EV Digest 4488
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: LiIon vs LiPoly
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC Charger positives
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Engine Generator Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Engine Generator Question
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Engine Generator Question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Martin Staionette. Three passenger. Three wheel woody.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) 19 63 Zeta
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Engine Generator: Pusher trailer option re: Jerry
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: State of Charge calculations
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) C O R R E C T I O N: EVLN(Ferrari
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: LiIon vs LiPoly
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: PFC Chargers...Let's hear the Positive Side!
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Engine Generator Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Low well to wing cost
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Source For Miniature Ball-Joints/Ball-Socket?
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Iron Butt marathon? where do I register?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
For the most part, I'd say you're right, but I've added a couple of
corrections and qualifiers:
Price per Ah - similar
seems to be true, although I don't know much about pricing on the
larger cells.
Energy Density - similar
true.
Safety - I have the perception that LiIon can burn quite badly, yet Li
Polymer cannot.
I'd say that's a bit of a misperception. Kokam's claims can lead one
to believe this, but while their cells may be more abuse-tolerant,
there's still a risk of fire & explosion. Some consider polymer cells
"safer" because there's no metal case to throw shrapnel if it explodes
- this may not apply to large (e.g. 100Ah) cells. Still, while I'd
definitely not like either, I don't think lithium burning in my car
would be any scarier or more damaging than gasoline...
Discharge Rate - Li Polymer is superior, does not require Ultracaps or
extra
PbA batteries for high discharge needs
It's really based on the physical cell layout. Li-poly allows form
factors not available to Li-Ion, and in general, some 2Ah li-poly cells
are capable of much higher discharge rates (some kokam cells claim 20C)
than typical Li-ion cells in an 18650 package. So in general, I guess
that's true.
Weight - similar
yep
Charging - both require over-voltage limiters
definitely
Quality - Kokam's seem to have a better reputation than TS
hmm, don't know too much about either...Does anyone using small Kokam
cells in hobby applications (i.e. model airplanes) have any cycle life
data at high discharge rates? I'm really curious to see how they hold
up at full current. Maybe I'll try myself -- a test like that is one I
could afford :)
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
From the beginning of my EV days about two years ago, I had my eye out
for the charger that would go into my conversion. I looked around and
paid attention to what everyone seemed happy with. The PFC charger
ended up being an easy decision. It was also a natural fit in the
"Top-Line Shop" on EV Source.
I have loved my PFC-20. Much for the reasons others have talked about.
I love the amp knob, and the versatility of any output voltage. The
regulator interface has kept things well equalized, and provides peace
of mind when charging. The charger is a very good-looking product in an
attractive case.
Thanks Rich and Joe! Keep up the good work.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> The common fallacy with all these otherwise good ideas is the
> concept that anyone outside any of the... megacities is going
> to drive to a station, unload all his goodies, lug 'em to a train,
> have to bump elbows with... others, lug the stuff off at the
> other end and then either walk or drive another vehicle the
> rest of his way to his destination. Just ain't gonna happen.
Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to their
final destination.
And, every time we travel by air on vacation or business, the same
process is repeated, often with hundreds of pounds of luggage in tow.
I agree it is awkward and inconvenient. It's not what people want to do,
it's what they *have* to do under the circumstances.
> Something that would have a much closer chance of being accepted is a
> station car setup whereby the standardized electric car is driven onto
> an autonomous piggy-back rail car that might hold 8 or 10 e-cars.
> When the car fills up, it takes off. Instead of trying to accommodate
> every type of car on the market, only cars built to a tight
> dimensional spec would be accepted. This standardized dimensional
> spec would also permit very dense parking at destinations, manual or
> automated.
I like this idea, too. I see Rick Woodbury's Tango as ideally suited to
this kind of daily commuting. I also understand one of the few popular
Amtrak services is the CarTrain, where people going on vacation can take
their car with them.
The hard part is to get the bureaucrats to stop looking backwards to the
past for solutions, and actually think about the future.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> For my daily commute, I can do everything I need without any range
> extenders. But I could use one almost every month.
There's one challenge you may be overlooking. Since you know an EV won't
be driven for more than an hour, the motor, controller and batteries
don't need much cooling. They can be simpler, smaller, lighter, and
cheaper because they never have to operate continuously.
But if you want to drive continuously, you'll need better parts and more
cooling. You can't use the motor's 1-hour rating; you need to use its
continuous-duty rating which is 30-50% less.
You can't depend on the battery sitting at 0 current for large parts of
the day, so it has time to cool off; you'll need an active battery
cooling system to prevent its temperature from rising during continuous
charge/discharge operation.
And the controller will need to be bigger and have better cooling,
because the life expectancy of power electronics is a function of both
time and temperature. I.e. the more hours you drive, the cooler it needs
to be to survive.
I think the best option may be to have a pusher trailer, where its
engine actually powers its wheels to "push" the EV. This takes the load
off the entire EV drive train, and also eliminates the conversion losses
of ICE > generator > batteries > motor.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I made a big step last night with my Craftsman conversion with the
automatic tranny (hydromatic I think).
I decided last week to saw off the shaft of the old B&S and get a shaft adapter
from mcmaster carr so I could use the same pulley and placement and not have
the belts fall off with things disengaged.
Last night it arrived and I hooked it all up and took some pictures but
neglected to post them yet. I was able to use 3 existing mounting holes and
only had to drill one so I decided to take it for a spin a really short one.
Using the 12vdc garden tractor battery I hooked it to the motor and it spun the
pulley perfectly and by letting off the clutch it spun the belt to the
transmission.
I was all excited so I put it in gear and it just kinda rolled barely moving at
all but at least it moved I guess. I tried to push it by hand and it is really
hard to push is that normal for a tractor? There is a pullout to push it when
it's off which disengages something in the transmission and with that pulled
out it is really easy to push.
I don't want to get all the batteries and wiring done to find the transmission
is going to eat more power then the blades. I may take a trip over to sears and
try pushing one of the showroom models around if possible.
Thanks for any advice,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:
<< snip >>
be able to get there. My friend lives an hour away, I might be able to get
there, but then I'd
<< snip >>
Dave Cover
Well now I feel better. I have two friends. :)
__________
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Andre' Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well now I feel better. I have two friends. :)
> __________
> Andre' B.
I did have two once, but then my dog died.
Oh well, at least I save on birthday cards. ;)
Dave Cover
(with apologies to dog owners.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4560637182&rd=1
Three passenger front seat. Car nuts would be appaled at us converting but
it is a very unique car. Make a great glider. Way ahead of it's time.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fiberglass. It's in Austrailia. Made there too. Should be very light. It
ran in reverse by reversing the motor rotation.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pusher trailer option.
How about a 5th 'driver' wheel (Monster Garage style) that can be lowered
'tween the 2 rear wheels.
Take a 1.0 liter Geo Metro. Leave the front as is. Place your batteries
and motor in the rear. Use a manual lowering device for the 5th wheel like
that of a dump truck's extra wheels. Design for 20 miles round trip with
charging during work. No A/C etc. for the short trips. No trailer.
BTW Trailers require license plates in FL.
For trips beyond 20 use the ICE. For a 40mph commute 10 miles, the
battery/motor should not be that beefy or add to much weight to the 1825 lb
Metro.
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Engine Generator Question
Dave Cover wrote:
> For my daily commute, I can do everything I need without any range
> extenders. But I could use one almost every month.
There's one challenge you may be overlooking. Since you know an EV won't
be driven for more than an hour, the motor, controller and batteries
don't need much cooling. They can be simpler, smaller, lighter, and
cheaper because they never have to operate continuously.
But if you want to drive continuously, you'll need better parts and more
cooling. You can't use the motor's 1-hour rating; you need to use its
continuous-duty rating which is 30-50% less.
You can't depend on the battery sitting at 0 current for large parts of
the day, so it has time to cool off; you'll need an active battery
cooling system to prevent its temperature from rising during continuous
charge/discharge operation.
And the controller will need to be bigger and have better cooling,
because the life expectancy of power electronics is a function of both
time and temperature. I.e. the more hours you drive, the cooler it needs
to be to survive.
I think the best option may be to have a pusher trailer, where its
engine actually powers its wheels to "push" the EV. This takes the load
off the entire EV drive train, and also eliminates the conversion losses
of ICE > generator > batteries > motor.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark and All,
Mark Hastings wrote:
> Well I made a big step last night with my Craftsman conversion with the
> automatic tranny (hydromatic I think).
> ... so I decided to take it for a spin a really short one.
> Using the 12vdc garden tractor battery I hooked it to the motor and it spun
> the pulley perfectly and by letting off the clutch it spun the belt to the
> transmission.
> I tried to push it by hand and it is really hard to push is that normal for a
> tractor?
Yes, it's normal. Your Craftsman sounds very similar to my MTD, the maker of
Craftsman's tractors. Because of the worm gear drive inside the differential
housing, you can't push the tractor. This was probably an intentional design so
that heavy loads hooked to the tractor would not cause it to roll away. It's
also the reason there's no park
brake....doesn't need one. Does your tractor have the same single combination
clutch - brake pedal on the left side, that when initially pushed in loosens
the drive belt and as you push in farther, sets the brake? When your foot is
off this pedal, the drive belt is tightest and the brake is off. On my tractor,
I very rarely use this pedal, as I
get nice speed and deceleration control by simply using the hand
throttle....push it up and it goes, pull it back, and it stops fairly quickly.
Only during those times where you are going a bit too fast towards a fixed
object, do you need to slam-in that pedal to stop it 'right now'.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Find an old Subaru Justy. Leave the ICE setup driving the front wheels, and
fit a motor to drive the rear. You'd probably need some extra reduction.
Put a small battery where the back seat was. Now you have a true hybrid, if
a tad crude. ;-)
This could also be done with a Honda Civic 4wd wagon. Other 4wd gliders
sold in the States would tend to be heavy, but I think a few European mfgrs
build small 4wd cars.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Eric Poulsen has tried to use the equations and algorithm in the CECO
documentation and has thus far been unsuccessful in getting them to
produce sensible results, which suggests that there may be an error in
the documentation since we all agree that the E-Meter does a reasonable
job of estimating battery capacity, and we all agree that Peukert's
equation does a reasonable job of modelling the real-world behaviour of
lead acid batteries.
Hold on there ... I've gotten exactly the results as described in the
document. However, my question is: What good are these numbers in
estimating true SOC. You end up with two different capacity variables
(Crem and Cprem), both of which you can use to get a "percentage of
charge," but they're different, and the CECO document implies this by
saying "... Therefore a 20 hr discharge at 10 A would deplete the 100%
of the battery capacity using Crem or Cprem at the same rate." When
using the 20-hour rate, they do indeed match exactly (percentage-wise),
but diverge at different rates.
Since you can feed the program 20 hours of the 20-hour current rate and
get a very normal 100% --> 95%, etc, I don't think it's completely wrong.
I believe that I've implemented the algorithm properly *as described*.
As such, I don't find that the values it gives you to be particularly
useful until we know how they're used to determine true SOC.
Does anyone have any actual logged data (current samples) from a real EV
that they can provide (along with peukert's and capacity of the pack)
that can be used to plug into the algorithm and see how well it actually
works?
Given that we can all point to something obviously suspect with the
equations in CECO's documentation, it seems reasonable that we should
assume the documentation is incorrect and therefore examine it
critically for any other errors and/or use versions of Peukert's
equation that do not have the suspect unit manipulation to sanity check
the equations in CECO's documentation. ("We" of course means Eric,
since he is the one particularly interested in implementing his own
version of an E-Meter ;^).
I'm working on this. I have an email from a battery engineer that I
will post if he gives me permission to do so. Essentially, I was wrong,
and Mr. Marino was right. The equation might happen to work, but the
use of units rather than ratios of units is incorrect. More
specifically, you need to use two sets of times and currents in your
equations to remain dimensionless. That doesn't mean (in a practical
sense) that you can't use a dimensioned equation and get accurate
results; you just have to be careful in how you apply it.
As far as re-implementation of the e-meter: I don't like (unnecessarily)
expensive black boxes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Yes that sounds exactly like my tractor thank you so much for responding with
all that detail I was very concerned I had a bum transmission or something.
If all goes well I think I shall be test driving it with 20 bb600's this
weekend since they shouldn't sag as much as that little 12v tractor battery or
6volts moped battery I was testing the etek with. I know it'll never be a nice
as the HMGT but I'm trying to make it a nice clean looking conversion that it
will be easy to show people how it works and how easy it was to convert and
maintain. Next year I'll be driving it in the Double Oak, TX 4th of July parade
down main street towing possibly some animal services dogs up for adoption from
my wifes work if it all pans out so it has to look nice. All kinds of gas go
carts/scooter/tractors/cars in the parade of our tiny 2 square mile town.
Mark Hastings
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Mark and All,
Mark Hastings wrote:
> Well I made a big step last night with my Craftsman conversion with the
> automatic tranny (hydromatic I think).
> ... so I decided to take it for a spin a really short one.
> Using the 12vdc garden tractor battery I hooked it to the motor and it spun
> the pulley perfectly and by letting off the clutch it spun the belt to the
> transmission.
> I tried to push it by hand and it is really hard to push is that normal for a
> tractor?
Yes, it's normal. Your Craftsman sounds very similar to my MTD, the maker of
Craftsman's tractors. Because of the worm gear drive inside the differential
housing, you can't push the tractor. This was probably an intentional design so
that heavy loads hooked to the tractor would not cause it to roll away. It's
also the reason there's no park
brake....doesn't need one. Does your tractor have the same single combination
clutch - brake pedal on the left side, that when initially pushed in loosens
the drive belt and as you push in farther, sets the brake? When your foot is
off this pedal, the drive belt is tightest and the brake is off. On my tractor,
I very rarely use this pedal, as I
get nice speed and deceleration control by simply using the hand
throttle....push it up and it goes, pull it back, and it stops fairly quickly.
Only during those times where you are going a bit too fast towards a fixed
object, do you need to slam-in that pedal to stop it 'right now'.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- D wrote:
> This isn't a hybrid in the sense of a combination of different
> [drive] mechanisms [...] it's a hybrid of this year's car with
> next year's [ICE].
>
> -d
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm...
I see a couple things here. You tried it with 12v U1 flooded battery (probably
a yuasa) wired to a 36v ? motor. I'm
not suprised you didn't get any usable power. Those batteries can hardly
deliver 200 amps.
As for the transmission, if it is hydromatic, I understand that those things
are inefficient pigs. They are simply a
hydraulic pump and motor, I beleive. And unfortunately, not optimized for
efficiency.
But it doesn't sound like the transmission is hydro, yet it does sound like it
is. Let me try to explain. John's
tractor is an older model MTD. It has a manual transmission, kind of. What it
actually has(had) is a cvt clutch
arrangement, mine did anyway. The gear shift lever and throttle pedal work in
unison to control how much play is
allowed in the cvt, and thus the top speed. It also has park setting on the
gear shifter which engages the same brake
as on the foot pedal. There is also a forward neutral reverse lever. When in
neutral AND the shift lever is out of
park, the tractor can be pushed.
Hydrostatic's don't need a parking brake, they are naturally "broke", or is it
"braked". You have to disengauge the
transmission to push the tractor, usually by pulling up on a small lever. Also,
if they don't have a wig-wag throttle
then the gear shift just goes from reverse to forward with no real neutral
setting.
Basically, do you have a direction selector, that is separate from the speed
selector?
Either way, I think, once you have enough battery power available, you won't
have much problem.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
>
> Hello Mark and All,
>
> Mark Hastings wrote:
>
>> Well I made a big step last night with my Craftsman conversion with the
> automatic tranny (hydromatic I think).
>> ... so I decided to take it for a spin a really short one.
>> Using the 12vdc garden tractor battery I hooked it to the motor and it
> spun the pulley perfectly and by letting off the clutch it spun the belt to
> the transmission.
>> I tried to push it by hand and it is really hard to push is that normal
> for a tractor?
>
> Yes, it's normal. Your Craftsman sounds very similar to my MTD, the maker of
> Craftsman's tractors. Because of the worm gear drive inside the differential
> housing, you can't push the tractor. This was probably an intentional design
> so that heavy loads hooked to the tractor would not cause it to roll away.
> It's also the reason there's no park brake....doesn't need one. Does your
> tractor have the same single combination clutch - brake pedal on the left
> side, that when initially pushed in loosens the drive belt and as you push
> in farther, sets the brake? When your foot is off this pedal, the drive belt
> is tightest and the brake is off. On my tractor, I very rarely use this
> pedal, as I get nice speed and deceleration control by simply using the hand
> throttle....push it up and it goes, pull it back, and it stops fairly
> quickly. Only during those times where you are going a bit too fast towards
> a fixed object, do you need to slam-in that pedal to stop it 'right now'.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think lithium burning in my car
> would be any scarier or more damaging than gasoline...
Current lithium cells can be viewed as scarier, in my opinion, and
that's because they come with plenty of oxidizer which is
liberated by heat. You cannot smother a fire once started, the
only way to stop the reaction is to remove heat. Oh, yes, and
Li + H2O? Not a good idea. I think it's a very good thing that
there's another thread here about temperature cutoffs for chargers....
It would be a good idea to have a couple of redundant systems for
Li charging....
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used to recharge with multiple chargers to get a
fast charge. It is clumsy and it is accidents waiting
to happen. I have since upgraded to a PFC-20 for my
Sparrow and a PFC-50 for my conversion. Their high
power and the ability to use universal input voltages
has revolutionized the way we drive our EVs. Longer
trips and multiple trips in a short time is no longer
a problem. And, it is nice to be able to tell people
that you could recharge is less than an hour.
Of course the chargers are not perfect. But, I do not
know any charger that is perfect. Thermal-runaway is
a well-known fact on warm batteries. Even the mighty
EV1 had the same problem. A charger is only part of a
charging system. Most of the time we hobbiers have
to be part of the system because we do not design (or
want to pay for) a complete system.
Ed Ang
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> It's a good thing, when dedicated EVers step up, put
> their money on the line, and provide
> the rest of us with terrific EV products that
> improve things. Rich and Joe have done just
> that with their high quality, reliable, affordable,
> and powerful PFC charger line. The
> recent flurry of negative posts about these fine
> chargers has me concerned, because in my
> opinion, for the money there 'is' no better charger.
> Are they perfect? No, but darn close.
> They are feature packed, and are always being
> improved...witness the step up from PFC20,
> to the PFC30, and the new water cooled 40L models,
> the mighty PFC50, and now the BIG stuff
> these guys are working on. People have asked for
> isolation....it's being made. Now, we
> hear of Bill's thermal runaway problem, and there's
> been an active and open dialog.
>
> Rich and Joe's fast acting chargers have completely
> changed the way I can use my short
> range daily street EV, Blue Meanie, because with its
> hotrodded PFC20 cranking out on the
> edge of 30 amps, it only takes 45 minutes - one hour
> or so to fill the car up again. At
> the track, my PFC30 has eliminated the need for me
> to use dump charging, and when
> supporting area EVers or Rich himself show up with a
> brawny PFC50, geesh, charging the
> race car between quarter mile blasts is a piece of
> cake...if only my 10 kw generator could
> keep up! The quality of construction is top notch,
> the tech support is instantaneous and
> courteous, and the versatility of going from a 120
> volt charging to a 240 charging with a
> few easily assembled adapters and the use of the
> 'AMPS' knob, is super convenient and adds
> flexibility to charging your EV.
>
> I'm a bit worn down hearing the negative, so let's
> hear from the hundreds of satisfied
> others who like me, absolutely love their PFC
> chargers. I've written over and over about
> how these Manzanita Micro chargers have
> revolutionized the way I can use my EVs, so I'd
> like to hear from all those other happy customers
> out there...what's your story?
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
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Tim,
Yes I was running a little U1. Before that I actually ran a little 6v moped
just to spin the etek.
On the left foot I have the combination brake/belt release. On the right hand I
have a slider that goes through a few inches of reverse speeds moves to the
right to a nuetral and then about 3 inches for forward speed for mowing then
shifts a litlte right for another inch or two of high speed intended for moving
and not mowing. I do have the small pin I pull out towards the back to
disengage the tranny for pushing.
I'm going to try to hit it with some bigger batteries this weekend and see what
it will do. It worked ok two weeks ago as a gas mower it seemed so hopefully
i'll be all good
Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmmm...
I see a couple things here. You tried it with 12v U1 flooded battery (probably
a yuasa) wired to a 36v ? motor. I'm
not suprised you didn't get any usable power. Those batteries can hardly
deliver 200 amps.
As for the transmission, if it is hydromatic, I understand that those things
are inefficient pigs. They are simply a
hydraulic pump and motor, I beleive. And unfortunately, not optimized for
efficiency.
But it doesn't sound like the transmission is hydro, yet it does sound like it
is. Let me try to explain. John's
tractor is an older model MTD. It has a manual transmission, kind of. What it
actually has(had) is a cvt clutch
arrangement, mine did anyway. The gear shift lever and throttle pedal work in
unison to control how much play is
allowed in the cvt, and thus the top speed. It also has park setting on the
gear shifter which engages the same brake
as on the foot pedal. There is also a forward neutral reverse lever. When in
neutral AND the shift lever is out of
park, the tractor can be pushed.
Hydrostatic's don't need a parking brake, they are naturally "broke", or is it
"braked". You have to disengauge the
transmission to push the tractor, usually by pulling up on a small lever. Also,
if they don't have a wig-wag throttle
then the gear shift just goes from reverse to forward with no real neutral
setting.
Basically, do you have a direction selector, that is separate from the speed
selector?
Either way, I think, once you have enough battery power available, you won't
have much problem.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Craftsman conversion step one. Transmission resistance?
>
> Hello Mark and All,
>
> Mark Hastings wrote:
>
>> Well I made a big step last night with my Craftsman conversion with the
> automatic tranny (hydromatic I think).
>> ... so I decided to take it for a spin a really short one.
>> Using the 12vdc garden tractor battery I hooked it to the motor and it
> spun the pulley perfectly and by letting off the clutch it spun the belt to
> the transmission.
>> I tried to push it by hand and it is really hard to push is that normal
> for a tractor?
>
> Yes, it's normal. Your Craftsman sounds very similar to my MTD, the maker of
> Craftsman's tractors. Because of the worm gear drive inside the differential
> housing, you can't push the tractor. This was probably an intentional design
> so that heavy loads hooked to the tractor would not cause it to roll away.
> It's also the reason there's no park brake....doesn't need one. Does your
> tractor have the same single combination clutch - brake pedal on the left
> side, that when initially pushed in loosens the drive belt and as you push
> in farther, sets the brake? When your foot is off this pedal, the drive belt
> is tightest and the brake is off. On my tractor, I very rarely use this
> pedal, as I get nice speed and deceleration control by simply using the hand
> throttle....push it up and it goes, pull it back, and it stops fairly
> quickly. Only during those times where you are going a bit too fast towards
> a fixed object, do you need to slam-in that pedal to stop it 'right now'.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
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> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:26:16 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>> I'd make a gen up from one of their motors with a
>>DC gen if you want any extra range at all. These gens
>>are nice but too small, expensive for the output we
>>need for more than a little extra range.
>> Though the large one could increase your daily
>>range to 200/250miles or so with a RAV4 EV.
>> My goal is 1,000 miles per day or more, just like
>>any car has, even 24hrs/day with 2 drivers.
>
> Don't you think that's getting a little silly? Anyone you know
> (outside of a Cannonball Baker rally driver, perhaps) ever actually
> driven 1000 miles in a day?
>
Sure <raises hand> a serveral times. Plus numerous trips to my daughters
house and back, 960 miles each way. Seems kinda silly to stop with only a
couple hours to go, so we always did it in one trip (14-15 hours,
depending on breaks)
> If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile at 60 mph (can any
> currently available EV actually run that efficiently over the long
> term in traffic and dealing with elevations?), you're looking at a
> power requirement of 36kw.
Umm, that's a tad high, I'd say 15-20 kwh is more accurate for typical
EVs. Jerry will probably disagree (and insist it's much lower) but he
tends to be wildly optimistic.
> Even stopping for 30 minutes every hour for rest and recharge only
> reduces the power requirement to 24kw. And that assumes there are
> batteries that can take that kind of charge/discharge rate
> continuously.
My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at 60 mph on flat ground.
Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going up, zero kw coming down,
possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A reasonably efficient, full size
EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
If you are actually getting 10 kw from the genny, then you only need 5-10
from the batteries. A decnet set of Lithium whatever batteries could
probably last 4 hours before needing to recharge. Have a nice leasurly
meal and the genny could put it back in a couple hours, less if there is
opertunity charging available.
> Oh, I suppose that depends on which variety of alternate reality you
> believe in. If your alternate reality says that building that spare
> car causes any "pollution", or at least any more than building a
> generator or turbine, then the obvious solution is to either rent or
> co-op a pool car for long trips.
and in the long run, possibly cheaper too.
>> While the gas tanks may seem small, 1.85gal for
>>the engine I'll use, that gives me 200 mile range on
>>gas alone,
See what I mean about wildly optimistic? While this is doable, I'm not
going to hold my breath waiting for something to come out of Jerry's
workshop that can do it. (That's a challenge Jerry, 'cause I know how
much you like a challenge ;)
>
> Why not just buy a hybrid, pile the trunk or rear spaces full of
> batteries, hire someone to hack the PCM to manage the extra batteries
> and go with that? Probably less money in the long run and certainly
> less tailpipe emissions. Not to mention better reliability. That way
> you could putter around town on batteries and use the engine on your
> 24hr iron butt marathons.
>
Or wait a couple years, I believe Mitsubishi is promissing a plug in
hybrid within 5 years. Though they are doing some pretty amazing stuff
hacking the prius now.
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--- Begin Message ---
Interesting EV solar airplane set to fly around the
world.
http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMP5W5DIAE_index_0.html
Rod
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--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
An alternative to the ball-joint usually thought about is the
Heim Joint. The sizes seem to begin at 3/16" and go upward.
Larger sizes are used in suspensions in various cars such as
Formula SAE and Legends (Harrisburg, N. C.).
See Google or other search engines for Heim Joint. Hope this
helps.
Rhett George
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On Jul 7, 2005, at 12:06 PM, Philip Marino wrote:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:03:54 -0700
> C = 200 Ahr N = 1.25
> I20 = 200 Ahr / 20 hr = 10 A
> Cp = (10 A)^1.25 x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
>
> This last equation is wrong. The units on both sides of an equation
> MUST be the same, for the equation to be correct. Here, we have Ah
> on the right side, and (A) ^1.25-h on the left.
[snip]
I^n * Ti = constant
Where
* I = discharge current [amp]
* N = battery constant (n=1.35 for typical lead-acid batteries)
* Ti = time to discharge at current I [seconds]
Quoted by Philip Marino from:
<http://www.thermoanalytics.com/support/publications/
batterymodelsdoc.html>
Think about this equation for a minute. The constant, also known as Cp,
is the batteries Ah capacity at the 1 amp rate. That is to say, that no
matter what power you raise 1 amp too the answer is 1. So in Lee's
example the Cp is 355.6 Ah. The capacity at the 10 amp rate is going to
be less, and the formula describes this effect (200 Ah in Lee's
example.) The battery can deliver 1 amp for 355.6 hours or 10 amps for
20 hours (until dropping to 1.75vpc.)
So you take this Peukert's capacity and rapidly sample your pack
current (lets say once per second.) I^1.25 / 3600 tells you how much of
the Cp you used in one second. Keep subtracting those from the Cp and
when it reaches 0 your battery is dead at that discharge rate. If the
battery discharge rate was constant you could just do the math in
advance and use a timer to determine state of charge, but EVs have
extremely variable battery load.
Paul "neon" G.
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Hi peoples
Isn't Iron Butt the evil arch enemy of spiderman? I'm
sure I read that in a comic somewhere!
I used to do the 12 or mor hr drive from Grande
Prairie to Tawassin ferry and over to the island (900
miles not km) but that's a maby once a year occurance.
And then if possible I try to get out of it! Who wants
to do that kind of thing all the time?
I could only drive for about 3 hours at a time without
stopping for a break and a bum massage! lol after all,
I'm not Iron Butt!
Tom
> I'd make a gen up from one of their motors with a
>DC gen if you want any extra range at all. These gens
>are nice but too small, expensive for the output we
>need for more than a little extra range.
> Though the large one could increase your daily
>range to 200/250miles or so with a RAV4 EV.
> My goal is 1,000 miles per day or more, just like
>any car has, even 24hrs/day with 2 drivers.
Don't you think that's getting a little silly? Anyone
you know (outside of a Cannonball Baker rally driver,
perhaps) ever actually driven 1000 miles in a day?
If the car can run on as little a 600 wh/mile at 60
mph (can any currently available EV actually run that
efficiently over the long term in traffic and dealing
with elevations?), you're looking at a power
requirement of 36kw. If you're going to insist on
driving for many hours at that rate, then you're well
up into either a very heavy conventional generator or
gas turbine range. Gas turbines are available in that
power range but they're quite expensive and unless one
buys a really expensive microturbine, not nearly as
efficient as a modern gas or diesel car engine.
Even stopping for 30 minutes every hour for rest and
recharge only reduces the power requirement to 24kw.
And that assumes there are batteries that can take
that kind of charge/discharge rate continuously.
> That way you only need 1 car, saving all the
costs,
>pollution, space of the second car. Just how much
>pollution does it take to make, maintain, pay for a
>spare car?
Oh, I suppose that depends on which variety of
alternate reality you believe in. If your alternate
reality says that building that spare car causes any
"pollution", or at least any more than building a
generator or turbine, then the obvious solution is to
either rent or co-op a pool car for long trips.
> If we build EV's without limitations, then no one
>will have an excuse not to buy them. That's why mine
>will have AC's and generators as options.
> While the gas tanks may seem small, 1.85gal for
>the engine I'll use, that gives me 200 mile range on
>gas alone, not including batt range. 275-300miles
>with batt power included before refueling . Dam I
love
>EV drive eff!!!
Why not just buy a hybrid, pile the trunk or rear
spaces full of batteries, hire someone to hack the PCM
to manage the extra batteries and go with that?
Probably less money in the long run and certainly less
tailpipe emissions. Not to mention better
reliability. That way
you could putter around town on batteries and use the
engine on your 24hr iron butt marathons.
John
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