EV Digest 4465
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: things that get on your nerves
by reb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) new batteries, low specific gravities
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DC Controller failures. A list?
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: battery post temperature dots
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) burnt motor brush lead wires
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: List Meta Request
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Owner repairs, was Re: things that get on your nerves
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Albright contactor
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Owner repairs, was Re: things that get on your nerves
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Albright contactor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Owner repairs, was Re: things that get on your nerves
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: new batteries, low specific gravities
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [homebuiltcars] Hybrids, EV drives, Re: Jerry's feedback.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: [homebuiltcars] Hybrids, EV drives, Re: Jerry's feedback.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Zilla cooling pump, was: Re: Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [homebuiltcars] Hybrids, EV drives, Re: Jerry's feedback.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: '05 Gasless on Greenwood...what fun! Album online.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: acceleration problem/help
by "john" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: discontinued Siemens motors
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: List Meta Request
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: discontinued Siemens motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
thanks lee
at least it's not just me moaning
the point about the makers thinking their design is perfect is a nice one - the
reva could have been designed by most people on this list and they would
probably have done a better job of it
but then it was cheap........
i don't think it will end up as undriveable junk as even without service data I
can fix this thing as I've got more complicated machines in my kitchen than
this car
it would just make life a lot simpler If I had the parts schematics wiring
diagrams etc
the only bit I can't fix is the little brain the car has , but then there are
lots of people who can and worst case scenario I could live without it
watch this space for more moaning when things fall off it and I have to waste
hours of my life hunting for information........
reb
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
reb wrote:
> I bought one of the little Reva electric cars...
> I asked them to let me have a workshop manual or tech details
> so I could fix the problems myself...
> their answer was no...
>
> Am I being unreasonable here or do they have a valid point?
> opinions please
The manufacturer thinks their design is "perfect", and no one could
possibly design it better than they did. They may indeed fantasize that
their design will be "stolen" by competitors (as if there are any
competitors for building EVs). Plus, (at least in America), their
lawyers will imagine all sorts of lawsuits if customers dared to work on
their own cars.
The dealer thinks that blocking any self-service will guarantee them
repair business. They assume the customer is an untrained idiot that
would cause more problems rather than fix anything. They also think that
a monopoly on parts means there is no limit to how much they can charge.
Both attitudes have been proven wrong in the past. All new products have
reliability and design issues to work out. The factory makes mistakes
through ignorance, and the dealers don't have the experience to fix them
either. Not providing access to good service information and reasonably
priced parts will alienate customers, and hurt the business in the long
run. Many EV companies have failed because they follow this path!
So, I think you are being reasonable to seek service information.
Frankly, in my experience if you DON'T somehow get the service
information, most EVs will soon wind up undrivable junk. The factory
changes the design and drops support for the earlier model; the dealers
go out of business; or the only employee that knows anything quits. The
car is then unfixable unless the owner has the service information so he
can fix it himself (or find someone who can do it for him).
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been pretty happy with my new pack of US125s 6V'ers that I
installed in the Rabbit about a month ago. Seem nice, new and
zippy, and felt like they were breaking in well. I even had 28
miles on the pack one time, and after coming up my hill,
indications were that I could've gone another 25 miles or so if I
had wanted to eke it out, giving me 50 miles, already well on the
way to where this car should be, with 50-70 mile "range" (however
you define it).
So, settled in for a hydrometer session Sunday afternoon. I like
my hydrometer with its easy-to-read tick marks (no funky floating
balls) and temperature gauge. Go through all 48 cells in the
pack in about 45 minutes to an hour, reading the numbers off into
the tape machine and moving them to a spreadsheet at a later time
(dreaming about that digital connection to the computer).
Anyways, I was rather surprised at how low the specific gravity
readings were. Temperature (62-64 degF), the readings ranged
from 1226 to 1261 (the table should be posted at
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/050626_hydrometer_readings.txt).
I usually run readings at 1270-1290, so I'm a little surprised,
especially given the way the pack otherwise was behaving.
My usual runs are 10-20 miles, usually closer to 10. My charging
is done with a Zivan K2 120V charger, IUI with bulk charge (the
first I) at ~11A, the U is about 7.05V/6Vbattery, and the last I
is at 2A. I'm pretty conservative, I guess, with the U - figure
ratcheting down the amps at borderline gassing is better at
reducing the shedding of active material and reducing the chances
of missing the changeover point. My final I is non-changeable at
3 hours, so from an earlier posting by Roger Stockton, I've
decided that 2A is a good compromise. I've seen the batteries at
7.7V/6Vbattery during this final I, and my nose is telling me
that things are gassing heavily.
My first pack was a set of US2300s about 11 years ago, but I was
klutz with a hydrometer and didn't use one much at that pack's
start, and those batts were in the car from the get-go. My
second pack was a set of Trojan T125s, and I saw low hydrometer
readings when I got them from the battery shop, but the readings
came up quickly - however those batteries were cycled on the
bench for several months before they went into the car and saw
driving loads. So this new pack I have now is really the first
pack of new batts I'm taking hydrometer readings with under
driving loads. So the question is, are low hydrometer readings
to be expected till the batteries get cycled up and "formed"
(whatever that means after all the forming that goes on at the
factory)? I have about 300 miles on this pack, 1 month in the
car, and they sat at the dealer's for 3 weeks before that.
They were also quite low on electrolyte when I got them, so I
added a fair amount after the hydrometer readings on the 26th,
and will fill them up the rest of the way to the meniscus level
in the next month or two (don't want to jolt them with a single
big fill). I can feel the change with the water in, and I'm sure
the specific gravities are even lower now, especially near the
top of the cells.
Oh, also after the water fill, I decided to give the pack a 2-hr
equalization charge @ 8A on the variac. Get things churning
really good, and stinky at 8.15V/batt. I hopefully won't have to
do that often, given the 2A stink-a-thon on every normal charge.
Thanks for any info,
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw this posting a few days ago, and I'm about three weeks
behind on my EVDL reading (once you get behind, it's really hard
to catch up...).
I have essentially a VoltsRabbit, 96V floodeds (6V), 8"ADC motor.
Car weighs about 2900lbs.
The only time the car has left me in the lurch, so to speak, was
when the Curtis 1221B controller popped in December 1995 (at one
year old). The car had been acting weird for about a month
prior, mainly on my steep hill home to my apt. I'd be rolling up
the hill good at about 17mph (the hill has a 25 mph speed limit,
but with its funky curve, narrowness and deer types floating
around, most cars are doing 20-25 mph, with the hot-doggers going
over 25), and then about half-way up, frequently the power would
go away, and then it would be down, down, down to 10 or 12 mph.
The standard VoltsRabbit instrumentation I had at that time for
amps was reading off the motor. I wired up voltage taps for the
battery pack, downstream of the contactor between the battery
pack and the controller, and between the controller and the
motor.
What I found that a typical run up the hill would have the
battery pack voltage sagging to 79V, with that same voltage going
into the motor (if one can depend on their digital voltmeter to
deal sanely with a pwm waveform - it seemed ok). 100% duty cycle
on the controller, or thereabouts. 300-350A to the motor. 1st
gear - the only gear I can climb the hill with.
The speed drop I found to occur when the voltage to the motor
drooped down into the 60s and lower, with motor amps remaining at
300-350A. The controller wasn't very hot, and I had always
thought that controller thermal cutback was for amps, not volts,
but maybe I'm wrong (clarification?). The controller had gotten
quite hot the previous summer several times on these hills,
almost too hot to touch, but I never sensed a cutback, designed
or not. The controller was on the standard VoltsRabbit aluminum
heatsink.
Anyways, the day of the blowup, I headed over the 400ft ridge
down to Mill Valley, no real problems going over the grade.
Coasted down over the other side, pedal-controlled contactor open
all the way down, coasting to the light. Clutch down as I rolled
to a stop. Once the light turned green, let up the clutch, push
down on the accelerator pedal, contactor thunks close, car just
starts to move, then "BANG!", and I swore the tires chirped, and
that was all she wrote. I got to push the car across the
intersection (was very glad the new Goodyear Invictas LRRs had
just been installed, so that was easy), and push it into a
parking lot to get the vehicle towed home.
Mike Brown kindly loaned me another 1221B. When I had pulled my
old, dead, controller out, turning it over and around elicited a
rattling noise inside. Interestingly enough, Mike Brown's
controller almost immediately started exhibiting the same
slow-down behavior on my apt hill. Not good! I guess this hill
is so close to the 1221B Curtis-jiggle current limit that it
causes problems for these controllers.
Anyways, I badly wanted one of those hot new Auburn Kodiak
controllers, but space constraints led me to pull the plug on
those long things, and I didn't know if Mike's 1221B was about to
die. I ended up going with an upgrade from Mike Brown / Curtis.
Got $200 for my dead 1221B and upgraded to a 1231C-8601, complete
with heatsink. Spent the spring of 1996 changing the
controller/contactor mounting and cabling scene around, plus
adding two big 4" KTA fans onto the heatsink. Hood clearance was
a definite problem. Apparently it was all worth it, since the
1231C has been cool and happy as a clam and hasn't given me a
whit of trouble in nine years. It may have even been THE choice
to make at the time, since the Auburn scene faded away into
non-supportsville.
That's the only time in eleven years this EV has left me in the
lurch!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 10:53 PM
Subject: DC Controller failures. A list?
> While discussing the merits of clutched designs, Lee Hart
brings up
> some good points about controller failures. I'm wondering if it
would
> be good to compile a list of failures. See my suggestion at the
end
> of this post...
>
[snip]
> On first pass this is data that I think would be useful to
collect:
> Name of person that is happened to. (to avoid duplicate
reports, kept
> confidential on request)
> Approximate date of failure.
> Brand and model of controller.
> How many miles/months has the controller been in the car.
> Rebuild history of the controller.
> Nominal system voltage.
> Cooling system on controller.
> Home city/state of car (for general temperature effects)
> Weight of car.
> When did the failure occur (Key on, after charge, first
throttle
> press, while driving etc.)
> What happened right before it failed and on the last drive
before the
> failure. (charge, hot driving, cool driving)
> Did the car run away uncontrolled, how was it stopped?
> Was there a fire or evidence of fire? How was it put out?
> Any other thoughts that you think may be relevant to the
failure.
>
> If you think this is a good idea, let us hear your story! Or if
you
> prefer send reports directly to the address below and then I
will
> collect them all on one web page.
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote November 15, 2004 2:41 PM:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:07:10 -0800, "Tom Shay"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >There are a variety of paints, labels, crayons, etc. for that
purpose.
> >A brand name to look for is Tempil. I've seen Tempil products
at
> >a welding supply store.
>
> Another brand is Temp-Plate from the guys who invented the
type, Wahl
> Instruments. Unfortunately, Wahl was bought out by Cole-Palmer
a few
> years ago but their core products are still available.
>
>
http://www.instrumentationgroup.com/w_Wahl/temp-plate/n_wahl_temp-plate.html
>
> Wahl also makes a one-way lacquer that changes color at the
designated
> temperature. I believe the name is Templaq. Look on that same
site.
>
> As Lee mentioned, Omega sells most of this stuff. Convenient
but pricey.
> Usually, buying direct from the mfr when possible can save up
to a third
> or more over Omega's prices.
I wanted to report back that I have been using the Omega
Celsi-Dots, and they work quite well. The model # is TL-S-150 (I
decided 150 degF is about as hot as a post should get).
Non-reversible, dot in center turns black at 150degF. Package of
50 is $9 (that didn't seem too expensive to me for some
monitoring peace-of-mind). www.omega.com. I haven't had any
fall off the posts yet, but degreasing the posts is probably
pretty important. Pointed out two hot posts, one I knew about,
and one I wasn't aware of, although that may have been a glitch,
since the post didn't feel hot after coming up my hill.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
During the process of installing new batteries late last month, I
was inspecting the brush end of my Advanced DC 8" motor. I
thought it rather odd when I spied what appeared a first to be a
pig-tailed wire with some copper snot and burnt insulation
hanging off the end. Hmm, that's rather strange, and tried as I
might, I could not make it go away... Bad news, my ol' reliable
motor looks like it has got A PROBLEM.
Since this work was being done down on the peninsula, it occurred
to me that Otmar (who lives in Palo Alto about 5-10 miles away)
might be willing to help me out of this pickle. Many years
before (1996), I had observed Otmar disassemble and reassemble an
8"-er down at Phoenix. It all seemed very casual, and it didn't
take Otmar long to do the work. Needless to say, I was
impressed! Just the person who might know what is going on.
Otmar graciously came to the rescue, and I think he had a fair
idea of what was wrong with the motor from my rather vague
description over the phone, since he had with him a motor
end-bell with the brush terminal leads inside (they go from
terminals A1 and A2 to the four brush-sets in the motor).
As soon as Otmar saw the scene in the motor, he immediately knew
what had happened. One of the leads from A1 going to a brush-set
on the opposite side of the bell-housing had been pinned between
the housing and a terminal attached to a brushset (coming from
A2). The sharp edge of the terminal had rubbed through the
insulation of the lead wire, shorted out and burnt the wire in
two, causing the copper snot. Fortunately, the controller did
not blow up. So the way I visualize it now, I think I had lost
one brush-set, the one on the opposite side of the motor from
terminal A1.
So two things:
1) Anyone have any idea what the implications are of running like
this, for who knows how long, probably not more than four years,
when I last checked the brush area? I was told efficiency might
have dropped anywhere from a few percent to a lot. All expressed
concern about thermal issues. I guess the amps went through
three brush-sets instead of four.
2) Probably a good idea to give new ADC motors a glance over on
the brush end. Take the cover off and see that none of the leads
are pinned against the bell-housing and other lead terminals. My
motor likely came from the factory that way, since it had not
been dis-assembled in the time that I have had it, and the wires
aren't likely to be moving around in there.
I sure am coming up the hill easier now, 17mph even after 28
miles, and somewhat faster after 10 miles. Hard to tell if motor
or new battery pack, but I think it's a bit more than just new
batteries. Can I least grin that it was a $25 parts fix and just
an hour or two to install a new terminal lead with Otmar's
knowledgeable assistance? Thanks, Otmar!
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried the feature in outlook - they call it "conversation" - it works
great - thanks for the tip.
However, if you can believe it, Microsoft's Outlooks has no problem
differentiating between threads started with the same email, but with the
subject changed. For example, all of the following subjects were started
with the same thread:
Re: Link10 RS232 - Siemens Noise?
Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists
Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise FIXED
Re: Link10 RS232 - Noise still persists (now, Electrocution)
In Outlook, all of these show up as separate threads. Go figure, usually
Microsoft lacks these fine features.
Actually, the above threads is a good example how the conversation branched
into two threads: one trying to fix an RS232 EMeter problem, and another
discussing the issues associated with isolalation of computers and
isolation.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: June 29, 2005 12:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: List Meta Request
Tell you what: Try out the threading feature in your client; it's quite
useful. If you get to liking it, you'll see why it's bad form to make an OT
reply to a thread.
If I were to claim that I like it when people post in ALL CAPS, you'd find
it preposterous if I were to encourage people to do so.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Will Rick Woodbury release documentation how to fix Tango?
I doubt. Will Otmar release schematics for Zilla so anyone
can fix (or have it fixed)? Somehow I doubt too and it is not
only because of the risk of lost revenue. After such repairs
by non-experts and inevitable failures, the reputation of the
product and creator is damaged. Auto maufacturers are in the
same boat. They don't mind to release info, but only to those
whom they approve and train like service stations staff, which
is reasonable. Whether this staff becomes greedy feeling monopoly,
is another issue but still not the basis to release the info to
anyone who ask. >>>
Gawd, I *hope* no-one tries repairing a 2000 amp Zilla themselves, at least not
any amateur who hasn't "filled up a coffee can of dead mosfets" for himself!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking thru all the parts that are in my S-10 conversion and decided to
test the contactors (Albright Curtis, SM200-3, 12 V). Hooked up two leads to a
12 v battery and put them on the spade terminals of one of the contactors and
clik clack, the relay closed. Took the other one and put the leads to it and
sparks flew, welded one of the wires to the bat terminal, and melted the diode.
Is the 12 V relay polarized? I guess I must have turned the 2nd one 180 deg
from the first one.
Looking down on the contactor, with the HV connectors at the top, the top spade
terminal is + and the bottom one is -, correct?
And I also see that there is a pos/neg on the HV connectors, pos + being the
one closer to the mounting plate.
Has the contactor been harmed in any way?
What is the value of the diode?
Are these contactors good for 180V?
picture at http://www.ironandwood.org/albright.htm
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's not what is being debated whether one take a nerve
to try to fix it. The issue is information of its
construction is not publicly released for those who do want
(and qualified) to fix it.
According to Lee's email this leads to the Cafe electric's
monopoly in Zilla repair field, in theory allowing to charge
as much as they want since the customer is stuck without
alternatives.
I'm saying, not releasing info in such cases may be a good
thing for the manufacturer's reputation and perhaps for
safety of the casual curious customer, not only because of
the fear of stealing ideas how to make it from scratch.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gawd, I *hope* no-one tries repairing a 2000 amp Zilla themselves, at least not
any amateur who hasn't "filled up a coffee can of dead mosfets" for himself!
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was looking thru all the parts that are in my S-10
> conversion and decided to test the contactors (Albright
> Curtis, SM200-3, 12 V). Hooked up two leads to a 12 v battery
> and put them on the spade terminals of one of the contactors
> and clik clack, the relay closed. Took the other one and put
> the leads to it and sparks flew, welded one of the wires to
> the bat terminal, and melted the diode. Is the 12 V relay
> polarized? I guess I must have turned the 2nd one 180 deg
> from the first one.
The coil is not polarised, however the diode across it is. You must
connect the positive supply to the end of the diode that is marked with
a band, otherwise what you will do/have done is short the 12V supply
through a forward biased diode. The diode itself is only rated for
something like 1A, which is why it melted.
The good news is that the coil should be just fine. Remove the melted
diode and you should be able to click clack it by applying 12V to the
coil in either polarity.
The HV contacts are polarised because there are magnetic blowouts in the
contactor and observing the indicated polarity ensures the arc blows out
in the direction intended/preferred by the designers.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/29/05, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's not what is being debated whether one take a nerve
> to try to fix it. The issue is information of its
> construction is not publicly released for those who do want
> (and qualified) to fix it.
>
> According to Lee's email this leads to the Cafe electric's
> monopoly in Zilla repair field, in theory allowing to charge
> as much as they want since the customer is stuck without
> alternatives.
I've got to say, I've found Cafe Electric's website invaluable on a
couple of occasions when I've been looking for circuit diagrams.
I applaud the open source approach, I hope I would have the courage
and generosity to do that if I was to design something that was
potentially profit making!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Anyways, I was rather surprised at how low the specific
> gravity readings were. Temperature (62-64 degF), the
> readings ranged from 1226 to 1261 (the table should be posted
> at http://www.geocities.com/chursch/050626_hydrometer_readings.txt).
> I usually run readings at 1270-1290, so I'm a little
> surprised, especially given the way the pack otherwise was behaving.
Are your 1226-1261 readings before or after temperature compensation is
applied to them?
The temperature compensated values should certainly be over 1275 if you
are fully charging the batteries.
> My usual runs are 10-20 miles, usually closer to 10. My
> charging is done with a Zivan K2 120V charger, IUI with bulk
> charge (the first I) at ~11A, the U is about 7.05V/6Vbattery,
> and the last I is at 2A.
7.05V/6V battery is a quite low 2.35V/cell. For an algorithm with a
timed constant current finish, such as you describe, you would normally
charge to at least 2.4V/cell (and USBMC recommends 2.583V/cell for their
particular chemistry).
2A is a reasonable finish rate (for newish, helathy batteries), and a
reasonable criteria for terminating the constant voltage (U) phase,
however, with such a low voltage the current may drop to this level
before your battery is fully charged, and then the fixed duration finish
phase may be unable to provide the amount of overcharge the battery
needs. Your finish phase can only provide 6Ah of additional charge.
> I've seen the batteries at 7.7V/6Vbattery during
> this final I, and my nose is telling me that things are
> gassing heavily.
This is a good sign, as 7.7V/battery is 2.57V/cell, which is *almost* up
to USBMC's recommended charge voltage. However, it isn't quite there
and the batteries may not be remaining at or above this level long
enough for the s.g. to come up fully.
> Oh, also after the water fill, I decided to give the pack a
> 2-hr equalization charge @ 8A on the variac. Get things
> churning really good, and stinky at 8.15V/batt.
Was the pack voltage still rising after 2hrs, or did you arbitrarily
decide to terminate the equalise charge there?
You probably don't need to use quite that high an equalise current, but
if you allow it to continue until the pack voltage quits rising and then
measure the s.g. after letting the pack rest perhaps 12-24hrs, you
should certainly be seeing values nearer to the 1290 mark.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
> >
> > But a true serial Hybrid with a very small
> > ICE/gen of 6-10hp/1,000lbs and a 30-70 mile range
> batt
> > pack with full power EV drive is much more eff
> than
> > they are or even a large ICE parallel hybrid is as
> > David says, as I describe below..
> > Plus you will notice my usual bias' for
> small,
> > lightweight, aero EV's.
>
> Technically, what you call serial hybrid here is
> still not a
> hybrid at all sinse still runs only on one type of
> fuel -
> gasoline.
In part of what you did not quote, I said that with
50 mile range battery pack you would rarely need to
use the gen at all.
I figured most would interpet that to mean charging
from the grid for about 90% of the transport fuel,
thus 2 sources of power, both gasoline/diesel/veg
oil/ethanol/propane gen or grid/RE electricity. YMMV
>
> When define hybrid it is a good idea to get
> consensus
> whether people talk about hybrid as 2 or more types
> of fuel (one can be electricity), or 2 or more types
> of
> propulsion system (ICE and/or electric motor).
In my case, 2 types of fuel as EV drive is so much
more eff that ICE/transmission is, it isn't worth
using the ICE drive part because without it, of lower
costs, weight, when most of the time you don't, won't
use it anyway.
Especially as electric costs are 1/3 of fuel costs
now and will only get larger as fuel costs rise,
probably to $3/gal this winter if it's a cold one.
>
> BTW, European Opels capable of switching between
> CNG and gasoline at the flip of the switch on the
> dash
> (true hybrids then) are not called hybrids, probably
> because they judge by the drive system type, not the
> accepted fuels. These cars still has only one ICE
> happen
> to eat 2 types of fuel.
True, but is a 2 fuel hybrid by many's difinitions,
just not as eff as EV drive versions are by a factor
or 2 or more.
By difinition, a serial hybrid would only have one
type of drive. Just as a parallel hybrid would have 2
types of drives.
Personally I don't care about what you call them as
long as they are very eff, low cost and low polluting
which basicly means it has to be EV drive.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Vcitor
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
Personally I don't care about what you call them as
long as they are very eff, low cost and low polluting
which basicly means it has to be EV drive.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
They may be 110% efficient, but whatever you call them you
want to be understood by others what are you talking about,
won't you?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although it's not really small, I'm using a Grainger 1P811 marine and
camper pump on both of the buggies.
BB
>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:19:37 -0500
>From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Roger Stockton wrote:
>
>> Zilla cooling
>
>> popular route using a submersible aquarium pump; not sure why more
>> people don't use readily available submersible 12V bilge pumps
>> instead...
>
>I'm trying to find a small 12v DC marine bilge pump, about 2 gpm..
>seen any this small (low amps mainly)?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Personally I don't care about what you call
> them as
> > long as they are very eff, low cost and low
> polluting
> > which basicly means it has to be EV drive.
> > HTH's,
> > Jerry Dycus
>
> They may be 110% efficient, but whatever you call
> them you
> want to be understood by others what are you talking
> about,
> won't you?
I was correct in my first post but was trying to be
nice to certain people who were taking things out of
context ;-)
I assume a certain level of knowledge here,
especially from older listees and expect them to read
and quote all the relative parts of a post if they are
going to be picky.
If I was to explain every detail, the post would
have been pages long.
But some need something to complain about and I try
to give something for everyone ;-))
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got the photos of the pre-show care of Dave & Deb online.
There's also a link to John's post, which was great, as always.
http://www.seattleeva.org/gasless_on_greenwood_2005/
If anyone else has photos they would like posted, just go ahead
and zip up the full sized images and send them directly to me.
( Don't send them to the list ) I'll get them in the album.
L8r
Ryan
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks I'll check that out. John
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV-List-Post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: acceleration problem/help
> I had a similar problem with my truck. It turned
> out to be a combination of a weak 12V battery (no
> DC/DC) and poor connections in the control wiring. The
> main contactor was controlled by the micro switch on
> the pot box. The voltage at the contactor was under
> 11V and that was borderline to get it to pull in.
> Hitting and releaseing the pedal a few times go it to
> go. Once I figured out what the problem was I replaced
> the 12V battery and most of the 12V control wiring.
> That solved the problem for me.
>
> TiM
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor (and all),
Thanks for the update and clarification on the last 5133 currently available
and the possibility that there might be more available again at some point
in the future at some price yet to be determined.
Steve and I are currently grappling with a particularly gnarly and nasty
engineering challenge (unrelated to the issue of motor selection) that has
slowed us up and is holding up further progress on the project until we're
able to solve it, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else grabs that last
5133 before I do.
But on the issue of motor selection and what had been my plans to go with
the Siemens 5133 (that is, until I just read on your website a few days ago
about it no longer being available), with the advice and input of a few
other EVers, I had been looking into and discussing some of the challenges
of adapting the 5133 with its long splined shaft to my 914's existing
transmission. These discussions included things like possibly machining an
additional bearing to support the 5133's long shaft as well as programming
the Simovert to limit the 5133's RPM to a maximum of 5600 (which is my
existing redline on the tach) so as to keep the tranny within its original
design specs and try to avoid the unfortunate fate that has befallen others
where a heavy flywheel spinning at 7-9000 RPM ends up bending that long
shaft. I had deemed this to be an acceptable solution since the maximum
operating efficiency point of the Siemens motors appears to in the 5-6000
RPM range (at around 88% efficiency). So using a 5500 RPM shift point would
let me drive in 2nd gear in town up to 46 mph and then shift up to 3rd above
that for highway driving up to 69 mph, and for those rare occasions where I
might need or want to briefly exceed 69 mph, I'd go up to 4th gear.
That's all well and good, although it does involve a bit of complexity.
However, in just the last two days that I have started to explore the MES
options (after finding out about the lack of availability of the Siemens
5133), I have started to realize and focus on the advantages of weight and
simplicity of going with the MES drive. The MES motor and inverter are a
fair bit lighter than comparable Siemens of the same power rating, and with
the MES I can get rid of the 914's heavy tranny and use the lightweight
Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox, plus there are none of those
aforementioned adaptor challenges or having to think about shifting gears
and all of that. The simplicity is very appealing (KISS) and would seem to
present a fairly robust drivetrain. Some have advocated going in this
direction by pointing out to me that almost every single OEM EV ever made
has used a single-gear reduction gearbox.
The only problem here is the inevitable trade-off and choice that must be
made between optimizing more for city driving or alternatively for
high-speed highway driving. When I run the numbers for my 914, it appears
to me that the 8.64:1 gear in the Carraro reduction gearbox has been
optimized more towards lower speed city driving. I guess that probably
makes sense for the primary application for this MES drivetrain over in
Europe, where I believe it is mostly being used in (OEM) tiny little
city-cars for urban driving, like the Smart EV, I think. But my application
is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed highway
driving. Just doing a rough, quick-and-dirty calculation, it looks like
maybe a 7:1 gear ratio would probably work better for me in that regard. So
I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure where
they're located) to ask if there are other gear options with different
ratios that they can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox
that mates to the MES motor.
Any thoughts on that, Victor or anyone else?
Thanks,
Charles
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Charles (and all),
One last 5133 motor will be available with either short Simovert 6-SV1
or Simotion inverter. Whom ever grabs it first. They probably will be
available in some future, but the cost is unknown. This one still goes
at surplus price (brand new motor and inverter of course).
Charles Whalen wrote:
Just checking Victor's website (http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm), I
noticed that some of the Siemens motors at the lower end of the power
scale
have been discontinued, including the 18kW (cont.) 5105 and the 30kW
(cont.)
5133, the latter of which is apparently no longer available for
individual
purchase in single quantities. It seems that Siemens must not have been
getting enough orders for the 5133 to keep up their production line on
it,
as they will now only make a special order production run of the 5133
motor
for large quantity bulk purchases of 50-200 units. That's a bummer for
me
as the 5133 was my preferred choice for my 914 conversion. The 45kW
(cont.)
Siemens 5135 (which apparently *is* still available) is a bit overpowered
and heavy for my particular application.
Does Victor or anyone over there in Europe know what's going on with
Siemens? Are they getting out of the motor business at the lower end of
the
power scale (as it doesn't look like they are replacing these
discontinued
motors with any newer models, from what I can tell from Victor's
website)?
I guess I'll have to look into the MES motors, although I don't believe
anyone over here in the States has done a conversion with them, at least
not
that I can see on the EV Album. So that's a pretty big unknown as far as
the lack of any empirical record; no one to ask about their experience
with
MES motors, although I heard that they are being used in some limited
production OEM EVs in Europe.
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
I had no idea about the headers containing thread content. In 5 years (ish)
that I've been on this list, I've never encountered such an issue. When I
post something new/unrelated, I have pretty much always just clicked reply
and changed the subject line.
I find it frustrating when people change the subject without changing the
subject line, since 99% of emails I just read the subject, the first few
lines (which is why it is annoying for me when people put lots of
un-necessary empty lines in theit posts) then click the delete button, and
a couple of times a week, need to go to the trash folder to fully read
something I had kept reading as I clicked and realised that the topic had
changed.
I think it is more important to have the subject line reflect the subject,
but maybe that's just me... ;^)
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles, I am working through the same issues with my new project. You will
find that without a transaxle, or a custom gearbox you will be hard pressed
to find anything in the 5:1 to 7:1 range. One thing you may consider is
getting a lightweight flywheel (which can handle higher RPMs), or getting
rid of the flywheel and the clutch all together. That is what I did with my
New Beetle project. I only shift it when it is stopped (although bold
people will shift on the fly). Most of the time it is in second gear for
around town use. Occasionally when I go on the highway, I just start off in
third. Not having a clutch has negative sides as well, but since you are
looking at fixed gear anyways...
I noticed on Rod's Discovery channel program he is using belts to drive the
motors, and this can give you the ratio you want with some fabrication.
I know Victor has a line on some 2:1 reducers and a two speed transaxle, it
may work for your application.
Good luck, keep us informed.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Whalen
Sent: June 29, 2005 7:50 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: discontinued Siemens motors
Victor (and all),
Thanks for the update and clarification on the last 5133 currently available
and the possibility that there might be more available again at some point
in the future at some price yet to be determined.
Steve and I are currently grappling with a particularly gnarly and nasty
engineering challenge (unrelated to the issue of motor selection) that has
slowed us up and is holding up further progress on the project until we're
able to solve it, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else grabs that last
5133 before I do.
But on the issue of motor selection and what had been my plans to go with
the Siemens 5133 (that is, until I just read on your website a few days ago
about it no longer being available), with the advice and input of a few
other EVers, I had been looking into and discussing some of the challenges
of adapting the 5133 with its long splined shaft to my 914's existing
transmission. These discussions included things like possibly machining an
additional bearing to support the 5133's long shaft as well as programming
the Simovert to limit the 5133's RPM to a maximum of 5600 (which is my
existing redline on the tach) so as to keep the tranny within its original
design specs and try to avoid the unfortunate fate that has befallen others
where a heavy flywheel spinning at 7-9000 RPM ends up bending that long
shaft. I had deemed this to be an acceptable solution since the maximum
operating efficiency point of the Siemens motors appears to in the 5-6000
RPM range (at around 88% efficiency). So using a 5500 RPM shift point would
let me drive in 2nd gear in town up to 46 mph and then shift up to 3rd above
that for highway driving up to 69 mph, and for those rare occasions where I
might need or want to briefly exceed 69 mph, I'd go up to 4th gear.
That's all well and good, although it does involve a bit of complexity.
However, in just the last two days that I have started to explore the MES
options (after finding out about the lack of availability of the Siemens
5133), I have started to realize and focus on the advantages of weight and
simplicity of going with the MES drive. The MES motor and inverter are a
fair bit lighter than comparable Siemens of the same power rating, and with
the MES I can get rid of the 914's heavy tranny and use the lightweight
Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox, plus there are none of those
aforementioned adaptor challenges or having to think about shifting gears
and all of that. The simplicity is very appealing (KISS) and would seem to
present a fairly robust drivetrain. Some have advocated going in this
direction by pointing out to me that almost every single OEM EV ever made
has used a single-gear reduction gearbox.
The only problem here is the inevitable trade-off and choice that must be
made between optimizing more for city driving or alternatively for
high-speed highway driving. When I run the numbers for my 914, it appears
to me that the 8.64:1 gear in the Carraro reduction gearbox has been
optimized more towards lower speed city driving. I guess that probably
makes sense for the primary application for this MES drivetrain over in
Europe, where I believe it is mostly being used in (OEM) tiny little
city-cars for urban driving, like the Smart EV, I think. But my application
is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed highway
driving. Just doing a rough, quick-and-dirty calculation, it looks like
maybe a 7:1 gear ratio would probably work better for me in that regard. So
I am planning to write MES in Switzerland and/or Carraro (not sure where
they're located) to ask if there are other gear options with different
ratios that they can put into that Carraro single-gear reduction gearbox
that mates to the MES motor.
Any thoughts on that, Victor or anyone else?
Thanks,
Charles
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Charles (and all),
>
> One last 5133 motor will be available with either short Simovert 6-SV1
> or Simotion inverter. Whom ever grabs it first. They probably will be
> available in some future, but the cost is unknown. This one still goes
> at surplus price (brand new motor and inverter of course).
>
>
> Charles Whalen wrote:
>> Just checking Victor's website (http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm),
>> I noticed that some of the Siemens motors at the lower end of the
>> power scale have been discontinued, including the 18kW (cont.) 5105
>> and the 30kW
>> (cont.)
>> 5133, the latter of which is apparently no longer available for
>> individual purchase in single quantities. It seems that Siemens must
>> not have been getting enough orders for the 5133 to keep up their
>> production line on it, as they will now only make a special order
>> production run of the 5133 motor for large quantity bulk purchases of
>> 50-200 units. That's a bummer for me as the 5133 was my preferred
>> choice for my 914 conversion. The 45kW
>> (cont.)
>> Siemens 5135 (which apparently *is* still available) is a bit
>> overpowered and heavy for my particular application.
>>
>> Does Victor or anyone over there in Europe know what's going on with
>> Siemens? Are they getting out of the motor business at the lower end
>> of the power scale (as it doesn't look like they are replacing these
>> discontinued motors with any newer models, from what I can tell from
>> Victor's website)?
>>
>> I guess I'll have to look into the MES motors, although I don't
>> believe anyone over here in the States has done a conversion with
>> them, at least not that I can see on the EV Album. So that's a
>> pretty big unknown as far as the lack of any empirical record; no one
>> to ask about their experience with MES motors, although I heard that
>> they are being used in some limited production OEM EVs in Europe.
>>
>> Charles
>
--- End Message ---
