EV Digest 4438
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Regen issues
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Regen issues
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Regen issues
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PFC chargers was Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor abuse? (was: RE: 9" Warp motor for drag racing)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC chargers was Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Regen issues
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Regen issues
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Regen issues
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) The PFC40L charger (was Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Regen issues
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) BLDC motors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Welding, schmelding
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: How to calculate regen value (was 'Instant' Hybrid idea)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The PFC40L charger, Quick charging
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise FIXED
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Zapi Controler 120v with Regen
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC40L is a PFC30 with liquid cooling and the screws turned up to 40
amps of grid current.
Same box as a PFC30, Same output cables but it has a 50 amp Range cord 14-50
plug.
The target price is $2500. Or the same cost as a stock PFC50. But it's
less than 1/2 the volume and needs NO airflow.
In testing it makes PFC30 levels of power continuously with 110 deg F water.
That's pretty hot cooling water.
I still need to bond the main torroid to the chill plate. So...1/2 the
thermal path is still not installed. So... it's works pretty good for not
being
fully finished.
I have been busy doing production work..read building and shipping normal
chargers, so I have not gotten higher power testing done on this prototype.
It's doing service on the Dyno, but the Zilla took a trip too the Power of
DC this weekend... So...The 40 just sits and waits some spare time.
Of course .... a check from a paying customer would really help me get off
my butt and finish the testing and get a couple made.
This charger would be the prefect mate for a water cooled Zilla. And it's a
test case for future Tango chargers. I have a few reasons for doing this
flavor charger.
I am reasonably confident in the engineering to take your money and promise
a 4 week lead time.
Any interest out there in a PFC75.... air cooled 18 Kw charger PFC50 case.
connectorized Anderson's for the cables... reverse flow fans, and three in
hand main inductor??? Clearly at this current level , you will have to
figure out how to connect to your grid supply your self. Read you get to
make up the cable ends.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > PFC40L.
>
> I'm interested in that. Do you have any news or info to report on it?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I have been following this thread for a few days and a
> > question comes up.
> >
> > Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is
> > talking about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X?
>
> It is irrelevant.
Not at all. It appears that AC systems tend to do a bit better at
recovering regen energy than DC systems do. That is not to say that it
must be so, but rather is a simple observation that people with AC
drives tend to report better energy capture than those (few) with DC
regen systems.
Joe Smalley's system is a sep-ex/compound wound aircraft
starter/generator which is not particularly known for its efficiency in
drive or regen modes.
DC regen systems using series motors generally seem to be relatively
poor at energy recovery, possibly due in large part to most of our
series traction motors not having interpoles or compensating windings to
allow them to operate well in regen. That is, unless you are running a
Kostov (Mitch Oates is the only series DC regen user with a Kostov I am
aware of), you must set your brush timing to neutral (compromising drive
mode efficiency) and you must limit the regen voltage and current to
avoid commutator damage.
DC sep ex systems using motors intended for traction duty probably come
pretty close to the regen performance of AC drive systems, however,
there are few of these vehicles about other than NEVs.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Any interest out there in a PFC75.... air cooled 18 Kw charger PFC50 case.
In the future, if we are running 400v and 650v Lithium AC setups, will
you have a charger to support these higher voltage levels?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/15/05, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> DC sep ex systems using motors intended for traction duty probably come
> pretty close to the regen performance of AC drive systems, however,
> there are few of these vehicles about other than NEVs.
Oh, and just about all road EVs manufactured in Europe ever :) (see
mine on the web page below)
And yes, the regen implementation is extremely good. 150A into a 162V
nominal pack, for as long as your hill lasts. Even when fully charged
(not quite sure how that works but it doesn't seem to mind).
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OOPS - sorry guys. The null modem cable I am using is not shielded.
(silly mistake)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: June 15, 2005 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and
> other standards for EMI levels.
> This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs
> among many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
I think the suggestion is not that the Siemens RS232 output is noisy, but
that the Siemens system puts 6kHz noise onto the traction wiring, and since
the Link 10's RS232 is referenced to the traction negative, then connecting
both to the same PC might exacerbate the noise problems by providing a path
that the Siemens engineers did not anticipate.
> Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve
> all the problems on its own.
Unless the Link 10 is changed from the E-Meter, this is not an option.
Its RS232 output is fixed at 9600, 8N1.
Looking at the signal with a 'scope is definitely the best next step,
however, if this is not an option, you can try filtering the signal before
it enters the notebook. A first attempt might be to try a ferrite bead over
the serial cable, or get a toroid and wrap the PC end of the serial cable
through it a few times. You could also try making your own serial cable
with a single twisted pair for the data and ground connections. Use
shielded twisted pair cable and try grounding the shield to either the DB9
shell or signal ground at the PC end. If you don't yet have an
opto-isolator between the E-Meter and notebook, add one (see Lee Hart's past
posts on construction details). Put the isolator at the PC end so that you
can still use a single twisted pair between it and the E-Meter (you will
have connections to the PCs handshake lines steal power for the output side
of the opto).
Finally, it is possible that the noise is being picked up by the notebook
itself rather than being brought in via the RS232 connection.
Some notebooks are nore sensitive to EMI/RFI than others.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is an idea that passes thru my head every once and a while.
__________
| FIELD |
| REVERSING|
| AND |
__________| BYPASS |____________________
| | CONTATORS| |
| |__________| |
--- __|__|__|__|__ _________ ____|____
- | A1 S1 S2 A2 | |___| |
--- __| | AC | | SPEED |
- |__| SERIES DC | |---| |
--- | MOTOR | MOTOR |___| CONTROL |
- |______________|_________| |_________|
| |
|__________________________________________|
The idea is to merge the low speed high torque of a series DC motor with
the high RPM capability of an AC system.
At low speeds the three sets of power switches in the AC control could be
operated in parallel, effectively removing the AC motor from the system and
getting max current thru the DC motor.
At higher speeds the AC motor would be brought on line with the current
still going thru the DC motor.
At very high speeds the DC motor could be bypassed, possibly even have a
system to pull the brushes away from the com.
Regen could be done with or without the DC motor in the circuit
Any possible advantage to this system could likely be bettered with a
single wound rotor AC motor, but it makes for and interesting diagram.
Now Lee can dig up a reference to this being done a long time ago.:)
___________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
At 08:05 AM 6/15/2005, you wrote:
I have been following this thread for a few days and a question comes up.
Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is talking
about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X? Is regen regen? I was
planning on an AC genhead on the front of my netgain 9" for some regen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
Link10 display works 100% all the time. Controller off, on and in drive
mode.
The Link10 RS232 to the computer displays data correctly, but only when the
controller is not in drive and reverse.
Connecting a scope to the Tx line at the computer end, the RS232 signal is
clean, but only when the controller is not in drive mode. When the
controller is in foward or reverse, the Siemens 6kHz PWM is clearly visible.
The RS232 cable is fully shielded with shielded connectors. The cable
shielding is only connected to the metal connector ends, and **not** to pin
5.
The computer is powered by a 300W inverter connected to the car's 12V
battery.
Lee, I am not using an opto isolator. (Bad EVer!)
My next step will be to put a lo-pass filter on the RS232 line to the
computer. Any suggestions for RC values?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 15, 2005 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
OOPS - sorry guys. The null modem cable I am using is not shielded.
(silly mistake)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: June 15, 2005 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and
> other standards for EMI levels.
> This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs
> among many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
I think the suggestion is not that the Siemens RS232 output is noisy, but
that the Siemens system puts 6kHz noise onto the traction wiring, and since
the Link 10's RS232 is referenced to the traction negative, then connecting
both to the same PC might exacerbate the noise problems by providing a path
that the Siemens engineers did not anticipate.
> Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve
> all the problems on its own.
Unless the Link 10 is changed from the E-Meter, this is not an option.
Its RS232 output is fixed at 9600, 8N1.
Looking at the signal with a 'scope is definitely the best next step,
however, if this is not an option, you can try filtering the signal before
it enters the notebook. A first attempt might be to try a ferrite bead over
the serial cable, or get a toroid and wrap the PC end of the serial cable
through it a few times. You could also try making your own serial cable
with a single twisted pair for the data and ground connections. Use
shielded twisted pair cable and try grounding the shield to either the DB9
shell or signal ground at the PC end. If you don't yet have an
opto-isolator between the E-Meter and notebook, add one (see Lee Hart's past
posts on construction details). Put the isolator at the PC end so that you
can still use a single twisted pair between it and the E-Meter (you will
have connections to the PCs handshake lines steal power for the output side
of the opto).
Finally, it is possible that the noise is being picked up by the notebook
itself rather than being brought in via the RS232 connection.
Some notebooks are nore sensitive to EMI/RFI than others.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, you are running a PFC boost front-end followed by a buck or .. ?
I'm just curious because SMPS are a point of interest for me.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to remove the ground from one end of the shielded cable. It
should be connected in one place only or you get ground loops and introduce
noise instead of removing it. Also run your laptop on batteries only so it
is isolated from any other possible connection with the controller in lieu
of using an isolated RS232 connection.
Lawrence Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 15, 2005 2:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
Link10 display works 100% all the time. Controller off, on and in drive
mode.
The Link10 RS232 to the computer displays data correctly, but only when the
controller is not in drive and reverse.
Connecting a scope to the Tx line at the computer end, the RS232 signal is
clean, but only when the controller is not in drive mode. When the
controller is in foward or reverse, the Siemens 6kHz PWM is clearly visible.
The RS232 cable is fully shielded with shielded connectors. The cable
shielding is only connected to the metal connector ends, and **not** to pin
5.
The computer is powered by a 300W inverter connected to the car's 12V
battery.
Lee, I am not using an opto isolator. (Bad EVer!)
My next step will be to put a lo-pass filter on the RS232 line to the
computer. Any suggestions for RC values?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 15, 2005 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
OOPS - sorry guys. The null modem cable I am using is not shielded.
(silly mistake)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: June 15, 2005 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and
> other standards for EMI levels.
> This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs
> among many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
I think the suggestion is not that the Siemens RS232 output is noisy, but
that the Siemens system puts 6kHz noise onto the traction wiring, and since
the Link 10's RS232 is referenced to the traction negative, then connecting
both to the same PC might exacerbate the noise problems by providing a path
that the Siemens engineers did not anticipate.
> Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve
> all the problems on its own.
Unless the Link 10 is changed from the E-Meter, this is not an option.
Its RS232 output is fixed at 9600, 8N1.
Looking at the signal with a 'scope is definitely the best next step,
however, if this is not an option, you can try filtering the signal before
it enters the notebook. A first attempt might be to try a ferrite bead over
the serial cable, or get a toroid and wrap the PC end of the serial cable
through it a few times. You could also try making your own serial cable
with a single twisted pair for the data and ground connections. Use
shielded twisted pair cable and try grounding the shield to either the DB9
shell or signal ground at the PC end. If you don't yet have an
opto-isolator between the E-Meter and notebook, add one (see Lee Hart's past
posts on construction details). Put the isolator at the PC end so that you
can still use a single twisted pair between it and the E-Meter (you will
have connections to the PCs handshake lines steal power for the output side
of the opto).
Finally, it is possible that the noise is being picked up by the notebook
itself rather than being brought in via the RS232 connection.
Some notebooks are nore sensitive to EMI/RFI than others.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:44 PM -0500 6/13/05, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> A higher voltage pack doesn't necessarily keep it in current limit
longer, that depends on your gearing tradeoffs. But the controller
will be working harder if it has to buck from a higher voltage.
That last sentence got me wondering... What's the magic "anti brush
arcing" number? Some limit of ~156 volts or something(I can't
remember)?
On ADC's (8" and 9") that are properly advanced and broken in I found
it to be 170V.
So if I had a 336 or 348 volt pack, and had the motor voltage capped
at 156 or whatever, that's going to be hard on the Zilla?
Is running a high voltage pack that big of an issue when keeping the
motor voltage down so it doesn't arc so bad in regards to making the
Zilla adjust the voltage difference like that?
Bucking a large voltage difference will always be a bit harder on the
motor and controller. There will also be a small efficiency drop as
well. In the controller it ends up working the filter capacitors
harder. I've never seen a problem with the Zilla capacitors getting
too hot but still I suggest avoiding it on single ratio cars which
have very low motor voltage much of the time. I don't see a problem
doing it on regular shifted cars unless the are very heavy. Also the
Z2K with twice as many caps seems not to care what is thrown at it.
In racing, the advantage to such a setup is that it makes up for
voltage sag on the batteries. Let's say you want to get peak power to
the motor by running it to 170V. Lets also say that you are running
as light a lead acid pack as possible and it puts out peak power at
about 6.5V per 12V block. In that case you would need 170V / 6.5V =
26 batteries. 26 Batteries is a 312V pack.
So that's the reason most of us racers run much higher voltage packs
than the motor can take and set the controller to limit the voltage
when it is higher than desired.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two transistor flyback, driven in Buck/buckboost/Boost mode.
Simple concept hard to dial in right.
Yes it looks like a boost front end but with a Buck transistor... for
those... "really dead battery " Days.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: PFC chargers was Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
> Rich, you are running a PFC boost front-end followed by a buck or .. ?
> I'm just curious because SMPS are a point of interest for me.
>
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geez!!!
Nobody right now runs a 400+ nominal pack.
Adding 1200 volt Sand.... Igbts will let us go where few of us dare to
tread.
Piece of Cake...
Staying alive to actually test them... adds new pucker factors.
No Sweat, but the chargers will have about %10 greater losses, just because
the higher voltage parts have quite a bit greater V forward drops.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Blue Meanie vs. Maserati
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Any interest out there in a PFC75.... air cooled 18 Kw charger PFC50
case.
>
>
> In the future, if we are running 400v and 650v Lithium AC setups, will
> you have a charger to support these higher voltage levels?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<Not at all. It appears that AC systems tend to do a bit better at
recovering regen energy than DC systems do. That is not to say that it
must be so, but rather is a simple observation that people with AC
drives tend to report better energy capture than those (few) with DC
regen systems.
Joe Smalley's system is a sep-ex/compound wound aircraft
starter/generator which is not particularly known for its efficiency in
drive or regen modes.
DC regen systems using series motors generally seem to be relatively
poor at energy recovery, possibly due in large part to most of our
series traction motors not having interpoles or compensating windings to
allow them to operate well in regen. That is, unless you are running a
Kostov (Mitch Oates is the only series DC regen user with a Kostov I am
aware of), you must set your brush timing to neutral (compromising drive
mode efficiency) and you must limit the regen voltage and current to
avoid commutator damage.
DC sep ex systems using motors intended for traction duty probably come
pretty close to the regen performance of AC drive systems, however,
there are few of these vehicles about other than NEVs.>>>
What about PM?! Especially, what about regen with an Etek (or, if flush with
cash, a Lynch)? As for the SepEx, Curtis makes a controller for up to 80V and
600A, so it's just a case of finding a motor, and I hear tell a lot of 36 or
48V shunt motors are used in forklifts (is the a lift mech in the house to
confirm or deny?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are you guys all talking about the same type of regen? Victor is
talking about AC. Joe Smalley, Are you AC or SEP-X?
It is irrelevant.
Not at all. It appears that AC systems tend to do a bit better at
I knew you'd reply on this one Roger, so I said
*IF* regen efficiencies are the same for AC induction
and DC SepEx systems, they would recover the same energy,
so it is not relevant for the sake of discussion.
Now, it may never be the case in practice, and SepEx systems
we're aware of are worse off in that respect.
The theory still holds though :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I knew you'd reply on this one Roger,
<grin>
> *IF* regen efficiencies are the same for AC induction
> and DC SepEx systems, they would recover the same energy,
> so it is not relevant for the sake of discussion.
>
> Now, it may never be the case in practice, and SepEx systems
> we're aware of are worse off in that respect.
>
> The theory still holds though :-)
Yes, in theory, there may be no reason for a difference between AC and
sep-ex DC regen efficiency. However, in practice there is (today) a
difference, so in practical terms the drive type does matter. ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
The PFC40L is a PFC30 with liquid cooling and the screws turned up to 40
amps of grid current.
Same box as a PFC30, Same output cables but it has a 50 amp Range cord 14-50
plug.
The target price is $2500. Or the same cost as a stock PFC50. But it's
less than 1/2 the volume and needs NO airflow.
Rich,
Interesting that it is close to around half the cost of a 100kW
Siemens inverter.
If you feed itwith 3 phase from the motor side and regulate regen input,
you instantly get 100kW water cooled charger for $5k as small as
6kW PFC20. You get 5x of the value for you money with Siemens
approach (power wise)...
Should I get on and start turning inverters to the chargers?
practically no mods will be needed ;-)
Anyone got 400A 3 phase feed? It'll charge you in no time
and reliable solution is there if you want to try...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What about PM?! Especially, what about regen with an Etek
> (or, if flush with cash, a Lynch)?
The Etek isn't suitable for on-road use, and even the biggest Lynch is
marginal except in the lightest of vehicles. As a result, I'm not aware
of much real-world data on their regen performance, especially on-road.
> As for the SepEx, Curtis
> makes a controller for up to 80V and 600A
Curtis makes two sep-ex controllers, the 1244 and the 1274. They
are/have been used in NEVs and are the sep-ex systems I was referring to
(thanks to our EU members for reminding me that on-road sep-ex is only a
rarity here in North America ;^).
> so it's just a
> case of finding a motor, and I hear tell a lot of 36 or 48V
> shunt motors are used in forklifts (is the a lift mech in the
> house to confirm or deny?)
There is no problem finding motors for these controllers. Try ADC, D&D,
and GE. Not long ago ADC had a screaming deal on some sep-ex motors
with output end bearings (unlike the typical NEV/golf cart motor which
relies on the gearbox/transaxle/diff to support the output shaft).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are really big BLDC motors and they are the king of torque in a
short space, but, as I am shure others on this list will point out, you
can't turn down the field(Easily) so they have a spikey torque curve
requiring lots of shifting. They can have a very high efficiency if
kept in they're RPM band. And they are easy to control.
In looking for resonably large ones, for an autocross project, I found
all american made ones to be more expensive than europe or anywhere
else. Aparrently because of the cobalt used in the magnets and the
protection of cobolt in the US as a "strategic" metal or some excuse
like that.
These guys sell kollmorgen equivilant
http://www.emoteq.com/
and frameless :
http://www.emoteq.com/images/ht%20selection%20guide.pdf
Heason
kolmorgen and etel (Don't even bother viewing in non microsoft browser)
http://www.heason.com/products/rotary_motors/direct_drive/brushless_frameless_torque/brushless_frameless_torque.html
But if I remember correctly, these guys had much better prices and
better EV needs
http://www.alxion.com/pages/pg_e_gamstk.htm
If your project is small, Rich Rudmans Minibike from hell has a great
motor and controller combination. Maybe he sells these now?
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it's one of these reva things made in bangalore
it's a direct drive to the back axle with sepex
gubbins
performance is about 40mph with a range of around 30
miles (they say 40 but you would be measuring
performance with a calender)
having had a look at the batteries it needs a big pack
of thunderskys to give it some range and a voltage
hike to pep up the performance
has a nice computer on board with watering system
battery heaters , fans, regen, aircon and central
locking cd player etc
in theory it will cary 4 people but i think hills
would be a drag
i'ts suposed to be delivered friday so we shall see
...
if it can cope with the roads in india it should be ok
for popping around abergavenny in
reb
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 6/14/05, reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > oh and i've just bought an electric car
>
> So let's hear about it, what did you get?
>
> Regards
> Evan
>
>
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
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Ed Koffeman wrote:
> For the regenerated energy to be useful, it must be available at
> a later time e.g. when the light turns green after stopping, while
> accelerating again... The voltage differential between charge and
> discharge is typically lost energy, because the batteries do not
> make the those Ah available for propulsion (the voltage drops as
> soon as the current stops) at the voltage that was applied to the
> system during regeneration. Therefore those watts are not
> representative of useable energy.
I agree. You can calculate the regen efficiency many different ways,
depending on how you want to put your "thumb on the scale". But what I
think ultimately matters is how much extra range you get with/without
regen for a given driving profile. To do this, you'll need to include
the effects of the voltage difference between charge and discharge, as
well as the efficiencies of the drive train, motor/generator, and
charge/discharge controllers.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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At 5:43 PM -0700 6/15/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
The target price is $2500. Or the same cost as a stock PFC50. But it's
less than 1/2 the volume and needs NO airflow.
Rich,
Interesting that it is close to around half the cost of a 100kW
Siemens inverter.
If you feed itwith 3 phase from the motor side and regulate regen input,
you instantly get 100kW water cooled charger for $5k as small as
6kW PFC20. You get 5x of the value for you money with Siemens
approach (power wise)...
Should I get on and start turning inverters to the chargers?
practically no mods will be needed ;-)
Anyone got 400A 3 phase feed? It'll charge you in no time
and reliable solution is there if you want to try...
That would be interesting!
But of course it only works if your battery pack is more than 336V
nominal (for lead acid, otherwise you can't control the current from
the 240V line) and the AC side noise might be really high depending
on the filters which can easily double the size of the unit.
AC propulsion does this with their drive but they're limited to a
much lower power. About 20kW. I guess it's not as easy as just
hooking it up.
For one you need inductance in the input lines. And that's not light.
ACP uses some of the motor windings but of course that adds
complexity in filtering and switching them.
In a similar vein. I used Zilla's to charge from a higher voltage
battery pack (dump charge pack) to a lower one. Zilla's start out at
only $2000. But the extra battery pack is not so cheap.
We've done well over 200A quick charge into the batteries, and that
was just limited by the welding inductor and cables that we were
using. Optimas fill up pretty quickly at those rates. I seem to
recall that in 15 minutes the current had tapered down pretty low.
Yes, fast charging certainly can be fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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Don Cameron wrote:
> The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
> Link10 display works 100% all the time. Controller off, on and
> in drive mode.
>
> The Link10 RS232 to the computer displays data correctly, but
> only when the controller is not in drive and reverse.
> Connecting a scope to the Tx line at the computer end, the RS232
> signal is clean, but only when the controller is not in drive mode.
> When the controller is in foward or reverse, the Siemens 6kHz PWM
> is clearly visible.
>
> The RS232 cable is fully shielded with shielded connectors. The
> cable shielding is only connected to the metal connector ends,
> and **not** to pin 5.
>
> The computer is powered by a 300W inverter connected to the car's 12V
> battery.
>
> Lee, I am not using an opto isolator. (Bad EVer!)
>
> Hope this helps,
Yes, it does!
Your problem is caused by the lack of an isolator in the Link-10 RS-232
output. Add the isolator, as close to the Link-10 as possible, and I
predict your problem will go away.
The mechanism is subtle, but I'll try to explain it.
1. The propulsion battery pack is floating, i.e. neither + nor -
connects to the car's chassis. An ohmmeter should indicate a
very high resistance between either + or - to chassis (megohms).
A voltmeter would show a negligible voltage between these
points. This means there is no DC path from battery + or -
to the chassis.
2. But, there is an *AC* path! The metal chassis of the car, and
every piece of metal it is connected to (motor frame, controller
case, etc.) forms one plate of a large capacitor. The plates
inside the batteries, the windings in the motor, and all the
parts mounted on heatsinks inside the controller are the other
plate of this capacitor. The various plastic insulators (battery
cases, wire insulation, insulators between semiconductors and
their heatsinks in the controller, etc.) are the dielectric of
this capacitor.
3. The controller draws current from the batteries in sharp-edged
pulses. The resistance and inductance of the batteries, motor,
controller, and wiring converts these current pulses into voltage
pulses. So, a 'scope will show you that there are strong 6 KHz AC
voltage spikes between the + and - battery terminals and chassis.
4. The Link-10 uses the - terminal of the pack as its "ground"
reference; all its input and output signals are referenced to
it. But since this - terminal has significant AC noise, so
does the Link-10's RS-232 Ground and Data pins! The voltage
*difference* between Ground and Data is "clean" and noise-free;
but both are bouncing together relative to chassis ground.
5. Your laptop's power supply is probably a conventional switching
power supply. Such supplies all have capacitors connected between
both input wires and "ground", and both output wires and "ground".
The capacitors are necessary to pass EMI requirements; without
them, it would interfere with radio and TV in the area.
6. The laptop power supply may also ground its negative output to
the car's chassis with an actual wire, or thru a resistor. Or if
you plug it into an AC adapter with a 3-wire cord, there will be
a direct wire connection to the third wire ground.
6. So, your laptop is using the car's chassis as its ground reference.
Or if plugged into an AC adapter, it uses AC powerline's third
ground pin or neutral as its ground reference.
7. Therefore the laptop is seeing BOTH the RS-232 data *and* the
motor controller's 6 KHz noise!
The "obvious" fix is to connect the Link-10's and laptops ground
references together. But this grounds the - end of your propulsion pack!
That creates safety hazards.
So, the solution is to add optical isolation between the Link-10 and
laptop RS-232 ports. That way, they don't need to share a ground
reference.
Note that no reasonable amount of grounding or shielding can eliminate
this problem. Trying to do so means you need to get all the controller's
switching noise off the pack - terminal. At the power levels involved,
this is not practical.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the tip Lawrence. Running the laptop on batteries corrected the
issue. Noise is an interesting thing...
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Harris, Lawrence
Sent: June 15, 2005 3:22 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
You might want to remove the ground from one end of the shielded cable. It
should be connected in one place only or you get ground loops and introduce
noise instead of removing it. Also run your laptop on batteries only so it
is isolated from any other possible connection with the controller in lieu
of using an isolated RS232 connection.
Lawrence Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 15, 2005 2:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
The noise in the RS232 still persists. Here are the symptoms:
Link10 display works 100% all the time. Controller off, on and in drive
mode.
The Link10 RS232 to the computer displays data correctly, but only when the
controller is not in drive and reverse.
Connecting a scope to the Tx line at the computer end, the RS232 signal is
clean, but only when the controller is not in drive mode. When the
controller is in foward or reverse, the Siemens 6kHz PWM is clearly visible.
The RS232 cable is fully shielded with shielded connectors. The cable
shielding is only connected to the metal connector ends, and **not** to pin
5.
The computer is powered by a 300W inverter connected to the car's 12V
battery.
Lee, I am not using an opto isolator. (Bad EVer!)
My next step will be to put a lo-pass filter on the RS232 line to the
computer. Any suggestions for RC values?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: June 15, 2005 2:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
OOPS - sorry guys. The null modem cable I am using is not shielded.
(silly mistake)
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: June 15, 2005 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These systems are OEM and won't be produced unless conform to ISO and
> other standards for EMI levels.
> This means no noise on *their* RS232 interface, and that one outputs
> among many other things measured battery current and voltage as well.
I think the suggestion is not that the Siemens RS232 output is noisy, but
that the Siemens system puts 6kHz noise onto the traction wiring, and since
the Link 10's RS232 is referenced to the traction negative, then connecting
both to the same PC might exacerbate the noise problems by providing a path
that the Siemens engineers did not anticipate.
> Also, if you slow down your link 10 from 9600 to 2400, it may solve
> all the problems on its own.
Unless the Link 10 is changed from the E-Meter, this is not an option.
Its RS232 output is fixed at 9600, 8N1.
Looking at the signal with a 'scope is definitely the best next step,
however, if this is not an option, you can try filtering the signal before
it enters the notebook. A first attempt might be to try a ferrite bead over
the serial cable, or get a toroid and wrap the PC end of the serial cable
through it a few times. You could also try making your own serial cable
with a single twisted pair for the data and ground connections. Use
shielded twisted pair cable and try grounding the shield to either the DB9
shell or signal ground at the PC end. If you don't yet have an
opto-isolator between the E-Meter and notebook, add one (see Lee Hart's past
posts on construction details). Put the isolator at the PC end so that you
can still use a single twisted pair between it and the E-Meter (you will
have connections to the PCs handshake lines steal power for the output side
of the opto).
Finally, it is possible that the noise is being picked up by the notebook
itself rather than being brought in via the RS232 connection.
Some notebooks are nore sensitive to EMI/RFI than others.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
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Lee Hart wrote:
The replacement for variable brush timing is to add compensating
windings, interpoles, and pole face windings. These look like extra
field windings, but are positioned to cancel out the warping of the
magnetic field due to armature current.
Today, it seems all the people who knew how to do this have been laid
off, retired, or died. Modern motor manufacturers care more about
"cheap" than "good", so essentially no one makes motors with
compensating windings.
But, there are a few experimenters who are rediscovering the techniques,
and applying them to their racing EVs. Dennis Berube, Rich Rudman, and
John Wayland come to mind.
I have "Armature Winding and Motor Repair" cir. 1920 I'd let anyone
borrow. Has complete descriptions regarding interpoles and compensating
windings. [1920!]
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/
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