EV Digest 4349
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Two motors, Two controllers Single POT?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) TdS Report #25: Governor Pataki to speak at the Tour de Sol in Albany
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Looking for help w/ a replacement contactor
by Duncan Orthner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) specific gravity meter
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging and Peukert effect question
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: specific gravity meter
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "eBay hype" or innovation?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery box
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: specific gravity meter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery box
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Charging and Peukert effect question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Static buildup on EVs
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: newbie intro
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Two motors, Two controllers Single POT?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Charger schematic
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: An update regarding my JeepEV
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Charging and Peukert effect question
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging and Peukert effect question
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Charging and Peukert effect question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: newbie intro
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery box
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: A very SMART GFCI ??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Two motors, Two controllers Single POT?
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) 1994 Dodge TEVan for sale on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: newbie intro
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Driving my S-15 with no power after 30mph may be causing me to confuse things
more then usual.
My thought process at the beginning was I have two etek motors so each motor
would only get 300 and not for long. A single motor matches up pretty closely
with the controller.
Millipak : 325 Amps one minute, 130 one hour.
ETek : 300 Amps 30 seconds, 150? continuous.
So I was thinking I should pair them off with their own controller since their
isn't a larger model controller. To use one controller I'd have to do 600 amps
so it would be 300 amps available for each motor. That way even at a higher RPM
I'd still have full torque available if I needed it. If I only needed the
extra torque at lower rpms I could use one controller and go Series/Parallel
but I'm not sure if that is enough. I'm trying to avoid utter dissappointment,
and wasted money, by buying not enough controller.
Mark Hastings
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How long do you expect an Etek to see that 600+ amps? That's a *lot* for
this motor!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #25: Governor Pataki to speak at the Tour de Sol in Albany
It has been confirmed that Governor George Pataki will speak at the Tour de Sol
event on the Empire State Plaza in Albany New York on Monday, May 16th 2005.
He is scheduled to open the ceremonies at 11 am.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Further along with this, I happen to have a set of forward/reverse
contactors on hand but I can't seem to find any specs on them. They are
Curtis/Allbright units type SW202-182 w/ 24v coils. Does anyone know how
much current these can handle?
Best, Duncan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe I've seen any postings on this, at least not
recently.
I was discussing with a fellow EV'er whether there are any meters
to read specific gravity and send a digital readout to a
computer. Would think it would have two electrodes that would
dip into the electrolyte as you put the meter over the filler
hole. Wouldn't seem to be all that hard to make such a device,
but ones I've heard about are at least a kilobuck. Find two
dissimilar metals that would produce a usable voltage, somewhat
like a soil moisture reader. Perhaps even one of those could be
modified?
What I have now is a nice (Franz?) hydrometer that came with Mike
Brown's VoltsRabbit kit some ten years ago. Nice large float
with very legible markings. It just doesn't go direct to the
spreadsheet on the computer - I use a portable tape recorder to
read off the raw specific gravity and temperature for each of the
48 cells in my pack, then later feed the audio into the computer
where I then transcribe it into the spreadsheet. I do the
hydrometer readings every other month, and the pack end of the
process takes me about 45 minutes, and then the transcribing into
the computer takes another hour or so.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://nbeaa.org
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
Thanks for the excellent answer! I am still wondering why I can't get at
the remaining Amp hours, but I suspect the answer would be a little more
technical than I really care to get into. I do feel better now though; I
was thinking that at higher discharge rates, I would have to put much
more energy back into the battery to recharge, which would fly in the
face of efficiency!
Nick
Roger Stockton wrote:
Nick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If I have a constant discharge rate of say 100 amps, I should
get about 110-120ah out of my batteries.
On the other hand, if I discharge at about 10 amps, I should
get about 220 ah out of these batteries.
In both cases, the batteries are discharged to about 100 percent of
capacity.
My question is:
When I recharge them, am I going to put ~220ah back into the
batteries in both cases, or am I going to only put 110-120ah back
in after the 100amp discharge and 220ah after the 10amp discharge?
You only return about 110% of what you removed. If you discharge at a
high rate and only get 100Ah, then you will only have to return about
110Ah to fully charge the battery. If you discharge at a low rate and
get 220Ah, then you'll return about 240Ah.
I guess I am wondering where the extra amp hours are
going when the Peukert effect kicks in.
The "extra" Ah, that is the 120Ah that you don't get out at the high
rate, are still in the battery. Mostly; you do lose some of them to
heat due to the I^2R losses at the high discharge rates.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a digital Hydrometer
http://www.sbsbattery.com/utilityTelecom/hydrometer.html
works by refracting the liquid, electrolyte.
Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:03 PM
Subject: specific gravity meter
>I don't believe I've seen any postings on this, at least not
> recently.
>
> I was discussing with a fellow EV'er whether there are any meters
> to read specific gravity and send a digital readout to a
> computer. Would think it would have two electrodes that would
> dip into the electrolyte as you put the meter over the filler
> hole. Wouldn't seem to be all that hard to make such a device,
> but ones I've heard about are at least a kilobuck. Find two
> dissimilar metals that would produce a usable voltage, somewhat
> like a soil moisture reader. Perhaps even one of those could be
> modified?
>
> What I have now is a nice (Franz?) hydrometer that came with Mike
> Brown's VoltsRabbit kit some ten years ago. Nice large float
> with very legible markings. It just doesn't go direct to the
> spreadsheet on the computer - I use a portable tape recorder to
> read off the raw specific gravity and temperature for each of the
> 48 cells in my pack, then later feed the audio into the computer
> where I then transcribe it into the spreadsheet. I do the
> hydrometer readings every other month, and the pack end of the
> process takes me about 45 minutes, and then the transcribing into
> the computer takes another hour or so.
>
> Chuck
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> http://nbeaa.org
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember that an EVent in Vancouver mentioned battery revival. Any word
from that EVent that it worked. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: "eBay hype" or innovation?
More pulse charging or something new? Found this on eBay, but I'd be
suspect of
any "battery revival" technology:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7514789483
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on what type of batteries you have. My Trojan T-145's are tight
together at the tops with about 1/4 inch space around the batteries below the
tops to the bottom of the battery. There is also a 1/4 inch space between the
batteries and the battery box for ease of getting the batteries in.
If you have batteries where the tops are wider then the bottoms, than you will
need no space in the middle areas.
When a large battery packs is assemble using 2 volt cells that have there
separate containers (call jars), they are pack in tight and a sealant is pour
on the tops which seals the joints between the battery tops.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: TiM M<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV-List-Post<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 2:41 PM
Subject: Battery box
Well, I melted a post off one my tired old batteries.
It's time to replace them and their cables. I'm adding
batteries so I'm going to have to replace the battery
box. It's in the truck bed so it's a pretty easy
redesign. What I need to know is how much room to add
for clearence expansion? Do lead acid batteries swell
much, and if they do is it a bad thing to restrict it?
TiM McCann
'61 Electrc Corvair Rampside
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was discussing with a fellow EV'er whether there are any
> meters to read specific gravity and send a digital readout to
> a computer.
Yes, they are available, but they are very pricey.
The ones I have looked up are refractometers (i.e. they measure the s.g.
optically), and the nicest unit was one which would store your readings
for later serial download. This has the advantage that you don't need
to be tethered to a PC while taking the readings (reducing the
odds of splashing acid on the computer).
A possibility is this $400 model from MISCO:
<http://www.misco.com/products.php?productid=359#specifications>. One
of the scales available for it is 'sulfuric acid'. MISCO's site doesn't
mention serial communications capability, but Metex's site describes the
PA200 model as having the ability to store up to 255 readings and
download them to PC via an infrared interface
<http://www.process-controls.com/Metex/Misco/pa200_palm_abbe.htm>.
Might be worth checking with MISCO if the PA203 model that you can get
programmed with a s.g. scale for sulfuric acid has the serial comms
capability or not.
> What I have now is a nice (Franz?) hydrometer that came with
> Mike Brown's VoltsRabbit kit some ten years ago. Nice large
> float with very legible markings. It just doesn't go direct
> to the spreadsheet on the computer - I use a portable tape
> recorder to read off the raw specific gravity and temperature
> for each of the 48 cells in my pack, then later feed the
> audio into the computer where I then transcribe it into the
> spreadsheet. I do the hydrometer readings every other month,
> and the pack end of the process takes me about 45 minutes,
> and then the transcribing into the computer takes another hour or so.
You might find that using a manual refractometer (e.g.
<http://www.misco.com/products/7064VP%2B.html> for $149) speeds the
process up a bit for you (certainly, it will allow more accurate
readings than your hydrometer). However, it seems that most of your
time is consumed transcribing the readings.
Perhaps a more cost-effective solution for you would be to get some
voice recognition software for your PC so that you could let your
recording "dictate" the readings directly into your spreadsheet?
Is your recorder voice-activated so that the total recording is only a
few minutes long rather than the same 45min that it took to take the
readings? If it is, then "dictating" into the PC may be the timesaver
you are looking for, however, if the recording is 45min long then
"dictating" to the PC will still take 45min which is not a big
improvement over the present 1hr.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd add 1/16" to 1/8" per side, per battery.
Swelling is a natural occurence, the way they're made,
and in restricting the expansion, you'll restrict your
ability to pull them out. (;-p
--- TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I melted a post off one my tired old
> batteries.
> It's time to replace them and their cables. I'm
> adding
> batteries so I'm going to have to replace the
> battery
> box. It's in the truck bed so it's a pretty easy
> redesign. What I need to know is how much room to
> add
> for clearence expansion? Do lead acid batteries
> swell
> much, and if they do is it a bad thing to restrict
> it?
>
> TiM McCann
> '61 Electrc Corvair Rampside
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
Discover Yahoo!
Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks for the excellent answer! I am still wondering why I
> can't get at the remaining Amp hours, but I suspect the
> answer would be a little more technical than I really care
> to get into.
This may help! ;^>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: February 3, 2002 8:40 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Nickel-zinc Batteries Peukert for newbies
>
> > I had to see what all this peukert stuff was about and
> > found it quite intuitively explained at
> > www.amplepower.com/pwrnews/beer/
> > ymmv
>
> LOL -- I LIKE IT!!!!
>
> Battery theory as told by Homer Simson.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just curious, all;
As an ICE, my Civic would shock me in certain times
of the year. Needless to say, it's quite the
aerodynamic shape, and as it cuts through dry air,
that makes sense.
Now as an EV, I get shocked the WHOLE year. It's
not a nasty zap, just a normal static discharge as I
shut the door. I can't remember the VoltsRabbit doing
that.
Any bright ideas why it happens? Floating pack in
both, so...?
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom and All,
Welcome to the world of EV's!!!
First I'd recommend a smaller, lighter
glider to start with as the price of a conversion and
it's range is directly related to it's weight and it's
speed and range at speed is directly related to the
frontal area, aero CD, both of which is fairly bad on
the Explorer.
If you must stick with an SUV, an older
Blazer, Suzuki, ect would be better.
Much better would be an older front wheel
drive, light, aero car for better performance, range
for the same money.
Bob's book is still very good though a
greater selection of EV parts is available now.
Try to get with local EV'ers if you can as
they are a good source of info.Especially if they have
been driving more than 2yrs as by then they have
learned what they need to know to keep an EV running.
It's easy but needs to be done correctly so
the batts last which can be 7 yrs or as short as a few
months if abused. So learn battery care and feeding
well to make your EV successful.
But you have come to the best source of EV
info in the world by people who have driven, lived
EV's for many yrs successfully.
Feel free to ask questions as it's the only
way to learn.
FAQ's are on many EV websites you can find by
googling EV clubs, ect and following their links.
The EV Photo Album can give you many ideas as
to what has been done and works.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- tom koehler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings, folks. My name is tom koehler, and I live
> in northeastern
> Minnesota. I've been doing a lot of thinking about
> an electric car
> conversion project, and have decided to act. I know
> that there is much
> to learn, and will be going over the ev archives as
> much as I can. My
> first reference book is "Build Your Own Electric
> Vehicle" by Bob Brant.
> Though it is about 10 years old, I'm hoping it will
> still be a good
> starting point for me. If you have other favorite
> references, please
> let me know, if you will.
>
> I've looked for reference to a list of FAQ's for
> this group, but so far
> have failed to find such a reference. Is there such
> a list?
>
> My ruminations so far, for my project are as
> follows: the donor car
> would be my '93 2-door Explorer. (is physically
> sound and good
> condition) My intention is to convert it to front
> wheel drive,
> connecting the drive motor directly to the transfer
> case. The transfer
> case has two "speeds" 1:1 and 2:1. Most usage will
> be in town, so the
> 2:1 gear should suffice. When I do decide to take
> this vehicle out of
> town, I believe the 1:1 gear should work out.
> There's no serious
> hill-climbing ability needed. Replace the
> conventional rear axle and
> differential with a "straight" axle from another
> front wheel drive
> vehicle. The contemplated system would be 120 volts
> DC.
>
> I've a fairly thick hide, so please do not worry
> about bruising my
> tender ego with your remarks and feedback. I'm going
> back into lurk
> mode again, for awhile. Got to continue working on
> my list of questions.
>
> Thanks for your time.
> tom koehler
>
> I will find a way, or make one.
> (attributed to Hannibal, crossing the Alps
> with his elephants in the Second Punic War,
> 22 centuries ago)
>
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Rich Rudman wrote:
My hunch is there might be some outside contamination on the back 6 pins of
the timer adjust solder leads. The upper boards comes out pretty easily, and
you could wash it with warm soapy water, rinse until extremely clean, blow
dry and let sit in a the hot sun for about 1/2 a hour and them reassemble...
If the clock pot is the issue this will cure it..
Okay, I'll take a look inside when I get time, but...
The blink rate in three steps says you only have 3 clicks on the timer
from zero. Weather the pot is set there or not.....
Okay, I took a photo of my charger as describing the position of the
timer pot with words is (apparently) both vague and confusing.
Okay, the _yellow_ arrow in the photo is what I've been perceiving as
the direction in which the pot is currently set (9:00). However, after
looking at the photo I took, I see an indention in the pot head that
looks like _that_ might be the thing indicating the direction, which
would be what the _red_ arrow in the photo is suggesting (6:00). Which
is it?
Link: http://www.driveev.com/temp/timerpot1.jpg
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
--- Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Driving my S-15 with no power after 30mph may be
> causing me to confuse things more then usual.
Try shifting into a higher gear or field
weakening turbo switch for more high end power.
> My thought process at the beginning was I have two
> etek motors so each motor would only get 300 and not
> for long. A single motor matches up pretty closely
> with the controller.
But you can get 330 amps to each easily just by
doing series/parallel the motors with a contactor and
2 diodes and just 1 controller.
With direct drive and your lightweight, 3wh, low
drag commuter, it should give you plenty of power, as
much as 2 controllers up to 35mph and almost as much
above that as you can't run E-tek at high currents for
long.
I'd put computer box fans on the brush side to
help the overheating problems they may have but with
your lightweight, low drag it shouldn't be much of a
problem.
As PM motors they have plenty of high end power
so getting starting torque can be satified easily by
S/P the motors, saving money. If it doesn't work as
well as you think, you can always add another
controller later but I doubt you will need it as it
should go quite fast with just 1 controller.
For your small EV using the E-teks with the
Sevcon gives you much better eff of around 88% for the
motors and add to that regen, and the range should go
up 20% over a series motor.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> Millipak : 325 Amps one minute, 130 one hour.
> ETek : 300 Amps 30 seconds, 150? continuous.
> So I was thinking I should pair them off with their
> own controller since their isn't a larger model
> controller. To use one controller I'd have to do 600
> amps so it would be 300 amps available for each
> motor. That way even at a higher RPM I'd still have
> full torque available if I needed it. If I only
> needed the extra torque at lower rpms I could use
> one controller and go Series/Parallel but I'm not
> sure if that is enough. I'm trying to avoid utter
> dissappointment, and wasted money, by buying not
> enough controller.
>
> Mark Hastings
>
>
>
>
>
> Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How long do you expect an Etek to see that 600+
> amps? That's a *lot* for
> this motor!
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
Discover Yahoo!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I finally found the schematic for the Home Made Charger I mentioned a
week or so ago. I've
uploaded it to the files section of the EV group. At least I hope I did. If
it's not there let me
know and I'll try again.
As simple as it is, it's more than I could have figured out on my own. But I
was able to build it
fairly easily. I also incorporated some of the changes that were mentioned in
the threads from my
first post.
I moved the 120 volt, 5 amp fuse to between the variac and the bridge. I have
an additional 20 amp
breaker on the incoming AC line. The last fuse is on the + DC out after the
shunt. I included a
switch so I can turn the whole thing off or leave the fan running with the
variac turned down.
I have a volt meter to measure the DC voltage on the way out. The ammeter (30
amp) works off a
shunt located after the bridge. The bridge is mounted on a nice piece of
aluminum for heat
dissipation. The fan blows directly on the variac and bridge. I have an
intermatic timer switch
which can be set for up to 12 hours.
I have turned it on but have not put it to work yet. The voltage goes up and
down with the variac.
If there are any changes I need to make before I put it to work, please let me
know. I'm still
dotting the last I's and crossing the last T's. Right now the most I hope to do
with it is
commission charge 24 volt packs of NiCads. If I can do that reliably, I'll be
happy.
Thanks for your help
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
You say the pack started off pretty deeply discharged, yet bulk
lasted only 1.25hr @ ~29A, which is just 36.25Ah returned to the
pack. The odd thing here is that bulk (the initial constant current
phase) should return about 80% of the Ah removed from the pack
Well, as I have no E-meter or similar device, I have no easy way of
knowing exactly what DOD my pack is at (unless I get out my hydrometer.)
So, I use voltage sag and off-load resting voltage to determine about
how much charge I have left while I'm driving.
If it is of any use, I do have a kiloWatt-hour meter in my garage which
I use to measure the amount of power I use during each charge cycle.
This information gets logged with mileage, etc. The specific charge
cycle we are discussing here took exactly 10 kWh in on the AC side from
start to finish, and I had gone 11.2 miles since the last charge cycle.
and your pack of 8VGCs ought to have a capacity of *significantly*
more than 45Ah. What do you have the charge voltage set to, and what
did you actually observe?
They are Trojan T-875s, not US Batteries. I have the voltage set to 195
volts (~2.43 volts per cell * 80 cells). Every time I've monitored
voltage while charging, I do see the voltage slowly come up to about
194.2 volts, at which point the charger timer kicks in. By the time the
blue LED is flashing at it's medium speed, the voltage will have hit
195, where it stays for the duration of the charge. The current does
taper off, but it takes recycling the charger on/off/on at least once
before it has had enough time to taper into the 2 amp range.
To fully charge flooded lead acid batteries, you need to return about
107-120% of the Ah removed, but only about 100% is typically
returned by the end of absorption (the constant voltage phase). If
you don't continue charging beyond this point, you will find your
battery capacity declining slowly from one charge cycle to the next.
Which I'm sure is what has been happening to my pack almost since it was
brand new (now ~95 cycles ago)
Usually, the last bit of charge is performed by holding the current
constant at the 3-5A finish rate (to minimise gassing, etc.) for some
additional amount of time. If the PFCxx charger doesn't have the
ability to do this,
I wonder if there is a way to force it to do this? Maybe there is a way
to trigger it through the regbus (i.e. build a separate, external
circuit that will add this functionality)?
It is still something of a crapshoot since the charger is going to
continue in the constant voltage mode, which means the current may
continue to taper and so the amount of overcharge provided will be
variable and unpredictable compared to a constant current finish
phase.
Understood. Thanks for the great info,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
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When a battery is discharged at a rapid rate, acid in intimate contact with
the battery plates gets depleted and the battery cannot continue to
deliver current at a high rate. If a battery is discharged slowly, for
example
at its 20-hour rate, acid next to the plates gets slowly replaced and the
battery can continue to deliver curent until practically all the acid is
consumed.
A battery discharged at a high rate can recuperate if allowed to rest and
can continue to operate although at less than the original discharge
rate
---- Original Message -----
From: "Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Charging and Peukert effect question
Roger,
Thanks for the excellent answer! I am still wondering why I can't get at
the remaining Amp hours, but I suspect the answer would be a little more
technical than I really care to get into. I do feel better now though; I
was thinking that at higher discharge rates, I would have to put much more
energy back into the battery to recharge, which would fly in the face of
efficiency!
Nick
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Thanks for the excellent answer! I am still wondering why I can't get at
the remaining Amp hours, but I suspect the answer would be a little more
technical than I really care to get into. I do feel better now though; I
Well, you can. The trick though is you have to take the energy out much
slower to get the remaining energy. So if you drive your car at full
blast you will "empty" the battery in a short amount of time. Empty
simply means you can't continue to take the power out at full blast
however you can take power at a lower amount (say a lightbulb)
Chris
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On May 9, 2005, at 12:46 PM, Nick wrote:
If I have a constant discharge rate of say 100 amps, I should get
about 110-120ah out of my batteries.
On the other hand, if I discharge at about 10 amps, I should get about
220 ah out of these batteries.
In both cases, the batteries are discharged to about 100 percent of
capacity.
My question is:
When I recharge them, am I going to put ~220ah back into the batteries
in both cases, or am I going to only put 110-120ah back in after the
100amp discharge and 220ah after the 10amp discharge?
You have to replace actual used amp hours plus a little bit for the
less than 100% charge efficiency. I've done the test on Optimas so I
know this is the case.
Paul "neon" G.
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Welcome, Tom!
Just a couple of thoughts:
-While the Brandt book is helpful, I've found Mike
Brown's "Convert It" to be much more so.
- I'd (personally) not go with the Explorer for my
first rig. It sits high (air resistance), and EVs are
known for being sparse (at least w/ lead acid batts.)
on range. But of course, you've got to live with it.
(;-p
More info @ my link (see signature).
peace,
--- tom koehler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings, folks. My name is tom koehler, and I live
> in northeastern
> Minnesota. I've been doing a lot of thinking about
> an electric car
> conversion project, and have decided to act. I know
> that there is much
> to learn, and will be going over the ev archives as
> much as I can. My
> first reference book is "Build Your Own Electric
> Vehicle" by Bob Brant.
> Though it is about 10 years old, I'm hoping it will
> still be a good
> starting point for me. If you have other favorite
> references, please
> let me know, if you will.
>
> I've looked for reference to a list of FAQ's for
> this group, but so far
> have failed to find such a reference. Is there such
> a list?
>
> My ruminations so far, for my project are as
> follows: the donor car
> would be my '93 2-door Explorer. (is physically
> sound and good
> condition) My intention is to convert it to front
> wheel drive,
> connecting the drive motor directly to the transfer
> case. The transfer
> case has two "speeds" 1:1 and 2:1. Most usage will
> be in town, so the
> 2:1 gear should suffice. When I do decide to take
> this vehicle out of
> town, I believe the 1:1 gear should work out.
> There's no serious
> hill-climbing ability needed. Replace the
> conventional rear axle and
> differential with a "straight" axle from another
> front wheel drive
> vehicle. The contemplated system would be 120 volts
> DC.
>
> I've a fairly thick hide, so please do not worry
> about bruising my
> tender ego with your remarks and feedback. I'm going
> back into lurk
> mode again, for awhile. Got to continue working on
> my list of questions.
>
> Thanks for your time.
> tom koehler
>
> I will find a way, or make one.
> (attributed to Hannibal, crossing the Alps
> with his elephants in the Second Punic War,
> 22 centuries ago)
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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TiM M wrote:
> What I need to know is how much room to add for clearence expansion?
> Do lead acid batteries swell much, and if they do is it a bad thing to
> restrict it?
Yes, lead-acid batteries can swell quite a bit if unrestricted. You can gain as
much as 0.5" per 10" of original length on very old batteries. In some cases,
this can make them very difficult to remove!
But if you can restrict this growth, do so. It certainly will not hurt, and may
in fact help prevent shorts and keep the internal resistance lower. Large
industrial batteries use strong steel cases for precisely this reason.
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Steven Lough wrote:
> IS THERE or Could there be... a GFCI which after a few seconds,
> or a minute would RE-Set itself, assuming for a moment, that the
> leakage path was not there any more... ???? And/OR after 3 or
> more consecutive trips, would go into Manual Reset Only mode for
> safety purposes. In other words a Smart GFCI. What say you, Lee?
There *could* be, but I don't know of any that are commercially
available. I suspect that the existing UL standards specify manual
reset. One could build an automatic reset GFCI, but would have to pay UL
to create a new test standard for it. The last time I was involved in
this, it cost around $10,000.
But, would it have helped in your case? If the GFCI tripped once, I
would expect it would just trip again, until the cause for the ground
current was removed.
I would think a better alternative would be to rig an RF transmitter to
send you a signal if/when the charger shuts off. There are alarm systems
that could trip and automatically place a call to your pager or
cellphone, for example.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I've got a pair of MiliPaks, seems to work for me.
Now it's not wired the way it's supposed to, I don't think, do you have
the diagrams handy? It's got three modes, one of them uses a braking
level input aswell as the throttle. Anyway, the way I read it there is
supposed to be an ~12v signal for you to use. Regulate it, bridge it,
or whatever so as to send the two inputs 0-5v. Anyway, that didn't work
but instead it seems the signal wires all have about 12v which I pull
down to 5v with a fixed resistor and then trim the rest from 0 to 5v
with the pot. So, I've ganged up the throttles and brakes signals,
adjusted the fixed resistor(s) for a 4.8ish volt ceiling and they seem
to work just fine, as long as they are both on. If you loose one
then the current/resistor equation changes for the signal wires.
I've run them noload at 24v, a chain connecting them to eachother
seems to run with slack on both sides so they seem "even" enough.
I found out after I recieved mine that there are various models
which I guess are slightly different in their "personalities",
Sounded mostly like operating system tweaks, and what I've got
should work. So you might want to have a chat with one of their
tech guys and make sure you get exactly what you want. They can
also do a bunch of digital signalling which perhaps I'll learn to
use later down the road for some fancy rpm matching clutch tricks.
L8r
Ryan
Mark Hastings wrote:
I am going to use two PM Etek motors for my scooter/trike project and would
really like to have contactorless reverse and regen which comes with the
millipak 4Q. I wrote sevcon a while back so was hoping someone here had some
previous experience.
Can I use a single pot or a single linear accelerator that they sell to control
both controller to make sure they have the same input? My intention is to
remove another possible difference from the Dual scheme I have going. I'm
somewhat concerned the two motors and two controllers will fight eachother, or
just not fully reach their potential, but with two input I fear disaster. Is
there an off the shelf controller that will do contactorless reverse and regen
with roughly 600+ amps at 48 volts? Plan B is an altrax 650amp running them
both but then I have to add contactors for reverse and lose regen.
Mark Hastings
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4549218286
Item number: 4549218286
I have too many EV projects and not enough time to
spend with the kids (not to mention one is going to
college next year and I need $$ for that). I have 4
cars in the driveway and a wife complaining about the
clutter.
This is a nice EV and I will support whoever buys it.
Thanks,
Rod
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On May 9, 2005, at 2:41 PM, tom koehler wrote:
My ruminations so far, for my project are as follows: the donor car
would be my '93 2-door Explorer. (is physically sound and good
condition) My intention is to convert it to front wheel drive,
connecting the drive motor directly to the transfer case. The transfer
case has two "speeds" 1:1 and 2:1. Most usage will be in town, so the
2:1 gear should suffice. When I do decide to take this vehicle out of
town, I believe the 1:1 gear should work out. There's no serious
hill-climbing ability needed. Replace the conventional rear axle and
differential with a "straight" axle from another front wheel drive
vehicle. The contemplated system would be 120 volts DC.
I'm a strait shooter so here goes.
You are starting with a heavy vehicle. Is it a vehicle you really LIKE,
or just what is available? Start with something you like as the
conversion costs more than the base vehicle in most cases, plus its a
lot of work - you *want* to drive it.
A heavy vehicle means you need more power for acceptable acceleration
("acceptable" means very different things to different people.) It also
means less range for a given size battery pack. See my first point if
its not your desired "ride", perhaps something smaller is out there
that you actually like more.
I question the use of the xfr case as the tranny. Can it shift on the
fly (at good speed)? Taking off at 1:1 will not be exciting and will
raise motor and controller temperatures pretty quick. I think that the
2wd front suspension conversion and transmission is likely the better
answer.
The vehicle is a brick in the wind. High speed driving is going to suck
power fast. A single string of golf cart batteries will complain
equally fast (they don't like to hang out over 150 amps for very long.)
If you really like the vehicle it is workable. You just need more
motor, controller, and battery (I recommend 156 volts of GC batteries
and a Zilla Z1K controller as a lower power answer.) That means "more
money". I'm lucky - I like small cars :-)
Paul "neon" G.
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