EV Digest 4322
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for help w/ a replacement contactor
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Avcon connector
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mechanical PWM controllers
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) 12,24,48,Volts?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 12,24,48,Volts?
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: An AC style bypass
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 12,24,48,Volts?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Electric Indy car on ebay
by "SouthwestAuctions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 12,24,48,Volts?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Looking for help w/ a replacement contactor
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Looking for help w/ a replacement contactor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Avcon connector
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: batteries and range
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) OT: Listproc commands - Digest vs Ack
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: An AC style bypass
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Is this possible?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) need info from Matt Holthausen
by "dmarks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Curtis! Almost a aha!!
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) concept question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: concept question
by D B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: batteries and range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: concept question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) RE: batteries and range
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Web site.
http://www.cableform.com/mtp/mtp-dcce-a1200.htm
__________
Andre' B.
At 07:34 AM 4/29/2005, you wrote:
Hello Duncan,
If you want the best contactors there is, and don't have to worry about
every replacing it again, or if you do 50 years later, you still can get
the exact replacement to fit the same mountings. My contactors are now
30 years olds and I just order a spare unit with different coil voltages
for some mods.
These contactors are a CableForm Industrial A1200 DC Contactors at 400 amp
continuous rating. They are a open type with silver-cadmium contacts with
magnet blowouts and any other option you want to add to it.
The source is:
Cableform, Inc.
8845 Three Notch Road
Troy, Virginia 22974-9512
Tel: 804-589-8224
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Duncan Orthner<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 4:39 AM
Subject: Looking for help w/ a replacement contactor
Hello all,
I'm repairing an EV that has decided it no longer wants to go
in reverse. I believe it's a sticky contactor and I'd like to replace the
pair of forward/reverse units. The markings are:
White-Rodgers/RBM
coil 36VDC cont.
type 586317111
My local (toronto) EV guy says that these are OEM models and he can't
source them directly.
A source for these or an alternative part would be much appreciated.
Best, Duncan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer writes:
>
> I'm slightly concerned about the connector that came with my van. It
> has the Avcon plug on one end of a cable, and the other end is a
> standard outdoor 16A 230VAC connector (standard for Europe anyway).
> The problem is, if you plug this connector into the mains, the Avcon
> plug is live immediately. No waiting to see what happened with the
> pilot signal, because there's no control box.
My 'opportunity' charge cable is essentially the same. You *MUST*
remember to plug the Avcon end in first and unplug it last. This
ensures that the connectors in the Avcon handle make/break with no
load.
> The live and neutral
> contacts are recessed about 4mm, so you can't "quite" reach it with
> the tip of your finger, but with the slightest bit of moisture on the
> plug you would certainly find out that it's live!
It sounds like your Acvon connector is missing the protective cover.
If you observe the 'connect first, disconnect last' rule, you should
be OK, but I'd recommend getting a replacement.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mark that gives me a good reference point I am gonna gues about
$15 per resistor to make that controller start at $700.
Here is my latest idea
An illustration
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/PWM2.jpg
connection
B+-----------------------------------
| |
_|_ _|_
/_\ / \
| | |
| \___/
|_[]BBBBB |
BBRBB[]-|
BRRRB
B- ----------------------[]RRRRR
Blue and Red halves are both copper and are insulated from each other.
brush from motor is 4 brushes in parallel for amperage and can move from
100% Blue to 100% Red.
diode is connected thru slip ring to freewheeling diode
battery negative is connected thru slip ring to Red side of PWM
Drum is rotated by a scooter motor.
This way when the brush comes off of battery negative it is already
sitting near full contact on the freewheel path.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of 12,24,36,48 Volts, would 12,24,48, Volts do the job?
Using a main contactor to fine tune speeds and to unload all other contacts
prior to switching, the 3 speed approach has a few advantages.
Equal battery loading. Symmetry of design.
Anyone been there?
Is it smooth enough? (many autos use 3 speeds).
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure,
My 59 Henney Kilowatt was a contactor controller design
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
The plans for the controller are on that site somewhere. She had 12 6v
batteries for a 72v system. Her controller was 7 speeds.
18v with starting resistor
18v, no resistor
18v, with field weakening
36v,
36v, with field weakening
72v
72v with field weakening
You could take out the field weakening steps and it works quite well.
There was a bit of a "lurch" between 36v FW and 72v. The force of the
lurch was proportinal to how fast you were speeding up. If you took
your time and gave 36V FW to get up to full speed the jerk was almost
not noticable.
James
On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 10:36, Stu or Jan wrote:
> Instead of 12,24,36,48 Volts, would 12,24,48, Volts do the job?
>
>
>
> Using a main contactor to fine tune speeds and to unload all other contacts
> prior to switching, the 3 speed approach has a few advantages.
>
>
>
> Equal battery loading. Symmetry of design.
>
>
>
> Anyone been there?
>
>
>
> Is it smooth enough? (many autos use 3 speeds).
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>> Or better, since you could never make more slip energy than
>> you use, hook the throttle to the current control on a PFC50
>> regenerating the slip energy back into the batteries, wouldn't
>> it appear as big honking variable resistor if you controlled the
>> current knob like that?
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Yes, the PFC-50 would do that. It also works over a wide frequency
> range and could boost the slip energy back into the battery bank.
> When the slip drops, you could short the rotor winding and get
> that desired 'bypass surge'.
>
> All you need to do is figure out how to generate enough AC current
> to accelerate the car.
Back around 1978, I built an EV rather like this. It had a 120/208vac
aircraft alternator as its motor, and an SCR inverter. The alternator
functioned as a wound-rotor motor. I didn't try to recover slip power
(because its slip rings were too small), but I did over-excite the field
with DC. This caused the motor to have a *leading* power factor. This in
turn makes an SCR inverter naturally commutate off without any
complicated commutation circuits.
This provides the basis for a cheap high-power AC drive. Use a big
wound-rotor motor. Use giant SCRs for a 3-phase 6-step inverter. You'd
need commutation circuits for starting and low-power operation when the
motor's load appears resistive or inductive. But these would be
low-power parts. Once running at a minimum speed, a PFC charger or its
equivalent could appear as a *capacitive* load on the rotor windings --
this would allow very high stator currents and thus very high torque
without huge commutation circuits or losses to get the SCRs to turn off.
At still higher speeds, just excite the rotor with DC and run it as a
synchronous motor for maximum efficiency. When parked, the PFC charger
could of course serve as your battery charger.
Crude, but cheap. Not as efficient as a modern high frequency sinewave
inverter, but probably better than an equivalent series DC motor and PWM
controller.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stu and All,
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Instead of 12,24,36,48 Volts, would 12,24,48, Volts
> do the job?
>
Yes that works with a starting resistor for at
least the first step. Until a motor builds up EMF or
magnetic force, it is a direct short so needs some
form of current limiting until it builds some EMF up.
EVen the 24-48 would work well with a resistor,
selected voltage, then 1/4 to 1/2 field weakening
step for speeds inbetween 24-48 steps.
This way the pedal gives you 3 speeds with the S/P
24/48 being switched like a transmission for 6 speeds.
With using 2 diodes you would only need 4
contactors and a breaker or fuse-safety disconnect .
>
>
> Using a main contactor to fine tune speeds and to
> unload all other contacts
> prior to switching, the 3 speed approach has a few
> advantages.
I like doing all contactors at once to lower
arcing on the contacts but since at 48vdc and most
contactors use 2 contacts inside them not really
nessasary.
But since I went to that I've had no contactor
problems despite overloading my contactors in peak,
cont amps by 50%.
>
>
>
> Equal battery loading. Symmetry of design.
>
That's the way!!!
>
>
> Anyone been there?
>
Yes, many of us.
I like them as they are inexpensive, reliable and
easily, cheaply repaired in minutes.
>
>
> Is it smooth enough? (many autos use 3 speeds).
>
Depends on what motor, vehicle, ect you are going
to use. More powerful the motor, the more speeds you
need. If you have a transmission you will use, less
speeds are needed.
Just what motor, vehicle, weight, trans, ect are
you using?
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I apoplogize for using the list to advertise, but I hope someone out there will
be interested in taking a look at this car. eBay auction will go live about
10:15 a.m. This morning (Friday) Pacific Standard Time. If any of you have any
questions, you are welcomed to direct them to me at my email address or through
the list.
The eBay item # is 4546478530 You can access it after it starts by typing
that number into the search box at ebay.com
Go have a look and tell me what you think of the car and the ad.
Thanks again for the bandwidth,
-Andrew G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgot to mention a PM motor is being used.
What kind of diodes were used back then?
Thanks,
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 11:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 12,24,48,Volts?
Hi Stu and All,
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Instead of 12,24,36,48 Volts, would 12,24,48, Volts
> do the job?
>
Yes that works with a starting resistor for at
least the first step. Until a motor builds up EMF or
magnetic force, it is a direct short so needs some
form of current limiting until it builds some EMF up.
EVen the 24-48 would work well with a resistor,
selected voltage, then 1/4 to 1/2 field weakening
step for speeds inbetween 24-48 steps.
This way the pedal gives you 3 speeds with the S/P
24/48 being switched like a transmission for 6 speeds.
With using 2 diodes you would only need 4
contactors and a breaker or fuse-safety disconnect .
>
>
> Using a main contactor to fine tune speeds and to
> unload all other contacts
> prior to switching, the 3 speed approach has a few
> advantages.
I like doing all contactors at once to lower
arcing on the contacts but since at 48vdc and most
contactors use 2 contacts inside them not really
nessasary.
But since I went to that I've had no contactor
problems despite overloading my contactors in peak,
cont amps by 50%.
>
>
>
> Equal battery loading. Symmetry of design.
>
That's the way!!!
>
>
> Anyone been there?
>
Yes, many of us.
I like them as they are inexpensive, reliable and
easily, cheaply repaired in minutes.
>
>
> Is it smooth enough? (many autos use 3 speeds).
>
Depends on what motor, vehicle, ect you are going
to use. More powerful the motor, the more speeds you
need. If you have a transmission you will use, less
speeds are needed.
Just what motor, vehicle, weight, trans, ect are
you using?
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Duncan, Andre', Roland and All,
Thanks for the sources guys.
--- Andre' Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Web site.
> http://www.cableform.com/mtp/mtp-dcce-a1200.htm
> __________
> Andre' B.
>
> >These contactors are a CableForm Industrial A1200
> DC Contactors at 400 amp
> >continuous rating. They are a open type with
> silver-cadmium contacts with
> >magnet blowouts and any other option you want to
> add to it.
> >
> >The source is:
> >
> >Cableform, Inc.
> >8845 Three Notch Road
> >Troy, Virginia 22974-9512
> >
> >Tel: 804-589-8224
> >
> >Email:
>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >Roland
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Duncan
> Orthner<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Looking for help w/ a replacement
> contactor
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm repairing an EV that has decided
> it no longer wants to go
> > in reverse. I believe it's a sticky contactor
> and I'd like to replace the
> > pair of forward/reverse units. The markings are:
> >
> > White-Rodgers/RBM
> > coil 36VDC cont.
> > type 586317111
> >
> > My local (toronto) EV guy says that these are
> OEM models and he can't
> > source them directly.
> >
> > A source for these or an alternative part would
> be much appreciated.
Much better would be taking it apart and fixing
it!!!
Many times you can clean up the contacts or
silver solder them for a rebuild.
Or just buy the contacts and replace them. Take
them down to the contactor place you went to and they
most likely have the replacement parts if they sell
that brand. Many times other brand contacts will work
or even be an upgrade.
EV Parts or other EV supply stores will have
contactors and parts to rebuild them as most motor
repair shops will.
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
> >
> > Best, Duncan
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Duncan Orthner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm repairing an EV that has decided it no longer wants to go
> in reverse. I believe it's a sticky contactor and I'd like to
> replace the pair of forward/reverse units. The markings are:
>
> White-Rodgers/RBM
> coil 36VDC cont.
> type 586317111
>
> My local (toronto) EV guy says that these are OEM models and
> he can't source them directly.
>
> A source for these or an alternative part would be much appreciated.
The exact part is avialable from EV Parts for US$75.60:
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=622&product_id=9
37>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
look carrefuly it's not the same than PSA EV use though it may work.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Avcon connector
> On 4/29/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > I'l sorry to say if i had a spare one i would keep it reserve !!!
> > new price is more than 500 euros !
>
> If you check the link that Ralph sent, apparently they are on sale for
$69.
> I guess it is surplus and not much use in the US.
>
> http://www.partsonsale.com/evparts.html#anchor1319401
>
> > maybe you can open and fix it ?
>
> I will do that for now. It's not such a hazard now that I know about it
:)
>
> Thanks
> Evan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
26 12v batteries in two strings 19 to 20 8v batteries in one string. 26 6v
batteries in one string. I saw some Valve regulated Trojan's between 66 &
71 pounds. These might be an answer to get more weight in the right range
(800 pounds) but less amp hours. The Trojan HC models don't seem to be
available here but are made in Ireland? There might be a Powersonic type
battery in the right weight and amp range to give the voltage and the amp
hrs. Maybe Hawkers. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 4:21 PM
Subject: batteries and range
Hi folks
I'm converting an 83 Rabbit GTI. I have an ADC 9 inch motor and I will
soon have a 1200 Raptor running about 156 volts.. I need a range of 30
miles or more. What and how many batteries can get me there.
Thanks in advance.
John Martin
JFM Digital Imaging
415-472-4482
www.jfmdigital.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For my *next* Newby question, can anyone confirm that receiving EVlist mail in
digest form ("SET
EV DIGEST") and having posting Acknowledgement turned on ("SET EV MAIL ACK")
are indeed mutually
exclusive - or am I missing something?
I'd like to receive the list in digest mode, but I'd also like to receive an
acknowledgement/copy when I post
to the list. However, when I turn on Acknowledgement, it appears to turn off
Digest mode - is there a way
around this? These options don't seem like they should HAVE to be mutually
exclusive, but that may
indeed be the way the software was written for whatever reason.
Anyone know?
Thanks!
- Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep it would.
I have expierence with wound rotor AC motors.
We used them on the main drive of a Bucket line Gold Dredge in the early
80s. 100 Hp at 700 rpm. It could move a 1000 ton boat fast enough to yank
your feet out from under you.
I don't think a on road EV would be the place for that kind of motor drive.
A Mopar alternator or any car alternator can be run like a wound rotor
motor. Apply the 3 phase AC, then and field current . Now can we find one
that is less than 200 lbs and can make more than 200 Hp? I think I have
one.....
Oh yea ... I think your torque Scales with phase amps. So 10X torque needs
10x full load current. I know if we locked up the digging motor on the
dredge, we could brown out the whole hydro net and that was 645KVA and had a
14 ton flywheel on it. so... a puny 100 Hp motor could suck WAY more than
the supply could keep up with. Very impressive as a 23 year old Punk!
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: An AC style bypass
> Rich,
> Wouldn't you love to try a wound rotor induction motor for EV drag
> racing?
>
> set line-lock
> set rotor resistance to max external resistor in the bank with
> the fan
> set Hz to max
> reduce resistance, and get a great launch
> vary the resistance as rpm's climb maintinig a flat max torque
> profile from 100 to 5000 rpm
>
> Starting a standard induction motor at 100% slip is 5X amps and 1/2 torque
> Starting a wound rotor at 100% slip could be 10x rated torque at 1/2 amps
>
> Maybe a set frequency AC drive and a set of contactors on the resistor
> bank would make an interesting controller.
> Or better, since you could never make more slip energy than you use,
> hook the throttle to the current control on a PFC50 regenerating the
> slip energy back into the batteries, wouldn't it appear as big honking
> variable resistor if you controlled the current knob like that ?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also remember that the areo in the back seat was casuing the BETA PFC20s
in plastic cases to over heat. It was a HOT day and well with air cooled
chargers, and the lack of real good air flow, things got rather hot. I think
the next Charger I buildt for Sheer was a liquid cooled one just because of
this event.
This was before PFC50s and before PFC30s and a the metal boxes with a tight
air tunnel. LOTs has changed since then. A single PFC50B in the current
state of design would probably not have much
trouble at all holding the Honda Genset at maximum output of hours on end.
And a new version of a old twist would be the PFC30/40L. This is a PFC30
with liquid cooling and maybe turned up to 40 line amps. If this was plumbed
into the Siemans inverter cooling circuit, it would not have any cooling
issues. In fact it would be a a damn good match for the Honda since the
actual specs were 12.5 peak Kw and 10Kw continuous rating.
It's been a few years since I did a water cooled charger. There should
be a increasing demand with the large increase in Wet Zillas out there.
We will have to see just what kind of power I can squeak out of the current
design.
The PFC30s are thermal limited on the inductor when you make them Buck
40 amps, and there is just barley any thermal overhead when Bosting to 400
VDC from 230 VAC. Clearly I am getting all I can from the current packaging
limits. I did a run yesterday on a PFC30 that was clocking along at %91.5
apparent efficiency, and I had only about 20 Deg F overhead at full power.
So it can recover from a over heating event in a 70 deg room, but not at 90
Deg. More heatsink, more fan, or Water cooling is the only way to get more
power from the same sized box.
A PFC50 has 3 times the heatsink, about twice the inductor surface area,
and twin 80 mm fans. And more than twice the mass. Clearly this is the unit
for heavy abuse.
Still I bet the 30/40Liquid cooled units will come really close to out
performing the PFC50s, if you have a good amount of cool water.
We get the aluminum today, and start the engineering build up this week. I
hope to have one on line .....in Goldie in about 2 weeks.
Oh yea salesman mode on. I expect the PFC40L to list for about $2500. This
is the same price as the Stock PFC50, but 15 lbs lighter and 1/3 the volume.
I have to hound my APT guys for those new "DQ" diodes....I am going to
throw all my current Efficiency tricks at this one....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Is this possible?
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> >Sheer Pullen did this from Seattle to Woodburn (and back) a few years ago
> >with Evercells and an AC motor.
>
> I was a part of this caravan on the return leg, Sheer actually ran 2
PFC-20s
> off the generator while going down the road with the chargers sitting in
the
> rear seat and while monitoring the Siemens system with a laptop on the
> passenger seat.
>
> Even with both chargers running, he was still not quite making up for the
> power he was using at highway speeds. We stopped a couple of times and let
> the generator run for a while along the way.
>
> IMHO, it was the bad aero on the genset trailer that was really hurting us
> on energy usage at interstate speeds.
> .
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.cloudelectric.com
> http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
>
> Cloud Electric Vehicles
> 19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
> Kent, Washington 98032
>
> phone: 425-251-6380
> fax: 425-251-6381
> Toll Free: 800-648-7716
>
>
>
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to get information re Captain Ralph Holthausen. If you are related
to Ralph or are his son Matt I would appreciate it if you would cantact me at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you for an early reply. David Marks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys,
This project has/had me freaking out.
I may not be there yet but this is what just happened:
I replaced the motor with 3 auto brake bulbs wired in series.
I tried my 0-5k and 5k-0 test and all I saw was 9.8 volts at #2 and #3
terminals of the controller.
I tried applying the KSI before turning on the main breaker and then
afterwards.
No joy.
Well, I had my multimeter on the ohms scale by mistake. When I touched the
test probes from B- and to either #2 or #3 (I forget) the bulbs lit up like
gangbusters.
Obviously the ohms setting was supplying a voltage to the throttle terminals
and that caused the A- to B+ terminals to pass current.
I must have a really old Curtis 1204 that uses a Hall effect throttle.
If so, how do I hook one up?
All manuals that I have seen describe a 5k pot.
What gives?
Other explanations please.
Boyntonstu
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--- Begin Message ---
I had a question regarding concept for motor controller/options and Myles
Twete discussed the Etek motors. This is a follow-up after looking further
into the Etek specs.
Conceptually, if a small vehicle with 4 wheel independent suspension were
modified with an Etek at each wheel and a 192v pack with a zilla 1K
controller, would it have decent speed and range?
Based on the Etek rpm specs, the motors would not have to run at a very high
rpm (between 1000 and 1500) for highway speeds. Since each is about 8 hp
would setting them up in parallel like this equate to 32 hp? That is
actually a pretty good hp rating for a small vehicle.
A design like this would rid the vehicle of all ICE components including
drive system and the weight would be dramatically reduced making room for
the bats in the engine compartment as well as the trunk for a very balanced
weight ratio with a lot of room left over.
Anyone made anything like this?
Jeff "newbie" need-to-start-grinnin Wilson
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I had a question regarding concept for motor controller/options and Myles
Twete discussed the Etek motors. This is a follow-up after looking further
into the Etek specs.
Conceptually, if a small vehicle with 4 wheel independent suspension were
modified with an Etek at each wheel and a 192v pack with a zilla 1K
controller, would it have decent speed and range?
Based on the Etek rpm specs, the motors would not have to run at a very high
rpm (between 1000 and 1500) for highway speeds. Since each is about 8 hp
would setting them up in parallel like this equate to 32 hp? That is
actually a pretty good hp rating for a small vehicle.
A design like this would rid the vehicle of all ICE components including
drive system and the weight would be dramatically reduced making room for
the bats in the engine compartment as well as the trunk for a very balanced
weight ratio with a lot of room left over.
Anyone made anything like this?
Jeff "newbie" need-to-start-grinnin Wilson
Aloha All: I bought two old Suzuki Samurai jeeps (hardtop version)
with a similar idea in mind. I was going to put two Eteks in the same
location as the transfer case, one to power the front and one the rear.
All existing drive shafts could be used. Both would be covered/protected
by a shield from off road impact, but with a built in forced air fan.
One is raised three inchs by springs and another two by larger tires,
all batteries could fit underneath the car and in the engine
compartment. I have 6 new nicads (Huey starting batteries) so I would
use 2 per motor (48 Volt.) I assume you would only use 48 volt per
motor, not a 192 volt pack hooked to all motors??. DB
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--- Begin Message ---
John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm converting an 83 Rabbit GTI. I have an ADC 9 inch motor
> and I will soon have a 1200 Raptor running about 156 volts..
> I need a range of 30 miles or more. What and how many
> batteries can get me there.
As a rough estimate, 30mi at 280Wh/mi is 8400Wh. To keep from
discharging the pack deeper than 80% DOD, the pack therefore needs a
minimum capacity of 10500Wh.
Any battery combination that stores at least 10.5kWh will satisfy your
range requirements. The higher the voltage, the wider your powerband
will be, and the higher you'll be able to rev your motor, so ideally you
probably want a 156V string of the smallest capacity battery that will
satisfy your range requirements.
One possibility is the Concorde GPL-31T or PVX1080T: 69-70lb, 105Ah
C/20, 68Ah C/1, 12V AGM. A 156V string of these would weigh about
900lbs and at 280Wh/mi would satisfy your range requirement (at the C/1
rate) without needing to be discharged deeper than 80%DOD. The
Concordes do not stand up well to routine high-current discharge, so you
would need to turn down your battery current limit to 250-300A to ensure
a longer service life. The DCP will still deliver full motor current,
so you will not lose off-the-line torque.
The Optima group 31 (D31) is a bit lighter at 60lb and will tolerate
high current loads better, but has less rated capacity and so would be
discharged more deeply, resulting in a shorter life.
A 156V string of buddy-paired Optima D34s or Exide Obitals pushes you up
to the 1100lb ballpark for the pack and should deliver about the same
capacity as the single string of Concordes. You would have no concern
at all with using the full 1200A battery current your controller is
capable of. This is an expensive option due to the number of batteries,
the extra connectors and wiring, the battery management, and you would
still be cycling the batteries relatively deeply (80%DOD), so pack
replacement might occur more often.
If you prefer to use flooded batteries (cheaper, longer life, no battery
management/charging issues), then you are looking at either a lower
voltage pack or a significantly heavier one. Either way, with floodeds
range will not be an issue but performance of the car may be.
If you want to keep the pack weight to about 1000lbs, you are limited to
a 108V pack of US1800 or Trojan T605 6V floodeds at about 56-58lbs each.
This yields a pack of about 1008-1044lbs with a C/1 capacity of about
100Ah, or 10.8kWh. If you wanted to stick with the more ubiquitous
T105/US2200 size battery at aboutu 65lbs each, weight and capacity both
increase somewhat. With floodeds you will still want to turn down the
battery current limit to perhaps 500A to help ensure decent battery
life.
One last possibility is gel batteries such as the DEKA 8G31 (72lb,
64.5Ah C/1) or 8G4D (130lb, 122Ah C/1), both of which are 12V models.
The 8G31 is likely a bit too small to satisfy your range requirement
unless your car achieves better than 280Wh/mi, and is near enough to the
Optima D31 that you might opt for the Optima in order to get the high
current capability.
The 8G4D is an interesting option as it offers about the weight and
capacity of a pair of US2200/T105 floodeds. 9 of them would yield a
108V pack at 1170lbs.
As with the Concorde AGMs, you would need to turn down the controller
current limit to abour 250A to help ensure decent life from the DEKA
gels.
Decisions, decisions... ;^>
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger and Lawrence
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm converting an 83 Rabbit GTI. I have an ADC 9 inch motor
and I will soon have a 1200 Raptor running about 156 volts..
I need a range of 30 miles or more. What and how many
batteries can get me there.
As a rough estimate, 30mi at 280Wh/mi is 8400Wh. To keep from
discharging the pack deeper than 80% DOD, the pack therefore needs a
minimum capacity of 10500Wh.
Any battery combination that stores at least 10.5kWh will satisfy your
range requirements. The higher the voltage, the wider your powerband
will be, and the higher you'll be able to rev your motor, so ideally
you
probably want a 156V string of the smallest capacity battery that will
satisfy your range requirements.
One possibility is the Concorde GPL-31T or PVX1080T: 69-70lb, 105Ah
C/20, 68Ah C/1, 12V AGM. A 156V string of these would weigh about
900lbs and at 280Wh/mi would satisfy your range requirement (at the C/1
rate) without needing to be discharged deeper than 80%DOD. The
Concordes do not stand up well to routine high-current discharge, so
you
would need to turn down your battery current limit to 250-300A to
ensure
a longer service life. The DCP will still deliver full motor current,
so you will not lose off-the-line torque.
The Optima group 31 (D31) is a bit lighter at 60lb and will tolerate
high current loads better, but has less rated capacity and so would be
discharged more deeply, resulting in a shorter life.
A 156V string of buddy-paired Optima D34s or Exide Obitals pushes you
up
to the 1100lb ballpark for the pack and should deliver about the same
capacity as the single string of Concordes. You would have no concern
at all with using the full 1200A battery current your controller is
capable of. This is an expensive option due to the number of
batteries,
the extra connectors and wiring, the battery management, and you would
still be cycling the batteries relatively deeply (80%DOD), so pack
replacement might occur more often.
If you prefer to use flooded batteries (cheaper, longer life, no
battery
management/charging issues), then you are looking at either a lower
voltage pack or a significantly heavier one. Either way, with floodeds
range will not be an issue but performance of the car may be.
If you want to keep the pack weight to about 1000lbs, you are limited
to
a 108V pack of US1800 or Trojan T605 6V floodeds at about 56-58lbs
each.
This yields a pack of about 1008-1044lbs with a C/1 capacity of about
100Ah, or 10.8kWh. If you wanted to stick with the more ubiquitous
T105/US2200 size battery at aboutu 65lbs each, weight and capacity both
increase somewhat. With floodeds you will still want to turn down the
battery current limit to perhaps 500A to help ensure decent battery
life.
One last possibility is gel batteries such as the DEKA 8G31 (72lb,
64.5Ah C/1) or 8G4D (130lb, 122Ah C/1), both of which are 12V models.
The 8G31 is likely a bit too small to satisfy your range requirement
unless your car achieves better than 280Wh/mi, and is near enough to
the
Optima D31 that you might opt for the Optima in order to get the high
current capability.
The 8G4D is an interesting option as it offers about the weight and
capacity of a pair of US2200/T105 floodeds. 9 of them would yield a
108V pack at 1170lbs.
As with the Concorde AGMs, you would need to turn down the controller
current limit to abour 250A to help ensure decent life from the DEKA
gels.
Decisions, decisions... ;^>
Roger.
JFM Digital Imaging
415-472-4482
www.jfmdigital.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I was figuring on potentially splitting the pack into 2 or 4 parallel
strings. I should have probably said 16 12v bats... was thinking out
loud... Anyway, I like your idea. The Samurai transfer case is perfect for
that. The size of these motors should fit right in place. Do you know if
the eteks will be strong enough to give you the necessary oomph to pull some
of those hills in Hawaii?
D B wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I had a question regarding concept for motor controller/options and Myles
>Twete discussed the Etek motors. This is a follow-up after looking further
>into the Etek specs.
>
>Conceptually, if a small vehicle with 4 wheel independent suspension were
>modified with an Etek at each wheel and a 192v pack with a zilla 1K
>controller, would it have decent speed and range?
>
>Based on the Etek rpm specs, the motors would not have to run at a very
high
>rpm (between 1000 and 1500) for highway speeds. Since each is about 8 hp
>would setting them up in parallel like this equate to 32 hp? That is
>actually a pretty good hp rating for a small vehicle.
>
>A design like this would rid the vehicle of all ICE components including
>drive system and the weight would be dramatically reduced making room for
>the bats in the engine compartment as well as the trunk for a very balanced
>weight ratio with a lot of room left over.
>
>Anyone made anything like this?
>
>Jeff "newbie" need-to-start-grinnin Wilson
>
>
>
Aloha All: I bought two old Suzuki Samurai jeeps (hardtop version)
with a similar idea in mind. I was going to put two Eteks in the same
location as the transfer case, one to power the front and one the rear.
All existing drive shafts could be used. Both would be covered/protected
by a shield from off road impact, but with a built in forced air fan.
One is raised three inchs by springs and another two by larger tires,
all batteries could fit underneath the car and in the engine
compartment. I have 6 new nicads (Huey starting batteries) so I would
use 2 per motor (48 Volt.) I assume you would only use 48 volt per
motor, not a 192 volt pack hooked to all motors??. DB
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My civic uses 18 T875 for 144 Volts and consistantly runs 43 miles twice
per day with a recharge at work (70-80% discharge). If I drive the
civic without concern for range I can easily get the 30 miles at less
than 80% discharge. I will be reporting to the list my experience with
my three packs; US8VGC, US8VGC-HC, and T87,5 sometime within the next
month.
Lynn Adams
14700 miles on the T875's and counting.
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Martin
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Roger and Lawrence
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 11:31 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
> John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I'm converting an 83 Rabbit GTI. I have an ADC 9 inch motor and I
>> will soon have a 1200 Raptor running about 156 volts.. I need a range
>> of 30 miles or more. What and how many batteries can get me there.
>
> As a rough estimate, 30mi at 280Wh/mi is 8400Wh. To keep from
> discharging the pack deeper than 80% DOD, the pack therefore needs a
> minimum capacity of 10500Wh.
>
> Any battery combination that stores at least 10.5kWh will satisfy your
> range requirements. The higher the voltage, the wider your powerband
> will be, and the higher you'll be able to rev your motor, so ideally
> you probably want a 156V string of the smallest capacity battery that
> will satisfy your range requirements.
>
> One possibility is the Concorde GPL-31T or PVX1080T: 69-70lb, 105Ah
> C/20, 68Ah C/1, 12V AGM. A 156V string of these would weigh about
> 900lbs and at 280Wh/mi would satisfy your range requirement (at the
> C/1
> rate) without needing to be discharged deeper than 80%DOD. The
> Concordes do not stand up well to routine high-current discharge, so
> you
> would need to turn down your battery current limit to 250-300A to
> ensure
> a longer service life. The DCP will still deliver full motor current,
> so you will not lose off-the-line torque.
>
> The Optima group 31 (D31) is a bit lighter at 60lb and will tolerate
> high current loads better, but has less rated capacity and so would be
> discharged more deeply, resulting in a shorter life.
>
> A 156V string of buddy-paired Optima D34s or Exide Obitals pushes you
> up
> to the 1100lb ballpark for the pack and should deliver about the same
> capacity as the single string of Concordes. You would have no concern
> at all with using the full 1200A battery current your controller is
> capable of. This is an expensive option due to the number of
> batteries,
> the extra connectors and wiring, the battery management, and you would
> still be cycling the batteries relatively deeply (80%DOD), so pack
> replacement might occur more often.
>
> If you prefer to use flooded batteries (cheaper, longer life, no
> battery
> management/charging issues), then you are looking at either a lower
> voltage pack or a significantly heavier one. Either way, with
floodeds
> range will not be an issue but performance of the car may be.
>
> If you want to keep the pack weight to about 1000lbs, you are limited
> to
> a 108V pack of US1800 or Trojan T605 6V floodeds at about 56-58lbs
> each.
> This yields a pack of about 1008-1044lbs with a C/1 capacity of about
> 100Ah, or 10.8kWh. If you wanted to stick with the more ubiquitous
> T105/US2200 size battery at aboutu 65lbs each, weight and capacity
both
> increase somewhat. With floodeds you will still want to turn down the
> battery current limit to perhaps 500A to help ensure decent battery
> life.
>
> One last possibility is gel batteries such as the DEKA 8G31 (72lb,
> 64.5Ah C/1) or 8G4D (130lb, 122Ah C/1), both of which are 12V models.
> The 8G31 is likely a bit too small to satisfy your range requirement
> unless your car achieves better than 280Wh/mi, and is near enough to
> the Optima D31 that you might opt for the Optima in order to get the
> high current capability.
>
> The 8G4D is an interesting option as it offers about the weight and
> capacity of a pair of US2200/T105 floodeds. 9 of them would yield a
> 108V pack at 1170lbs.
>
> As with the Concorde AGMs, you would need to turn down the controller
> current limit to abour 250A to help ensure decent life from the DEKA
> gels.
>
> Decisions, decisions... ;^>
>
> Roger.
>
>
JFM Digital Imaging
415-472-4482
www.jfmdigital.com
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