EV Digest 4429
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: More SIADIS questions...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Watt hours for EVs
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lithium safety?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Lithium safety?
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium safety?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC Drives - adapters for AC motors
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC Drives - adapters for AC motors
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lithium safety?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC Drives - adapters for AC motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Aerobatteries Arrive for White Zombie
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DC Controller failures. A list?
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jun 2005 at 12:10, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> IF you can afford $300 emeter, get $40 laptop off ebay
> and treat it as dedicated instrument for SIADIS, like
> emeter. IF you can boot to DOS off HD, it will work.
> >
I agree with Victor here. There are thousands of homeless old laptops out
there. They're too slow for current OSes and software, so would otherwise
just end up in landfills or in the infamous Chinese "high-tech recycling"
facilities.
A bonus is that since they're so old, in some cities you can even leave them
in the car - no thief would want to steal them. <g>
You can usually find them for less than $50 and maybe another $15-20 for
shipping. Sometimes you can even get one with a usable battery and/or a
nice case. A few years ago I found a deal on an old Travmate with a row of
dead pixels in the screen and a decent nicad battery. MSDOS 6 and Win 3.1
were already loaded on it. It works great for programming controllers and
chargers.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1999 VW New Beetle, Siemens AC, 26 Deka PbA Gel 60Ah (C20 rate) 312V
nominal. Curb Weight 1500kg. Measured consumption averages 187Wh/km.
Frontal area 2.49 m^2. Cd 0.38. No clutch, usually left in 2nd gear for
overall ratio of 8.78. Michelin 205/55R16 tires (not high rolling
resistance).
No measurements on charging (although the PFC-30 is quite efficient).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of William Brinsmead
Sent: June 10, 2005 9:55 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Watt hours for EVs
Hi Folks,
One of the Faculty at the Physics dept. here in Reno teaches an
engineering physics class and we were trying to get some figures for various
EVs to compare the energy cost to ICE vehicles. If I could boil it down to
watts per mile including charging loss that would be great.
Does anyone have data for a few different types of on road BEVs,
manufactured / conversions , dc, ac, regen
etc.? Thank you Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
I assume you must have used the Simovert inverter/controller with the
integrated DC-DC. From Victor's website, it looks like the integrated DC-DC
on the Simovert has a max current of 60A continuous and 90A peak (3
minutes), not 30A, although maybe you are using an older version with a 30A
max current. Given your problem of exceeding the max current of the
integrated DC-DC, I guess if you were to do it over again at the present
time, you would likely use the Simotion (which doesn't have an integrated
DC-DC) and then add on a separate DC-DC with an appropriate max current
sufficient to power your loads.
This is something for me to think about. I'm still in the early stages of
my project, in fact still just in the testing phase of our small li-ion test
pack. I haven't spec'd out my DC loads yet, but in addition to the obvious
things like lights, wipers, and radio, they will include: 1) the water
pump(s) for cooling the motor, controller, and charger; 2) at least 4 blower
fans for the battery cooling system (forced air through the battery boxes);
3) the ECU/CDU; and 4) possibly some 12V loads, not sure, if I add on an
air-conditioning system (maybe Sanden). On the other hand, the car doesn't
have power steering or power brakes, so there's no hydraulic pumps to be
powered there.
So I don't know if the 60A max current of the Simovert's integrated DC-DC
will be sufficient or have enough headroom for these loads. I guess it
might be better to go with the Simotion and do a separate DC-DC. Plus I
have to think about powering loads (1), (2), and (3) above during charging
(when I assume the controller is off).
I looked for your car on the EV Album but didn't see anything listed under
your name. But I gather it's a MR2, is that right? I'm curious, which
Siemens motor did you use? The 30kW 5133?
Thanks,
Charles
Mark Farver wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Mark Farver wrote:
One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS pump)
it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC running
all the time.
Why would you want keep turning a steering wheel in a turned off
vehicle??
You don't.
With the ignition on the 15 amp standby load (50+ amps in use) of the MR2
power steering pump, plus lights and on a bad day wipers exceeds the DC/DC
max current (30 amps?) draining the battery. Since the DC/DC turns off
with the ignition the DC/DC has no time to "catch up" and recharge the
battery. The 12v battery is always undercharged, and dies a premature
death. An external battery charger or DC/DC is the only work around.
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>partly because of the way their torque curve works.
I have yet to experience an EV for myself. With a DC motor and
transmission, what's it like going through the gears compared to an
ICE motor? Does it pull initially then go away? Does the motor only
rev to a certain point then appear to "stall out"?
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Compared to other cells failure mode, lithium and safety is not words to put
together.
it's evident they have a dangerous failure mode that you have to prevent
absolutely !
in this page there is 100 failure mode report about R/C (i like this
community because they use tiny EV, and joe abuse procedure is the same for
road or toy EV:
there is all case:
overcharge, wrong charger (nicad), no balancing (difference between cell
capacity), too much heat, hard current discharge, hard deep discharge,
charging bent cell, charging poofed cell, charging crashed cell, finaly fire
with no reason is listed too:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
imho:
a lithium EV pack should be fused on each cell (if parallel configuration)
temp monitored cut-off (no charge under 0�C, upper 40�C ambient),
under/overvoltage cut-off, batterie case/wiring uninflamable though NOT
closed (pressure going to secured free space)
individual charging and discharge current control
and all safety system you can imagine/add to NEVER see wrong thing happened.
read this, why is a car maker using lipoly cells still brainstorming about
charging the batteries outboard if there is no risk ???
http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/evuk-about193.html
Please don't talk about thundersky batteries safety, they are not EV
batteries at the moment, maybe one day they will take little more than C/2
without enormous sag and becoming an effective heater.
They can be "safe" because they have only C/2 power capabilty :^(
i'm still trying to make a "secure" big lipoly pack assembly with lots of
kiss electronic and will even try to make my cell fabrication test BUT
lithium need more R&D to became an EV battery.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Lithium safety?
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> > Chris Tromley wrote:
> >
> > >What really happens when a lithium battery burns?
> >
> > Buy the lowest cost Thunder Sky battery available and short circuit it
> > or crush it and see if anything happens... (stay out of the fumes,
> > and be ready for a possible fireball..)
> >
> > Hook that 500 amp carbon pile load tester up to it and see what it's
> > max output is and if it can do it with no damage...
> >
> > Charge the battery with no care about overcharging and see if there
> > are any ill effects...
>
> No, the point I am trying to make is that the overloading and charging
> issues should be manageable (eventually) with a good BMS. Cobalt oxide
> lithiums have some serious issues when they are mechanically penetrated
> and/or shorted (as in a crash) - apparently the fire that ensues tends to
be
> self sustaining. (See http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp for a
video.)
>
> I fairly confident lithium batteries will reach the point where they
> sufficiently limit the tendency to catch fire due to their own operation.
> What concerns me most is what happens if a lithium battery is involved in
an
> *externally-caused* fire.
>
> Neon John wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 13:32:20 -0400, "Chris Tromley"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >I have read
> > >that hydrofluoric gas can be released.
> >
> > Possibly, though the reactions don't favor that. More likely are
> > smaller molecule fluorinated hydrocarbons. When halogenated
> > hydrocarbons burn (freon, for instance), the foul smelling, choking
> > product is widely reported as HF or phosgene or ..... The
> > overwhelming percentage of the products are chloramines and
> > fluoramins. Nasty substances in their own right when concentrated but
> > not "war gas".
> >
> > The release of these substances occurs when ANY halocarbon burns.
> > Teflon, freon, tefzel, etc. The stuff in an Li battery will be
> > neither worse nor better than other substances in this class.
>
> I've dug into this a little, and what I've found contradicts your
statement.
> Unfortunately I don't know enough about the chemistry or manufacturing
> processes to speak authoritatively, but here's an MSDS that clearly states
> hydrogen fluoride is a decomposition byproduct that must be dealt with.
>
http://www.inspired-energy.com/Standard_Products/MSDS%20Moli%2018650%20up%20
> to%202400mAh.pdf It goes on in some detail about just how nasty HF is.
> Even though there is no hydrofluoric acid present in the product. This is
> for a cobalt oxide based secondary battery of 2 Ah capacity.
>
> > I know that it's an unpopular thing to do in certain circles but if
> > the manufacturer, the guys who know the product better than anyone and
> > who have to defend their claims, say that the product is safe then I
> > believe them until credible evidence to the contrary comes to light.
>
> The problem is that "safe" is a relative term, and it applies to different
> things. I believe Valence is an honorable company that is doing its best
to
> provide a beneficial product. After poking around their site, it appears
> "safe" to them means that they use phosphates instead of oxides to
minimize
> the tendency for a lithium battery to start and sustain a fire. This is
> great stuff, and I applaud their efforts. But they say *nothing at all*
> about the dangers their batteries pose when burned by external causes.
>
> <several responses snipped, all regarding the dangers of peripheral
> materials burning, not my main concern here of the decomposition products
of
> the reactive battery materials>
>
> > >I can't escape the feeling that everyone is so jazzed about lithium
> > >batteries that we are ignoring any possible downside. This is exactly
> > what
> > >happened with nuclear power.
> >
> > Well no, not actually. Nuclear was nuked by a combination of
> > ignorance, a well-funded campaign against it by other energy producers
> > (TVA won a suit regarding this some time ago) and public relations
> > ineptness on the part of operators.
> >
> > >The actual possibility of a meltdown is
> > >inconsequential if you've done your homework and take the necessary
> > steps.
> > >But no one could solve the spent fuel disposal problem, so they just
> > ignored
> > >it and figured "we'll get back to that later". Now every reactor has a
> > >growing stockpile of its own waste and the industry is essentially in
> > >maintenance mode. (And hopefully will remain so, until they properly
> > solve
> > >that nagging little problem.)
> >
> > Actually the "problem" is currently "solved" (the spent fuel is being
> > safely and fairly economically stored at each site.) There is nothing
> > magic about hauling the stuff across country and burying it. It's a
> > waste of resources since only about 3% of the fissionable uranium is
> > burned in a power reactor but certainly not a hazard.
> >
> > I think the analogy is good, though, in a way you might not
> > appreciate. Nuke power was slaughtered by rumor, innuendo, outright
> > lies and hysteria. Our attitude for too long was that since this
> > stuff was so good, how could we take the critics seriously?
> >
> > Which is a mistake we have to not make. Once there is money to be
> > made in opposition, the critics will crawl out of the mud and spew
> > forth all manner of lies and distortions. We have to take them
> > seriously and expose the lies early on.
>
> At the risk of an OT discussion, let me clarify my use of the nuclear
> analogy so it makes my intended point. I will avoid opinion and spin
where
> possible and stick to facts.
>
> FACTS:
> Nuclear power is wonderfully clean as it makes electricity. It is a
totally
> cool technology. The potential for horrific accidents does exist, with
> devastating and essentially permanent environmental effects. (Set aside
20
> minutes and go to
> http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/chapter1.html .) It is
quite
> possible though, to operate these facilities with such a robust approach
to
> safety to virtually eliminate this risk.
>
> The fly in the ointment is that some nuclear waste materials remain lethal
> for 100s of *thousands* of years. Human civilization has existed for only
> around 15000. Let that soak in a moment. How many civilizations have
> risen, fallen and disappeared in a measly 15000 years?
>
> OPINION:
> The coolness or potential of the technology does not justify overlooking,
> minimizing or dismissing the problems. Even if it's possible to ensure
the
> safety of that waste *forever* (which is the subject of vigorous debate
and
> which I seriously doubt), it's just plain wrong to impose that burden on
> 1000s of generations to come.
>
> Lithium batteries are very cool. So cool it's easy to overlook the
> problems. So far there are indications of possible problems, but no one
is
> talking about them much. Either for or against. *Now* is the time to
> identify them and address them. Whatever you believe are the reasons, the
> nuclear industry is dead. I don't want that to happen to a promising new
EV
> technology.
>
> > >The risk of a lithium "meltdown" can also be inconsequential with a
good
> > >BMS. But it looks like someday, after we've all enthusiastically
> > endorsed
> > >the technology, we might find people are getting seriously messed up by
> > it.
> > >If so, we'll have some very embarrassing questions to answer. Those
with
> > >investments to lose will continue to defend the technology, no matter
> > what.
> > >Kinda puts us EVers in the same group as tobacco lobbyists and oil
> > >executives.
> >
> > Boy, that's a broad smear based on nothing at all. I personally doubt
> > that a full scale Li battery meltdown is even possible (just like the
> > incredibility of a full core melt accident in a nuke) but even if it
> > is, so what? We all drive around with many times the potential energy
> > in our gas tanks and THAT energy can be released very rapidly
> > (explosion or rapid combustion.) No one other than firemen give that
> > much thought at all. In my lifetime, the BEST I can hope for in Li
> > batteries is the energy equivalent of a few gallons of gasoline.
>
> It is human nature to act in one's own self-interest. A very strong case
> can be made that *all* actions by all people at all times are solely out
of
> self-interest. So yes, it's a broad smear, but based on human nature.
>
> Watch the video above. Valence is pretty convincing in suggesting that a
> full-pack meltdown (non-Saphion) is a very real possibility. These are
the
> people you suggested I trust concerning the safety of the product.
>
> > The problem here, as with the perceived hazards associated with
> > nuclear power, is that people with little or no scientific knowledge
> > and experience is that they have no sense of proportionality.
> > According to the government, the risk of being killed in an ordinary
> > car wreck on any given day is something like 1 in 700 yet very few
> > people give that more than a passing thought. Contrast that to the
> > absolutely out of control emotional train wreck that some people
> > become when the mere mention of nuclear power is made. Even if the
> > risks were as bad as the critics claim, the probability of being
> > harmed by a nuke is vanishingly low.
>
> The critical difference between car wrecks and nuke disasters is that I
have
> some choice and control over my fate in a vehicle. I think you'll find
the
> general public feels similarly. You are quite correct about the perceived
> hazards and sense pf proportionality, though. The reason I raised this
> issue is that I've seen indications of potential problems, coupled with
what
> seems to me to be a specific desire to *not* talk about them. That's the
> sort of thing that's guaranteed to pique my interest.
>
> I'm honestly not trying to malign the lithium battery industry or engage
in
> fear-mongering. I'm trying to get us to open our eyes and see *all* of
> reality, not just what we want to see. I want to find that there is in
fact
> no problem here, or that any real problems are reasonably limited. I
> believe that might even be likely. But I'm not going to assume it because
> no one wants to talk about it. We don't know yet. We don't have the
facts.
>
> > Or if you don't want to talk about nukes, consider mad cow disease.
> > There is yet to be a proven trail from the cow form to the human form
> > of the disease and there have only been a few cow cases and yet entire
> > continents have gone ape-sh*t. Meanwhile such real risks as the
> > common flu get scant attention. Consider how many people the flu
> > kills each year and then consider how little is done to prevent it.
> > Flu shots are about it. No proportionality at all.
>
> You're absolutely right. Sorry, I can't make the whole world act
> rationally. I have to pick my battles. ;^)
>
> > >*Definitely* keep developing lithium batteries. But *do*not* ignore
the
> > >problems it poses. If problems exist fix them sooner, not later. The
> > first
> > >step is a clear and open discussion of what the problems are.
> >
> > This sounds like a version of "consensus science" (sic) where the
> > correct science is whatever the consensus is at the moment and the
> > many sides to the discussion have equal value. There was once a
> > consensus that the earth was flat but that didn't make it so!
>
> No, quite the opposite. At this point I see the consensus view being that
> lithium batteries are the Next Big Thing, so let's just go for it. I hope
> the consensus is correct. But I believe it's much better for such a
> consensus to be based on fact. Not hope, enthusiasm and ignorance.
>
> > What "we" need to do is to prepare educational materials, dumbed down
> > to the reading level of the general public and the media, on these
> > batteries and distribute it widely, including to the media. This
> > material should included well written articles suitable for lazy
> > journalists to cut'n'paste.
>
> Yes. AFTER we determine that the technology is truly ready for prime
time.
> It seems to me you are completely unaware of any potential HF hazard, even
> though several sources indicate there may be one. Or you don't care, and
> want to build a public consensus based on what you want to believe, or
what
> *you* think the public needs to know. I want facts. Once I get them and
> I'm satisfied with them, I'll be first in line to help you hand out your
> educational materials.
>
> If we ignore the facts and (hypothetically) HF injuries start getting
press,
> you can bet all the same rumor, innuendo and hysteria that killed the
> nuclear industry will kill lithium batteries, and EVs along with them.
>
> > >I'm not
> > >qualified to do so. Is there anyone here who is? What really happens
> > when
> > >a lithium battery burns?
> >
> > Why don't you experiment and find out? I've folded, spindled and
> > mutilated every type of Li battery I could get my hands on and I've
> > seen nothing exciting at all happen other than a burst case or two.
> > Why don't you buy a single TS cell from Victor and destructively test
> > it? Maybe he'll donate a bad one or something.
>
> Because I'm not willing to donate my lungs to the cause. There are people
> who know the answers I'm looking for. Maybe even some on this list. If
> not, at least I've given people something to think about and to look into
> more deeply. I sincerely hope we can eventually give lithium a clean bill
> of health and promote it with enthusiasm.
>
> Chris
>
>
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ok....... i've just come in from the garage having fitted a 20ah 36v lithium
battery pack to my mountain bike
reading this thread has left me totally confused as to my life expectancy
should by some dreadful turn of fate my bike catch fire
too much information ?
some hope would be nice ....... after all what is life without a little risk ?
reb
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Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
No, the point I am trying to make is that the overloading and charging
issues should be manageable (eventually) with a good BMS.
This question contains contradiction.
There is no issues with overcharging with good BMS,
overcharging won't happen. If it does - a BMS is not good.
And, it better be good. Still no 100% guarantee; ther is
no one to give you that.
My BMS has 3 layers of protection for overcharge. One cannot
"forget" to turn the charger off. Like AC drive failures
just discussed will stop a motor because in order to
run inverter has to function and *generate* (not just regulate)
running voltages, the charger has to be run by a BMS continuously,
and it shuts off unless kept awaken by properly running control.
I have estimated that for my system there is very good chance
( >>99% ) that the battery will die from any of other reasons
combined than from overcharge.
That is, provided I inadvertently tell BMS to overcharge by
overlooking critical software bug.
I'm talking about hardware/software *failure* AND chances it
will do unnoticed; the chances are practically nil.
Victor
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With a keyed shaft motor ( like the ADCs) , someone with limited machining
skills ( like me) and with access to a working mill and lathe can make a
very serviceable adapter for only the cost of the materials.
In my case, I bought a taper-lock bushing from a local bearing shop for $11,
and some 1/2 and 1 1/2 thick inch aluminum plate, and a piece of steel bar
stock for the hub. Total material and parts cost was about $100, with no
special tooling ( or techniques) needed to do the machining.
I don't see how you could do that with any splined-shaft motor ( especially
a metric-dimensioned spline).
For production vehicles, splines are probably a better choice, but they
don't allow for simple, low-cost adapters.
And, by "adapter" I mean the adapter plate(s) and the hub - you need both.
Phil
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:35:48 -0700
Mark Farver wrote:
You'll probably spend more on the adapter which will be more complicated
than a DC motor adapter.
Sorry Mark, totally false. In fact you can use ADC plate with
centering ring railored for AC motor.
The primary issue is that the motors are splined..
C'mon Mark, don't mislead newbies. You know better than
anyone that motor shaft (splines vs keyway) has absolutely
NOTHING to do with adapter plate.
If my motor would have keyed shaft, the plate would
still be *identical*.
and everything is
metric. (or was until your ADC shaft adapter)
Oh, not again. I could easily produce drawings with
dimensions in thousands of an inch already converted.
In fact, this is what I had to do for my machinist.
How difficult it was? Precisely 2 clicks of a mouse.
I scaled my metric drawing 25.4 times smaller and
every dimension in mm became a number of inches,
*directly* downloadable in CNC machine. took
less than 20 seconds.
Mine and Gary Graunke's plates were fabricated that way.
The metric stuff shouldn't be an issue, but most small machine shops
expect all the drawings will be in 1/1000's inch. It means that careful
conversions must be done when designing the plates. Can be error prone..
See above. Don't make the issue where there is none.
The splines were especially difficult.. in a larger city like Portland I
am sure you can find machine shops with the tooling or the blanks.. here
in Austin I couldn't.
The splines indeed are pain for DIY's. So I made adapter. But the splines
in industry are just as common as keys (granted, metric
spline tool sets are rare). My shop didn't care - they just
probed the shaft and made an impression of it - they don't care about
metric/inch. They just take any shape part and CNC drags a probe tip
across recording its shape.
I had to go to Houston and even then they rented the tooling to cut the
spline (Basically the hub ended up being $350, the plate and spacer
another $750).
My sympathy, but this was rather your problem than
motor's or Siemens' :-)
The splines are hardened so you can't just round the
shaft down. (and it probably wouldn't transmit power without slipping
sans keyway or splines) It might be helpful to offer machine services to
your customers..
As I said, the splines to smooth shaft converter was designed precisely for
this reson, so the customer won't have to deal with splines.
As I daid, splines are more pain than keyways until you have
right hardware. If off-shelf taper locks for splines would be
sold everywhere, there wouldn't be an issue with splines wer se,
right?
No one complains that ADC motors shafts aren't coming with
a flywheel flange as a part of the shaft already, and
everyone adapts to what they got (just keyed shaft).
Same here, just not as common yet. But I can see your pain Mark.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Mark Farver wrote:
With the ignition on the 15 amp standby load (50+ amps in use) of the MR2
power steering pump, plus lights and on a bad day wipers exceeds the
DC/DC
max current (30 amps?) draining the battery.
No, max current is 60A. If your MR2 pump drains more than 15A
standby, that is 180W wasted power, and you better disable the
pump untill detect enough torque on the steering column.
The pump running at 50A leaves 40A for your loads (you usually
steer for few seconds, at least less than 3 min).
If your pump consumens more, you need external DC-DC anyway,
regardless if internal one turns on with ignition only or not.
You can treat ignition key as "DC-DC on" key. Inverter itself
consumes about an amp from the pack.
Since the DC/DC turns off
with the ignition the DC/DC has no time to "catch up" and recharge the
battery. The 12v battery is always undercharged, and dies a premature
death. An external battery charger or DC/DC is the only work around.
Yes, if you want to keep draining 15A by the pump day and night
regardless if you drive or park, but this is very bad solution.
Why not turn everything power hungry off while parked?
Make the pump enable switch under your seat - at least
empty car will not consume 15A always...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Philip Marino wrote:
> I don't see how you could do that with any splined-shaft motor ( especially
> a metric-dimensioned spline).
There is currently an "off the shelf" adapter available:
http://www.metricmind.com/shaft.htm
Using that, I can then use a "traditional" adapter kit to mount the
motor to my transmission:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
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When you replace the original ICE drive's engine braking with at least
regenerative or dynamic release braking, it makes all the difference in the
world.
I'd have to agree here. With the regen braking in the Prizm, the car
stops very very well. With only the main brakes it will still stop, but
it feels a lot more "heavy". I've driven a few other conversions, and
they feel more heavy on the brakes.
Everyone who has driven my Prizm thinks it drives like a "normal" car.
It does the things you would expect (the regen is even tapered on decel
to give you that "engine breaking" feeling going downhill) and it feels
like a very smooth automatic. Add the power steering, low voltage cutout
and AC and anyone can drive it.
Chris
I realize that my opinion in this matter isn't universal, but I don't think
that series motors are really the ideal choice for a road EV. It's partly
because regen is so difficult with them, and partly because of the way their
torque curve works. I think that a Sep-Ex DC or induction AC motor (with
the right controller and regen) produces significantly better driveability.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Charles and Mark,
I have a VW New Beetle with Simovert controller with integrated DC-DC. The
car has all the regular VW stereo, lights, and wipers, plus a 12V MR2
electric power steering pump, a 12V MES vacuum pump and a 12V bosche water
pump. In the past couple of months driving, I have had no problem with the
small 28Ah AGM acc battery being run down. The Simovert controller with
integrated DC-DC seems to be delivering adequate performance.
With just the DC-DC converter on, the battery measures 13.82 volts.
With the headlights, stereo, wipers and ps pump (steering neutral) voltage
drops to 13.71 volts
As above, with steering fully cranked, the lowest is dropped to is 13.57
volts.
Although 13.71 volts (typical) is too low for cycle charging, according to
the manufacturer it is fine for standby charging (13.5-13.8V). Will this
constant voltage (rather than a cycle voltage) spell an early death to the
little AGM accessory battery? I don not think so. It seems to be
adequately charged all the time.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: June 10, 2005 1:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Reliability of Siemens AC Drives?
Hi Mark,
I assume you must have used the Simovert inverter/controller with the
integrated DC-DC. From Victor's website, it looks like the integrated DC-DC
on the Simovert has a max current of 60A continuous and 90A peak (3
minutes), not 30A, although maybe you are using an older version with a 30A
max current. Given your problem of exceeding the max current of the
integrated DC-DC, I guess if you were to do it over again at the present
time, you would likely use the Simotion (which doesn't have an integrated
DC-DC) and then add on a separate DC-DC with an appropriate max current
sufficient to power your loads.
This is something for me to think about. I'm still in the early stages of
my project, in fact still just in the testing phase of our small li-ion test
pack. I haven't spec'd out my DC loads yet, but in addition to the obvious
things like lights, wipers, and radio, they will include: 1) the water
pump(s) for cooling the motor, controller, and charger; 2) at least 4 blower
fans for the battery cooling system (forced air through the battery boxes);
3) the ECU/CDU; and 4) possibly some 12V loads, not sure, if I add on an
air-conditioning system (maybe Sanden). On the other hand, the car doesn't
have power steering or power brakes, so there's no hydraulic pumps to be
powered there.
So I don't know if the 60A max current of the Simovert's integrated DC-DC
will be sufficient or have enough headroom for these loads. I guess it
might be better to go with the Simotion and do a separate DC-DC. Plus I
have to think about powering loads (1), (2), and (3) above during charging
(when I assume the controller is off).
I looked for your car on the EV Album but didn't see anything listed under
your name. But I gather it's a MR2, is that right? I'm curious, which
Siemens motor did you use? The 30kW 5133?
Thanks,
Charles
Mark Farver wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> Mark Farver wrote:
>>
>>> One thing to think about.. the DC/DC only operates when the drive is
>>> turned on. If you have a high amp accessory load (like the MR2 PS
>>> pump) it will drain the 12v battery.. you'll need an auxillary DC/DC
>>> running all the time.
>>
>>
>> Why would you want keep turning a steering wheel in a turned off
>> vehicle??
>
> You don't.
>
> With the ignition on the 15 amp standby load (50+ amps in use) of the
> MR2 power steering pump, plus lights and on a bad day wipers exceeds
> the DC/DC max current (30 amps?) draining the battery. Since the
> DC/DC turns off with the ignition the DC/DC has no time to "catch up"
> and recharge the battery. The 12v battery is always undercharged, and
> dies a premature death. An external battery charger or DC/DC is the only
work around.
>
> Mark
>
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Philippe Borges wrote:
Please don't talk about thundersky batteries safety, they are not EV
batteries at the moment,
Really? How come all these vehicles run?
http://www.metricmind.com/images/liion_veh.gif
maybe one day they will take little more than C/2
without enormous sag and becoming an effective heater.
They can be "safe" because they have only C/2 power capabilty :^(
They are not power batteries, and knowing their properties
you must size your pack accordingly.
If you don't like deep sag, make sure they are large
enough so their C/2 exceed your peak current consumption.
If your peak current is far higher than average, you can:
Use hybrid pack with hi peak power batts
Use ultracaps
Limit your controller input current
Change your driving habits
Warm the cells
Pay more and get right ones for the job.
My LiIons sag like hell, but not because TS batteries are bad.
Because I (unknowingly back then) undersized and overstressed
them, it was my mistake to choose wrong size
(well the choice was based on misleading specs, this is different
story).
If you don't want to do any of these, it is your
decision and your problem, not tundersky's.
I'm just back from Finland where we ran Citroen Berlingo
full of 200Ah cells back and forth in airport (75km round trip).
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2927.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2931.jpg
No problem at all. Why? because Berlingo has jsut
22kW low voltage system and never peaks above 160-170A
This is example of right sizing.
If you'd fit 90Ah cells in such a car based on the fact that
capacity is enough to cover your range and claimed 3C
is below your peak, the pack would sag badly, and this would
be *your* fault for such a decision.
i'm still trying to make a "secure" big lipoly pack assembly with lots of
kiss electronic and will even try to make my cell fabrication test BUT
lithium need more R&D to became an EV battery.
Loos like you're energetic guy. Good luck and tell is
when you will succeed.
Philippe
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Philip Marino wrote:
With a keyed shaft motor ( like the ADCs) , someone with limited
machining skills ( like me) and with access to a working mill and lathe
can make a very serviceable adapter for only the cost of the materials.
I hear you Phil, but you're describing *your* limitations.
AS I said, splines are more difficult than keyed shaft, no doubt.
It jsu one more challenge in hundreds for building an EV.
Unfortunately this is all I can get for given power.
If you have limited skills, pay more and get keyed Siemens
motor: http://www.metricmind.com/images/5135shaft.jpg -
no different than ADC motors.
Or pre-made adapter: http://www.metricmind.com/images/hub1.jpg
I don't see a show stopper here.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Hello to All,
Well, the pieces to this year's Zombie puzzle are all falling into place it
seems. Barring
any unexpected setbacks, the latest version of White Zombie should be at the
track in the
next two to three weeks. It should weigh about 2250 lbs. and with 336V of 29
ahr Hawker
Aerobatteries, it will make some serious hp. My guess, is that at the
switch-over to hyper
speed, the sagged pack will give about 364 kw of power or about 488 hp of
electrical
energy! The new Siamese 8 motor should make 300 hp with this kind of power
input. The
Aerobatteries are a version of the military spec Hawkers and are a cut above
the already
stout regular Hawkers. The models I'm using are rated at 29 ahrs c20 and 26
ahrs c6, weigh
24 lbs. each, and can make as high as 2400 amps in the short circuit test. I
expect that
sagged down to 6.5V per module, they'll make 2000+ amps stressed under my right
foot! The
28 module pack for White Zombie will weigh 672 lbs., a healthy drop of 288 lbs.
compared
to the 288V stack of Orbitals that were in the car, and 128 lbs. less than the
240V
Orbital powered version that ran the 12.99 @ 101 mph run. Minus weight shaved
in other
areas, this latest 336V version will weigh about 200 lbs. less over the 240V
version.
I was in between service calls when my personal cell phone range...it was my
friend Adam
at Aerobatteries, L. P. in Texas telling me that Yellow Freight had notified
them my 30
brand new Aerobatteries were at their warehouse in Portland and that they were
planning on
a Sunday drop-off of the batteries at my house. Can you say 'excited'? I was
about 5 miles
from the warehouse at the time of the call, and, was even heading that
direction on the
way back to the shop. A quick call to Jenny at Yellow Freight confirmed the
arrival of my
batteries, and she told me it was absolutely no problem for me to stop by and
pick them
up.
I got to Yellow Freight, checked in at the security guard shack, then proceeded
to the
customer will call warehouse. It was all so easy. After checking in at the desk
and
signing off on paperwork, they told me to wait by my service truck as the
forklift driver
would bring the pallet out to me...cool. The next thing that happened, is one
of those
weirdo coincidences that often find their way into my Wayland adventure stories
:-) Tell
me, what are the odds of this....here comes one of perhaps 30 forklift drivers
at the huge
yellow freight complex I'm at, wearing a Hawker Odyssey hat! As Pat and his
Toyota
forklift approached my service truck, he says to me, "Hey, you're not the usual
guy that
picks up his Hawkers here...what are you going to do with 30 of these super
batteries?"
Seems Pat was well versed in all things 'Hawker'. We had a great conversation
about the
incredibly powerful Hawkers, EVs, EV drag racing car audio....you know, all the
things
Plasma Boy gets pumped up over. I left with my new bunch of Hawkers still
grinning over
the forklift guy wearing a Hawker hat.
I want to thank Aerobatteries L. P. and Hawker for their support of my EV
racing.
Recently,
there was some discussion about where one could buy quality EV batteries over
the internet
and such. Aerobatteries L. P. in Tyler, Texas is a Hawker Odyssey dealer that
offers free
shipping. They are very good people that will treat you fairly. They can be
reached at
(903) 592-2176, and found on the internet at <http://aerobatteries.com/>
See Ya...John Wayland
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There are some other issues to think about if you wanted to
have a contactor between the capacitors and the rest
of the parts in a controller, besides inductance problems.
When you wire the controller in, you'll get a **huge**
fat spark when you make that last connection, completing
the circuit that charges the caps from the battery pack,
unless you precharge them first with a resistor. Not nice.
Also, electrolytic capacitors have a finite lifetime.
The closer you run them to their maximum voltage rating,
the quicker they will eventually fail.
If you leave them connected all the time, they have voltage
on them all day long, 24 hrs/day 7 days/week.
Net result, they will fail sooner, or the designer has to be
more conservative and fit more/better caps. This means
a more expensive controller.
Lastly, charged capacitors of the size needed inside
a decent controller hold a significant amount of energy.
At EV voltage levels, this much energy can easily kill
someone, or at least throw them across the garage.
Admittedly, the batteries themselves hold a lot more energy,
but there's not much point in making the pack any more dangerous
than it already might be!
I suspect the real reasons contactors aren't built into controllers
between the caps and the rest, is a combination of the
difficulty of keeping stray inductance under control, plus
the small numbers that would be built mean it's just not worth making
the custom parts for a special contactor, that then needs to be safety
tested as well. You would want the designers to test that custom contactor,
especially since it might just save your life.... wouldn't you?
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
> When you replace the original ICE drive's engine braking with at least
> regenerative or dynamic release braking, it makes all the difference in
the
> world.
I'd have to agree here. With the regen braking in the Prizm, the car
stops very very well. With only the main brakes it will still stop, but
it feels a lot more "heavy". I've driven a few other conversions, and
they feel more heavy on the brakes.
Everyone who has driven my Prizm thinks it drives like a "normal" car.
It does the things you would expect (the regen is even tapered on decel
to give you that "engine breaking" feeling going downhill) and it feels
like a very smooth automatic. Add the power steering, low voltage cutout
and AC and anyone can drive it.
Chris
The discussion began with the premise that regeneration during deceleration
was effectively recharging the batteries. It has evolved into the need to
use the motors as brakes. Perhaps the term 'motor braking' would be more
accurate because it is braking that we want. Capturing electrical discharge
kWh power is not primary.
An analogy to press my point; "sliding glass doors".
I was in the business of repairing "rolling glass doors". When their
wheels seized, the homeowner used WD-40 on the tracks, converting the
"rolling glass doors" into "sliding glass doors". I would explain that
railroads never lubricate the tracks because the trains "roll" on them.
They got the picture.
BoyntonStu
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