EV Digest 4468
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Running caps over spec
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Running caps over spec
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PCF-20 Design Flaw
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: things that get on your nerves
by "Jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: PCF-20 Design Flaw
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bolt patterns used to our advantage. Low rolling tires.
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) What is the Exide Orbital Deep Cycle part number
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 9" Motor questions
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Component placement
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Owner repairs, was Re: things that get on your nerves
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Bolt patterns used to our advantage. Low rolling tires.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Bolt patterns used to our advantage. Low rolling tires.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Hair balls can swim.
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PCF-20 Design Flaw
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: FW: e-bike trans question
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Running caps over spec
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re:JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Quick question: If I fire up a circuit that uses 35 volt caps at 48 volts,
> what will happen?
> Likewise if I run a 35 volt rated N-FET at 48 volts, what happens? 35 volt
> diode?
Quick answer: BANG!
Electrolytic capacitors have a "surge" rating that is a bit higher than their
rated voltage that they can stand briefly. For a 35vdc capacitor, the surge
rating might be 42vdc. If you apply 42v, the part draws excessive curent and
starts geting hot. If this voltage is present too long, the water inside boils
and the vent ruptures, making an awful mess.
Semiconductors like MOSFETs and diodes have particular breakdown voltage
somewhere above the "rated" voltage. For example, a 100piv diode might actually
break down at anything from 101v to 200v. Nothing happens until you hit this
voltage; but when you do, the part INSTANTLY fails shorted.
--
Lee Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 55377 <leeahart_at_earthlink.net>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Makes sense; I will ratchet down the power on this 48 volt supply with a
well placed resistor on the trim circuitry to take it down to 35 volts.
Till the 50 volt parts come in. Thank you for saving me some time.
Chris
Lee Hart wrote:
Christopher Zach wrote:
Quick question: If I fire up a circuit that uses 35 volt caps at 48 volts, what
will happen?
Likewise if I run a 35 volt rated N-FET at 48 volts, what happens? 35 volt
diode?
Quick answer: BANG!
Electrolytic capacitors have a "surge" rating that is a bit higher than their
rated voltage that they can stand briefly. For a 35vdc capacitor, the surge rating might
be 42vdc. If you apply 42v, the part draws excessive curent and starts geting hot. If
this voltage is present too long, the water inside boils and the vent ruptures, making an
awful mess.
Semiconductors like MOSFETs and diodes have particular breakdown voltage somewhere above
the "rated" voltage. For example, a 100piv diode might actually break down at
anything from 101v to 200v. Nothing happens until you hit this voltage; but when you do,
the part INSTANTLY fails shorted.
--
Lee Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 55377 <leeahart_at_earthlink.net>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I said in my post, Rich will likely disagree. Comments inserted,
At 12:02 PM 6/30/2005, you wrote:
Flaw???
Just to clear up some points in this reply, there will be others.
Dip Sw #2 is time out from start of charge. EXACTY What you should have used
as a solid timed charge.
That isn't what I need. It would be nice if this would limit the
total time, however.
PFC chargers are talored for Lead Acid AGM. We don't advertise a hands of
Nickel based charge algorythm.
Since Ni based chemistry basicly WILL go into thermal run a way. If your end
voltage is set too high.
Your Flaw is a needed feature on MOST of my clents PbLa demands.
Actually, lead-acid batteries will do exactly what I described.
The difference is, the pack will be quickly ruined instead of just
suffering some degree of damage.
NiCads spend a longer time in the constant voltage stage than do
lead-acid batteries. Thus, they have a greater chance of entering thermal
runaway during that stage.
You were warned...
You said "it works perfect, no problems"... When I asked how it was going.
We never got into deatails.
I took this as you knew about Nicad thermal run away, and had it covered.
Clearly you didn't
You assumed that we had a latch on the voltage enabled timer channel.
You never asked.
You can bet there will be a switch to cover this new feature on the next
controller PCB turn.
Well, I'm glad you are taking this seriously.
I would be glad to upgrade your controller PCB when this new rev comes on
line.
Thank you very much. I will take you up on that.
All your efforts can be solved with turning down your voltage peak setting
by about 5 volts. And being extra carfull when you park the pack Hot.
The power input timer prevents major damage now.
I assumed you knew this about Ni Cads I do and So does Joe. It was a matter
of asking.
Lead-acid does exactly the same thing. (Only worse.) During the
constant-voltage stage, the batteries really get warm. As they warm up, the
voltage goes down. As the voltage goes down, the current goes up. As the
current goes up, the batteries get REALLY warm. Then, if they get hot
enough, the voltage dips below the trigger voltage and the timer resets. A
few hours later, the plastic on the cases will start to melt.
Again, because NiCads spend more time in the finish charge, they
have a greater window of opportunity to enter thermal runaway. The problem
is the same with lead-acid, but the chances are reduced.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I'm a little new here... your website is www.metricmind.com, right?
thanks,
Jon Davis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: things that get on your nerves
> Paul G. wrote:
>
> > Not commonly done in the USA. The full service manuals are available for
> > my Toyotas, and most other cars and trucks. I have purchased the 3 books
> > that make up the service manual for my 2002 Prius, using them I could
> > take any part of the vehicle apart (including the HV system.)
> >
> > Paul "neon" G.
>
> Try to purchase the source code for Prius ECU. You'r just as entitled
> to it as to the service manual, don't you?
>
> My point was, manufacturer can encourage or discourage doing something
> to *their* product (even if it is *your* car now) by releasing
> some info but not other info - for good reasons you and I may or may
> not like. Never releasing safety bag activation controller info
> is a good thing for people in my opinion - no one will (hopefully)
> tinker with it.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Rich will likely disagree, but there is a subtle, but very serious design
> flaw in the PFC-20 charger.
>
> >> The problem <<<
> The finish charge timer resets if the pack voltage drops.
>
> >>> Why this is bad <<<
> If your batteries go into thermal runaway at the end of the charge
> cycle,
> during the timed constant voltage stage, the timer resets and the charger
> keeps humping in amps forever. After a few hours of this, your battery pack
> will be ruined. Since this is the part of the charge cycle where the most
> heat is generated, this is the part of the cycle that the batteries are
> most likely to go into thermal runaway and when the voltage will most
> likely drop.
Bill,
The SAFT spec has maximum module temperature limits and temperature
compensated voltage limits during charge. If the module temperatures
or voltages exceed these limits charging is supposed to stop, regardless
of the "pilot value".
Merely pumping the AH back into the modules without monitoring the
module temperatures will work most of the time, but not when they get
hot. If your charging system doesn't monitor the module temperatures
you risk overheating and/or overcharging the modules.
Maybe you can connect temperature sensors (one per box) to the HOTREG
line on the regbus...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops... The Insight uses Bridgstone Potenza RE92, not Proxima's (which
are a not even Bridgestone.
My bad.
Andrew
Christopher Zach wrote:
I use Portenza 165R14 tires on my Prizm. They are stock on Prius cars,
and have been upgraded for extra load capacity. No range difference from
my stock (and now 10 year old) Invictas.
Chris
Andrew Letton wrote:
Honda Insight wheels are 14", aluminum, and light. (I don't remember
the weight). They come stock with Bridgestone ProximaRR (?)
165-65R-14 low rolling resistance tires.
hth,
Andrew
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I'm looking for the lightest 14 inch wheels
Stock wheels are all cast alum and might all weigh about the same.
I'd like to know how much cast wheels weigh, and how much aftermarket
forged alum ones weigh.
You can get light weight 14x7 and 14x8 inch wheels, or some 15x3.5 or
4" wheels(or wider)...
I'd suggest Welds since they are light and "cheap"(relatively and
comparatively).
If you contact them about the weights, please post the info.
http://www.weldracing.com/Weld_Racing/wheels/sport.shtm
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2233&prmenbr=361
or
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2235&prmenbr=361
There are lighter wheels, but they are not recommended for street
driving..
http://www.bogartracingwheels.com/
Expensive though..
http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=837
Check out this pic of the older VW Bug 175R15 tire on a 3.5" wheel:
http://img2.uploadimages.net/702326red.jpg (narrow tire looks huge for
some reason!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I finally bolted in the RX-7's new Z1K and fired it up last Friday night,
after putting in a new clutch pack and a junkyard transmission. The
controller worked flawlessly, until I took the car to the car wash! I was
in a hurry to get the car going for our annual Good Old Days parade on
Saturday morning, and didn't put a cover over the controller and hairball
and the hairball got wet. I had adjusted the new throttle pot after going
to the car wash, and at first thought that was the problem, but it wasn't!
After drying out the hairball the LED indicated it was happy, but it
wouldn't spin the motor. Finally hooked up a laptop Sunday, and after
setting it to the defaults the hairball was happy again and my daughter WAS
driving electrically (and not driving the wife's Prius!), until today. I've
been using some YT prototype batteries I bought used years ago and they had
been working fine, but the car had been parked for over a year and a half
with an occasional maintenance charge, and although we've been doing
shallow cycles this week, I committed batteryacide. I drove the car to a
neighboring town and had to limp home. After arriving at home five of the
batteries were below 12 volts with no load, and some of them were venting,
with one too hot to touch!
Anyway, I'm going to get some quotes on both YT's and the new Orbitals, and
was wondering if the Orbital part number for the deep cycle battery is
something like a 34XCD for the extreme, and is the 34DC-36 marine deep
cycle the same design? I need to decide if I will just replace the worst
batteries with new ones, which I could probably do since I'm using modular
chargers, or replace the whole pack and increase the voltage.
Thanks,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, June 30, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Rush wrote:
My motor is an ADC 9", it is already *installed* in the truck, at
least attached to the adapter plate and transmission, the motor clamp
still has to be attached to the truck's motor mounts. I have a couple
questions:
Which brings up a few questions I have.
When designing and fabricating the mount do you just hang the motor off
the transmission/adapter plate as Rush describes to identify the
correct position?
To what extent does a cradle type mount provide support vs prevent
motor rotation? Is the choice between a cradle mount vs the "torque
arm" connected to the rear of the motor a matter of personal preference
(or do you still need a cradle with the torque connector)?
Thanks
John in Sacramento
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When laying out the components for a conversion using flooded batteries
and a Zilla controller is it recommended to put the zilla or hairball
either above or below the top of the batteries, or does it not matter?
Unless I am mistaken, I seem to have read somewhere that it is
recommended to install some components (charger?) below the tops of
flooded batteries top prevent ignition of gasses, but I'm not sure if
it applies to the controller.
Thanks,
John in Sacramento
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
>> Schematics are often available for most products. In the "old days,"
>> it wasn't uncommon for the schematic to be found inside the owners
>> manual.
And, it is *still* common enough. You can get service manuals which
include wiring diagrams and theory of operation for many of products;
cars, TVs, radios, test equipment, etc.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I always appreciated that so I could see how the thing works.
> But I'm in minority and these days it's a waste of paper.
> People throw away good TVs vecause of damaged power cord.
Actually, including them free with every product has always been a waste
of paper. Rarely has anything more than a bare minimum of information
been included as "standard". But the service information was often
available upon request, sometimes free and sometimes for a modest fee.
>> Otmar could publish his schematic, but building one from that that
>> *works* would be a considerable challenge:
> Tell this to those Chinese who will produce Zilla clone in a heart bit.
Nope; not a chance! First, because the schematic is only a brief outline
of a product. Second, because it is also software-controlled, and the
software is not documented. Third, because there are so many subtleties
in building any such high-tech product. And most importantly, because
there is no *reason* for them to even try! There's no money it it!
It is a false assumption to think that providing service information
will lead to cloning. For one, any company that wants to "clone" a
product begins by reverse-engineering it -- that means literally buying
one, taking it apart, and meticulously documenting not only the
schematic, but also the entire parts list, mechanical layout, PC boards,
analyzing all the materials, measuring all the voltages and tolerances,
disassembling all the software, etc. Any talented engineer can do it.
This is the only way to get *accurate* and *complete* enough data to
actually duplicate it.
Second, in those cases where a company *has* provided totally "open
source" documentation for a product, it STILL hasn't been cloned by any
more than an insignificant fraction of customers on a one-off basis. For
example, Heath Company always provided this kind of documentation for
all their products. While a few hard-core hobbyists duplicated a few
kits "the hard way", the number had a totally insignificant effect on
sales.
> Not having any documnetation discourages such attempts and takes
> responsibility for the consequences off the manufacturer.
No, it doesn't. The sort of person that will fix things himself will
STILL attempt to do so, even without a schematic. I know -- I myself am
an example! The sort of person who won't fix things himself SITLL won't
try, even if the schematic is right there in the manual.
That leaves just a few people who wouldn't have tried to fix it without
documentation, but might try it WITH documentation. In this case, there
is ample evidence that manufacturers put all those pesky disclaimers
throughout the service information. "Warning! No User Serviceable Parts
Inside! Qualified Service Personnel Only!"
Sure... in a country of 400 million people, you can find a greedy
lawyer, an ignorant judge, and a clueless jury who will make a bad
decision and award some idiot's widow a big judgement for a mistake. But
that is the exception; not the rule! Yes, such mistakes happen, and get
lots of publicity. But what ALSO happens is that the case is appealed,
and subsequent judges and juries will correct such mistakes. The
corrections rarely get any significant press coverage.
> You're only speaking from the consumer point of view.
> Try to manufacture something for sale for others and your
> opinion will change quickly.
No. I've worked for Eastman Kodak, Tech Microsystems, Heathkit,
Robertshaw Controls, and Honeywell; EVERY ONE of them produced service
manuals for their products, and anyone (including customers) could buy
them. All of these companies realized that to be successful, their
products required competent service and repairs. Without good
information, servicing was impractical, and their reputation would
suffer. And so, they produced and sold manuals to make their products
serviceable.
Conversely, lots of companies that were NOT successful in the long term
chose NOT to provide service information. A customer only needs ONE bad
experience with a product that fails and can't be fixed can make them an
enemy for life!
No; I am not talking about cheap toys from WalMart that fail the day
after Christmas, and that people toss in the trash without any attempt
to return them or get them fixed. I'm talking about expensive EV parts,
that one reasonably expects will last many years.
With regard to servicing Woodbury's Tango EV, or Otmar's Zilla
controller, or Rudman's chargers: There are two possible extremes:
1. They can keep all service information secret.
In this case, the manufacturer has to handle all servicing themselves.
This means setting up and funding a service organization, stocking
parts, training people, and dealing with shipping to/from customers.
Customers expect service NOW! when something breaks. So all these
resources are either sitting around idle waiting for something to break;
or you have to take time away from normal production on an emergency
basis when something goes wrong. Either, way, it's expensive. There are
no economies of scale until you are making millions of products so
servicing occupies at least some people full-time.
While the product is still in production, there is a tendency to assume
"If a customer has a problem, I'll just swap it for a new one." This
works if servicing is VERY rare; but gets ruinously expensive FAST if
you have many failures, or as you start to sell any significant number
of products.
And as your product ages, you are forced to keep stocking parts and
doing repairs on products you no longer produce. This is a big strain on
resources. Old products become a "boat anchor" holding back your
engineering and production capabilities, crippling your ability to
produce new products.
Having a monopoly on servicing means the manufacturer is compelled to
charge very high prices for service, or put minimal effort into service,
or perhaps not even service his product at all. But if he does this,
customers who have servicing problems will HATE you forever! Bad service
will produce a hostile customer base that will actively look for
alternatives. The manufacturer has created an environment that breeds
competitors!
2. They can make them "open source", and supply full service info:
In this case, the manufacturer can (potentially) ignore service after
the warranty period. There is enough information so the customer can fix
it themselves, or at least find someone else who can. More likely, the
manufacturer will choose to service it when it is economical, but not if
it is too much trouble.
The product will be much easier and cheaper to get serviced, since
customers can go to the "lowest bidder". Customers will be happier, and
more likely to recommend it to others.
The "independents" who service the product for the manufacturer are
likely to learn a lot; some are even going to learn more than the
manufacturer! If the manufacturer has a good relationship with them,
they form a very cheap, resourceful pool of helpers. Just as Linux
benefits from many minds working on it, hardware can also benefit from
many hands playing with it. On many occasions, I have had customers call
me on products I designed to describe a problem they have seen AND to
describe a way to fix it that is superior to what I had thought of!
A few cheapskates will attempt to clone one from the service information
alone; but they are likely to fail. Since they wouldn't have bought the
product anyway, this represents no loss of sales.
If the manufacturer goes out of business, the product can live on in the
"afterlife", being serviced and maintained by others essentially
forever.
In practice...
Both of these approaches represent extremes. Few companies will pick
either one in its purest form. Most will go somewhere in between -- they
will release SOME service information, but not tell everything. They
will stock some spare parts, but not others. They will fix some units,
but not all. They won't charge the true, full price for repairs and try
to make a profit on service, because if they did, they would alienate
customers too much -- they accept a loss on servicing as a cost of doing
business, and a way to get "educated" as to what was done wrong on last
year's model.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this pic of the older VW Bug 175R15 tire on a 3.5" wheel:
http://img2.uploadimages.net/702326red.jpg (narrow tire looks huge for
some reason!)
This link didn't work. LR.......Thanks......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow that would be perfect. Are they the 100 bolt pattern?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Bolt patterns used to our advantage. Low rolling tires.
Honda Insight wheels are 14", aluminum, and light. (I don't remember the
weight). They come stock with Bridgestone ProximaRR (?) 165-65R-14 low
rolling resistance tires.
hth,
Andrew
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I'm looking for the lightest 14 inch wheels
Stock wheels are all cast alum and might all weigh about the same. I'd
like to know how much cast wheels weigh, and how much aftermarket
forged alum ones weigh.
You can get light weight 14x7 and 14x8 inch wheels, or some 15x3.5 or
4" wheels(or wider)...
I'd suggest Welds since they are light and "cheap"(relatively and
comparatively).
If you contact them about the weights, please post the info.
http://www.weldracing.com/Weld_Racing/wheels/sport.shtm
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2233&prmenbr=361
or
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2235&prmenbr=361
There are lighter wheels, but they are not recommended for street
driving..
http://www.bogartracingwheels.com/
Expensive though..
http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=45&products_id=837
Check out this pic of the older VW Bug 175R15 tire on a 3.5" wheel:
http://img2.uploadimages.net/702326red.jpg (narrow tire looks huge for
some reason!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <. The
controller worked flawlessly, until I took the car to the car wash!
Saturday morning, and didn't put a cover over the controller and hairball
and the hairball got wet.
A few weeks ago I was in one of those Florida down pours where it rained so
hard , so fast the there was water deep in the streets . So I'm driving
home , and start to go through a flooded part in the 4 lane high way . Lots
of traffic and I'm starting to worry the water is going to come in the truck
when a guy with these big tired 4x4 speeds past and there is a wave that
covers the truck and it stops . some other kind people help push the truck
off the road into a well lit plaza . 30 min later it stops raining and I
start doing some test with my meter , error light is on , on the hair ball .
I get a ride home to steal a hair ball and controller form another project
and head back. buy the time I get back the plaza which had 2 inches of rain
in it was dry ( now 10pm) ! that's Florida . I took out the hair ball and
water ran out of it as I held it up . installed the other , and drove home .
On my way home I'm thinking what a good idea this hair ball thing is , I can
get another and don't need to send the whole controller in , . The next day
I test the , now dry hair ball out and IT WORKED . I didn't need to re
program it or anything .
Steve Clunn ,
I had adjusted the new throttle pot after going
to the car wash, and at first thought that was the problem, but it wasn't!
After drying out the hairball the LED indicated it was happy, but it
wouldn't spin the motor. Finally hooked up a laptop Sunday, and after
setting it to the defaults the hairball was happy again and my daughter
WAS
driving electrically (and not driving the wife's Prius!),
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My charger patent no. 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov has a over-ride timeout that
shuts off no matter what when the max anticipated charge time is realized
(presently 11 hours on my vehicle). This is on top of the IEI dv/dt=0
charge routine. It also restarts if the battery voltage drops later
(maintanence charge) and if the bettery temp gets below 50F (for warming the
batteries). This was recommended by Trojan at the time (late 90's). Mark
www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:13 AM
Subject: RE: PCF-20 Design Flaw
> Bill
> I have a Zivan NG3 which has failed to go thru its correct cycles at
> least twice. Once when I lent it to a friend & once when I was charging
> at another friend's house. I am not certain where in the cycle the fault
> occurred but it was sucking full mains current at the time judging by
> the hot extension lead. It filled the interior with sulphurous fumes
> which attacked copper & silver leaving tarnished films.
> Some AGM batteries got hot enough to distort. The cars still goes but
> has reduced range.
> It has never given trouble at home base. I don't have grid power here
> but a 10kVA semi-square inverter. The charging current is less than for
> grid power, taking about 10A from the inverter instead of about 12A-13A
> for mains. Perhaps there is a reason here.
> Timer for me too.
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, 30 June 2005 4:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: PCF-20 Design Flaw
>
> Rich will likely disagree, but there is a subtle, but very serious
> design
> flaw in the PFC-20 charger.
>
> >> The problem <<<
> The finish charge timer resets if the pack voltage drops.
>
> >>> Why this is bad <<<
> If your batteries go into thermal runaway at the end of the
> charge cycle,
> during the timed constant voltage stage, the timer resets and the
> charger
> keeps humping in amps forever. After a few hours of this, your battery
> pack
> will be ruined. Since this is the part of the charge cycle where the
> most
> heat is generated, this is the part of the cycle that the batteries are
> most likely to go into thermal runaway and when the voltage will most
> likely drop.
>
> Rich doesn't see this as a problem, but it just happened to my
> $10,000
> NiCad battery pack. I see it as a problem that should be corrected,
> needless to say. My pack may not not totally ruined, but has lost about
> 25%
> capacity. I will see how it behaves in the next few days. Maybe they
> will
> perk up a bit, but that is unlikely. Perhaps it will die completely. We
> shall see.
>
> >>>>> The Fix <<<<<<
> The "work around" patch for this inherent design flaw is to
> install a
> timer in series with the input power cord. You set the timer for the
> maximum hours that you think it will take to charge the pack. If the
> charger doesn't shut down, the timer will limit the damage to your pack.
> I
> just installed one of these. A bit late, but it may prevent further
> damage
> to my expensive battery pack.
>
> >>> What other chargers do <<<
> The Zivan line of chargers does not have this design flaw. When
> the pack
> voltage reaches the trigger point, (and stays at or above the trigger
> voltage for 30 seconds or so) the finish charge timer locks in. No
> matter
> what the voltage does after that point, the charger will shut off at the
>
> end of the finish period you have programmed in. This is the correct way
>
> for the finish timer to work.
>
> There is also a timer for the total charge time. This timer is
> set so that
> the charger cannot stay on longer than it would take to supply just over
>
> 100% of the capacity of the pack. A ten amp charger connected to a 100
> a-hr
> pack would have this timer set for 11 hrs, for example. This is what my
> new
> in-line timer does.
>
> >>> What I plan to do <<<
>
> In the next week or so, (if my pack doesn't die completely,) I
> plan to
> build a micro-processor control for my PFC-20. It will read the E-meter
> and
> control the operation of the PFC-20 via the Reg-Bus port (or perhaps I
> may
> go inside.) This will be a pain in the butt to do, but I don't see much
> alternative.
>
>
> Bill Dube'
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can we get the diameter of your rear wheel/tire.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of BR Deshpande
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 7:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: e-bike trans question
>
> Hi All,
>
> I have some questions about the choice of rear sprocket for my dirt bike
> project. The sprocket will be chain driven by a 36 V etek.
>
> Doing some quick and dirty calculations, i came to the (erroneous?)
> conclusion that at the top rpm of the motor 3600, if i want reasonable top
> wheel speeds of say 25-30 mph i need to use a teeth ratio of 1:12.
> I have been unsuccesful in finding sprockets. The highest i have found so
> far is 12:72 (front-rear).
>
> The other issue is regarding freewheeling. I am not sure if my Curtis
> 1201 supports this. It looks like I have to do it mechanically.
>
> I would like some ideas about how to achieve a top speed of 30mph (a
> jackshaft for an intermediate step down?) using my current setup and
> secondly on what would be a good way to do the freewheeling. Thanks in
> advance
>
> B.R. Deshpande.
>
> --
> "The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
> -Bertrand Russell.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Christopher Zach wrote:
> > Quick question: If I fire up a circuit that uses 35 volt caps at 48 volts,
> > what will happen?
> > Likewise if I run a 35 volt rated N-FET at 48 volts, what happens? 35 volt
> > diode?
>
> Quick answer: BANG!
>
> Electrolytic capacitors have a "surge" rating that is a bit higher than their
> rated voltage that they can stand briefly. For a 35vdc capacitor, the surge
> rating might be 42vdc. If you apply 42v, the part draws excessive curent and
> starts geting hot. If this voltage is present too long, the water inside
> boils and the vent ruptures, making an awful mess.
>
And the smell of a popped electrolytic capacitor is very distinctively foul!
It lingers in your lab for days or weeks letting every know you did something
wrong.
Fried semiconductors smell bad too, but IMHO, no where near as bad as fried
caps.
If I recall correctly, I was taught to always over-spec the parts by 10-25% of
the expected max voltage. That way you have lots of head room. And remember
most resistors are only 20% accurate on their values. Usually this works fine,
but you have to remember to use more precise (and expensive) parts where it
does matter.
Also, don't entirely trust the ratings on manufactured boards. The original
design may have been over-spec'd, but then the bean counters substituted
cheaper parts.
I burned up a motor controller in my (Vepsa styled) electric scooter that way.
The spec said that it was automatically current limited to 40 amps @ 24 volts.
This is within the scooter's demands for cruising at 25 kph (15 mph) on the
flat, but it always went into current limit on acceration or hills.
One day the Big Cap blew up very dramatically. I call the maker and talked to
an engineer.
He said that it did that if you pushed the current limit for too long. It
seems when the board detected a high current, it dropped the pulse width.
Then, since the current had dropped to safe levels, it allowed the pulse width
to rise again. rinse and repeat.
It would keep cycling this way till the cap overheated and popped.
Now my scooter has a Golf-Tech rebuilt golf cart controller rated at 200+ amps
at 24-36 volts. This one doesn't even get warm on the 30 to 80 amps the
scooter pulls.
Mike Shipway
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is 2 methods that I would attempt if it were my motor.
Method 1. In your last pics you show the puller attached to the end bell with a
2 jawed puller. I don't like using 2
jawed pullers on aluminum but you have to use what you have, right?
First, spray liquid wrench or some other penetrating oil onto the bearing where
it meets the shaft and let it soak for
a few minutes. NOTE: WD-40 is NOT oil, nor a lubricant, it is a cleaner and
will remove oil.
Then tighten up the puller fairly tight, you should see your jaws start to pull
your square tubes away from the
endbell as the force bends the endbell and takes up any slack in your mounting
bolts. Once it is fairly tight,
probably about as tight as you can turn the wrench, give the end of the puller
a REALLY hard wrap with a large
hammer. Only do this once. The bearing should jump off the shaft.
One other thing, the pic isn't clear on. Does the puller have a cone on it's
end? and the tip of the cone is inside
the motor shaft? If so take the cone off, it will expand the diameter of the
end of the shaft. The puller should
have an optional flat end piece.
Method 2. Build up two stands that are slightly taller than the length of the
armature from the endidee face of the
endbell to the tailshaft. You'll see what I mean in a minute. Then take two
about 15" long each flat pieces of steel
and inch or so wide preferable 1/4" thick, but you have to use what fits. These
pieces will go across the two stands
and you will hang the armature from them with the steel pieces up tight to the
motor shaft. So the end bell and
bearing will be above the straps and the windings will be below the straps. Put
something soft under the arm to catch
it when it falls. Put a piece of wood on the end of the shaft and hammer away
driving the arm down. Don't hit the
shaft directly with the hammer or you will mushroom it. (But that can be fixed
too, it you have a file or preferably a
grinder))
Good Luck!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Nick Viera
> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:58 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
>
> Hi,
>
> Here's an update on my progress with my Jeep's motor bearing change out, and
> transmission/transfer case swap.
>
> Today I was able to complete the transmission/ transfer case swap on my
> Jeep. As you may remember from previous posts, my old transmission was
> having problems (vibration, noise, getting _really_ hot). I would've just
> bought a replacement transmission, but the transmission used in my Jeep
> (Peugeot BA-10/5 5-speed) was only used in 1988-1989.5 model year Cherokees
> and is known to be a crappy transmission.
>
> So I instead decided to upgrade to the better built Aisin Warner AX-15
> 5-Speed transmission that was used in Cherokees from 1989.5 to the end of
> production in 2001. This transmission is pretty much a direct drop in
> replacement for the Peugeot, except for a different mount and slight
> differences in how the transfer case shift linkage attaches to it.
> However, the AX-15 also has a 23-spline output shaft verses the 21-spline
> shaft on the Peugeot. This means I would've had to replace the main shaft of
> my NP231 transfer-case to get it to mate up to the AX-15.
> I didn't feel like tearing into my transfer-case. So instead I opted to get
> a new NP231 transfer-case with a 23-spine input, based on the feeling that
> I'd rather replace both units now, and tear the Jeep apart once, rather than
> have the old original transfer-case die sometime soon down the road.
>
> Pictures of the transmission/transfer-case swap:
> http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
>
> -- Switching thoughts --
>
> I've also made some progress regarding my oozing motor. I rented a 2/3 Jaw
> puller and successfully pulled the comm end bearing with the puller.
> That bearing came off pretty easy.
>
> Then I was thinking of a way to use the jaw puller on the drive end of the
> motor. I tried bolting two pieces of steel square tubing to the end bell
> face. These two pieces of square steel had holes drilled in them so I stuck
> the jaws of the puller in the holes, and tried using the puller as usual.
> This approach didn't work... after applying a good amount of pressure the
> bearing/end bell still didn't move any, and my square tube pieces began to
> move around a little. I think that this approach didn't work either because
> my square tube pieces weren't symmetrical enough...
> so the pulling force wasn't perfectly straight out, or that bearing is on
> the motor shaft _really_ tight?
>
> I still haven't tried heating things up (don't really have the means to),
> and I've only tried taking a mallet/hammer to the shaft a few times to no
> avail (I'm probably just not hitting it hard enough because I have this fear
> of damaging the shaft).
>
> What I really think would help this situation is to have one of those
> pullers that have a plate that you can bolt on to a flat surface (like the
> motor end bell face). However, all the pullers of this type that the auto
> part store has have plates with bolt holes about 7.5" or less apart. This
> doesn't help as the bolts on my motor end bell are closer to 9" apart.
> Ideas?
>
> Pictures of the motor work thus far are also located at:
> http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php (near the bottom)
>
> This last motor bearing is the only thing left keeping me from getting my
> Jeep back together and on the road. I'm eager and nervous to see how the new
> transmission/ transfer case will perform (hoping it'll be a big
> improvement). :-)
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
> Nick Viera wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> A big thanks to all that participated in this post... you've taught me
>> a lot about my motor!
>>
>> After looking online at several places and locally, I decided to buy
>> from a local industrial distributor. They sold both SKF and Koyo
>> bearings, but I ended up buying the Koyo bearings because they were
>> about half the cost of comparable SKF bearings. It ended up being $19
>> for the main bearing (6207-2RDC3) and $15 for the comm-end bearing
>> (6305-2RDC3).
>>
>> I still haven't been able to get the end bell + bearing off the motor
>> shaft, but now that I've read your suggestions, I'll pull the whole
>> armature out tonight and give it another shot, then let you all know
>> how it went ;-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not a good sign when you have to reply to your own message to correct
mistakes.
In the text below, inside somehow got spelled endidee...
Also an addendum to method one.
If the bearing doesn't jump off the shaft, but did move slightly, do it again.
I mean hit it REALLY REALLY hard. You have a lot of mass there that your trying
to get to vibrate.
You should be hitting the end of the puller in a manner like you're trying to
drive the screw lengthwise down through
the motor shaft. Is that clear?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:23 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
>
> This is 2 methods that I would attempt if it were my motor.
>
>
> Method 1. In your last pics you show the puller attached to the end bell
> with a 2 jawed puller. I don't like using 2 jawed pullers on aluminum but
> you have to use what you have, right?
>
> First, spray liquid wrench or some other penetrating oil onto the bearing
> where it meets the shaft and let it soak for a few minutes. NOTE: WD-40 is
> NOT oil, nor a lubricant, it is a cleaner and will remove oil.
>
> Then tighten up the puller fairly tight, you should see your jaws start to
> pull your square tubes away from the endbell as the force bends the endbell
> and takes up any slack in your mounting bolts. Once it is fairly tight,
> probably about as tight as you can turn the wrench, give the end of the
> puller a REALLY hard wrap with a large hammer. Only do this once. The
> bearing should jump off the shaft.
>
> One other thing, the pic isn't clear on. Does the puller have a cone on it's
> end? and the tip of the cone is inside the motor shaft? If so take the cone
> off, it will expand the diameter of the end of the shaft. The puller should
> have an optional flat end piece.
>
>
> Method 2. Build up two stands that are slightly taller than the length of
> the armature from the endidee face of the endbell to the tailshaft. You'll
> see what I mean in a minute. Then take two about 15" long each flat pieces
> of steel and inch or so wide preferable 1/4" thick, but you have to use what
> fits. These pieces will go across the two stands and you will hang the
> armature from them with the steel pieces up tight to the motor shaft. So the
> end bell and bearing will be above the straps and the windings will be below
> the straps. Put something soft under the arm to catch it when it falls. Put
> a piece of wood on the end of the shaft and hammer away driving the arm
> down. Don't hit the shaft directly with the hammer or you will mushroom it.
> (But that can be fixed too, it you have a file or preferably a
> grinder))
>
> Good Luck!
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated,
> it develops into Arrogance, which is often fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
>
> Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address; send a request to ryan at
> evsourcecom
>
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Nick Viera
>> Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:58 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here's an update on my progress with my Jeep's motor bearing change
>> out, and transmission/transfer case swap.
>>
>> Today I was able to complete the transmission/ transfer case swap on
>> my Jeep. As you may remember from previous posts, my old transmission
>> was having problems (vibration, noise, getting _really_ hot). I
>> would've just bought a replacement transmission, but the transmission
>> used in my Jeep (Peugeot BA-10/5 5-speed) was only used in 1988-1989.5
>> model year Cherokees and is known to be a crappy transmission.
>>
>> So I instead decided to upgrade to the better built Aisin Warner AX-15
>> 5-Speed transmission that was used in Cherokees from 1989.5 to the end
>> of production in 2001. This transmission is pretty much a direct drop
>> in replacement for the Peugeot, except for a different mount and
>> slight differences in how the transfer case shift linkage attaches to it.
>> However, the AX-15 also has a 23-spline output shaft verses the
>> 21-spline shaft on the Peugeot. This means I would've had to replace
>> the main shaft of my NP231 transfer-case to get it to mate up to the
> AX-15.
>> I didn't feel like tearing into my transfer-case. So instead I opted
>> to get a new NP231 transfer-case with a 23-spine input, based on the
>> feeling that I'd rather replace both units now, and tear the Jeep
>> apart once, rather than have the old original transfer-case die sometime
> soon down the road.
>>
>> Pictures of the transmission/transfer-case swap:
>> http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php
>>
>> -- Switching thoughts --
>>
>> I've also made some progress regarding my oozing motor. I rented a 2/3
>> Jaw puller and successfully pulled the comm end bearing with the puller.
>> That bearing came off pretty easy.
>>
>> Then I was thinking of a way to use the jaw puller on the drive end of
>> the motor. I tried bolting two pieces of steel square tubing to the
>> end bell face. These two pieces of square steel had holes drilled in
>> them so I stuck the jaws of the puller in the holes, and tried using the
> puller as usual.
>> This approach didn't work... after applying a good amount of pressure
>> the bearing/end bell still didn't move any, and my square tube pieces
>> began to move around a little. I think that this approach didn't work
>> either because my square tube pieces weren't symmetrical enough...
>> so the pulling force wasn't perfectly straight out, or that bearing is
>> on the motor shaft _really_ tight?
>>
>> I still haven't tried heating things up (don't really have the means
>> to), and I've only tried taking a mallet/hammer to the shaft a few
>> times to no avail (I'm probably just not hitting it hard enough
>> because I have this fear of damaging the shaft).
>>
>> What I really think would help this situation is to have one of those
>> pullers that have a plate that you can bolt on to a flat surface (like
>> the motor end bell face). However, all the pullers of this type that
>> the auto part store has have plates with bolt holes about 7.5" or less
>> apart. This doesn't help as the bolts on my motor end bell are closer to
> 9" apart.
>> Ideas?
>>
>> Pictures of the motor work thus far are also located at:
>> http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery4_3.php (near the bottom)
>>
>> This last motor bearing is the only thing left keeping me from getting
>> my Jeep back together and on the road. I'm eager and nervous to see
>> how the new transmission/ transfer case will perform (hoping it'll be
>> a big improvement). :-)
>>
>> --
>> -Nick
>> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
>> ---------------------------
>>
>> Nick Viera wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> A big thanks to all that participated in this post... you've taught
>>> me a lot about my motor!
>>>
>>> After looking online at several places and locally, I decided to buy
>>> from a local industrial distributor. They sold both SKF and Koyo
>>> bearings, but I ended up buying the Koyo bearings because they were
>>> about half the cost of comparable SKF bearings. It ended up being $19
>>> for the main bearing (6207-2RDC3) and $15 for the comm-end bearing
>>> (6305-2RDC3).
>>>
>>> I still haven't been able to get the end bell + bearing off the motor
>>> shaft, but now that I've read your suggestions, I'll pull the whole
>>> armature out tonight and give it another shot, then let you all know
>>> how it went ;-)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
