EV Digest 4362
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hypothetical charger question (settings)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Chloride Charger, was PFC50 for sale
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: specific gravity meter
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EPIC Minivans for sale?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Exide 3600 (Sam's Stowaway) Charging Help
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Funny Batteries Puzzle
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: PFC50 for sale
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PFC50 for sale
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Transmissions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE:Gvans (was Chloride Charger, was PFC50 for sale)
by "Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: PFC50 for sale - CAUTION
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: PFC50 for sale - CAUTION
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Status South San Francisco Costco AVCON?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Vicor DC-DC VI-N(B)52-EM (from Halted)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: PFC50 for sale
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Funny Batteries Puzzle
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: PFC50 for sale - CAUTION
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Vicor DC-DC VI-N(B)52-EM (from Halted)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Exide 3600 (Sam's Stowaway) Charging Help
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Personal Nuclear Power: New Battery Lasts 12 Year
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?), diode bridge
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Saft BB600s - disappointing results?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Anybody know EV history?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Calculating aero drag from torque?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Calculating aero drag from torque?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Calculating aero drag from torque?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Cheap DC-DC
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Calculating aero drag from torque?
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on your batteries.
If you use Hawker Genesis, you compute the pack float voltage from the
formula:
monoblock float voltage times four plus the diode forward voltage.
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf page 10
lists the float voltage as 13.5 to 13.8 volts.
The upper voltage would be (13.8*4) +0.7 volts (55.9)
The lower voltage would be (13.5 *4)+0.7 volts (54.7)
Set all four supplies to this voltage and you should be fine.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV LIST" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:56 AM
Subject: Hypothetical charger question (settings)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Stu and Jan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:10 AM
> To: EV LIST
> Subject: Hypothetical charger question
>
> Assume the following:
>
>
>
> Four adjustable 2 AMP switching power supplies 40 to 60 VDC.
>
> Diode output on each supply for isolation.
>
> Four 12V 33 AH SLA batteries.
>
>
>
> Is it possible to use the four supplies (adjusted individually) in a 'set
it
> and forget it' mode?
>
> If so, what should the settings be?
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Very large yes but I don't know if I would say primative. Unless I am
mistaken, the ones I have use some type of microprocessor control. I have
the manual for it somewhere, I remember being impressed with the logic built
in the charger when I first got them. Since you are looking for an onboard
charger I would definately look to one of the smaller chargers available of
which Rich does indeed make a fine piece. In all fairness there are others
all of which have different features and benefits. That said, if my Martin
Marietta onboard charger ever fails I will definately consider one of Richs
units. Especially if I can talk him into putting it into one of my
ruggedized cast aluminum cases and painting it either Dillon Blue or IH
(Snap-On) Red. Let the list know how your van works out with the AGMs and
what you are using. Both of mine used AGMs (Delphi 12s and YTs) and they
didn't pan out too well. I was told by a local battery distributor (Jesse
James) that these vans did do pretty well with flooded GK batts, personally
I am still trying to come up with a set of large flooded Nicads.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale
David
Thanks
I have one of those. It is pretty primitive and very large. There is
no way I know of to modulate the charge current. It is ok for flooded
batteries, I am using AGM's with Rudman regulators. I am looking for an
inboard charger that I can set up to work with the typical conductive
charge station(forgot the name of it).
On the other hand do you have any info on the vans? I have some manuals
from Chloride but nothing with too much info.
The charger I have needs some help, I have to make the relays close to
get power out of it.
Thanks Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 4:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
Bill,
I have a good condition original 216V G-Van charger for sale. It is a
weather sealed outdoor style industrial duty Chloride Charger. It is
located
in Phx and I am looking to get $1,350.00 out of it. Note this is a large
and
heavy industrial charging station, not an onboard charger. Let me know
if
you are interested and I will be glad to e-mail you the specs and
picture.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "prime" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale
I am very much interested in the PFC50 on ebay. I have 2 early 90's G
vans
that need a charger. The configuration is 216v nominal and 30 amps
would
probably do. Before I get into a bidding war :>} with someone else on
the
list. I have an idea. Perhaps someone that wants the PFC50 or someone
else
has a charger that will do what I want. If so it could save both of
us
some
$$$.
Bill Sibner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Is your recorder voice-activated so that the total recording is
only a
> few minutes long rather than the same 45min that it took to
take the
> readings? If it is, then "dictating" into the PC may be the
timesaver
> you are looking for, however, if the recording is 45min long
then
> "dictating" to the PC will still take 45min which is not a big
> improvement over the present 1hr.
Roger, the total tape time is about half, so I usually end up
with about 20-30 minutes of tape. Cars moving by the carport
area, me making a noise, etc. turn on the voice activated
recorder. I only use the voice activation for the hydrometer
readings; voltage and watering-a-cell Y/N go fast enough that I
don't use the voice activation feature.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody know if any EPIC minivans are around which may be sold to the
public some day?
Anybody know how many were made?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Glenn
before taking out the batteries unhook the e meter ( and any other meter) , Its
easy to burn them out , I have mine on a 6 prong plug. The charger should bet
unplugged on the dc side ( also the ac side ) . Unhook the dc to dc converter
on the hi voltage side , before pulling the batteries out write down where
they go , where cables go and where the +s and -s are .
don't tighten your battery cables down to tight , there not steel , the lead
will stretch , so snug is enough . You can leave one cable between batteries
off in the middle of the pack till your done , then hook a light bulb there to
test , If it lights up and stays on , you know something is wrong , . I do
this when hooking up a controller , if all is ok , when you push the go pebble
the light will light , . rehook e meter last .
charge up the batteries before using it , don't go far on the first 10 chargers
, so as to wake up the batteries genteelly .
----- Original Message -----
From: J.R. Young
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:11 PM
Subject: Exide 3600 (Sam's Stowaway) Charging Help
Hello List,
This is my first list email, so be gentle :-) I tried searching for the data
I need using mail archive, but was unsuccessful.
I recently purchased my first EV, Jim Coate's 92 S-10 EV <Woo hoo>. I just
purchased 22 of the Sam's Stowaway batteries, the pack in the truck was pretty
much toast.
I wanted to sanity check what I was getting ready to attempt, and see if
anybody can offer any pointers:
I have a PFC-20 and I am assuming the pack should read about 138.6 volts when
charged (22 x 6.3 = 138.6). Checking all the batteries individually with a
volt meter showed voltages from 6.23-6.28. I have an older PFC-20 charger, I
was going to hook the pack up and configure the charger using the instructions
on the Manzanita Micro download page.
Any hints / tips / suggestions?
Thank you,
Glenn Young
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I had a funny battery problem over the week-end. I have a 24V battery pack
that is charged from a windmill and solar panel (about 1-2 Amp trickle-charge
during the day) for charging my electric lawnmower and to run lights/fridge
when the power goes out. The pack gets the old batteries from my EV every
year. Last year I had 6 US8V batteries in two 24V strings in parallel which
seamed ok. Since Jan I switched to 6V US125's two 4 strings in parallel. I
noticed that the voltage kept dropping over the last few weeks and there was no
night-time leakage or drain on the batteries. 3 batteries measured 4V, a
couple in one string and a couple in the other. I pulled out the low batteries
and now have one 4-battery string of 24V which appears to now be float charging
OK to 27.6V. Is it a bad thing to put two strings in parallel? Can one weak
battery not charge and start see-sawing or ratcheting the pack down from side
to side?
Puzzled, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AAARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!! Life is not fair!
I have been telling my wife (and anyone else who couldn't get away fast
enough) that I was going to buy a buck enhanced PFCXX "someday"
Now one that PERFECTLY meets my needs shows up and there is no way in
hell I can afford it right now.
The cosmos is, indeed, a bugger.
James
On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 21:47, Rod Hower wrote:
> Ebay item #7974246964
> I wonder who is selling this?
> Starting bid of $1000
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
What do you mean by the lid? what is the lid? From the pictures it looks like
all the sides to the box are there.
Thanks
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman"
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
> Sounds like it's a working unit.
> Still where's the lid??
>
> Rich
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think your idea is a good one, but you may find that locating such a
device to be pretty difficult. I've been on the lookout for something
like that for a few months now, for a motorcycle. Has to be pretty
small. The closest I've found is a Volvo OD unit, which provides 1:1
and 0.8:1 (output shaft faster than input shaft). They're cheap, small,
durable, powered by the input shaft, and are electrically shifted
on-the-fly.
If you do find a planetary that has 2 speeds, finding one where the gear
ratio differences is >= 1.5 is also difficult.
Also, most automatic transmissions are planetary gearsets.
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I was just wondering...
Has anyone tried finding a planetary or (umm, whatever the
configuration of the gears in a differential is) transmission that
could be used in an EV?
We really don't need a lot of speed choices.
A differential type transmission with 2 band brakes, and 2 clutches
could give 1:1, 2:1, and -1:1 choices - which look like a pretty good
set of choices for an EV.
It seems like there must be SOMETHING out there with this kind of
transmission, used in the power range we need.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David
I have 18 of the Interstate DCS75's and 24 Hawker Genesis 79AH batteries
to play with. I am very curious to know what happened with the AGM's
you used, why they didn't work out.
I have not had the time to dig into the charger to see how the controls
work. They were not so I just powered the relays directly to get some
charge into the DCS's. I had some bad DCS's and have not had much time
to work on the vans since. I have been trying to find a shop to rent
for them and other projects. Also with a shop I can set up the Chloride
charger. I will take a closer look at it now that you say it is not a
dumb as I thought.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Chloride Charger, was PFC50 for sale
Bill,
Very large yes but I don't know if I would say primative. Unless I am
mistaken, the ones I have use some type of microprocessor control. I
have
the manual for it somewhere, I remember being impressed with the logic
built
in the charger when I first got them. Since you are looking for an
onboard
charger I would definately look to one of the smaller chargers available
of
which Rich does indeed make a fine piece. In all fairness there are
others
all of which have different features and benefits. That said, if my
Martin
Marietta onboard charger ever fails I will definately consider one of
Richs
units. Especially if I can talk him into putting it into one of my
ruggedized cast aluminum cases and painting it either Dillon Blue or IH
(Snap-On) Red. Let the list know how your van works out with the AGMs
and
what you are using. Both of mine used AGMs (Delphi 12s and YTs) and they
didn't pan out too well. I was told by a local battery distributor
(Jesse
James) that these vans did do pretty well with flooded GK batts,
personally
I am still trying to come up with a set of large flooded Nicads.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale
> David
>
> Thanks
> I have one of those. It is pretty primitive and very large. There is
> no way I know of to modulate the charge current. It is ok for flooded
> batteries, I am using AGM's with Rudman regulators. I am looking for
an
> inboard charger that I can set up to work with the typical conductive
> charge station(forgot the name of it).
> On the other hand do you have any info on the vans? I have some
manuals
> from Chloride but nothing with too much info.
>
> The charger I have needs some help, I have to make the relays close to
> get power out of it.
>
> Thanks Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of David Chapman
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 4:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
>
> Bill,
> I have a good condition original 216V G-Van charger for sale. It is a
> weather sealed outdoor style industrial duty Chloride Charger. It is
> located
> in Phx and I am looking to get $1,350.00 out of it. Note this is a
large
> and
> heavy industrial charging station, not an onboard charger. Let me know
> if
> you are interested and I will be glad to e-mail you the specs and
> picture.
>
> David Chapman
> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "prime" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 8:50 AM
> Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale
>
>
>>I am very much interested in the PFC50 on ebay. I have 2 early 90's G
> vans
>> that need a charger. The configuration is 216v nominal and 30 amps
> would
>> probably do. Before I get into a bidding war :>} with someone else
on
> the
>> list. I have an idea. Perhaps someone that wants the PFC50 or
someone
>
>> else
>> has a charger that will do what I want. If so it could save both of
> us
>> some
>> $$$.
>>
>> Bill Sibner
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, you took this statement out of context:
"I am selling this unit working- guaranteed if you pick it up personally and
test it yourself before you take it or at a $25.00 fee, make arrangements
for me to take it anywhere in the Los Angeles area to have someone look at
it/test it before you take possession after the close of the auction. "
"Obviously if you are shipping it far away and have no means to test it
before I ship it off to you. you're on your own. However I will post on the
listing any additional information as I get it. My usual terms are "boiler
plate", however I always state what I know. "
Also, posted earlier in the web page:
"Being sold "As Is"--no refunds or returns."
*****
CAVEAT EMPTOR - for those who have not had "true" ebay experiences, this
line
===> "Being sold "As Is"--no refunds or returns." <===
typically means it DOES NOT WORK, and they know it.
*****
you have been warned...
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: May 15, 2005 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale
Seller also wrote:
"I am selling this unit working- guaranteed"
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
My first question would be where's the lid and does it still run?
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 6:47 PM
Subject: PFC50 for sale
> Ebay item #7974246964
> I wonder who is selling this?
> Starting bid of $1000
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:20 AM 5/16/2005, you wrote:
*****
CAVEAT EMPTOR - for those who have not had "true" ebay experiences, this
line
===> "Being sold "As Is"--no refunds or returns." <===
typically means it DOES NOT WORK, and they know it.
*****
Maybe for things YOU sell.
I've sold many things with AS-IS statements. It's because I can't test
them. (Like when I sold some old Macintosh accessories I got from work. I
don't have a Mac.)
There are SOME merchants who are as dishonest as you indicate, but by no
means all, and likely not a majority.
That's one of the reasons you look at the sellers rating, and recent history.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My thanks to those that contacted me offline.
The AVCON at the S. SF Costco is up and running.
My alternate EV charging location will be Colma BART.
Because public EV charging spots are usually ICEd, I need two
locations to ensure a charge for my Jury duty coming up.
Now that I have a lighter pack (I changed from US145s to US125s),
my range has been reduced from 50 miles with the US145s to 42
miles with the US125s.
Thanks for everyone's help :-)
-Bruce
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
>
> Lee Hart mentioned:
> > I've used the Vicor VI-200 series 200w modules as boosters,
> > but not one rated at 150w. The specific ones I used were 36vdc in, 12vdc
> out. I've
> > also used the Batmod variant as a booster. Neither of them made any
> > acoustic noise that I can recall.
>
> And so you're saying you did what (?) with the sense leads of the drivers to
> make them act as boosters? And what about the TRIM lead? Left them all
> just hanging open?
>
> The devil is in the details.
Sorry; you're right! With the standard VI-200 36vdc in, 12vdc out
modules, I had trim resistors on +sense, -sense, and trim to adjust them
both up to 13.5v. In the EV, I powered each input separately from 36v of
the pack. My EV had two 36v packs, and series/parallel contactors, so I
needed two independent DC/DCs to equalize the load.
But when testing on the bench, I used a single 36v supply to power them
both. I found that they did not share the load. Whichever one was
adjusted even 1 millivolt higher delivered *all* the current, until the
load was so great that it went into current limit; then the second one
began supplying current. To fix this, I cranked one VI-200's trimpot
wide open, and connected GateOut of the "driver" to GateIn of the
"booster". This caused them to share the load approximately equally
(their output currents matched within about 10%). I did not notice any
acoustic noise when they were operating this way.
But in my EV, I couldn't tie GateIn to GateOut because the two Vicors do
not share a common ground. So, to equalize the load delivered by each, I
ran them both as Drivers, and added a commoning diode in series with
each output. The diodes caused a small current-dependent voltage drop so
that setting each Vicor's trimpot for the same voltage resulted in each
supplying about the same share of the load current. The diodes also
prevented the Vicors from drawing current *from* the accessory battery
when their inputs were off.
The second case was with a pair of Vicor Batmods being operated as a
driver-booster pair. The booster had resistors on its Vtrim and Itrim
pins to command it to full current. Its actual power output was
controlled by the GateIn-GateOut wire from the driver. Again, I noted no
instabilities or acoustic noise.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes the other pictures show a complete charger.
In fact this unit looks in excellent condition.
Of course the plug is a 14-50 Range cord and the DC side is a Anderson Blue
175 amper.
This still has the factory plugs on it. Exactly what I put on it.
It's really clear that the seller doesn't know much about it. 50 amp 240
Range outlets are pretty common...
I would NOT ask to have him power up the unit!!!! Unless you have it
connected to a battery pack.
I see he has a single bid for 1000, So... it's not cheap anymore...
And the list for this Charger is $3000 not $2500.
Gotta go make PFC50 #32....
I am off to the production shop..
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
> Rich,
>
> What do you mean by the lid? what is the lid? From the pictures it looks
like all the sides to the box are there.
>
> Thanks
> Rush
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman"
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: PFC50 for sale
>
>
> > Sounds like it's a working unit.
> > Still where's the lid??
> >
> > Rich
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> Is it a bad thing to put two strings in parallel?
Normally, it's fine. It's only a problem when a battery fails. Since you
are using used batteries, the chance of a bad cell may be high. If one
cell fails, it drags down the rest of the cells in parallel with it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's your ebay ID, I will keep an eye out for you... ;-)
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Lussmyer
Sent: May 16, 2005 8:30 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: PFC50 for sale - CAUTION
At 08:20 AM 5/16/2005, you wrote:
>*****
>CAVEAT EMPTOR - for those who have not had "true" ebay experiences,
>this line
>
> ===> "Being sold "As Is"--no refunds or returns." <===
>
>typically means it DOES NOT WORK, and they know it.
>*****
Maybe for things YOU sell.
I've sold many things with AS-IS statements. It's because I can't test
them. (Like when I sold some old Macintosh accessories I got from work. I
don't have a Mac.) There are SOME merchants who are as dishonest as you
indicate, but by no means all, and likely not a majority.
That's one of the reasons you look at the sellers rating, and recent
history.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee, you've reinspired me to test this again.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
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J.R. Young wrote:
> I recently purchased my first EV, Jim Coate's 92 S-10 EV <Woo hoo>.
Congratulations, and welcome to the EV list!
> I just purchased 22 of the Sam's Stowaway batteries...
Their 6v golf cart batteries, I assume? Mine were called "Action Pack";
the "Stowaway" was their name for 12v marine/RV batteries.
> I have a PFC-20 and I am assuming the pack should read about 138.6
> volts when charged (22 x 6.3 = 138.6). Checking all the batteries
> individually with a volt meter showed voltages from 6.23-6.28.
Voltage is not a very good indicator of state of charge. It works the
best when the batteries have been sitting no-load for many hours (no
charging or discharging). Here is the what Exide says about these
batteries:
"The cart must stand idle for at least 5 hours before testing
open circuit voltage. Test every battery. A variation of 0.05
volts or more indicates trouble. Open circuit voltage in relation
to specific gravity and state of charge is as follows:"
Specific Gravity Open Circuit Volts % Charge
---------------- ------------------ --------
1.260 2.10 100%
1.220 2.06 75%
1.180 2.03 50%
1.140 1.99 25%
1.100 1.95 0%
The variation between your battery's voltages indicates that they are
not all at the same state of charge. This is typical; your batteries
probably came from different production batches and have sat around
different amounts of time since they were made.
Ideally, you would fully charge each battery individually. But as a
practical matter, that would take a week and you probably don't want to
wait that long. Next best is to simply wire them up, and perform an
"equalizing charge". This means you wire them all in series and charge
them at about 5 amps until the voltage stops rising. Check it every hour
or so; it should rise to something over 7.5v per battery (22 x 7.5v =
165v) and then start to fall.
The batteries will need to be broken in for the first few dozen
charge/discharge cycles. Do not draw high currents or deeply discharge
them during this time. This will insure a long and useful life.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/personalnuclearpowernewbatterylasts12years
Probably not something you'll find in a vehicle,
but who knows, sounds like some interesting stuff.
L8r
Ryan
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This is 2-diode center tap full wave is a standard for Lester chargers (just
on the power line instead), probably more efficient than a fullwave bridge
which is dissipating power into 4 diodes instead of two.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: Heat and Charge (Cogeneration?)
> Philip Marino wrote:
> > If you really need only 150V DC maximum, you may be able to use
> > a different configuration (similar to a full-wave center-tap
> > supply) where you only use two discrete diodes. One diode is
> > connected to each side of the 220 line. The other ends of the
> > diodes (same polarities) are connected to each other. The battery
> > goes between the junction of these two diodes and the neutral
> > power conductor.
>
> This works, but draws halfwave DC current pulses on each half of the
> 220v line. In general, this is a bad idea. The power factor is poor,
> efficiency is lower, and any transformers supplying these two half-wave
> phases will run hotter and have less power capability.
>
> If this is what you want, it is better to just connect a bridge
> rectifier to single phase 120vac. Then the AC line current is
> symmetrical, its power factor is better, so efficiency is better and
> transformers won't overheat.
>
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Ghandi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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Christopher Robison wrote:
> I've been testing a few of my designated "sacrificial" Saft BB600
> cells this afternoon, with results I'm not sure how to interpret.
> With a single cell shorted through a total of about 5 feet of 4/0
> and that massive 3000A shunt, I got about 750A. Two cells in
> series through a sandwich of two flattened 3/4" pipes as an
> intercell connector made about 1100A. Three cells connected the
> same way made about 1400A.
This means you aren't really providing a low enough load resistance. An
individual cell will obviously deliver just as much current as a string
of cells in series if you can produce a low enough resistance.
> Also, at 1400A, cell voltage fell to around 0.4V. The copper bus
> bars were getting very hot, and the cells were warming noticeably.
> How low of a voltage sag is "too low" with these cells?
I would say that 0.4v is too low. I wouldn't load them to anything less
than half of their no-load voltage. If you have 1.2v no-load, I wouldn't
pull them any lower than 0.6v. This is the "half-power" point, where
half your power is dissipated in the external load, and the other half
in the cell itself. The power being dissipated in the cell itself is why
you can't do this for more than a few seconds.
> should I expect a "breaking in" period similar to lead acid?
There will be some break-in, though not a pronounced as with lead-acid.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi,
I am still trying to find out when the last time an EV bested and ICE in
competition racing under the same set of rules. So far, I have found 'Jamais
Content' held the world speed record from 1897 to 1900 ( a steamer took the
record away ). I have not been able to find anything else. Can anybody
suggest an EV historian that I might contact?
Thanks for any help
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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We need to cut down our power usage while racing, so we plan to work on
trimming our aero drag. The SIADIS program that comes with our Siemens
controllers offers us a lot of information about what is happening with the
motors including RPM, Torque, amps, voltage.
Our orginal idea was to set the RPM limiter to 3360 which is about 60 mph
with our gearing. I would then drive the car on a flat level road while on
the rev limiter. Then turn around and drive the same section again on the
limiter.
From this we would hope to get an average torque required to keep the car at
60 mph. We could also look at watts required.
Then we make a change to the car's aero and repeat the test.
Does this seem like it should work?
As a check, I took a look at data from our July race last year. We had the
rev limiter on 5400 rpm (about 90 mph). We ran on the rev limiter for 13
seconds (and, no, this was not on purpose). During that time, the torque
varied between 12.65 ft-lbs and 17.33 ft-lbs. Amps varied from 35.3 to
45.82. Voltage from 300.38 to 304.62. So power in watts was between 10,603
and 13,957.
This varies fairly substantially from Uve's EV calculator predictions for
2,800 lbs, .32 drag Coefficient, 18 frontal area (sq. ft.). Single gear 3.9.
Uve's EV calculator says 90 mph should require 34 ft-lbs torque. Battery
amps are shown as 122 and voltage at 288 volts. This gives power as 35,014
watts but this is calculated using a Kostov motor rather than the Siemens
that we have.
According to Uve, we would need a drag Coefficient of .15 to achieve what
the data system seems to say. Then we would not have to work on aero!
Any theories why this does not seem to work?
Another idea might be to set a current limit such as 38 amps and drive our
bit of straight flat road and read the max rpm. There will be some error as
the pack is used up and voltage is lower for the same load. For best
accuracy, the test should be done each time with a full pack.
Any obvious flaws to this plan?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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On 5/16/05, ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> We need to cut down our power usage while racing, so we plan to work on
> trimming our aero drag.. ....
> As a check, I took a look at data from our July race last year. We had the
> rev limiter on 5400 rpm (about 90 mph). We ran on the rev limiter for 13
> seconds (and, no, this was not on purpose). During that time, the torque
> varied between 12.65 ft-lbs and 17.33 ft-lbs. Amps varied from 35.3 to
> 45.82. Voltage from 300.38 to 304.62. So power in watts was between 10,603
> and 13,957.
That already seems surprisingly good (perhaps suspiciously good!).
The first thing I would do is repeat the test and try to verify that
data, or ignore it and start again with some 60mph tests.
If it's correct - Good news, you have one very aerodynamic Subaru -
Bad news, making it much better might be difficult :)
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Cliff, another interesting thing to try is to cover your car with a series
of 6" pieces of yarn, taped just on one end. Use a contrasting colour. Then
video tape your car at speed from various different angles, and you may
notice where areas of turbulence are located.
(poor man's wind tunnel)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ProEV
Sent: May 16, 2005 11:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Calculating aero drag from torque?
We need to cut down our power usage while racing, so we plan to work on
trimming our aero drag. The SIADIS program that comes with our Siemens
controllers offers us a lot of information about what is happening with the
motors including RPM, Torque, amps, voltage.
Our orginal idea was to set the RPM limiter to 3360 which is about 60 mph
with our gearing. I would then drive the car on a flat level road while on
the rev limiter. Then turn around and drive the same section again on the
limiter.
>From this we would hope to get an average torque required to keep the
>car at
60 mph. We could also look at watts required.
Then we make a change to the car's aero and repeat the test.
Does this seem like it should work?
As a check, I took a look at data from our July race last year. We had the
rev limiter on 5400 rpm (about 90 mph). We ran on the rev limiter for 13
seconds (and, no, this was not on purpose). During that time, the torque
varied between 12.65 ft-lbs and 17.33 ft-lbs. Amps varied from 35.3 to
45.82. Voltage from 300.38 to 304.62. So power in watts was between 10,603
and 13,957.
This varies fairly substantially from Uve's EV calculator predictions for
2,800 lbs, .32 drag Coefficient, 18 frontal area (sq. ft.). Single gear 3.9.
Uve's EV calculator says 90 mph should require 34 ft-lbs torque. Battery
amps are shown as 122 and voltage at 288 volts. This gives power as 35,014
watts but this is calculated using a Kostov motor rather than the Siemens
that we have.
According to Uve, we would need a drag Coefficient of .15 to achieve what
the data system seems to say. Then we would not have to work on aero!
Any theories why this does not seem to work?
Another idea might be to set a current limit such as 38 amps and drive our
bit of straight flat road and read the max rpm. There will be some error as
the pack is used up and voltage is lower for the same load. For best
accuracy, the test should be done each time with a full pack.
Any obvious flaws to this plan?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I was still a little foggy on how i would use 25 batteries
> > with your balancer; except to use the battery box heater as
> > a bank select and add more 1 of 10 decoder chips and opto
> > isolators with a daughter board.
>
> Either of these methods works. The basic board is set up for
> up to 15 batteries. There are 3 general-purpose relays. I use
> one for the front battery box heater, one for the rear
> battery box heater, and one to turn the bulk charger on/off.
> If you have more than 15 batteries, use a second bank of 15
> relay, and use one of the general-purpose relays to select
> one bank or the other; this gets you to 30 batteries. Using a
> second general-purpose relay can double this again to 60 batteries.
Another alternative is to use the daughterboard I've designed for the
Balancer.
This board takes the pair of 4028 decoders and pair of ULN200x drivers
from the main board and adds a 4094 and a ULN2981 (IIRC) driver. The
original drivers are used to switch the ground line to the general
purpose relays as before and to select one of the 8 battery relays
(K1-8). The new driver is used to switch the 12V supply to the relay
boards and allows up to 8 relay boards, each with up to 8 relays
populated. LEDs provide visual confirmation of which bank (relay board)
and relay are selected.
In addition to allowing the Balancer to handle up to 64 batteries
without diverting any of the general-purpose relays, this daughterboard
also neatly corrects the layout error on the Balancer that required the
ULN200x drivers to be mounted upside down.
I've breadboarded the circuit and am presently using it to scan my pack
of YTs. I've got a PCB laid out (about 3"x4", with provisions for up to
8 DB-9Fs for connecting to the relay boards), and will order boards
shortly.
Of course, I don't know that there are any Balancer kits floating around
out there that you could pick up, and if Lee does another run, my
understanding is that the boards will be updated to include various
improvments he's identified since the original production run. Perhaps
decoding for more than 15 batteries is included amongst the changes?
Cheers,
Roger.
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Evan,
That already seems surprisingly good (perhaps suspiciously good!).
I am thinking suspiciously good. Maybe 13 seconds isn't a long enough time
for power and drag to balance but rpm was flat and torque and amps did not
vary much.
The first thing I would do is repeat the test and try to verify that
data, or ignore it and start again with some 60mph tests.
If it's correct - Good news, you have one very aerodynamic Subaru -
Bad news, making it much better might be difficult :)
Another data point. Highway driving staying between 60-65, we are seeing
around 225 watt-hrs per mile.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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