EV Digest 4325
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Sim Results for 911 Conversion
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Got my taperlock hub off!
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: batteries and range
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sim Results for 911 Conversion
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 4 prong connector
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Brake Lines
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electric heater core questions
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Brake Lines
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: concept question
by "Jeff and Diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) registering electric cars
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: concept question
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Lacey Alternative Fuel Fair and Electrathon Grand Prix Lacey, WA 5/7/05
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Finding the right springs (was: probably need new
shocks/springs...)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: batteries and range
by John Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fluke 77 Heaven
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 4 prong connector
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 4 prong connector
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 4 prong connector
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: An AC style "bypass"?
by "Ben Haines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: An AC style "bypass"?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I know, I should be turning wrenches instead of playing on the
computer. A friend wanted some help seeing what would be optimal
gearing for his Camaro to go 200 mph on the Salt Flats, so once I was
done with the sim for him I dropped in some parameters for my
conversion-in-progress.
Planned batteries: 28 Orbitals.
Max amps: 800 Amps (about the most I can draw for the 75 to 90
seconds a land speed run will take). I hope everything is up to that
draw.
I accounted for voltage sag, and efficiency sag at low and high rpm.
Anyway, I got 144 mph for the current gearing, and 151 mph with
taller tires or taller gearing. I was conservative in that the sim
weight was about 7% above what I think it will be, and aero was about
10% worse than I think it will be. 0-60 was about 5.7 seconds, and
the 1/4 mile in about 14.2 seconds @ 99 mph. Both numbers would
improve with more amps and drag radials. The numbers might improve by
starting in 2nd gear and saving the time of a shift. So I'll be
delighted if I actually meet these numbers, and ecstatic if I beat
them. I need to finish building the analog computer to check the
numbers (building the conversion).
So enough computer play, time to get that taperlock back on!
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also had a hard time removing the taperlock hub (Electro Automotive,
for aircooled VW) from my 8inch ADC motor while trying to get the
runout within spec.
After I gave up on the "tap on the bolts with a hammer" technique, I
thought about it for a while and then backed the bolts out so they
stuck out about a quarter of an inch. Then I pretended to put the
flywheel back on. Tightening the gland nut into the the taperlock hub
squeezed the flywheel back on the heads of the bolts, which pushed the
taper bushing out of the hub. Worked great.
Oh yeah, to keep the motor shaft from turning, I stuck a big
screwdriver into the fan blades. I don't know how good an idea this
is. I wouldn't recommend doing this if you're bashing on the motor
shaft or using a lot of torque - you might break a fan blade.
On Apr 23, 2005, at 10:17 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
When I put my taperlock hub on, and it was off about 2 thousandths.
My fault, I should have used the dial indicator as I put it on, not
after I was done tightening. I wanted to take it off and try again to
do better (I'm presuming you can differentially tighten bolts to
adjust the fit a bit on a taperlock).
OK, loosen bolts, strike with hammer, hmmm, still stuck!
Tap with hammer a bunch. Still stuck!
Get a gear puller. It can't get a grip. Still stuck!
Get a slide hammer. Destroy all its interior jaws. Still stuck!
Rebolt gear puller to a different config. Can't tighten as motor
shaft spins. Still stuck!
Padded vice grips on the motor shaft can't grip tight enough to keep
everything from spinning as I tighten the gear puller. Still stuck!
Impact wrench on gear puller (the short impacts are resisted by
inertia, so the motor shaft doesn't spin). Taperlock hub pops off!
Yay!
This gives me confidence my taperlock is going to hold on tight!
I'm going to have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced as a unit,
spin everything up to check for vibration, and use the trick of
adding and moving washers to minimize any residual vibration.
So get the taperlock on straight, make some critical measurements,
make the adapter plates and spacer, make a motor mount, bolt it all
together, and I'm ready to slowly creep about on a 12 volt battery!
That'll be a day to celebrate!
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of batteries. I checked
Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a little shorter distance by
8%. With low rolling resistance tires it just might do it. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Thanks Roger
I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156 volts.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single 156V string of Optima D31s
looks like it might just barely do. Someone who has actually run a set
would have to confirm what their real-world capacity is though. It
looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah you'll get 25mi at 80%DOD.
Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned it because the up-front
cost is prohibitive for most of us. The ThunderSky TS-LP9393A cells
that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good match: 200Ah (160Ah
real-world), 160A max continuous discharge, 600A peak discharge rate.
You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which works out to about $21.5k
and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't already put you off, the
advantages of this option include a range of about 70mi to 80%DOD and a
battery pack that could be sunk into the floor of the trunk (3 rows of
11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is about 31" x 29" x 12"
tall), or possibly even under the rear seat.
The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another LiIon option. This is a 12V
100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery management system. A
156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs. You'd have to limit your max
battery current to about 200A which means a battery HP limit of about
42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of the ThunderSky pack.
If the Optima D31s will meet your range requirement, then a single
string of them might be the best option as you will be able to take full
advantage of your 1200A controller.
If you don't feel you really need all that power every day, the
Concordes are probably the better option as they have more capacity and
so will give longer cycle life due to shallower DOD.
The lowest cost option (both initially and over time) is an 1100-1200lb
pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries. 18 8V modules gets you to
a respectable 144V, and provided you set your battery current limit to
about 300A they should yield decent life. 18 6V modules is 108V, which
is considered a bit low by today's standards, but could be perfectly
acceptable depending on your needs.
Of course, anything you can do to reduce your EV's energy consuption
below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce the DOD and increase the
feasibility of the AGM options.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What controller and motor are you using?
What is your simulated coefficient drag, simulated frontal
area, and simulated weight? Transmission efficiency? Tire
size?
I'd love to compare with simulations of my in-progress
project. :)
I have played with the numbers for varying possibilities,
but with a .32 Cd, 14.9 square foot frontal area, WarP 9'',
Zilla 1k, Nokian NRT2 tires size 185/70R14 with .0085
coefficient rolling resistance, 25 Optima D750 yellowtops,
7.5 mph outside wind speed, 2,700 pound curb weight, 83%
transmission/drive axel combined efficiency, 192 max motor
volts, 1000 max motor amps, and optimum shift points
selected with a .3 second duration of shift assuming I start
in 2nd gear I get the following results:
0-60: 5.9 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.8 seconds @ 92 mph
Top Speed: 131 mph (limited before max RPM is reached in 4th
gear)
Range @ 60 mph in 2nd gear to 100% DoD: 87 miles
.32 is apparantly what this car's coefficient of drag is
stock. But I intend to place on it a LeMans style bonnet,
cover the top third of rear wheel wells, install a full
underbelly, cover the grille from the inside, remove chrome
stips and cover the resulting gaps with bondo, change
driver's side mirror to something more aero(no passenger
side mirror), remove the exterior vents, shave down the rain
gutters, cover all seams, shave down the door handles, shave
down the handle of the rear hatch, remove chrome strips from
rear hatch, remove chrome pieces from rear of the car,
change the front bumper and rear bumperettes to something
smaller and smoother, smooth LeMans style wheels, and lower
the car an inch closer to the ground.
Cd may end up getting cut down to .25 or so, and frontal
area would lose about .2 square feet.
Also, is to install the fiberglass LeMans bonnet as
mentioned, fiberglass door skins, fiberglass rockers,
fiberglass hatch, lexan windows and hatch window, a lighter
weight windshild that can still meet street legal
requirements, the smaller bumpers as mentioned, all of
which should shave off about 250 pounds, bringing the weight
to a scant 2,450 pounds, and having almost half its weight
in batteries. Add Redline MTL to tranny and assume
efficiency jumps to 85%.
Under those new parameters:
0-60: 5.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.6 seconds @ 97 mph
Top Speed: 140 mph (still limited before max RPM is reached
in 4th gear)
Range @ 60 mph in 2nd gear to 100% DoD: 117 miles
I could compare with your parameters and figures to see if
anything is wrong with my numbers. They seem very
optimistic. My engine weight is 402 pounds, I can save 40
pounds by changing to Miata seats, 15 pounds of carpets to
be removed, 25 pounds of sound deadener, 35 pound spare
tire, 20 pound gas tank, 70 pounds of exhaust and other ICE
related components. Base dry weight is 1,793 pounds. This
means a glider weight of about 1,170-1,180 pounds. *Very*
light for a glider.
1,125 pound battery pack, 160 pound motor, 16 pound
controller, 16 pound charger, 100 pounds of miscallaneous
parts, and I weigh about 130. The LeMans bonnet will cut
about 40 pounds and lighter bumpers will cut about 30
pounds.
Thus without additional fiberglass components, including my
weight, car will come in at about 2,650 pounds.
Add the rest of the fiberglass components, and weight can go
down to 2,450.
A Li Ion upgrade to replacing the Optimas with 450 pounds of
Lithium Ions after this stage and adding a Zilla 2k would
bring the weight to what the car was when it was stock, and
0-60 would drop to the mid 4s and 1/4 mile into the upper
13s, while going 200 miles per charge at highway speeds.
Replace the 9'' with twin 8''s, and weight increases about
90 pounds from stock and 1/4 mile drops to the 12s, and top
speed rockets well over 160, 1/4 mile time under the
assumption that the car will be able to launch at a max of
7 Gs with those tires and get the needed traction. This
thing would be a beast, under either this scenario or the
more tame ones above.
I'm interested in your simulation. I'm probably not going to
be attempting any land speed runs with my car in the near
future, nor do I honestly expect to go more than 130 mph,
nor have a range more than 40 miles under the 2,650 pound
setup with 300V single string of Optima YTs, so maybe I have
some things wrong in this simulation.
The figures I'm using for simulation come from both the
Mayfield page section on automotive technical analysis, and
from Bob Brandt's book.
http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/hpvsspd.htm
Whatever the case may be, when I get my EV on the road, I'm
definately going to play with it and see how fast and how
far it will go...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a picture of the connector.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00024.JPG
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00027.JPG If anyone knows where to find
this recessed male I'd sure like to know. I'd settle for 50 amp also or 30
amp as long as the form factor is the same. 4 prong twist or if there is a
recessed male 4 prong non twist that would work. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Freund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: 4 prong connector
Hi Lawrence:
Could you take a digital photo of this and post it
on the group in the files area? That way we could
look at it, and I can come up with the official
NEMA designated reference number for a replacement.
I believe the safety "thingie" is a custom add-on.
I had one like that on my conversion too. When it
died, the cause was the switch had worn out inside.
I stopped using it, and left it for the next guy to
deal with. That man, not being even slightly
technical with challanges in the basic arithmetic
department as well - hasn't done anything. Fine.
I have all necesary look up charts and a good head on
photo, with a US quarter dollar nearby for size
reference would do the trick. Let' see what it is!
Ron
Los Gatos,
EV+PV=success!
--
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe somebody around here knows...
I'm working on fixing a Sparrow that has melted brake lines. These were
the metal-braid covered flex lines.
Where do I go to get new ones - probably need to be custom made as well?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lawrence
I'm hoping that with less weight, wheel alignment and low rolling
resistance tires, I can make it.
John
On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of batteries. I checked
Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a little shorter distance
by 8%. With low rolling resistance tires it just might do it.
LR..........
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Thanks Roger
I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156 volts.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to
go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single 156V string of Optima D31s
looks like it might just barely do. Someone who has actually run a
set
would have to confirm what their real-world capacity is though. It
looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah you'll get 25mi at
80%DOD.
Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned it because the up-front
cost is prohibitive for most of us. The ThunderSky TS-LP9393A cells
that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good match: 200Ah (160Ah
real-world), 160A max continuous discharge, 600A peak discharge rate.
You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which works out to about
$21.5k
and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't already put you off, the
advantages of this option include a range of about 70mi to 80%DOD
and a
battery pack that could be sunk into the floor of the trunk (3 rows
of
11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is about 31" x 29" x 12"
tall), or possibly even under the rear seat.
The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another LiIon option. This is a
12V
100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery management system. A
156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs. You'd have to limit your
max
battery current to about 200A which means a battery HP limit of about
42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of the ThunderSky pack.
If the Optima D31s will meet your range requirement, then a single
string of them might be the best option as you will be able to take
full
advantage of your 1200A controller.
If you don't feel you really need all that power every day, the
Concordes are probably the better option as they have more capacity
and
so will give longer cycle life due to shallower DOD.
The lowest cost option (both initially and over time) is an
1100-1200lb
pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries. 18 8V modules gets you
to
a respectable 144V, and provided you set your battery current limit
to
about 300A they should yield decent life. 18 6V modules is 108V,
which
is considered a bit low by today's standards, but could be perfectly
acceptable depending on your needs.
Of course, anything you can do to reduce your EV's energy consuption
below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce the DOD and increase
the
feasibility of the AGM options.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:50 AM 30/04/05 -0700, John O'Connor wrote:
I am planning on replacing the stock heater core with an electric
resistive heater core in my pick-up conversion project and I have a few
questions.
I would like to keep the stock heater core for use as a radiator in a
Zilla cooling system. What materials have others used to make a "case" for
the heater element?
Part 1) heater replacement: I made a frame of bakelite sheet that mimicked
the shape of the water-radiator element to mount the ceramic heater
elements in the original heater location. If you are lucky your ceramic
heater will come with an internal sub-frame that would allow itself to be
re-shaped to do the job. All I needed was to bring out the heater wires in
a slightly different place to the water hoses, due to the physical layout.
Woodworking tools plus an angle grinder and a tap (to thread the corner
joins for the screws that held it together) were all that was required to
do that.
Part 2) Zilla cooler: The original core I reworked a little, to fit some
smaller tubes onto and bring them into a direction that I wanted, and
support them more than the original. Since I have made a custom
battery/electricals-box that goes on the chassis where the tray was (and
will be under a new flat-tray) I had a fair bit of freedom to do what I
liked. I chose (managed to get free) a heater blower out of a Honda as my
motor blower. It was from an airconditioned Honda with lots of fancy bits,
so it should have good capacity. This is mounted in one corner of the box,
with short pipes sticking out to put the motor hoses onto.
The Zilla cooling radiator I placed in the intake airstream of the motor
blower, in a sheetmetal frame, with clearances for foam as the original
installation had.
Also, a while back someone posted a message about cutting a hole in the
firewall <snip>
Avoid it if you can, It'd be a messy way to do it. There is all sorts of
stuff shoved up across the inside of a firewall you'd have to avoid. Go to
a vehicle dismantlers and have a close look at a vehicle the same as yours,
and see if there is any point of going through the firewall - you may still
not be able to get at the core anyway (mine had an air duct up in front of
the heater chamber, but I had the dash out so that wasn't a problem).
Hope this helps
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:57 AM 30/04/05 -0700, you wrote:
I'm working on fixing a Sparrow that has melted brake lines. These were
the metal-braid covered flex lines.
Where do I go to get new ones - probably need to be custom made as well?
Should be no problem, any good brake specialist near you should be able to
do/get them. We had a special 1 meter flexible line made for a trailer, had
it in two days (interstate). But that was here in Australia.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, so much for that idea....
Back to the ADC or Warp motors.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 1:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: concept question
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Thanks Lee.
>
> Would there be another motor that could handle this function?
I'm not aware of any true wheel motors that are available for
on-the-road EVs. The few that exists are either very expensive
"unobtainium" or handmade prototypes.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a list of states that have special car
registration for ev?
thanks!
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff and Diane wrote:
> Back to the ADC or Warp motors.
Maybe I missed it, but what kind of vehicle are you going to be converting?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lacey Grand Prix Electric Car Races & Alternative Fuel Fair
Saturday, May 7, 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.
Huntamer Park in Woodland Square
http://www.ci.lacey.wa.us/events/events_main_page.html
For Information: Lacey Parks and Recreation, (360) 491-0857
It�s an all-electric car rally! High school teams and hobbyists race their
custom made electric cars in an effort to drive the most times around the
course in one hour. The Alternative Fuel Fair also features a variety of
displays and vehicles. Electric bikes, Segways, scooters, motorcycles,
hybrid cars, and cars powered by natural gas, electricity, and bio-diesel
will be displayed. Take a look at the future now!
EVent map-
http://www.ci.lacey.wa.us/events/fuel_fair/course_layout.pdf
Driving directions-
http://www.ci.lacey.wa.us/events/fuel_fair/directions_map.pdf
.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's pretty common to want to swap coil springs to boost up the ride
height of your conversion. If you can't get a tip on the model car that has
slightly beefier springs, you will need to go to the junk yard and figure
it out for yourself. This is worth the effort because custom springs cost
about $150 a set and junkyard springs can be had for less than $50 a set.
First, measure the compressed height of the springs as they are installed
on the car, bearing the full weight of the car. Next, you must remove the
springs from your car to measure the free height. Take them out of the
struts (with the proper tools so you don't end up in the hospital.)
Carefully measure the free height, outside diameter, and the coil wire
thickness. Take a front and rear spring with you when you go to the junkyard.
You need to find a spring with the same outside diameter, but with either
the same size coil wire and a slightly taller free height _OR_ the same
free height and a slightly larger coil wire _OR_ with fewer coils and the
same wire diameter and free height.
If the coil wire is the same diameter, then the difference in free height
will give you a rough idea of the difference in ride height. A two inch
taller spring (with the same coil wire and about the same number of coils)
will raise your car about two inches.
If you choose a spring with thicker coil wire, it should not be much
thicker. The "spring rate" is roughly proportional to the diameter of the
wire. If you want the compressed height to go up by 10%, then the coil wire
should be about 10% bigger (with the same free height and the same number
of coils.)
If you reduce the number of coils by 10% then the compressed height will
go up by about 10% (if the coil wire diameter and the free height stay the
same.)
This isn't rocket science. :^)
Again, get the right tools to compress and then remove the springs. Car
springs store a bunch of energy when compressed and will take your head
right off if given half a chance. They will punch right through the fender
if the compression tool slips off.
When you have the springs out, replace the shocks and struts. (Don't get
cheezy ones.) Consider putting in beefier sway bars as well.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey folks
one more battery question
How does the Exide Orbital 34s compare to the Optima D31 for range?
John
On Apr 30, 2005, at 4:32 PM, John Martin wrote:
Thanks Lawrence
I'm hoping that with less weight, wheel alignment and low rolling
resistance tires, I can make it.
John
On Apr 30, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
That at 59 pounds per battery is 767 pounds of batteries. I checked
Mapquest and it shows around 23 miles. Even a little shorter
distance by 8%. With low rolling resistance tires it just might do
it. LR..........
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: batteries and range
Thanks Roger
I'm going to go for the Optima D31s at 156 volts.
John
On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
John Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The range is more like 25 miles. I mentioned 30 miles so as not to
go
below 80%. If I can safely get 25 miles that would be perfect.
OK, 25mi @ 280Wh/mi is 7000Wh, so a single 156V string of Optima
D31s
looks like it might just barely do. Someone who has actually run a
set
would have to confirm what their real-world capacity is though. It
looks like if they can deliver at least 56Ah you'll get 25mi at
80%DOD.
Another option is LiIon. I hadn't mentioned it because the up-front
cost is prohibitive for most of us. The ThunderSky TS-LP9393A cells
that Victor (MetricMind) sells might be a good match: 200Ah (160Ah
real-world), 160A max continuous discharge, 600A peak discharge
rate.
You'd need 43 of them for a 156V system, which works out to about
$21.5k
and 520lbs. If the sticker shock hasn't already put you off, the
advantages of this option include a range of about 70mi to 80%DOD
and a
battery pack that could be sunk into the floor of the trunk (3 rows
of
11 cells and one of 10 yields a pack that is about 31" x 29" x 12"
tall), or possibly even under the rear seat.
The Valence Saphion U24-12FN100 is another LiIon option. This is a
12V
100Ah (C/5) battery which includes the battery management system. A
156V (13 module) pack weighs about 382lbs. You'd have to limit
your max
battery current to about 200A which means a battery HP limit of
about
42HP. I expect cost to be similar to that of the ThunderSky pack.
If the Optima D31s will meet your range requirement, then a single
string of them might be the best option as you will be able to take
full
advantage of your 1200A controller.
If you don't feel you really need all that power every day, the
Concordes are probably the better option as they have more capacity
and
so will give longer cycle life due to shallower DOD.
The lowest cost option (both initially and over time) is an
1100-1200lb
pack of flooded 6V or 8V golf car batteries. 18 8V modules gets
you to
a respectable 144V, and provided you set your battery current limit
to
about 300A they should yield decent life. 18 6V modules is 108V,
which
is considered a bit low by today's standards, but could be perfectly
acceptable depending on your needs.
Of course, anything you can do to reduce your EV's energy consuption
below the 280Wh/mi I've estimated will reduce the DOD and increase
the
feasibility of the AGM options.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is a good, though limited meter - a 77 was the first Fluke I ever bought!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:50 PM
Subject: Fluke 77 Heaven
> I just came into possession of a used (and free!) Fluke 77 Series II
> multimeter. Is this a good piece of equipment? Can it be calibrated?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could used a Daniel Woodhead 4 wire 30 amp twist lock female and male connector
that is design for inline connections of large cables of 1 inch diameter or so.
These connectors have a large waterproof covering that overlap each other.
I pick up everything from a electrical supply house, that normally supplies
industrial items.
I mounted the male end of the 30 amp twist lock in a large cast aluminum deep
box that has a flange which is made by Crouse Hines from the electrical
suppler. All I had to do was to drill a 1 inch hole in the back of the box,
and slid the cable and male connecter thru. Than slid on the cable nut over
the cable and tighten up against the box.
For a cover, I used a cast aluminum 50 amp water proof covers, the type use for
mounting receptacles outside. This has a spring swing door. You will have to
tapped the flange on the box to fitted the cover.
The connector lugs on the cable receptacles and cord connectors are set screw
type and will accept No. 6 stranded wire at ease. The wires connect straight
in so as if you forget to unplug it before you go, where I did about 4 times so
far, the cable wires and cable will pull straight out with no damage to the the
connecter. This connecter combination is made out of tough nylon.
I normally have 45 amps going through this connector with no problems. When
you get into industrial receptacles and connectors, they are rated at 100 %
continuous current rating, unlike residential type which is only rated for a
certain time at 100%.
You may be able to get the Daniel Woodhead from Home Depot. I seen a display
of some types there. I had other devices special order by them there.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Ron Freund<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> ;
SFEVA<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: 4 prong connector
Here is a picture of the connector.
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00024.JPG<http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00024.JPG>
http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00027.JPG<http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00027.JPG>
If anyone knows where to find
this recessed male I'd sure like to know. I'd settle for 50 amp also or 30
amp as long as the form factor is the same. 4 prong twist or if there is a
recessed male 4 prong non twist that would work. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Freund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: 4 prong connector
> Hi Lawrence:
> Could you take a digital photo of this and post it
> on the group in the files area? That way we could
> look at it, and I can come up with the official
> NEMA designated reference number for a replacement.
> I believe the safety "thingie" is a custom add-on.
> I had one like that on my conversion too. When it
> died, the cause was the switch had worn out inside.
> I stopped using it, and left it for the next guy to
> deal with. That man, not being even slightly
> technical with challanges in the basic arithmetic
> department as well - hasn't done anything. Fine.
>
> I have all necesary look up charts and a good head on
> photo, with a US quarter dollar nearby for size
> reference would do the trick. Let' see what it is!
>
> Ron
> Los Gatos,
> EV+PV=success!
> --
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/<http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, I would absolutely NOT put another male receptacle on that
EV! It is a serious safety hazard. Why on earth would you want to leave
pins live to your 120 VDC pack accessible to little fingers? All you need
is a curious child and you have a potential disaster. Think about
it. When the charger is not plugged into the EV its output connector is
dead. That is where the male connector should be. A male connector on the
charger output cord does not represent any hazard, but a male connector on
the EV inlet does.
Bottom line. Replace the connector on the EV with a FEMALE 5 pin
connector. Replace the charger output connector with the matching male
plug. A good choice would be something like an L21-30. Wire one blade to
pack positive (120 VDC), Wire the opposite to pack negative (120
VDC). Wire the next blade to 12 Volt Positive, and wire the opposite to 12
Volt Negative. Wire a jumper from the center pin to the 12 Volt negative
pin on the charger plug end. On the EV side, wire the center pin to the
ground connector on a 12 Volt relay. Wire the positive connector of the
relay to the "ignition circuit of the EV. Now wire the normally closed
relay contacts to interrupt the main contactor power circuit. This should
be the connections that went to the original switch mounted in the
inlet. This will insure that it is not possible to drive off in the EV
with the cord plugged in. The main contactor will not close and the EV
will not run.
FWIW I understand the connector used on the Jet conversions is not a NEMA
unit, but a unique connector made by mixing parts of NEMA connectors together.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Wasting imported oil is not an act of patriotism, conserving it is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:40:20 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Here is a picture of the connector.
>http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00024.JPG
>http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/pics/DSC00027.JPG If anyone knows where to find
>this recessed male I'd sure like to know. I'd settle for 50 amp also or 30
>amp as long as the form factor is the same. 4 prong twist or if there is a
>recessed male 4 prong non twist that would work. LR..........
That is the L14-30 that I mentioned last week. The standard
twist-lock for larger portable generators. I can't quite read the
writing but I think that's a Hubble brand. Pretty much any electrical
house will either stock it or can order it for you. I bet you could
even special order it from Home Depot or Lowe's. Graingers and other
online MRO outfits should also have it. I'd figure maybe $35-40 for
the whole assembly.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ron Freund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:04 AM
>Subject: 4 prong connector
>
>
>> Hi Lawrence:
>> Could you take a digital photo of this and post it
>> on the group in the files area? That way we could
>> look at it, and I can come up with the official
>> NEMA designated reference number for a replacement.
>> I believe the safety "thingie" is a custom add-on.
>> I had one like that on my conversion too. When it
>> died, the cause was the switch had worn out inside.
>> I stopped using it, and left it for the next guy to
>> deal with. That man, not being even slightly
>> technical with challanges in the basic arithmetic
>> department as well - hasn't done anything. Fine.
>>
>> I have all necesary look up charts and a good head on
>> photo, with a US quarter dollar nearby for size
>> reference would do the trick. Let' see what it is!
>>
>> Ron
>> Los Gatos,
>> EV+PV=success!
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys just some food for thought
It is possible to build 1500VDC 3000Amp AC controller/motors . I work
with the railway in Sydney Australia and all our trains run on 1500VDC
supply and can continuously draw a maximum of 3000amps. They can produce
a similar ampage in regen. The AC controllers (made by ALSTOM I
believe) can do this because they are actively cooled (refrigerated) so
the technology is out there, just maybe not so practical for EV's at the
moment.
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2005 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: An AC style "bypass"?
"supply big power DC to the commutator, which in turn
> generates
> (somewhat manky) AC. "
That's a DC brush motor, not an AC induction motor.
No need to add brushes to the AC motor, just bigger
silicon devices.
If you want big amps on the AC motor you'll need some
serious silicon, which is not cheap.
I think in the next 5 years this will be possible and competitive,
expecially with high voltage. Maybe an 800Vdc pack with a 1600Vdc rated
inverter?
--- Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, here's a crazy idea - how about an AC motor with
> attached
> commutator? So you use the AC drive electronics up
> to a certain point,
> then just flick a switch (several big bulky relays,
> more like) and
> supply big power DC to the commutator, which in turn generates
> (somewhat manky) AC. You could probably fix it up to
> be 'better' AC
> with some capacitive-inductive magic, maybe someone
> with the
> appropriate analogue electronics knowhow could
> comment on whether it's
> possible or not? :)
>
> A commutator is just a mechanical inverter, after
> all.
>
> On 4/28/05, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I still think one of these could be built. I want
> one with two
> > settings: All or nothing.
> >
> > Isn't there some devious way to construct an all
> or nothing type
> > inverter? And cheaply?
> >
> > I think we could get down the drag strip with one
> of those..
> >
> > Make it offer full voltage and full amperage.
> >
> > What would it consist of?
> >
> > How simple can you make it?
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does it weigh and how much space is required (including the chiller)?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Haines" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: An AC style "bypass"?
> Hey guys just some food for thought
>
> It is possible to build 1500VDC 3000Amp AC controller/motors . I work
> with the railway in Sydney Australia and all our trains run on 1500VDC
> supply and can continuously draw a maximum of 3000amps. They can produce
> a similar ampage in regen. The AC controllers (made by ALSTOM I
> believe) can do this because they are actively cooled (refrigerated) so
> the technology is out there, just maybe not so practical for EV's at the
> moment.
>
> Ben
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2005 12:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: An AC style "bypass"?
>
>
> "supply big power DC to the commutator, which in turn
> > generates
> > (somewhat manky) AC. "
> That's a DC brush motor, not an AC induction motor.
> No need to add brushes to the AC motor, just bigger
> silicon devices.
> If you want big amps on the AC motor you'll need some
> serious silicon, which is not cheap.
> I think in the next 5 years this will be possible and competitive,
> expecially with high voltage. Maybe an 800Vdc pack with a 1600Vdc rated
> inverter?
>
> --- Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > OK, here's a crazy idea - how about an AC motor with
> > attached
> > commutator? So you use the AC drive electronics up
> > to a certain point,
> > then just flick a switch (several big bulky relays,
> > more like) and
> > supply big power DC to the commutator, which in turn generates
> > (somewhat manky) AC. You could probably fix it up to
> > be 'better' AC
> > with some capacitive-inductive magic, maybe someone
> > with the
> > appropriate analogue electronics knowhow could
> > comment on whether it's
> > possible or not? :)
> >
> > A commutator is just a mechanical inverter, after
> > all.
> >
> > On 4/28/05, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > I still think one of these could be built. I want
> > one with two
> > > settings: All or nothing.
> > >
> > > Isn't there some devious way to construct an all
> > or nothing type
> > > inverter? And cheaply?
> > >
> > > I think we could get down the drag strip with one
> > of those..
> > >
> > > Make it offer full voltage and full amperage.
> > >
> > > What would it consist of?
> > >
> > > How simple can you make it?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
