EV Digest 4534
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sealed Lead Acid Cycle Life
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Quit scaring me - battery killing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Vacuum tubes for motor control?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) More dumb controller questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zap again
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: More dumb controller questions
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sealed Lead Acid Cycle Life
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Resistance Insight Pack?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Large Sealed Batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zap again
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zap again
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: CUSHMAN Truck
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zap again
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: We have ignition!...Silver Bullet Flies Again
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: FS: 9 Evercel M100s, plus spare cells-info links
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: A timer on PFC chargers
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: More dumb controller questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Can't seem to find exact specifications [for an Albright SW200A-16].
> I think it has a 120v max rating. Can this contactor function
> at 144v? If not what would I need for a 144v system with a
> 400 to 500amp max rating. The Kilovac series look good.
The SW200 is nominally rated at 96vdc, 250amps continuous, 500amps for 5
minutes, 1500amps maximum one-time rupture. Since there is no "N" in the
number, it has magnetic blowouts. The 96vdc rating assumes a 96v pack,
which right after charging could be at 2.5v/cell or 120vdc. However,
when the contactor opens under load, the battery voltage will be sagging
under that load and so be at this high a voltage.
Dave Cover replied:
> If I rememeber correctly, Lee mentioned using contactors in series
> to increase their voltage rating. Is there a general rule for
> calculating what two or more contactors in series will handle?
> I have two Albright contactors, but I need to switch over 300 volts.
The voltage rating of contacts in series adds. Two 96vdc contactors in
series can safely switch 192vdc. You would need three in series for
300vdc (3 x 96 = 288v, which is close enough). But, they *must* be
switched at the same time!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> 250 cycles? Yea I know that's the published life span of AGM and
> Optima Yellow tops... Why am I in the 7th year of my Yt life, and
> lost count of the cycle count. My current Emeter shows +347 cycles,
> about 20% of what they really have...
Rich, how many miles do you have on them? I'll bet it is very low. Sure,
you have lots of charge cycles; but they are very shallow discharges. As
shown earlier in this thread, batteries last *many* more cycles when
depth of discharge is very low.
> My Yts have always had Regs on them. John's Yts never had Regs...
This actually implies that regulators are *not* necessary for long life.
> Run them empty every time, use a third world charger on them,
> let them set for days semi charged... and you will kill your AGMs
> in less than 200 cycles.
Very true; lots of opportunity for abuse there. But, if you are 80%
discharging them every time, you are also putting a lot of miles on your
EV. 200 cycles to 80% DOD on 20 Optimas in an EV that gets 200 watthours
per mile is 10,000 miles. But at 1 cycle a day, they last less than a
year.
You may only be discharging your Optimas 20%, and so get 1000 cycles. If
you only cycle them once a week, they can last 10 years (if you don't do
anything else wrong). But, you'd only be putting 500 miles a year on
them. They'll die from old age and other accumulated abuse with
considerably less than 10,000 miles on them.
Meanwhile, the guy who "wins" the life contest and gets the lowest
battery cost per mile does so by discharging his pack around 50% DOD
each day. He might drive 20 miles a day to work, 5 days a week, 4000
miles a year. His batteries might only last 3 years; but that's 12,000
miles.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Buresh wrote:
> Realistically, could I survive a MN winter without charging
> -- assuming 100% SOC at start?
AGMs, which have lower self-discharge rates, can easily go 6 months
without charging. I had some Hawkers sitting in my garage all winter;
they are started at 13.1v and ended at 12.9v this spring (still over 80%
charged).
Floodeds, with their higher self-discharge rates, should be charged at
least every few months even when cold.
Be sure there are no parasitic loads connected to the batteries before
you let them sit! The biggest problem with batteries going dead when a
car is is left sitting is that there are still loads connected (clocks,
security systems, voltmeters, E-meters, DC/DC converters, etc.)
If you aren't sure, your best bet is to check the battery voltage every
once in a while, and charge when the battery needs it.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> We need to get one of these for the front of gone postal instead
> of that wimpy tesla ball ;-)
Now there's an idea... Some of these antique motor controllers would put
on a *very* impressive "mad scientist" show. Real Frankenstein lab
arc-n-spark stuff!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do very large power applications (as far as EVs are concerned) do their
motor control? I am referring to some futuristic multi-thousand HP electric 18
wheeler, or electric trains, electric subs, etc. I am talking about multiple
megawatts of power, or more.
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> On the contactor it says 120v. I suspect I can get away with more.
> Are the Curtis/Albright different from the Albright & what does the
> -16 stand for?
I was reading straight from an Albright data sheet. As I said, the
"120v" is the maximum rating; what you would see with a 96vdc battery
pack immediately after charging. It is rated 200 amps continuous per
contact.
The dash numbers define the specific options a customer ordered.
The coil can be wound for anything from 12vdc to 240vdc. Usually, it
will be 12v or whatever the customer's pack voltage is.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:24 PM 7/28/05 +0100, you wrote:
On 7/28/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can't seem to find exact specifications for this contactor. I think it has
> a 120v max rating. Can this contactor function at 144v?
Yes, and higher.. but..
> If not what would
> I need for a 144v system with a 400 to 500amp max rating. The Kilovac
> series look good.
It's rated to 400A continuous, so should be OK in this respect too.
The problem is when you try to open that sort of current (or higher,
in the event of a fault) at 144V, it probably won't do it very often,
or perhaps at all. I don't have the spec either unfortunately, and
I'd be interested to hear what other people have gotten away with in
terms of breaking fault currents with the SW200.
I doubt their application engineers would approve it for this
application, but you could always ask :)
If you are using the Curtis/PMC potbox microswitch as a deadman switch as
it is intended to be used by the factory (opens the contactor every time
you lift your foot from the throttle), the contactor is never opening under
load in normal use. If you are talking about some kind of abnormal failure
mode, one would hope you wouldn't be doing this more than once anyway.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/28/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd rather convert a Robin Reliant. I have a line on one in Northern
> California. LR..........
Nah, Reliant Kitten is better, see my webpage :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 4:05 AM
> Subject: Zap again
>
>
> > ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
> >
> > The fun, compact and affordable electric vehicle.
> > Approximate MSRP $8,995. Estimated availability October, 2005.
> >
> > http://www.zapworld.com/cars/trio.asp
> >
> > How cute! And a good price. Anyone got any more info, like *if it'll
> > ever see the light of day* ? :)
> >
> > --
> >
> > EVan
> > http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>How do very large power applications (as far as EVs are concerned) do their
>motor control? I am referring to some futuristic multi-thousand HP electric
>18
>wheeler, or electric trains, electric subs, etc. I am talking about multiple
>megawatts of power, or more.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
Large IGBT modules:
The largest one I saw on the Digi-Key website is rated 1200v 250A, the
International Rectifier GA250TD120U. Assuming you wouldn't run it with a
line over 1000v means that it can handle 250kW on it's own. It does cost
$337 in single unit quantities though.
IXYS has a 1700v 440A (@80C) 3-phase (6 pack, 3 half-bridges) module. If
you run it at 1500V that makes it a 660kW device. The thermal resistance
chip to heatsink is 0.085 degrees per watt. If your heatsink is 30C and
you can operate the device at 80C, the max power dissipation is 588
watts. With a typical Vce of 2.6v you could run about 350A RMS through
the device which is about 525kW RMS. Still not too shabby! I didn't
bother looking for a price :)
525kW is 704HP, that's more than I would guess any 18-wheeler has ever
had stock. Trains and subs already have very large electric drives, I
really have no idea how much power they would put out.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
As an alternative for more range while
keeping good amps of say 800-100 available, how about
using 20-24 12vdc SCS225 Trojan's in buddy pairs?
This could keep amps to 400-500 amps/batt
string which should give many enough power while still
keeping the max amps in a reasonable range and the amp
draw/string for constance power low enough for good
life while keeping the range of flooded batts.
Hopefully keeping the cost of batts reasonable and not
having to have regs and expensive battery chargers
that AGM's need, are.
Is this viable?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> John Westlund wrote:
>
> > Philip Marino wrote:
> >
> > >I've read that sealed lead acid batteries are
> good for
> > >about 250 cycles to 80% DOD ( Is this about
> right?).
> > >If so, a set of SLA batteries ( $3136) will take
> you
> > >only 7500 miles ( 50
> > >miles x 250 cycles)
>
> > The 50 miles to 80% DoD would be reserved for
> > showing off or the rare longer trip. 30 miles
> would only
> > discharge those batteries to 45-50% DoD or so.
> >
> > I'm not sure about the Orbitals, but the Optimas
> at 50% DoD
> > are quoted by Commuter Cars of having 1,200
> cycles. Or a
> > 36,000 mile pack life in the case of this
> hypothetical truck
> > assuming shelf life doesn't become the limiting
> factor.
> > Apparantly, with Optimas, John Wayland and John
> > Bryan have also had exceptional shelf life with
> them (7+
> > years). And even after they only reach 80% of
> usable rated
> > capacity through hundreds of discharges, that
> doesn't mean
> > the battery isn't still usable, either.
> >
>
> The Optimas in Blue Meanie are now about 5 years
> old, and yes, they
> are in the autumn of their life, but as John
> Westlund points out,
> they're still alive and delivering enough range for
> me to still use
> the car for most of my running around needs. The 250
> cycle thing is if
> one does heavy 80% discharges on each cycle, and at
> that rate, Philip
> is correct about the 7500 miles bit. Optimas have
> proven over and
> over, however, to be able to far exceed that cycle
> life rating when
> they are discharged at 40-50% instead. The ones in
> my car probably
> have 800 cycles or so on them with the typical depth
> of discharge at
> 40-50% for those often used 10-12 mile runs here and
> there with
> opportunity charging between runs. In cases where a
> 20-30% depth of
> discharge can be adhered to, they last and last,
> probably over 2000
> cycles.
>
> If one needs to do 80% depth of discharges on a
> daily basis, most any
> lead acid battery, with the exception of large and
> heavy industrial
> tubular plate type batteries, will suffer a shorter
> life. The reason
> packs comprised of flooded cell 6V golf car
> batteries last as long as
> they do, is because of three things:
>
> (1) The packs are almost always very big at
> 1200-1400 lbs.
> (2) The batteries are discharged at much lower
> average currents as
> installed in low performance EVs.
> (3) Because of the enormous weight and mass of the
> battery pack as
> installed in an EV, they give 60-75 miles range per
> charge, so the
> typical 10, 15, or 20 mile runs amount to very low
> depth of
> discharges. Even a fairly long 40 mile run is only
> about a 70-80%
> discharge.
>
> If you design your EV to use a small and light
> weight pack of AGM
> style sealed batteries, then do 80% depth of
> discharges often, plan on
> a low 7000-8000 mile life. However, if you do the
> same and keep daily
> runs to the 30-50% depth of discharge area, you can
> expect much better
> results in miles driven per pack life. John Bryan's
> Ghia's Optimas
> under lighter depth of discharges have delivered
> incredible cycle
> life, so did Al Godfrey's Optima powered 914
> Porsche, so have my EVs,
> and so have many, many others. Under a higher
> performance application
> where instead of depth of discharge, the focus is
> the ability to
> deliver 1000+ amps often for stunning acceleration
> and power delivery,
> the better quality AGMs will far out cycle the
> flooded type batteries,
> hands down. Drop a wet cell pack down to the same
> lower weight levels
> as the AGM packs, say in the 600-700 lb. area, and
> you end up with a
> fraction of the hp level and batteries that while
> being beat up and
> tortured by very high currents as they struggle to
> try and make the
> delivered power level as AGMs can, will be ruined in
> as low as 100
> cycles....I know, been there, done that.
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent, thanks, that 10 kW number was off, 6 kW is much more
believable. That would give an internal resistance of about 7.2
milliohms per cell.
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You're supposed to get a maximum of 6hp from the insight assist.
> So,
> the pack is delivering probably more like 6kW in its standard
> usage.
> The Insight draws a maximum current of about 75A, however people
> have
> experimentally managed to turn this up to 100A without having an
> immediate meltdown..
>
> I don't know what the voltage sag or internal resistance actually
> is
> though, sorry.
>
>
> On 7/28/05, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm intrigued by the thought of using batteries from wrecked
> hybrids
> > (google on "Electric7" and look at the cached page,
> > http://www.electric7.com seems to be down).
> >
> > I saw a couple of web pages that say the Insight battery pack has
> > these specs:
> >
> > 120 D cell Nimh
> > 6.5 Ahr
> > 70 Amps
> > 10 kW
> > 144 V
> >
> > So if I do the simple math, 144 V * 70 A = 10.08 kW
> >
> > That would mean these batteries have almost no sag and almost
> zero
> > internal resistance! So apparently 10 kW is a nominal number?
> Does
> > anyone have better numbers? So what is the internal resistance
> for
> > these? Thanks for any info!
> >
> > Sign me "Forever looking for the cheap miracle battery"
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, does it need to be AGM? Can Gel do? If so, check out the Deka
batteries. I think they may also have an aggresively priced AGM too.
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: July 27, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
I wouldn't buy anything from Zap on principle at this point.
Last I checked, they are a couple of guys and a press release generator
and nothing else of substance. Remeber their announcement that they have
a strategic alliance with the Moller Aircar (no follow up of course),
and their announcement that they were developing some advanced hybrid
with another company (again, no follow up as it it highly unlikely they
have any R&D budget).
Whatever the product is, someone else almost certainly makes it, with
Zap trying to rebrand it by slapping a Zap sticker on the thing.
You'd probably be better off figuring out the source of the vehicle and
just buying it directly from them.
Zap is a joke.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This vehicle would require a motorcycle license in most states.
Evan Tuer wrote:
ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
The fun, compact and affordable electric vehicle.
Approximate MSRP $8,995. Estimated availability October, 2005.
http://www.zapworld.com/cars/trio.asp
How cute! And a good price. Anyone got any more info, like *if it'll
ever see the light of day* ? :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had experience driving a Cushman three-wheeled metermaidmobile.
It could indeed make an interesting electric vehicle conversion for short
runs at moderate speeds. Its main shortcoming in my never so humble
opinion is that it only has three wheels. I won't get into the three wheels
versus four wheels debate which has been beaten to death here before.
I'll just say that I hate 3- wheeled vehicles; two wheels and four wheels
are great but not three.
The metermaidmobiles I'm familiar with have a two-cylinder air-cooled
engine and 3-speed manual transmission under the seat. Removing the
infernal combustion engine and coupling an electric motor to the
transmission should be rather straightforward.
I have seen several Cushman 4-wheel electric scooters. They are indeed
completely different than the 3-wheelers. I've never driven a 4-wheeler
electric Cushman but I expect they would perform much like the golf
carts they resemble.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at lunch at a Cushman parts
place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It turns out the *3-wheel*
versions made for meter maids had *much bigger* brakes, tires and a decent
suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts with a max legal speed
of
20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin go-cart steering).
Cushman
apparently went back to selling just golf cart stuff 5 years ago they said
due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph police vehicles looked
like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in her system to get a
tag.
He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook for with a lunched
engine.
Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here, lightweight and would be energy
efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58% last month, 8c to 12.66c
per kWh.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> Howdy Folk's
>
> I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman truck and was able to
get
> 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking at some photos of one on
> http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it looks awfully like a
> Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a golf cart. Are there
> aftermarket modifications that can be done to widen the wheel base?
Bigger
> wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
>
> How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or just a tranny pincher?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> Subject: CUSHMAN tags
>
>
> > I think they might make an ideal EV if I could get it street legal.
> Thanks, Mark
> >
>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
You are right, I looked back at my notes from the SAE
meeting and the sizing case wasn't a 10% grade, but a
6% one. None the less, a pretty steep hill.
I was dubious, but there are a number of mountain
passes (not just in the alps) that have > 10% grade in
long stretches and > 6 % grade for an hour or so
(effectively continuously).
Jerry, maybe your 15 hp, large battery hybrid can
maintain speed up this hill with battery assist *if*
the battery happens to be fully charged when you start
up it. But that won't always be the case (especially
if you set up your engine controls to maximize the use
of EV mode). So then what do you do ?
I agree that it seems like such a waste to haul around
all that motor all the time for this rare case, but if
your customer demands a 'fully functional' car, what
else can you do ?
~fortunat
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Finally, when sizing the IC engine for a hybrid,
> you
> > can't consider the average highway drive
> condition.
> > You need to consider the maximum sustained load
> > requirement (not max transient, but max load
> expected
> > semi-continuously). Most of the time, this is
> > something like a 10% grade at 120 km/hr (at 40 deg
> C
> > and 2500 m, against the wind).
>
> Hmm, while I agree with most of what you
> said...where on earth is there a
> 10% grade that lasts for any length of
> time/distance? Climbing the Alps
> maybe?
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In short does anybody have any empirical evidence that it either works
or doesn't work?
Search the archive.
Some (Neon John and others) have asserted anecdotal success with pulse
based products but no real empirical data. Some believe it works.
Others (Mark Hanson, Lee, and some more) assert that their testing of
pulse products showed NO gains whatsoever and a say that a good charger
will resurrect a battery just as well. Some believe it is pure snake
oil.
I don't recall seeing any double blind tests with equivalently and
intentionally sulphated batteries.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went to ZAP "headquater" in Santa Rosa a few weeks
ago. I told the sales that I am very interested in
getting a World Car and would like a test drive. He
said he will call me back the following Monday to set
up an appointment. Well, I am still waiting for the
call.
I guess they are not in a hurry to sell anything.
Ed Ang
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
>
> I wouldn't buy anything from Zap on principle at
> this point.
>
> Last I checked, they are a couple of guys and a
> press release generator
> and nothing else of substance. Remeber their
> announcement that they have
> a strategic alliance with the Moller Aircar (no
> follow up of course),
> and their announcement that they were developing
> some advanced hybrid
> with another company (again, no follow up as it it
> highly unlikely they
> have any R&D budget).
>
> Whatever the product is, someone else almost
> certainly makes it, with
> Zap trying to rebrand it by slapping a Zap sticker
> on the thing.
>
> You'd probably be better off figuring out the source
> of the vehicle and
> just buying it directly from them.
>
> Zap is a joke.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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--- Begin Message ---
What kind of range will this car get? About 10-15 miles? I
love the way she sounds. The NEDRA video where Otmar races
the Silver Bullet in his 914 is my favorite. I love how
those three motors and belt whine while the gears are
shifted.
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what is the weight and max charge / discharge amps on them ?
--- Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have 9 Evercel M100s which I was going to install
into my car, but have
not, and probably would not in the near future. I
also have 5 spare cells
in the event you develop a bad cell. I'd like to get
$1800 for the lot,
but I am willing to entertain offers. The only catch
is if you want it
shipped I'm going to have to solicit ideas from the
list for shipping
them.
Also, I have 10 Rudman MK2b regulators which if the
buyer wishes to pick
them up, I will part with for $42.50 each. These are
new, fully assembled
and never installed.
If you have questions, please let me know
Derrick
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I've seen them for hot water heaters , so you can have the heater shut off
at night and come on in the morning , to save electricy , \home depot has
them
steve----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: A timer on PFC chargers
At 03:13 PM 7/27/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes, the chances are small. But the timers are also cheap and small
unlike battery packs...
Last time I checked, reliable timers that could handle a 20A (or 50A) load
were neither cheap nor small.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neon John"
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:50 AM
>Subject: Re: Battery de-sulfation
>
>
>> Executive summary: It worked.
>
>Did it work enough for you to use it continously? Do you intend to desulfate
>all your batteries this way? Or is it just an experiment and too time
>consuming to implement as a battery saving solution?
I leave a BatteryMinder on my motorhome batteries all the time. Yes,
I'll probably design a 72 volt pulser for my Citi over the winter.
>
>> My test subject was a Group 29 deep cycle battery that had sat on my
>> shop floor for a couple years waiting to be traded in. After several
>> charge attempts to finally get it to accept a charge, it was charged
>> with a Vector 3 stage smart charger and then discharged on my
>> discharge tester (see my web site). (From memory) It had about 27 ah
>> of capacity at the 5 amp rate and this did not change appreciably over
>> several cycles.
>
>What kind of battery was this flooded, Gel, etc?
Flooded.
>
>> I applied the pulser for 24 hours. There was an improvement. I left
>> in place for a week. At the end of the week, the battery was again
>> smart charged and discharged. It registered about 84 ah. This was
>> originally a 120ah battery.
>
>So the pulser only brought it up to 70% of its original ah after a week of
>charging... and that was only one battery. If I extrapolate a little here, and
>give me some leeway, lets say I have a 144 v pack, or 24 6 volt Trojans, it
>would take me 24 weeks to get them back to 70% of the original ah. Or I could
>spend $45 per kit (http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulfparts2.htm), assemble 24
>of the kits, wire all 24 of them up to my 24 'bad' state 6 v trojans and wait
>a week to get only 70% of the original ah.
A couple of important points. First, remember that this was a
completely trashed battery that was waiting to be traded in as a core.
IMHO, it was remarkable to get anything out of it. That it came back
with most of its capacity is amazing. It's important to keep in mind
that many of these consumer-grade deep discharge batteries (as a
matter of fact, all that I've ever tested) are optimistically rated.
I'd expect this battery to have had no more than 100ah when new.
It remains to be seen how many cells can be pulsed in series. It may
be that one pulser can be built for the whole string, it may work
better with the string split into several parts or ????
Lastly, it's important to realize that the pulser is not a charger.
The BatteryMinder combines a trickle charger with a pulser but the
functions are separate. The kit pulsers that you're interested in
actually consume a little power. The BatteryMinder can be unplugged
after it starts pulsing and it continues to work.
>
>> I continued testing the battery. It exhibited interesting behavior.
>> If it was allowed to sit after being charged, most of the regained
>> capacity was lost. This happened in as little a couple of days. More
>> pulsing would bring it back again. However, if the battery was either
>> float charged or used, the capacity remained constant.
>
>And if within a couple days I don't use the batteries, they go back to the
>'bad' state? That is not good.
Not really. Remember again that this battery was trash to start with.
Also remember that I haven't yet tested how the battery will behave if
the pulser is permanently connected and the battery is allowed to sit
by itself.
>But if you floated it or used it, it was fine, great! Did you actually use
>them or just float them and check them? If you used them, how long did you use
>them for?
I'm still using this battery in my shop as a 12 volt power supply. A
BatteryMinder stays connected at all times. It trickle charges the
battery as needed.
>
>> Further unquantified evidence of function is that the batteries in my
>> motorhome still retain essentially full capacity after 3 years with
>> the pulser in place continuously. Normally they'd be down to a little
>> more than half.
>
>I'm not sure what you are saying here... Are these the group 29 batteries you
>did the pulsing on? Or are they a different group/battery altogether. You also
>seem to say that these batteries in your motor home would normally be 'bad'
>after 1.5 years. Is that the case? That seems to imply that the normal
>maintenance, charging or whatever you use is inadequate. I would certainly
>think that a pack of deep discharge batteries would last longer than 1.5
>years, even in a motor home. My T-105's, 4 of them, last about 4 years in my
>5th wheel (check out www.ironandwood.org for the specs on my RV PV system)
Different batteries. I have two Group 29s in parallel to produce a
lower impedance power source. Important when running the 1500 watt
inverter at full power.
I didn't say the batteries only last 1.5 years. I said that the
batteries are normally down to a little more than half capacity in 3
years. That's not the same thing.
I made a deliberate decision to use these batteries in a manner that
some might call abusive. I routinely run them down to >80%dod. I
charge at either 80 amps with my Intellipower charger or 150 amps with
my CBC. I dry camp a lot so they may be run down and charged two or
more times on a weekend. I decided that the cost of the batteries is
insignificant enough that I could afford to abuse them in exchange for
more energy in a very limited space. I have a 24 ft MH (on my web
page) and there is no more room for batteries unless I fabricate some
sort of drop-down arrangement under the frame.
I have an E-meter in the MH so I keep close watch on the batteries.
The BatteryMinder has made the difference between it normally being
time to think about replacing the batteries and their still having
most of their capacity, 3 years out.
>
>Does each battery have a pulser? Or how many batteries can a pulser support?
Two batteries in parallel, one pulser. The BatteryTender is a quite
low powered device so I'd not try to draw wide sweeping conclusions
from its performance.
I plan on using my Citi as a testbed. I want to examine whether
waveform or rep rate makes any difference and/or how much. I want to
measure the performance with the rep rate near the battery's resonant
frequency vs the much lower rate of consumer pulsers. I want to
determine if short, high power sessions perform any differently than
continuous low power ones.
I have a 100 watt DC coupled power instrument amp that I used with a
sweep generator to find the resonant frequency of the Group 29. Just
as the paper describes, it had one, around 1 mhz. The dip is broad
but fairly deep. I did not set up to take quantitative measurement so
I can't provide any numbers.
>
>>>I would also think that since EV'ers spend upwards of $2000 for a set of
>>>flooded lead acids, and we are such 'spend thrifts' that we would have
>>>explored this way of 'rejuvenating' batteries if it was viable.
In the venerable words of Tonto, "What's this 'we' sh*t, white man?"
Many of "us" are already using pulsers. Besides, I don't see the
major value in trying to resurrect the dead but of maintaining
capacity and extending life.
>>
>> Oh, that's easy. a) EVers tend to be follow-the-leaders. Several
>> "experts" have declared desulfators to be "rubbish" without having
>> ever seen, used or apparently even read about them.
>
>Do you have an examples that you can site? Emails you can forward to me? Links
>to archived posts from a newsgroup? Who are these 'experts' you disbelieve?
Sure. Internet research is one of my commercial activities. Contact
me off-line and we'll get a contract and escrow in place and I'll go
to work. My rates are competitive. If you can't afford me then
you'll have to do that for yourself.
>
>> I'd rather experiment.
>
>Experimenting is fine, but if I use your experiments as an example you have
>already proven to me that desulfating batteries is an expensive and time
>consuming effort.
Actually I've done neither. Apparently misunderstanding the concept
and/or my work, you contrived an impractical, incorrect and certainly
suboptimal "example" and then declared it too expensive. That's the
follow-the-leader style. OTOH, engineers such as myself tend to ask
the question "how can I make this work economically" and then do it.
I strongly suspect that I can pulse my pack for less than the cost of
a single battery.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Electro Automotive wrote:
> If you are using the Curtis/PMC potbox microswitch as a deadman
> switch as it is intended to be used by the factory (opens the
> contactor every time you lift your foot from the throttle), the
> contactor is never opening under load in normal use. If you are
> talking about some kind of abnormal failure mode, one would hope
> you wouldn't be doing this more than once anyway.
The challenge is that if/when the controller fails fully "on", you are
depending on the contactor to break the circuit when you release the
throttle. Using the Albright SW200 with a 144v pack puts it well above
its rated voltage; thus, it may attempt to open, but weld. Now you
REALLY have an exciting problem!
If you're only going to have one contactor, it better be operating
safely inside its ratings!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Neon John wrote:
The BatteryMinder combines a trickle charger with a pulser but the
functions are separate. The kit pulsers that you're interested in
actually consume a little power. The BatteryMinder can be unplugged
after it starts pulsing and it continues to work.
So... if the "BatteryMinder" continues to pulse the batteries even after
it is unplugged from an AC outlet, then surely it also consumes power
from the batteries just as the "kit pulsers" do. Or did I miss something
here?
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> 525kW is 704HP, that's more than I would guess any 18-wheeler has ever
> had stock. Trains and subs already have very large electric drives, I
> really have no idea how much power they would put out.
Diesel engines are deceiving like that. For example, an engine might
"only" have 435 hp... but it's also got 1,550 ft-lb tq.. It's got
"power".. but it doesn't have any "performance".
http://www.kenworth.com/KenworthPowerSpec.pdf
Diesels have the same "problem" electric motors have. They are
advertised by their horsepower rating which is usually unimpressive
compared to their torque rating..
http://www.peterbilt.com/387Details.asp?model=model387
Why don't they advertise their tq instead of their hp instead? Or at
least advertise both.
Now on the other hand..
640,000 Watts (858hp?) is absolutely impressive...
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/index.html
I still have to wonder though, how much higher can it go? Can a 13"
motor take it all and then some? How much can an AC motor take when I
spin it upwards of 10,000 rpm?
-------
Here is how I currently envision the future: All cars and trucks:
electric. All trains, airplanes, ships, and semi trucks: alcohol or
bio diesel. They can all be easily converted to use other liquids.
Looking at how a semi truck is built and considering when it's loaded,
weighing in at ~80,000 lbs, it would drain it's battery pack in short
order. I can't envision a practical electric semi truck. At least
not taking an existing truck and converting it and expecting it to
still perform it's current tasks.
The reason I feel the cars and trucks will be electric is I don't see
how enough alcohol or bio diesel could be made to fuel everything.
Just not enough to go around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Battery de-sulfation
> Actually I've done neither. Apparently misunderstanding the concept
> and/or my work, you contrived an impractical, incorrect and certainly
> suboptimal "example" and then declared it too expensive. That's the
> follow-the-leader style. OTOH, engineers such as myself tend to ask
> the question "how can I make this work economically" and then do it.
> I strongly suspect that I can pulse my pack for less than the cost of
> a single battery.
>
> John
John,
I don't want to get into a pissing match about who does what better... or about
who has misunderstand what.
So I'll just leave this discussion with you saying that you haven't proved
anything to me about desulfating... all you have done is taken a 'trashed
battery', charged it by pulsing and gotten 70% of its orig value. And you
continue to keep it on a trickle for power. Nothing earthshaking about that...
nothing about desulfating either! You give no real numbers, just anecdotal
stories about doing this and that.
No offense but I am looking for numbers that are meaningful.
Take care.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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