EV Digest 4435
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Link10 RS232
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) An EVentful Weekend (long & nontechnical)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Weekend at Waylands part2
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Weekend at Waylands part2
by Travis Raybold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Weekend at Waylands part2
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Power of DC Race results
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: An EVentful Weekend (long & nontechnical)
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by "Stu and Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Pond master 700 GPM....
Fountain pump... 200 watts, can be left in the water for ever... GOT one for
my Zilla and PFC40L.
Use a small 400 watt inverter from the 12 volts supply.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Brehm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV LIST" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:40 PM
Subject: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
> Hi everyone, Tim here.
>
> It's been a very busy few months with all the Wayland last minute
> EV projects. I have
> spent almost every free minute at the Wayland EV workshop trying to
> help get these EVs
> back on the road, track, and garden? Last weekend I worked mainly on
> the Heavy Metal
> Garden Tractor. We replaced very tired Blue Tops with 6 new Exide
> Orbitals. After some
> battery tray modifications and new cables the tractor was ready for the
> garden (for the
> tunes of course). Once again, our attention was focused back to White
> Zombie. We set the
> new Siamese 8 motor housing into the very empty looking engine bay.
> WOW, this is going to
> be allot easier than we both thought! The motor is about eight inches
> shorter counting the
> shaft that used to stick out the front. The Siamese 8 fit perfect! No
> more tilting the
> output shaft toward the ground due to clearance issues. After some
> measurements and some
> quick sketches, it was off to the metal shop. We loaded up Blue Meanie
> with a few tools
> and an extension cord to top off the tired pack of Yellow Tops when we
> arrived.
>
> John had me back the Blue Meanie out the driveway while he went to
> get the camera.
> When John returned I handed him the keys and he gave them back . "You
> drive" he said. I
> have driven this car many times, but I'm not going to turn down this
> offer. I love driving
> this zippy little car.
>
> We arrived at the metal shop where Marko was working on a custom
> stainless steel
> console for Fiamp (this man does amazing metal work). We showed him the
> sketches and
> measurements, and between the three of us the motor mounts were done in
> no time. After
> lunch and other trips here and there, it was back to the EV workshop. I
> drove the Blue
> Meanie every trip, However, without the E meters (John's still working
> on his rewire of
> the car, thus they aren't connected right now) and with five year old
> batteries, I was
> instructed to take it "kind of easy" from Wayland. This is not the way
> I normally drive, I
> rarely go too far over the speed limit, but I like to get to the limit
> very fast and the
> Blue Meanie gets there pretty fast.
>
> We arrived back at the workshop, and set the motor mounts in
> place. The new motor
> mounts fit perfect. We marked the holes, drilled four mounting holes in
> the Siamese 8
> housing to bolt up the motor mounts. Everything is working out
> perfectly. We sent the
> motor back to Jim at the motor shop for the final preparation and mods
> before the assembly of the motor.
>
> It's Saturday now, and once again I find myself at the Wayland lab.
> However, this is a
> very exiting day. Finally, the completion of the Siamese 8. Jim was on
> his way from
> Redmond with the motor and all the pieces for the motor and the
> Dutchman was also on his
> way to press the armatures on bearings onto the custom motor shaft. Jim
> arrived in a brand
> new Dodge 1500 with the 4.7 liter magnum V8. After a little crap from
> Wayland, Jim
> justified himself by explaining he got a very good deal and he needs
> the power for the
> long trip over Mt. Hood with a load of motors in the back. Soon after,
> The Dutchman
> arrived and after watching a few EV videos of electric cars melting
> tires and doing
> wheelstands, we headed to The Dutchman's shop. He is the only one of us
> with a big enough
> press to install the armatures onto the extra long shaft. We had a
> regular convoy, with
> The Dutchman leading, me driving Jim's new truck, and Wayland in the
> back taking Jim for
> his first ride in an EV (I'm sure Jim will write his own post about his
> experience). We
> arrived at The Dutchman's shop where John quickly realized he forgot
> his camera. It's
> important to have a digital image record of all this cool motor stuff.
> Jim and The Dutcman
> stayed at the shop to continue while Wayland and I went back to the
> Wayland home (me
> driving Blue Meanie) to pick up the camera and top off the batteries
> with the wonderful
> PFC 20. Back at the EV lab and with the car plugged in, we decided to
> unload the new
> pallet load of Hawker Aerobatteries sitting on the floor to allow more
> charge time. With a
> fully charged pack it was time to go back to the shop. Once again, John
> threw me the keys,
> but this time he said "have fun" instead of "take it easy". The Blue
> Meanie is always fun,
> but with the batteries now warmed up and cycled a bit, we knew we had
> plenty of power to
> get there and back easily.
>
> We backed out the driveway and turned onto Glisan with a little
> tire squealing, well,
> maybe allot. Silently cruising down Glisan I looked to my right and saw
> a brand new
> Maserati in the lane next to us. "Hey John look next to us ", I said.
> John's eyes lit up,
> and before I could say another word, John said, "Do it!". We were going
> fairly slow to get
> the driver to look at the little blue Datsun. Still in second gear I
> let off the
> accelerator a little to get a lot of room between us and the cars
> ahead. I hit the
> accelerator and shot past the Maserati, hit third gear and stabbed the
> accelerator again.
> Blue Meanie went sideways, then quickly straightened out and took off.
> I sure hope the
> Maserati driver saw the electric emblem on the back!
>
> We arrived back at the shop where The Dutchman and Jim were done
> pressing on one of the
> armatures and were pressing the fan sleeve, fan, and center bearing.
> After all the parts
> were on the shaft, it was time to leave the shop. Again John said "Hey
> Tim, drive Blue
> Meanie, Jim and I will follow you because I want to get some pictures
> of the car on the
> road". The light turned green to get onto the freeway (from my past
> experiences in this
> car I know it loves the freeway). I think Jim knew he was in trouble
> here as the Blue
> Meanie just kept pulling hard through all the gears (thanks to that new
> Z1k) they were
> just getting smaller and smaller in the mirror. I let off to let John
> have a chance to get
> picture, then stepped on it again, still in high gear. The car took off
> again, at very
> unreasonable speeds! They became a spec in the mirror, but then it
> happened!!! The car
> lost power. I was thinking "OH S#%T" I killed the Blue Meanie!!
>
> (Otmar you shouldn't read this part)
>
> I let the car coast (still at a good speed) until they caught me.
> We made our way to
> the shoulder. I was still sitting in the driver seat when John came
> running up with a
> concerned look on his face "What happened?" he asked. I explained "I
> don't know. I was
> going really fast then I lost power, maybe a fuse?" Then, I turned the
> key off and
> recycled it, and I had power again. Oh yeah! Thermal shut down. John
> forgot to tell me the
> Zilla has not gotten its cooling system yet. Surprisingly, John was
> happy and proud of me
> for actually driving his car to the point of thermal shutdown. I drove
> the car the rest of
> the way to the EV lab with no problems. Perhaps another item on the EV
> to do list next weekend is a Zilla cooling system......
>
>
> TIM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Make Yahoo! your home page
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
427 VDC is Ot's max limit.
My PFC chargers are tested to 450 VDC. They Overvoltage shut down above
that..
Otmar has much the same thing inside his Zillas.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:56 AM
Subject: Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
>
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> > 1000 amps of Zilla power in a 2340 lb. car is fun stuff, indeed. 2000
amps jammed into
> > that Big Yellow Beast of motor Jim put together, in a minitruck fed from
29 Exide Orbitals
> > at 348V, ought to be enough to keep Tim busy and wipe that silly EV grin
off his
> > face...well, maybe not.
> >
>
> Hello John,
> I'm sure you guys all thought of this, but aren't you going to have
> around 410v on the batteries at around maximum charge?
> Exactly how high of a voltage can a Z2k take?
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:31 AM -0700 6/14/05, Rich Rudman wrote:
427 VDC is Ot's max limit.
My PFC chargers are tested to 450 VDC. They Overvoltage shut down above
that..
Otmar has much the same thing inside his Zillas.
Mostly true.
The EHV Zilla is OK to turn on at 450V, it just won't go anywhere
fast until the voltage is under 400V. If you turn it on at over 450V
damage can result.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Connect a dual color LED from pin 3 to pin 5.
> If the LED flickers every second, it means the data is flowing.
> If the LED comes on steady, it means the driver is connected but
> the data is not coming out.
Good summary, and a quick test method!
> If the LED does not come on, my documentation might be wrong and
> you should run the same test from pin 2 to pin 5.
Nope; you're right. Pins 3 and 5 are correct.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Listers and Lurkers,
Here's an EV Travelogue from this past weekend, so proceed at your leisure- if
interested....
I just concluded a very EVentful weekend, beginning with the Friday delivery of
400 nicad cells to John Lussmyer on Whidbey Island. The attractive log home
holds a Cougar habitat that's bigger than my first apartment, and is home to a
70 lb purring kitten that I would've been happy to pet, if she hadn't been
contentedly crunching on a chicken carcass at the moment!.... On to the EV
shop. Cougar John's place is equipped with an arch-style building that could
hold his entire fleet, and besides all the usual electrical paraphernalia, he's
got a WWII vintage aircraft engine hoist that's perfect for straddling and
lifting just about any vehicle EVer made, with it's 20-ton capacity chain hoist
and elegantly simple wishbone design. From the looks of things, Cougar should
be able to show off a nicad-powered Sparrow in no time! ;-)
We then rolled my much-relieved Ranger onward to Vancouver, BC for a rendezvous
with Al Godfrey. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Al,
he's the sort of gentleman that anyone would've loved to have as a grandfather
or neighbor. From the open, yet cozy contemporary home of stone and timber
overlooking the Fraser River valley that he and his wife Esther built with
their own hands, to the remote-control ElecTrak that quietly grooms the lawn,
the Godfrey estate oozes tranquility, until one glimpses the sinfully silver
Porsche 928 lurking in the garage out back. This immaculate car would fit in
at any Porsche Concours, but the craftsmanship, fit and finish on his EV
conversion would also be the envy of any amphead. Of course, vehicular hygiene
is helped a bit by the sano Siemens A/C setup from Victor and TWENTY-SIX sealed
Optima blue top batteries that were so skillfully secreted away in the dark
recesses of the 928, but juxtaposed against the three de!
cades worth of groovy EV gizmos filling that old garage, the 928 looks more
like it's emerging from the lair of a mad scientist than the humble workshop of
a retired engineer.
Unfortunately, some erratic battery behavior has the Porsche on a stress-free
diet, and we were unable to unleash it's horses, but my EV Grin quickly
reappeared with the arrival of Al's buddy from the boonies, Alan Cumberlidge,
who stopped by in his handbuilt Plymouth Horizon for a battery boost before
Saturday's show. Seeing as how an overnight charge was forthcoming, we took a
spirited drive around the neighborhood, showing that not only will that old
Omni beat any original 25 year-old econoboxer on the road, but it will do so in
silence, powered by an early "before they put the squeal in" Curtis controller.
Saturday brought showers to Vancouver, but it didn't dampen the spirits of REV!
participants, who put on a good showing despite the flukey weather. What
really makes this show a standout, (besides the rides in an immaculate 1912
Detroit Electric!) is the involvement at all levels of the hobby. Electrathon
racing continued in a seemingly endless cycle of circles on the short track
(the winners completed 120+ laps!), while electric bicycle, scooter, and board
buyers got test rides till all comers were satisfied. Rich Rudman was there
manning the charge trailer, but the Madman was a little jumpy amidst all the
liquid humidity, hopping every time somebody clapped their hands or slammed a
door with a quick "WHAT POPPED!" He did get to blow off some steam by showing
that Goldie brought more to the show than just a pretty face, by laying rubber
all over the nice and clean electrathon track during an impromptu all-EV
parade.
After Saturday's excitement and a yawn-inducing trek home, Sunday brought an
old friend into town. Tom is a professor of Aeronautical Engineering and a
test pilot at Mississippi State University, and though I had been telling him
about this stuff for years, there's nothing like a visit to the Wayland Juice
Bar to create a new EV Grin. We stopped by John's place just in time to see
the Yellow Monster unveiled. It truly was amazing to see the handiwork that
turned a junk-pile antique forklift motor into the dynamically-timed monster
that will no doubt claim it's place in the NEDRA record books. Jim Husted's
moveable brush rigging operated like it had always been there, and watching
that simple lever make dramatic changes in motor RPM while hooked directly to
the battery without a single contactor, pot, or other controller sure made me
wonder why this trick wasn't standard practice. The Siamese Eights weren't
running yet, but laid out bare in all their copper glory, in bet!
ween a shining Blue Meany and the quiet White Zombie. The "Purple Phaze"
Datsun minitruck project was awaiting it's fate in a corner of the driveway,
rustily oblivious to the racing reincarnation that's coming soon. It was all a
bit much for a newbie to take in, and on the way to our next engagement, Tom
kept shaking his head and saying, "You kept telling me, but some things just
have to be seen"...
Signing off,
Jay Donnaway
Vancouver WA
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" Ghia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
We have had a busy weekend getting the Imp ready for Autocross. Another
victory but everyone has moved their cars out of the D modified class. I
can't imagine why<G>.
Anyway, catching up on email, there are a lot of interesting threads. I
always enjoy fun with math!
BoyntonStu wrote:
<<< IMHO regen is a waste because there is too little power gained from
braking.
And then gave some numbers to back his assertion:
Let me give you some idea of how much POWER is going into your batteries.
kWh = killoWatt-hour (we capitalize the W to honor Mr. Watt)
Incidentally deca, killo, mega, tera, etc. are multiplier prefixes and are
Roman words.
Centi, milli, micro, etc. are divider prefixes and are Greek.
The kiloWatt-hour is a unit of energy equivalent to one kiloWatt of power
expended for one hour of time.
If you can determine the kWh, you will know how much POWER is going into
your batteries each time you stop.
For example: Let us assume your 10kW figure output is steady all the way
from 60 mph to a stop. How many SECONDS does it take?
I will assume 10 seconds.
10 sec /3,600 sec/hr = 0.002777 hour
10 kW x 0.002777 hour = 0.02777 kWh
If 1 kWh costs 10 cents, you have just recharged your battery $0.00277
Besides the braking gained, was the expense of regeneration worth $0.00277
per 60 mph stop?
Ok. That is interesting but let's try looking at it a little differently.
When you build an EV, you try and put in enough batteries to go whatever you
decide is your max. range. If you can extend your range by regen braking,
you
save the cost (and extra weight) of that battery.
Let's say you are running Optimas. If I remember right they are rated at 50
amp-hrs and deliver about 26 amp-hrs at high draws. So each battery contains
between 50 amp-hrs times 12 volts and 26 amp-hrs times 12 volts = .600 kWhs
and .312 kWhs. That means each time you regen you produce somewhere between
.02777/.600 and .02777/.312 = 4.6% to 8.9% of the kWhs in one Optima
battery.
Assuming $100 cost per cell, each time you regen brake you are saving
between
$4.60 to $8.90 US dollars.
Of course, if you are running Kokam Lithium Polymers like us at the retail
price of
$1,400 per kWh, you save $38.88 every time you hit that pedal!
Now this is money saved, not money earned. So no getting rich regenning<G>.
The limit to this calculation is that for one trip the saving are cumulative
i.e. you regen 10 times you save $46-$89, you regen 100 times, you save
$460-$890, but only for your best trip i.e. you don't get to add on $890 in
savings each time you go out.
This limitation also applies to BoyntonStu's calculations from the other
side. In his example he points out that you are only saving 1/4 of a penny
each time you regen. Keep in mind that every time you regen, for as long as
you own the EV and the regen works, you will save another 1/4 of a penny.
Let's try a example.
Let's say your range is 30 miles, you are running Optimas and you brake 36
times during that trip.
(This is an estimate based on 12 stops on my last 10 mile trip). And let's
say you keep the car for 50,000 miles.
50,000 miles divided by 30 mile trips = 1,667 trips times 36 stops = 60,000
regen stops times $.00277 = $166.20
Plus
36 times $4.60 to $8.90 = $165.60-$320.40 savings in batteries (and the
weight of 2-4 more batteries @ 46 lbs each)
Plus
If your Optimas are good for 500 cycles, you will have bought batteries 3
times so $165.60-$320.40 times 3 = $496.80-$961.20.
So dollar total is $166.20 plus $496.80-$961.20 = $663-$1,127.40 total.
For this example, you will save money by adding regen if your regen system
costs somewhere less than $663-$1,127.
This is a rough estimate for this example. I am ignoring amortization of the
cost of the regen system, the savings of wear on the brake system, the
better feel of the extra brake force on the heavier EV, the possible
perking-up effect that regen is reported to give lead acid batteries.
IMESHO<G> Whether regen is financially wise depends mainly on cost of the
regen system, driving style, cost of batteries and how long you plan to keep
the EV.
If you are doing Tour de Sol, or drag racing, or your driving does not
require much use of brakes then regen might not make sense. If you are doing
road racing or lots of hard stop and go driving, regen makes a lot of sense.
In between those extremes... you fudge the calculations and do what ever you
will enjoy the most.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi_torque_electric wrote:
> prototype quad-pedaled bicycle
A four person bike? What exactly was it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i believe he means a prototype quad (4 wheeled) pedaled bicycle.
--travis
Ryan Stotts wrote:
hi_torque_electric wrote:
prototype quad-pedaled bicycle
A four person bike? What exactly was it?
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> PFC40L.
I'm interested in that. Do you have any news or info to report on it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, the bike has 3 wheels, but 4 PEDALS, one for each foot and one for each
hand. The rider pedals with feet and hands simultaneously.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Raybold
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Weekend at Waylands part2
i believe he means a prototype quad (4 wheeled) pedaled bicycle.
--travis
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>hi_torque_electric wrote:
>
>
>
>>prototype quad-pedaled bicycle
>>
>>
>
>
>A four person bike? What exactly was it?
>
>
>.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are doing
road racing or lots of hard stop and go driving, regen makes a lot of sense.
In between those extremes... you fudge the calculations and do what ever you
will enjoy the most.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Cliff,
I am for motor braking. The assumptions used in the 0.0027/stop
Was that you are going 60mph, you stop in 10 seconds, and you recharge at
the given rate continuously down to zero.
I am positive that the figure is most inflated.
Whatever the $ gain, motor braking is worthwhile.
I am attempting to be accurate in calculating recharge.
A trial would help.
Turn off recharge. Go as far as you can until a certain voltage.
Recharge your batteries. Go out again with recharge and record the distance
gained.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are the final results for the 2005 NEDRA Power of DC race at the Mason
Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown Maryland June 11.
NEDRA RECORDS (unofficial)
MP/A - BYU EV-1, 400 volts (Perry Carter); 14.080, 91.21 mph
HS/A - Great Mills High School "Green Hornet' MR2, 252 volts (Larry Jarboe);
15.938, 86.55 mph
HS/B - Miramar High School Porsche 944, 240 volts (Lowell Simmons); 16.258,
62.94 mph
SC/G - Nash Electropolitan, 96 volts (Lori Lawless); 14.324, 41.75 mph
SP/D - Corbin Sparrow, 156 volts (Valerie Myers); 19.182, 71.83 mph
AWARDS (1st $200, 2nd $150, 3rd $100)
1st Place High Voltage: Orange Juice driven by Mark Moore
2nd Place High Voltage: BYU EV-1 driven by Perry Carter
3rd Place High Voltage: VW Truck driven by Bob Salem
1st Place Low Voltage: Sparrow driven by Valerie Myers
2nd Place Low Voltage: Ford Escort driven by Chip Gribben
3rd Place Low Voltage: Nash Electropolitan driven by Lori Salem
1st Place Motorcycle: Pirahna riden by Darin Gilbert
2nd Place Motorcycle: Cyclone riden by Matt Graham
3rd Place Motorcycle: Old Blue riden by Shawn Lawless
1/8 MILE TIMES (96 volts and less)
MT/I - Pirahna, 48 volts (Darin Gilbert); 10.120, 62.87 mph
MT/I - Cyclone, 48 volts (Matt Graham); 11.422, 52.74 mph
SC/G - Nash Electropolitan, 96 volts (Lori Lawless); 14.324, 41.75 mph
MT/I - Old Blue, 48 volts (Shawn Lawless); 15.979, 43.62 mph
MT/J - EV Warrior, 24 volts (Doc Kennedy); 30.854
MT/I - Titling Trike, 48 volts (Phil Foss); N/A, N/A
1/4 MILE TIMES
DR/A - Orange Juice, 240 volts (Mark Moore); 11.98, 108.97 mph
MP/A - BYU EV-1, 400 volts (Perry Carter); 14.080, 91.21 mph
SC/B - VW Truck, 240 volts (Bob Salem); 14.946, 90.44 mph
HS/A - "Green Hornet' MR2, 252 volts (Larry Jarboe); 15.938, 86.55 mph
DR/A - West Virginia Formula Lightning (Roy Nutter); 21.180, 72.53 mph
SP/D - Corbin Sparrow, 156 volts (Valerie Myers); 19.182, 71.83 mph
SC/D - "Wattson" Ford Escort, 156 volts (Chip Gribben); 20.242, 64.98 mph
HS/B - Miramar Porsche 944, 240 volts (Lowell Simmons); 16.258, 63.94mph
SP/A - GM Chevy S-10, 312 volts (Charlie Garlow); 21.01, 63.09 mph
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Power of DC
http://www.poweofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu and Jan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am attempting to be accurate in calculating recharge.
>
> A trial would help.
>
> Turn off recharge. Go as far as you can until a certain voltage.
>
> Recharge your batteries. Go out again with recharge and
> record the distance gained.
Not quite sure what you are looking for here.
If you are looking to be accurate in calculating recharge then there is
no need to drive as far as you can or to turn off recharge or to record
distance 'gained'.
Victor has already given almost all the info you need to accurately
calculate the recharge savings associated with the use of regen, for his
particular system and driving style over a specific route.
Specifically, he has told you that on his commute to work he removed
8.71Ah from the pack and returned 1.73Ah through the use of regen.
Obviously, the 1.73Ah returned by regen is 1.73Ah less that has to be
returned during charging from the grid. To translate this into $ all we
need is for Victor to provide the kWh removed from the pack and returned
to the pack via regen.
Take the kWh returned via regen and multiply by the rate you pay your
utility and multiply by about 1.18 to account for charger efficiency of
about 85% (typical ballpark #). This gives you a *worst case* value
since it doesn't take into account the <100% charging efficiency of the
battery chemistry itself (i.e. the actual electricity cost would be
higher than this estimate since it would take more energy from the wall
to deliver the required kWh to the battery than we are estimating).
As a ballpark estimate (while waiting for Victor to provide kWh values
or at least the average pack voltage during discharge/regen so kWh
estimates can be made), assume Victor's pack is about 300V: 1.73Ah *
300V = 519Wh (approx) returned via regen. At about $0.06/kWh, this is a
minimum of $0.037 savings in electricity cost for this trip.
Looking at it another way, it seems Victor's values indicate that
without regen he would have removed 8.71Ah + 1.73Ah from the pack, for
10.44Ah total needing to be returned from the grid. Therefore, the use
of regen has reduced the amount of grid electricity he needs by
1.73/10.44 = 16.6%, and therefore has reduced his cost of recharging by
16.6%.
So, while less than 4 cents savings on a single trip may not sound
significant, it does still represent over 16% savings in recharge costs,
which is significant.
FWIW, I think you are wasting your time looking for people to do
experiments and provide you numbers so that you can come up with
"accurate" quantification of the value/benefit of regen braking. The
reason that David quoted a range of something like 5-20% increase in
range associated with the use of regen is that it varies widely
depending on the particular vehicle, drivetrain (especially AC vs sep-ex
DC vs series DC), driving style (do you anticipate stops and coast or
not), and terrain/route being driven.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am seeing about a 5% gain in regen - but I currently only use it fixed at
20Amps. Since regen either comes with a system or does not, I do not see
much use in arguing for it or against it. There are many more reasons than
just regen for purchasing a Siemens system.
Also, I do not see much value in an "accurate" test, as regen varies greatly
with route, driver and conditions. The trials that Cliff and Victor have
cited are for their cars, their routes (or race courses), their style of
driving - too many variables to enumerate.
Stu, what type of a system do you run now? Are you planning on getting a
system with regen?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu and Jan
Sent: June 14, 2005 1:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
Cliff,
I am for motor braking. The assumptions used in the 0.0027/stop Was that
you are going 60mph, you stop in 10 seconds, and you recharge at the given
rate continuously down to zero.
I am positive that the figure is most inflated.
Whatever the $ gain, motor braking is worthwhile.
I am attempting to be accurate in calculating recharge.
A trial would help.
Turn off recharge. Go as far as you can until a certain voltage.
Recharge your batteries. Go out again with recharge and record the distance
gained.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It works AOK with the null modem cable. Now for the next problem:
it works fine when nothing else is on,
it works fine when in start position (PS Pump and Vacuum pump going)
is works fine when contactors engaged (Siemens AC system)
However, when the forward or reverse switch is pressed to drive or reverse,
the data become garbled. Each time I switch back to "neutral", the text
becomes legible again.
Noise? Should I put tin foil on my head?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: June 13, 2005 10:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link10 RS232
Connect a dual color LED from pin 3 to pin 5.
If the LED flickers every second, it means the data is flowing.
If the LED comes on steady, it means the driver is connected but the data is
not coming out.
If the LED does not come on, my documentation might be wrong and you should
run the same test from pin 2 to pin 5.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:19 PM
Subject: Link10 RS232
> I just tried my Link10 with RS232, however no data is coming from the
meter.
> I have tried with two different laptops. Looking in the manual it does not
> appear that I have to set any special parameters to turn it on.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> thanks
>
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <outbind://41/www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dumb newby question time: Can you move the brushes (timing) so far that the
motor does not operate or smoke? If so, could you use the timing stick as a
controller?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:19 PM
Subject: An EVentful Weekend (long & nontechnical)
Hello Listers and Lurkers,
Here's an EV Travelogue from this past weekend, so proceed at your
leisure- if interested....
I just concluded a very EVentful weekend, beginning with the Friday
delivery of 400 nicad cells to John Lussmyer on Whidbey Island. The
attractive log home holds a Cougar habitat that's bigger than my first
apartment, and is home to a 70 lb purring kitten that I would've been
happy to pet, if she hadn't been contentedly crunching on a chicken
carcass at the moment!.... On to the EV shop. Cougar John's place is
equipped with an arch-style building that could hold his entire fleet, and
besides all the usual electrical paraphernalia, he's got a WWII vintage
aircraft engine hoist that's perfect for straddling and lifting just about
any vehicle EVer made, with it's 20-ton capacity chain hoist and elegantly
simple wishbone design. From the looks of things, Cougar should be able
to show off a nicad-powered Sparrow in no time! ;-)
We then rolled my much-relieved Ranger onward to Vancouver, BC for a
rendezvous with Al Godfrey. For those of you who haven't had the pleasure
of meeting Al, he's the sort of gentleman that anyone would've loved to
have as a grandfather or neighbor. From the open, yet cozy contemporary
home of stone and timber overlooking the Fraser River valley that he and
his wife Esther built with their own hands, to the remote-control ElecTrak
that quietly grooms the lawn, the Godfrey estate oozes tranquility, until
one glimpses the sinfully silver Porsche 928 lurking in the garage out
back. This immaculate car would fit in at any Porsche Concours, but the
craftsmanship, fit and finish on his EV conversion would also be the envy
of any amphead. Of course, vehicular hygiene is helped a bit by the sano
Siemens A/C setup from Victor and TWENTY-SIX sealed Optima blue top
batteries that were so skillfully secreted away in the dark recesses of
the 928, but juxtaposed against the three de!
cades worth of groovy EV gizmos filling that old garage, the 928 looks
more like it's emerging from the lair of a mad scientist than the humble
workshop of a retired engineer.
Unfortunately, some erratic battery behavior has the Porsche on a
stress-free diet, and we were unable to unleash it's horses, but my EV
Grin quickly reappeared with the arrival of Al's buddy from the boonies,
Alan Cumberlidge, who stopped by in his handbuilt Plymouth Horizon for a
battery boost before Saturday's show. Seeing as how an overnight charge
was forthcoming, we took a spirited drive around the neighborhood, showing
that not only will that old Omni beat any original 25 year-old econoboxer
on the road, but it will do so in silence, powered by an early "before
they put the squeal in" Curtis controller.
Saturday brought showers to Vancouver, but it didn't dampen the spirits of
REV! participants, who put on a good showing despite the flukey weather.
What really makes this show a standout, (besides the rides in an
immaculate 1912 Detroit Electric!) is the involvement at all levels of the
hobby. Electrathon racing continued in a seemingly endless cycle of
circles on the short track (the winners completed 120+ laps!), while
electric bicycle, scooter, and board buyers got test rides till all comers
were satisfied. Rich Rudman was there manning the charge trailer, but the
Madman was a little jumpy amidst all the liquid humidity, hopping every
time somebody clapped their hands or slammed a door with a quick "WHAT
POPPED!" He did get to blow off some steam by showing that Goldie
brought more to the show than just a pretty face, by laying rubber all
over the nice and clean electrathon track during an impromptu all-EV
parade.
After Saturday's excitement and a yawn-inducing trek home, Sunday brought
an old friend into town. Tom is a professor of Aeronautical Engineering
and a test pilot at Mississippi State University, and though I had been
telling him about this stuff for years, there's nothing like a visit to
the Wayland Juice Bar to create a new EV Grin. We stopped by John's place
just in time to see the Yellow Monster unveiled. It truly was amazing to
see the handiwork that turned a junk-pile antique forklift motor into the
dynamically-timed monster that will no doubt claim it's place in the NEDRA
record books. Jim Husted's moveable brush rigging operated like it had
always been there, and watching that simple lever make dramatic changes in
motor RPM while hooked directly to the battery without a single contactor,
pot, or other controller sure made me wonder why this trick wasn't
standard practice. The Siamese Eights weren't running yet, but laid out
bare in all their copper glory, in bet!
ween a shining Blue Meany and the quiet White Zombie. The "Purple Phaze"
Datsun minitruck project was awaiting it's fate in a corner of the
driveway, rustily oblivious to the racing reincarnation that's coming
soon. It was all a bit much for a newbie to take in, and on the way to
our next engagement, Tom kept shaking his head and saying, "You kept
telling me, but some things just have to be seen"...
Signing off,
Jay Donnaway
Vancouver WA
1971 "Karmann Eclectric" Ghia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Let's go over your figures.
8.71 Ah out of batteries.
Let's assume for a moment 100Volts battery.
Let's also assume an hour of driving.
Your trip consumed 8.71 Ah x 100 Volts = 871 Watt-hrs.
>From Tom Shay:
"My Ranger pickup conversion and other similar trucks used about 500
watt-hours per mile. General Motor's EV-1 used about 200. The Corbin
Sparrow needs about 150."
Did you go more than 3 miles on your 8.71Ah trip?
What is the voltage of your battery pack?
If your batteries are 100V your EV goes a mile on less than 300 Watt-hours.
Now for your statement:
"8.71Ah out of battery, 1.73A in the battery, normal city driving."
You stated 1.73A into the battery. Not 1.73 Ah into the battery.
Did you ride generate 1.73A for the entire hour?
These figures are very confusing. They must be understood for exactly what
they are quantitatively.
Are we getting closer?
Stu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
Stu, David is absolutely right in his estimations.
I drove today to work and noticed my numbers:
8.71Ah out of battery, 1.73A in the battery, normal city driving.
This is 1.73/8.71 = 19.8% surprising record so far. Probably
because my home is at higher elevation than work place, but
the fact remains I gained about 20% of energy back.
This will be the case *for this route* regardless of my
total battery capacity, so don't ask for it (for the
record, it is 70 usable Ah). Important is I gain 1Ah per
each 5Ah spent.
Victor
Stu and Jan wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
>
> On 13 Jun 2005 at 15:16, Stu and Jan wrote:
>
>
>>Divide 13Ah by XAh and that will be the decimal fraction of your gain in
>>range.
>
>
> Sigh. OK, one more time.
>
> "Practically speaking, the range improvement from using regeneration is
> anywhere from 5 to 20 percent, "
>
> You have made up your mind by throwing out these figures. 20% is an
> emotional response, not a factual response.
>
> Instead of sighing, please indicate the Ah capacity of your EV.
>
> My mind is not made up about using the motor in reverse for braking. I am
> for it 100%.
>
> I just want the facts on the percentages of regeneration.
>
> 13Ah divided by what?
>
> BoyntonStu
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nit picking...:-)
Stu and Jan wrote:
Victor,
Let's go over your figures.
OK, last time
8.71 Ah out of batteries.
Yes
Let's assume for a moment 100Volts battery.
Don't assume things, this is how you get wrong conclusion.
My pack is 345V nominal.
Let's also assume an hour of driving.
Fine
Your trip consumed 8.71 Ah x 100 Volts = 871 Watt-hrs.
No, actual voltage was around 280V average since it sags
down to 220V (cold batts, few bad cells) and rise up to 340V.
So my vehicle consumed (without regen) approx. 8.71*280=2.43kWh.
This took actually 25 min, not an hour, about 11 miles trip.
From Tom Shay:
"My Ranger pickup conversion and other similar trucks used about 500
watt-hours per mile.
Yes, but I don't run a truck.
General Motor's EV-1 used about 200. The Corbin
Sparrow needs about 150."
My EV spent 2430Wh for 12 miles or 2430/11=220Wh/mile.
Did you go more than 3 miles on your 8.71Ah trip?
See above, 11 miles.
What is the voltage of your battery pack?
See above.
If your batteries are 100V your EV goes a mile on less than 300 Watt-hours.
It is more than 100V but yes, it does a mile on 220Wh
which is less than 300Wh.
Now for your statement:
"8.71Ah out of battery, 1.73A in the battery, normal city driving."
You stated 1.73A into the battery. Not 1.73 Ah into the battery.
This was a typo, c'mon.
Did you ride generate 1.73A for the entire hour?
1.73 Amp-Hours into the pack during 25 minutes of ride.
These figures are very confusing. They must be understood for exactly what
they are quantitatively.
Are we getting closer?
Stu
I think it is clearer to you now. I do EVs long enough
not to confuse units and paying special attention to the
units I use.
Victor
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
Stu, David is absolutely right in his estimations.
I drove today to work and noticed my numbers:
8.71Ah out of battery, 1.73A in the battery, normal city driving.
This is 1.73/8.71 = 19.8% surprising record so far. Probably
because my home is at higher elevation than work place, but
the fact remains I gained about 20% of energy back.
This will be the case *for this route* regardless of my
total battery capacity, so don't ask for it (for the
record, it is 70 usable Ah). Important is I gain 1Ah per
each 5Ah spent.
Victor
Stu and Jan wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 'Instant' Hybrid idea.
On 13 Jun 2005 at 15:16, Stu and Jan wrote:
Divide 13Ah by XAh and that will be the decimal fraction of your gain in
range.
Sigh. OK, one more time.
"Practically speaking, the range improvement from using regeneration is
anywhere from 5 to 20 percent, "
You have made up your mind by throwing out these figures. 20% is an
emotional response, not a factual response.
Instead of sighing, please indicate the Ah capacity of your EV.
My mind is not made up about using the motor in reverse for braking. I am
for it 100%.
I just want the facts on the percentages of regeneration.
13Ah divided by what?
BoyntonStu
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Put the scope on the lines you're measuring and you'll understand why.
Forward/reverse enables generating 6kHz carrier (you may hear slight
whistle from the motor), this is what your emeter picks up.
There is no phase lag or lead, so no torque generated, but
you can't easily turn the motor shaft - the drive "locks"
0RPM since you don't press accelerator or regen. Thus the
electric noise.
Filter the inputs at least; shielding can only be for better,
worst case it will be useless, but no worse.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
It works AOK with the null modem cable. Now for the next problem:
it works fine when nothing else is on,
it works fine when in start position (PS Pump and Vacuum pump going)
is works fine when contactors engaged (Siemens AC system)
However, when the forward or reverse switch is pressed to drive or reverse,
the data become garbled. Each time I switch back to "neutral", the text
becomes legible again.
Noise? Should I put tin foil on my head?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: June 13, 2005 10:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Link10 RS232
Connect a dual color LED from pin 3 to pin 5.
If the LED flickers every second, it means the data is flowing.
If the LED comes on steady, it means the driver is connected but the data is
not coming out.
If the LED does not come on, my documentation might be wrong and you should
run the same test from pin 2 to pin 5.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 6:19 PM
Subject: Link10 RS232
I just tried my Link10 with RS232, however no data is coming from the
meter.
I have tried with two different laptops. Looking in the manual it does not
appear that I have to set any special parameters to turn it on.
Suggestions?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <outbind://41/www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
