight is everything to acceleration and range, the
> massive transmission should be viewed with suspicion. Formula 440 race
> cars have used variable belt drives (one fixed and one centrifugally
> variable pulley) under extreme conditions for some time. They are
> exceptionally light, simple and, with maintenance, durable. Anyone messed
> with these puppies?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides!
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi.
I love the A-100. There's a guy down the street with an A-100 single-cab
pickup that looks like it would make a great conversion. Smaller frontal
area than a typical van and lots of carrying capacity.
Please keep us updated on your progress. (Maybe take some photos and
document the process on your website?)
Tim
-----
> From: "Lord Khaos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:47:29 -0700
>
> Thanks for the welcome and already more options to play with from several
> members. For my first attempt, I am going to try and keep costs down, Around
> 5K or so, not including batterys, and simplicity up. A single DC (9") motor
> seems to be a commen starting point w/ a 144 v system. The van is a manual
> 3 spd, and conviently has a payload rating (from the factory) of over 2000#.
> Subtracting the weight of a cast iron V-8, cooling system and exhaust, I
> figure this should leave me lots of room in the weight dept. to play with
> and am hoping to order the kit within a week or so.
>
> Im not aiming at high speed yet, if I can do 50-60 and make it to work and
> back, I will achive my first goal. Although after reading through some of
> the racing pages, and already being a 1/4 mile junkie myself, if the van
> goes well, I have another one in the back yard.
>
> The commute to work I am hoping to be able to do round trip is about 20
> miles and has some mild hills and is only rural highways, so I can take it
> easy for the most part. Charging at work is also the main goal (hydro
> power) but I have 220vac ready available at home as well.
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--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
I guess things are different out here on the left
coast. There is a training facility across the street
from my shop (next to the tow yard where they get the
wrecks to practice on) where they teach fire training
exercises, rescue, and training on the use of the jaws
of life. These are the people I asked on the issue of
wire color.
Yeah, one of the groups I asked does the same stuff. They often have
burned and crashed cars in their back parking lot, which is clearly
visible through a chain-link fence from the facility where I work. It
can be quite startling. Just yesterday, it appeared that a Lincoln
Towncar was attempting to mate with an old-style Toyota Tercel.
But maybe they are more attuned to EV's
and Hybrids because there were and are so many of them
here. You can't swat a fly around here without seeing
a Prius or some other hybrid. and there are still
quite a few of the rav-4 ev's running around.
Sounds like Heaven. We're starting to see Priuses (Prii?) here in
Disney, but for some reason the auto companies seem to think Floridians
wouldn't want electric cars. You'd think Florida would be good for
solar power, too, but no...
Maybe the rescue workers will be trained when there are more cars. Or
maybe there was only a big fuss about safety in California. That seems
to be where all the automotive action is, what with CARB and all.
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Otmar. What do you think of the two motors out of that forklift you
don't want in a VW Super beetle with 96 or more volts. I could do as much
as 240vdc in a small 680 pound pack. Think I'd be grinnin? Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: 98 Ranger EV
At 4:04 PM -0400 4-16-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am falling in love with this EV.
Dead on arrival from the auction its battery pack only had 400+ miles on
it.
Thanks to Rich grayman Rudman we are getting 35 miles per charge.
He loaned me an avcon. I have over 400 miles on it myself
with the ac on.
Dennis Berube
Could it be that Dennis will get hooked on street EV's in addition to
racing?
I think he's got that EV Grin and now there is no going back!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Trivia note: The show car "Deora" was an A-100, slightly customized.
http://www.bonediggers.com/1-2/deora/deora.html
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
Hi.
I love the A-100. There's a guy down the street with an A-100 single-cab
pickup that looks like it would make a great conversion. Smaller frontal
area than a typical van and lots of carrying capacity.
Please keep us updated on your progress. (Maybe take some photos and
document the process on your website?)
Tim
-----
From: "Lord Khaos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Another Newbie joins the ranks.
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:47:29 -0700
Thanks for the welcome and already more options to play with from several
members. For my first attempt, I am going to try and keep costs down,
Around
5K or so, not including batterys, and simplicity up. A single DC (9")
motor
seems to be a commen starting point w/ a 144 v system. The van is a
manual
3 spd, and conviently has a payload rating (from the factory) of over
2000#.
Subtracting the weight of a cast iron V-8, cooling system and exhaust, I
figure this should leave me lots of room in the weight dept. to play with
and am hoping to order the kit within a week or so.
Im not aiming at high speed yet, if I can do 50-60 and make it to work
and
back, I will achive my first goal. Although after reading through some
of
the racing pages, and already being a 1/4 mile junkie myself, if the van
goes well, I have another one in the back yard.
The commute to work I am hoping to be able to do round trip is about 20
miles and has some mild hills and is only rural highways, so I can take
it
easy for the most part. Charging at work is also the main goal (hydro
power) but I have 220vac ready available at home as well.
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--- Begin Message ---
Kevin, don't be scared off by suggestions that you need pricey stuff like
double motors and huge (read: expensive) quantities of "sealed" batteries,
and that you'll have to cut huge chunks out of your van. That's only one
of the many opinions you'll probably get about what you should do. There
will be a lot of contradiction, because there's an almost infinite number of
ways to convert!
Personally, I think you're right to start with a more modest conversion with
modest performance. You can upgrade later if you decide you need more zoom.
That said, your van maybe isn't the best conversion candidate. Its
areodynamics aren't great, so highway range may be compromised.
Fortuanately that will have less effect on in-town range. Besides, the
weight isn't that bad - your van isn't any heavier than many of the "light"
pickups that get converted fairly often. And I think it's always good to
start with something you like.
Kits? Sure. OK, there are (again) some folks here who will scream at the
idea, but there are some well-established EV parts suppliers who can help
you with packages of parts to get you started and sensible advice.
KTA Services - Ken Koch is one of the pioneers.
http://www.kta-ev.com
Electro Automotive - Mike Brown is also a highly regarded EVer, thoughtful
and helpful.
http://www.electroauto.com/
Electric Vehicles of America - Bob Batson is a big proponent of pickup
conversions. Have a chat with him though.
http://www.ev-america.com/
These folks have many years of experience at integrating parts into a
conversion. There are several other suppliers too - EVParts is kind of an
ev parts supermarket, and Randy Holmquist at Canadian EV has some
interesting ideas, and that's just two.
BTW, if you're not dead set on converting now, buying a used EV is probably
an even BETTER approach. Drive it for a year or two, fix it, improve it,
and THEN you'll be in a better position to know what you want to do with
your Dodge.
But getting back to the van: You can get your 50 miles of range with about
40% of the vehicle mass in lead. If we assume that your van will weigh
about 2800 lb after removing the ICE bits, adding about 1800 lb of lead will
get you there. That's 26 T-145 size golf car batteries. That would make a
156 volt pack, a good moderate voltage (by current standards). It won't win
any races, but the acceleration will be adequate unless you drive on Los
Angeles expressways in rush hour.
Another option: 28 T-105 size batteries (168 volts) would weigh about the
same and provide about the same range and, all other things being equal,
probably a bit more acceleration. But this higher voltage would narrow the
possibilities for controllers and probably raise the total cost.
Speaking of cost: FYI, the latter battery pack (28 standard golf car
batteries) would cost you around $1,400. That's less than one-fourth the
cost of 56 Optimas or Exide Orbitals! And it's also a lot less to lose when
you destroy your first pack in a year, as most of us did when we first
started out in EVs. (Everybody does - it takes at least one "sacrifical"
pack to teach you how to take care of it for long life.)
You could also back down a little to 38% battery mass at 144 volts, which
would open up a whole big world of lower cost parts, particularly used ones.
Although you have to deal with the integration issue when you are buying a
motor here and a controller there, there are folks here who can help you.
Buying used parts from people who are upgrading (perhaps to go faster ;-) is
an excellent way to make a first EV on a budget.
For example, the Curtis 1231C-8601 controller is currently somewhat out of
fashion. However, it's a perfectly serviceable controller in spite of the
scorn that some people here will heap on it, and it should be a lot easier
to find one used than to find a Zilla Z1K (an excellent controller, and now
more in fashion with hobbyists). Hundreds of road Evs have been built with
Curtis controllers over the last 10 years. They're workhorses.
No matter what you decide, we'll help you get there. Go for it!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think you're missing my point. Unless you disconnect the Etek (or
> whatever) from the drive train, it won't survive going over 45 mph in low
> gear. It will overspin.
> It doesn't matter whether the Etek is powering the load or the ICE is, all
> that matters is the RPM.
>
I used Etek/Lynch only as a measure of size and kw range (never seen one of
these with dual shafts), but I was thinking more along the lines of a AC/bldc
to miminize drag, and to allow the high speeds - I'd expect no more than
6000rpm from the ICE, and these motors easily handle this range. Actually, I
haven't seen a dual shaft motor other than a ADC FB-4001 (and *that* one could
handle 6Krpm!), but you're right about not revving those PMs to that speed - it
would have to be an AVT Supermotor, and again, no dual shafts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1-Couldn't you use a DMM as a meter in your car?
Turning it on when you need to?
2-I have a DMM with a rs 232 jack, so I guess you
could connect it to an onboard computer and an LCD
screen, or laptop. (If you an old laptop around with
rs 232 it wouldn't cost you much...except waiting for
the computer to boot up!) But you'd have to rip out
more sections of the dashboard?
3-But using a PC in the car seems overkill in wasting
juice (You could charge the laptop battery outside of
the car), but I haven't seem much in regards to using
LEDs as signal lights, or even headlights. Is there a
reason why we aren't saving our last watt? You know
it's safer to drive with your lights on.
4-I was wondering how do you pass the emissions test
in California when you convert the vehicle? Has anyone
dealt with any weirdo...looking for a tailpipe? I'm in
Alaska and we are using the same CARB regulations up
here, except they don't have a bunch ev-guru's up here
pushing the system.
Thanks in advance.
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--- Begin Message ---
At 12:53 AM 17/04/05 -0700, mike golub wrote:
1-Couldn't you use a DMM as a meter in your car?
Turning it on when you need to?
Of course you could, but *what* parameter are you intending looking at?
Your basic choices are battery volts, motor volts, automotive system (12V)
and with an appropriate sensor, battery or motor amps. Depending on the
meter you could have one with max/min peak hold display as well. But also,
depending on the meter, if it is not good enough quality it will go bezerk
from the controller switching.
2-I have a DMM with a rs 232 jack, so I guess you
could connect it to an onboard computer and an LCD
screen, or laptop. (If you an old laptop around with
rs 232 it wouldn't cost you much...except waiting for
the computer to boot up!) But you'd have to rip out
more sections of the dashboard?
Is your meter isolated on the RS232? if not, your computer would become
'hot' to pack -ve (or whatever you were monitoring). Also logging one
parameter at a time may not be particularly useful. And unless you can
'find' meters secondhand like I have been able to, buying enough meters to
watch all parameters together would likely cost more than an e-meter (link
10) amp-hour counter.
3-But using a PC in the car seems overkill in wasting
juice (You could charge the laptop battery outside of
the car), but I haven't seem much in regards to using
LEDs as signal lights, or even headlights. Is there a
reason why we aren't saving our last watt? You know
it's safer to drive with your lights on.
Leds do not save a huge amount over incandescents once you get up to full
intensity for the light. However, a small cluster of leds can be very easy
to see (highly intense). Day running lights are probably a useful thing to
do with leds - as little as 2 or 3 watts can be quite intense. But, if you
'roll your own' they are NOT department of transport approved, so many of
the led lamp conversions that have been done may make a vehicle not able to
be re-registered if the inspector is picky. I like leds, mostly for
reliability (when not driven too hard - most of the busses here seem to
have led brake and indicator lights with pixels out).
As for led headlights, there is a long way to go yet before they can meet
the criterea required for headlights. [I think it is called luminous flux],
the ability of a light source to illuminate a surface to be able to see
that surface. Leds are good at being seen, less for seeing by. My 3-watt
luxeon led torch is great, but I believe that 20 of them would not make up
to a 60W halogen for illuminating ability. The other headlight criterea is
on low beam a sharp cut-off is required so as to not dazzle oncoming drivers.
4-I was wondering how do you pass the emissions test
in California
Can't help there, wrong hemisphere.
Thanks in advance.
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
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--- Begin Message ---
I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but close tolerance
thermostat circuit that will work off 12V. Need to hold 1% or less at 100
deg F and be able to turn on and off 1 maybe 2 relays. Preferrably without a
microprocessor. I have lots of thermistors & non specialized ICs and the
like in the Junqueyard. Anyone got a junk box circuit to share? Hmm, this
MIGHT be ev related if it would work for a battery heater control. Thanks in
advance for any help.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and All,
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> What are the chances for just using an entire
> >> motorcycle rear end, engine and all?
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
> > By the time you add the weight, extra tire
> drag, a
> > little aero drag and you wouldn't be able to tow a
> > trailer, it's little more eff than a series hybrid
> and
> > a series hybrid is much more simple, easy to
> install,
> > remove, weighs much less and as it runs always at
> it's
> > most eff rpm, very eff.
>
> You misunderstood me. I mean REPLACE your trailing
> arm and rear tire
> with a motorcycle rear end. It's still a 3-wheeled
> vehicle; no trailer.
> Either the electric motor or the ICE can drive the
> chain (or belt, or
> even drive shaft) to run the back wheel.
A unit large enough to handle the weight will
still weigh too much compared to my very lightweight
set up which only weighs about 25 lbs for the trailing
arm suspension, brakes, ect.
The motor/gen unit only will weight about 100lbs
or so is the goal.
Using a MC motor, trans, ect large enough to do
some good and handle the loads weighs probably 400 lbs
making too much weight on the rear wheel thus hurting
handling, stability.
Also if the motor is attached permanently it will
always cut acceleration, range under EV that 95% of
the driving would be and I'd have to do EPA
certification for emmissions. An Expensive process.
Then how much would a new MC set up cost? At least
$4k. This would bump up my selling price from $15k
with the gen option to at least $18k.
MC rims, tires only work with centrifical loads
and not designed to take side loads and WILL break.
Other than these things and those below, it's a
great idea ;-))
>
> > Plus a bike transmission and clutch just won't
> hold
> > up to pushing a 1500+ EV and itself.
>
> There are bikes that weigh this much.
Yes they do but adding 1,000 lbs to my EV is not my
idea of eff. Much less extra drag just by going to a
slide in lightweight gen.
>
> > Then there are cooling problems with it behind the
> EV.
>
> Just requires enough air. Use a liquid-cooled
> engine, and put the
> radiator somewhere out in the breeze.
More weight!!
>
> >> Yes, you can use a shunt golf cart motor as a
> generator.
> >> Since they aren't "proper" generators, the brush
> timing will
> >> be off and you'll probably get too much arcing at
> 72v and
> >> 100 amps. But, it is probably acceptable at 72v
> and 25 amps.
>
> > Can't you adjust the timing to be correct at 100
> > amps, 80vdc?
>
> Yes, you could. It would then be fine at values
> around this voltage and
> current but arcing would get worse at other levels
> (which may not matter
> if all you use it for is a FullOn/FullOff generator.
Yes, that is the plan.
>
> > Know of any other cheap but eff 3ph alt, ect,
> that
> > would work? Looking for something under $500,
> 50lbs
> > new and 3600rpm or less.
>
> As others have mentioned, there are some like the
> Ecycle. You could also
> replace the rotor of an alternator with a PM rotor
> to raise efficiency.
The field windings at these voltages are not the
eff problem the laminations are. eCycle is too pricey
so eventually I'll just build my own disc
motors/generators for 90% eff at a good price. Also
eCycle seems to have a problem bulding them in
quantity so far.
Materials/labor can't be over $300 from my
calculations for my version.
>
> >> How about mounting the ICE in-line with the
> traction
> >> motor, and connecting it with a centrifugal
> clutch?
> >> When the ICE is off, it does nothing. When the
> ICE is
> >> idling, it freewheels until its speed goes above
> (say)
> >> 1000 rpm. Then it can pick up the load.
>
> > Hard to connect to the wheel with the trailing
> arm
> > movement. Can be done but not easy. Plus you lose
> some
> > eff in the belt, ect.
>
> Again, I'm not sure you understand. All I'm saying
> is that the motor and
> ICE are mounted with their shafts lined up
> end-to-end. There is a
> centrifugal clutch between the motor and ICE. There
> is no extra belt.
Not easy to do on mine but could be done on a
clean slate design but don't want a permanent ICE
motor on it.
This is an EV for production with an optional and
sometimes generator.
>
> Your sketch shows the car being over 4 feet wide
> where the motor is.
> That's plenty to have the motor, ICE, and bearings
> for the trailing arm
> for the rear wheel all in line.
By the time it gets back where they would have to
be mounted, it's only about 38" wide.
If I get a good regen drive motor and can find
some good, reasonably priced clutches then I could
make a plug in just ICE motor and use the main drive
motor as the gen.
It would require 2 good clutches so to generate
will stopped, in slow traffic, parked.
Now that would be eff, lighter weight and
removeable.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a feel for how much runout is bad, but I do have a recommendation.
Before you go a lot further, bolt your motor down, and spin it (and the
flywheel) under power. I've heard 12 VDC is adequate to "test" the motor w/o
load, but you may need a bit more to see how it shakes at your target RPM's. If
you have a motor controller, and can vary the volts, all the better.
The reason I am saying this is that my Celica flywheel (or clutch/flywheel) has
a noticeable vibration when I go to about 3500 RPM. It's there in all gears,
and with the clutch disengaged, so I really think it's my flywheel balance.
I'm kicking myself now for not checking the flywheel balance before assembly
(heck, I didn't even measure runout- looked OK to my eyeball, and I got the hub
adapter from a reliable source)
Now, I'm looking at tearing it all apart (it's FWD, and I have to pull the
steering knuckles part way out to get the drive shafts/tranny out).
Wish I had been engaged on this list way a year ago!
Best regards, Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Apr 16, 2005 9:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
As far as clutch engagement is concerned, it shouldn't make any
difference...as long as the motor and tranny shafts are lined up.
Not sure, but it might cause a ballance problem at high RPMs though.
> I'm making my own adapter for my Echo conversion, and I've run into a
> possible snag.
>
> I just finished machining my hub ( I'm using a purchased QD taper bushing
> on
> the motor shaft). A friend of mine has a lathe, and helped me out with
> it,
> but clearly my machining skills need some work.
>
> I mounted the hub on the motor shaft and torqued the locking screws to
> spec
> ( provided by by the bushing manufacturer), and released the brush springs
> so I can spin the hub easily. The flywheel surface runout seem OK: The
> Toyota manual ( this is an Echo) gives a TIR limit of 0.004 inches at the
> outer part of the flywheel friction surface, and I measure 0.003 on mine.
> Fine.
>
> But, the flywheel is visibly ( barely) running out in its own plane. I
> measured TIR = 0.005 inches, at the flywheel centering boss on the hub .
> That is, the center of the flywheel doesn't line up with the center of
> the
> motor shaft. ( Don't ask how I could have made the part this way).
>
> How much in-plane runout of the flywheel is a problem? Maybe this isn't
> critical as long as the motor centerline is aligned with the transmission
> centerline ( which I will do) and, balance the flywheel/clutch assembly
> on
> the motor shaft.
>
> Any ideas on this? If will be a few weeks at least before I have the
> adapter plate finished and can assemble and run the motor/transmission,
> but
> I'd like to solve this problem first ( if it is a problem)
>
>
> Comments, ideas???
>
> By the way, I did try removing and remounting the hub, in different
> rotations relative to the bushing, and the runout is pretty consistent, so
> I'm sure it is the hub itself.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:38 AM 17/04/05 -0700, David Chapman wrote:
I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but close tolerance
thermostat circuit that will work off 12V. Need to hold 1% or less at 100
deg F and be able to turn on and off 1 maybe 2 relays. Preferrably without
a microprocessor. I have lots of thermistors & non specialized ICs and the
like in the Junqueyard. Anyone got a junk box circuit to share? Hmm, this
MIGHT be ev related if it would work for a battery heater control. Thanks
in advance for any help.
Hi David (and all)
Easy, steal a comparator circuit from any good op-amp textbook. Thermistor
goes on one side of a comparator, (if you need it stable, then an
instrumentation op-amp or comparator). Not much feedback in order to keep
down the switching hysteresis. No doubt someone will be able to lay their
hands on something like that.
How accurate do you realy *need* it to be? +/-1deg F stability, with
0.5degF switching hysterisis? depending on the thermal lag demand, that
could be hard. +/- 3deg F (6 degree swing max) should be easy.
Simplest way to determine if it is going to be hard, stick a low-mass
thermocouple into the load, power it up, switch off the heater immediately
it hits desired setpoint. Wait for it to run over and see how far it goes
over. As it falls back, immediately it hits setpoint, switch the heater
back on and see how far under it goes.
If it swings far over and under past the desired tolerance range, invest
the money in an industrial PID temperature controller. Good ones start at
around $200US retail, cheaper or surplus ones for less, but if surplus you
don't get to choose your power supply in that case.
I use a lot of the JUMO brand controllers (made in Germany [the former
western part]) and get good results (shameless plug, since we are also
local dealers), but as a low-cost item, they have great features and
reliability. DC power supply is indent-order here, though. And yes, I
intend having one in my truck (motor brush [thermocouple] alarm).
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey! EVerybody;
Drop Mike a line on EV's I did, he may be looking for new stuff? I'm on his
website, and an avid reader of his books and movies, like Roger and Me, an
older one, I won't spoil the story, take a break from working on your EV and go
to Bussblocker and rent it! Pick up Roger Rabbit, too, on the CA freeway thing
and Pacific Electric. I got a copy just for the recreated trolley scenes in it!
You may not agree with a lot of Michael Moores's stuff, or his " style" but he
is trying to do stuff for our common good. IMHO. I told him about the EV 1
vigil, and stuff like that. Hope it isn't too late. ? Sigh!
Run for Prez! Never mind Pope! Mike. I suggested that to him, be hard to
picture him in a suit, though<G.>! We could do a lot worse.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Wassup?
Friends,
How's it going? Ready for the next step?
Let me know what you've been up to and any ideas you have about what our next
move should be (write me at the addresses below).
Meanwhile, I'll be in conclave this week handing out goodie bags and running
for pope. Wish me well!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.michaelmoore.com
---
You are currently subscribed to Mike's Message as: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe click on the link below:
http://go.netatlantic.com/u?id=37787005X&l=michaelmoore
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
When I install my new Zilla, I wanted to read the heat sink temperature and the
water cooling temperature to this unit.
I had existing Stewart Warner 12 volt coolant gage that has a range of 0 to 250
degrees, and a engine temperature gage that has a range of 0 to 600 degrees.
These are the two units I used to read the data.
On any of these gages, you can install a sender that is used for detecting the
pilot flame of a heating system. This sender generates its own current, to
drive the meters.
I used the 0 to 600 degree sender to read the heat sink temperature. I went to
a heating and plumbing supply house where they sell Honeywell flame senders.
Took my multimeter with me to check out the current reading from each sender.
Took one with the highest current reading.
Before installing the sensor, I test it out on the meter, by connecting the
sensor to the meter, bolt the sensor tube down to a aluminum plate, connect my
multimeter temperature sensor to this aluminum plate, for tuning the Stewart
meter to the multimeter temperature data.
Heated up the aluminum and the when the Stewart meter went right to 250
degrees. The multimeter temperature was about 150 degrees. So, I install a
variable resistance in the Honeywell line to the Stewart gage, and adjusted it
until it match the multimeter gage.
That is all that is to it, just one resistor and a piro-generator flame sensor
Simple and works good.
You could also used this type of sensor on a coolant or oil temperature gage
that has a range from 0 to 300 degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: David Chapman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 3:38 AM
Subject: Need cheep 12V thermostat circuit OT
I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but close tolerance
thermostat circuit that will work off 12V. Need to hold 1% or less at 100
deg F and be able to turn on and off 1 maybe 2 relays. Preferrably without a
microprocessor. I have lots of thermistors & non specialized ICs and the
like in the Junqueyard. Anyone got a junk box circuit to share? Hmm, this
MIGHT be ev related if it would work for a battery heater control. Thanks in
advance for any help.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque<http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
I'tll bounce as his mailbox ifs FULL, I tried the other addresses
too.Guess I'll hafta keep trying, Good Luck!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:08 AM
Subject: Fw: Wassup? Tell him about EV's, Maybe, In our Corner?
Hey! EVerybody;
Drop Mike a line on EV's I did, he may be looking for new stuff? I'm on
his website, and an avid reader of his books and movies, like Roger and Me,
an older one, I won't spoil the story, take a break from working on your EV
and go to Bussblocker and rent it! Pick up Roger Rabbit, too, on the CA
freeway thing and Pacific Electric. I got a copy just for the recreated
trolley scenes in it! You may not agree with a lot of Michael Moores's
stuff, or his " style" but he is trying to do stuff for our common good.
IMHO. I told him about the EV 1 vigil, and stuff like that. Hope it isn't
too late. ? Sigh!
Run for Prez! Never mind Pope! Mike. I suggested that to him, be hard to
picture him in a suit, though<G.>! We could do a lot worse.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 3:34 PM
Subject: Wassup?
Friends,
How's it going? Ready for the next step?
Let me know what you've been up to and any ideas you have about what our
next move should be (write me at the addresses below).
Meanwhile, I'll be in conclave this week handing out goodie bags and running
for pope. Wish me well!
Yours,
Michael Moore
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.michaelmoore.com
---
You are currently subscribed to Mike's Message as: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe click on the link below:
http://go.netatlantic.com/u?id=37787005X&l=michaelmoore
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I don't think you are going to get that kind of
accuracy out of a junkyard circuit. The thermocouples
alone will have a resolution of a couple of degrees
unless they are 'special limit' type. By the time you
add a circuit of some kind (especially a junk yard
circuit), i think the best you can hope for is about a
5 degree window.
RTD's are a little more accurate, i think, but I don't
have a lot of experience working with them.
~fortunat
--- David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need to come up with a cheap and easy to build but
> close tolerance
> thermostat circuit that will work off 12V. Need to
> hold 1% or less at 100
> deg F and be able to turn on and off 1 maybe 2
> relays. Preferrably without a
> microprocessor. I have lots of thermistors & non
> specialized ICs and the
> like in the Junqueyard. Anyone got a junk box
> circuit to share? Hmm, this
> MIGHT be ev related if it would work for a battery
> heater control. Thanks in
> advance for any help.
>
> David Chapman
> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
>
>
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
How much resistance ( at temp and RPM) does the 9" motors have.
If I am building a contactor controller and apply 300 volts or 156
volts, obviously a differnet amount of current will flow initially, rpm
will create back EMF from there Can I just take an ohm meter to the cold
motor and use that resistance for my inrush calculations?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Philip,
I had the same problem years ago on my old setup. It seems as time go by, the
adapter gets more out of alignment. I found that the outer ring of the taper
coupler would crack at the set screws holes. They were only 3/8 inch of
material from the set screw holes to the outer ring.
I could not fit in a larger taper lock coupler with more material space from
the set screws, so I used a solid adapter, with 4 each 3/8 set screws set 90
degrees apart.
All the sets screws were size and set, so all of the set screw heads would
extend out at the same distance, so as to keep in better balance.
The bore of the adapter was bore for a interference fit, meaning some metal
would shave off while press fitting on to the motor shaft. To prevent the
motor shaft from shaving off some metal, a brass welded material was fused to
the inside of the adapter bore and machine to a 0.001 interference fit.
Normally it would be set at 0.005 for a press fit without a interference fit.
Also it is recommended to have the adapter center line to be in with 0.001 in.
center line of a flywheel. After this unit was machine, I install it onto the
flywheel and install a short piece of shaft into the adapter and install the
set screws.
Took this unit to a motor shop, that also does motor and engine balance. Check
the balance by running it out to 10,000 RPM, no other adjustments were require.
If there were a balance problem, material would be removed from the flywheel
to bring it in balance.
As for alignment to a clutch disk, it is best to keep this alignment in with
0.005 inch. If you were further out then that, it still not be too critical
unless you get into some high RPM. What will happen, is that you get a oblong
wear pattern on the flywheel which will cause a transmission pilot bearing to
wear out faster if you have one. As the pilot bearing wears more, than the
transmission pilot shaft gear will shift back and forth on the main shaft
transmission gear, which will cause increase gear noise.
This is what happen with my setup, before I had it modified.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Marino<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Adapter hub runout - how bad is bad??
I'm making my own adapter for my Echo conversion, and I've run into a
possible snag.
I just finished machining my hub ( I'm using a purchased QD taper bushing on
the motor shaft). A friend of mine has a lathe, and helped me out with it,
but clearly my machining skills need some work.
I mounted the hub on the motor shaft and torqued the locking screws to spec
( provided by by the bushing manufacturer), and released the brush springs
so I can spin the hub easily. The flywheel surface runout seem OK: The
Toyota manual ( this is an Echo) gives a TIR limit of 0.004 inches at the
outer part of the flywheel friction surface, and I measure 0.003 on mine.
Fine.
But, the flywheel is visibly ( barely) running out in its own plane. I
measured TIR = 0.005 inches, at the flywheel centering boss on the hub .
That is, the center of the flywheel doesn't line up with the center of the
motor shaft. ( Don't ask how I could have made the part this way).
How much in-plane runout of the flywheel is a problem? Maybe this isn't
critical as long as the motor centerline is aligned with the transmission
centerline ( which I will do) and, balance the flywheel/clutch assembly on
the motor shaft.
Any ideas on this? If will be a few weeks at least before I have the
adapter plate finished and can assemble and run the motor/transmission, but
I'd like to solve this problem first ( if it is a problem)
Comments, ideas???
By the way, I did try removing and remounting the hub, in different
rotations relative to the bushing, and the runout is pretty consistent, so
I'm sure it is the hub itself.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
probable the best way to get this number is by putting a low voltage across
the motor then measure the amps , at 12v the motor will spin right along ,
and use 60 amps ( well maybe 50 , I picked 60 to do the math in my head) so
12/60 = .2 ohms , and that's spinning right along , form a dead stop its
going to be very low , and for calculations could be 0 so just figure your
resistance as the only R to be safe / a 1 ohm resistance will give you
156amp at 156v and need to be able to handle 156x156 = watts
- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: warp 9 resistance
How much resistance ( at temp and RPM) does the 9" motors have.
If I am building a contactor controller and apply 300 volts or 156 volts,
obviously a differnet amount of current will flow initially, rpm will
create back EMF from there Can I just take an ohm meter to the cold motor
and use that resistance for my inrush calculations?
--- End Message ---
